: Performance mod recomendations



ChaosInc.
06-30-04, 10:27 PM
Ok boys and girls, im new to this form and im really glad i found it. Here is my million dollar question, lol.
Im lookin at building a car, specifically a 1980 Z28, the donar already has a 400BB inside with frame connectors and linelocks,(im going by rumor right now but im headed off to look at it this weekend, now with that said, my dad has a 76 fleetwood broughm, I hope i spelled it right. Anyway its got the 500TBI engine, and ive been reading that it has a TH400 factory. I wanna pull the engine obviously for the Z, I would like to be pushing 450-600+ HP from it. What mods would u recomend. I have access to a shop and my best friend(the instigator for this idea) is a licensed mechanic, he's got all the gear and is hyped to do it, but i wanna know roughly the cost this project is gonna create. I have a budget of $200 a week for this thing, so recomendations are really welcome. Also I wanna run a carbed setup, I need everyones help on this one, I was told that it would be easy to get the engine back to the early 70's HP, but the Z is heavy and i want it to haul.

Sorry for this being so long, but again thanks in advance.

illumina
07-01-04, 12:18 AM
Ok boys and girls, im new to this form and im really glad i found it. Here is my million dollar question, lol.
Im lookin at building a car, specifically a 1980 Z28, the donar already has a 400BB inside with frame connectors and linelocks,(im going by rumor right now but im headed off to look at it this weekend, now with that said, my dad has a 76 fleetwood broughm, I hope i spelled it right. Anyway its got the 500TBI engine, and ive been reading that it has a TH400 factory. I wanna pull the engine obviously for the Z, I would like to be pushing 450-600+ HP from it. What mods would u recomend. I have access to a shop and my best friend(the instigator for this idea) is a licensed mechanic, he's got all the gear and is hyped to do it, but i wanna know roughly the cost this project is gonna create. I have a budget of $200 a week for this thing, so recomendations are really welcome. Also I wanna run a carbed setup, I need everyones help on this one, I was told that it would be easy to get the engine back to the early 70's HP, but the Z is heavy and i want it to haul.

Sorry for this being so long, but again thanks in advance. give these guys a try, they have done a lot with these motors... http://www.500cid.com , dunno about prices, but i think they have a contact list you can check out. good luck with the project bro.illuminaP.

Ogier
07-01-04, 05:09 PM
I would like to be pushing 450-600+ HP from it. What mods would u recomend. I have access to a shop and my best friend(the instigator for this idea) is a licensed mechanic, he's got all the gear and is hyped to do it, but i wanna know roughly the cost this project is gonna create. I have a budget of $200 a week for this thing, so recomendations are really welcome.

A couple of thoughts come to mind.

1) Horsepower costs money. How fast do you want to go?

2) If your budget is only $200/week, it is going to take you a long time to get to the 450hp mark even if you do most of the work on your own.

3) Just because someone is a "Licensed mechanic" doesn't mean he/she know squat about building reliable horsepower. Race engines are a science in and of themselves.

4) Don't build for horsepower, build for torque. Horsepower is a human invention that has no way of direct measurement. It is a computation that has RPM, Torque, and many other factors involved.

With all that said, if you are going to go into the sub 600hp catagory, spend your money first and foremost in a reliable machine shop. This is one place where you get what you pay for most of the time. Have the following done:

1) Balanced
2) Blueprinted
3) Port, polish and cc the heads.
4) Talk to someone who actually knows something besides "bigger is better" for your carboration. Bigger is not usually better, it is usually worse.
5) Talk to someone who knows cam engineering. Again, bigger is not always better.
6) research, research, and more research. Someone has done what you want to do. Find out who and find out what they did right and wrong. This will save you lots of $$.

600hp is very doable with a single carb with the right setup. It will just take some time to get the info to make it work right. You need to have a very clear vision of where you are going before you get started.

But then, in my oppinion, anything under about 450hp is a stock engine.

Good luck. Please feel free to e-mail me if you have any questions and I will do my best to get you the right answers.

Ogier

Angela Desmond
07-01-04, 05:27 PM
I'll give you an idea of what my 425 caddy Hi-Po rebuld cost me, and you can figure pretty much the same for a 472 or 500.First off, when you said the car came with a 400 BB, I think you mean the 400 small block; basically a 350 with bores so big that they are siamesed together.(Which left no room for water jackets between bores and was an overheating problem). You'll already have more power just going to the 500 in the car; it was made to pull a much heavier vehicle.O.K...My machine shop work; .040 over boring, valve job,crank work, etc.) was about $1000.Parts: I used Eagle H-beam rods made for Olds, they cost about $650.Forged,dome top Ross pistons, 11:1 com.ratio were about$690. Comp Cams .565 lift cam about$190.Ford FE shaft rockers about$570...figure in edelbrock Performer manifold, Hi-Po water pump gaskets, oil pump, rings and everything else needed in a rebuild,(don't forget roller timing chain) we're talking about $3000. I rebuilt 2 used Q-Jets I had laying around myself, but the rebuild kits must have cost around $20. If you do your own port and chamber work, you'll be saving a ton of cash right there....In the end you'll have one hell of a power house for your hard earned dough..Oh; you may want to consider beefing up you're rear end too, once that torque monster is in there.I went with a Ford 9" P.S. I forgot to count in the headers; an easy 500 bucks if you buy BB Chevy headers and weld caddy flanges to them...( and the Chevy tranny bolt pattern adapter kit, motor mounts, HD driveshaft... :suspense: )

ChaosInc.
07-01-04, 09:18 PM
Thanks guys, thanks for the info, im still gonna check out the Z, like i said im going on rumor on that one, my friend(the mechanic) works in a small shop doin alot of engine stuff, planing, boring, port and polishing, the guy who runs the place said i could do a trade off for the work done to the engine, if put some time in around the shop doin stuff like brakes oil changes, head gaskets, things like that. Not bad for somethin i like doin. I was lookin to spend around 3grand for the engine and mods. I was thinkin the same thing about the 9in rear(bulletproof). BTW, anyone interested in some fleetwood parts, lol. Thanks guys, ill do as much research and question that i can. OHH yea, my bud and the owner finished two engines not too long agoe, one for a mustang, its dyno'd at 580 something HP(13,000 into the engine) and a 327 that pulled around 350 hp thats got a little over 1500 into it. The dyno is at a local school so i dont know how reliable it was.

Angela Desmond
07-02-04, 09:50 AM
You're very fortunate to get to work in this field as trade. Wish I could get in somewhere but few people trust female mechanics. Smart move to switch rears for the big Cad motor. I've destroyed 71/2" chevy rears with a only mild 350! Torque will be your big benefit with the big block AND you won't have to spin them as fast as those Chevy and Ford small blocks to get there. Plus you can use a higher rear end gear ratio (they actually like it!) and pull decent gas milage on the highway too. you don't need to spend as much money as I did to achive 500 ft.lbs. of torque with the 500 motor, but if you are looking for 650 HP you will have to spend considerable cash to have all your ducks lined up in a row to keep the engine from blowing at 6500RPMs. I do know someone that spins a 500 at those figures with the stock rocker arms in there and he has no problem with it. I went with the Ford rockers because it's a street vehicle and I do want to get over 50k on this engine before needing to tear it down again...Good Luck :thumbsup:

barge master
07-02-04, 09:46 PM
Angela, FYI that fuel injection set up is a good sellable item, they aren't that common. Also, if your cash flow runs low that Camaro would be one wild ride even stock with an Edelbrock intake. GOOD LUCK!!! :bouncy:

Angela Desmond
07-03-04, 09:21 PM
Thanks for the info BargeMaster, but Chaos is the one with the Camaro. I am running an Edelbrock, with a little massaging of the runners to keep up with my ports...

Lamborg1
07-05-04, 02:07 PM
Hello out there, I just joined this forum. I have a 72 Eldo 500 engine and transaxle I picked up. I want to put it together for use in a Diablo replica and all I'm looking for is to keep pretty much stock H/P and torque. I figure a Performer intake and a mild street cam. I've found sites that say 365 H/P and 500 ft/lb stock, is this right?? I hope so, with a couple mods like above 400 H/P and 510 ft/lb??????? Please say I'm correct or better I hope? Thanks tons.......

ChaosInc.
07-05-04, 07:37 PM
well, still havent gone to look at the z yet, guy is never home, hopefully will be thrusday, i havent been lookin too much at configurations or prices on parts, was lookin at he specs on the engine in the my dads car, man it sucks, is it true that the car only has like 190HP, i told him about it and he flat out denied that, said it wa imposible, hes got a 77 Chevy 1/2 ton in the garage, came stock with a 454 and a TH400, said the truck doesnt even compare to the caddys power. WTF. Should I get the casting #'s off the heads and find out what they are? Other side, guy with the z said it doesnt even need paint, with the line locks and the frame rails aready in it it sounds too good to be true, i was figuring that the tranny and rear end is probably FUBAR'd. but still worth $500 even if the the mechanical side of its shot. Ill keep u posted, once i start the project ill post some pics.

Ogier
07-05-04, 08:46 PM
Once again, Horsepower ratings are basically worthless. The concept of Horsepower is kind of like the concept of time. Both are constructs of the human mind that have little or nothing to do with the world of physics...

Yes, you could only have 190 horsepower. But, if you had say 400Ft/lbs torque, the car would still have a bunch of boogie in it's butt.

Look at torque specs. They are wayyyyyy more important.

just my .02c

:bighead:

Night Wolf
07-07-04, 03:03 PM
if you are worrying about hp, then yes, the 500 FI has 190... carb is 10 or 15 less....

even in mid-70's enviro-friendly, badly restricted condition, it produced 360ft lbs of torque.... THAT is what got the 3 ton car/people/gas/misc boat moving...

the stock, chocked 425 in my '79 has 180hp.... it shouldn't move as well as it does, or be able to leave rubber at will... but the 320ft lbs of torque help it out...

...same thing moves on to the newer engines, like the 4.9 in my '93... 200hp isn't much, and kids my age will laugh at it.... then if they challange me to a race, and I beat them not even trying, they don't understand what 275ft lbs of torque at 3000rpm means.... don't confuse that with beating on the car.... it is always good to clean out some carbon :D...same can be said with my '89 Olds... the series 1 3800 V6 is 165hp, but 220 ft lbs of torque.... not bad for a 15 year old family sedan car... that car also moves very good for what it is...

I think you should just leave the 500 in the Cad.... unless the car is really rotted out or something, why start hacking it up? it would also be cheaper to build a small block for the Z..... although nothing roars like a BB Caddy :D

ChaosInc.
07-07-04, 05:33 PM
ok, ok, lol, i get the torque thing. Thanks for all the help guys, the reason i dont build a smallblock for the z is because everyone and thier dog around here is smallbock, very rarely do u see or hear a big block, i like being different, bragging rights if nothing else, lol. Heading out tomorrow to take a look at the car, i might even be lookin at a different project if it takes a turn for the worse, but the 500 will still be in the mix.

davesdeville
07-07-04, 11:20 PM
if you are worrying about hp, then yes, the 500 FI has 190... carb is 10 or 15 less....

Not quite. A FI 500 was rated at 210, carb version was 190. And a stock spec refreshed 500 will put out more like 300hp. Torque will be over 450ft.lbs anyway.


Sell me the FI parts for cheap. :)

Night Wolf
07-08-04, 12:30 AM
Not quite. A FI 500 was rated at 210, carb version was 190. And a stock spec refreshed 500 will put out more like 300hp. Torque will be over 450ft.lbs anyway.


Sell me the FI parts for cheap. :)

ok, that's right... i got my numbers mixed up :)

BOSSHOGG3454
07-09-04, 01:07 AM
Ok boys and girls, im new to this form and im really glad i found it. Here is my million dollar question, lol.
Im lookin at building a car, specifically a 1980 Z28, the donar already has a 400BB inside with frame connectors and linelocks,(im going by rumor right now but im headed off to look at it this weekend, now with that said, my dad has a 76 fleetwood broughm, I hope i spelled it right. Anyway its got the 500TBI engine, and ive been reading that it has a TH400 factory. I wanna pull the engine obviously for the Z, I would like to be pushing 450-600+ HP from it. What mods would u recomend. I have access to a shop and my best friend(the instigator for this idea) is a licensed mechanic, he's got all the gear and is hyped to do it, but i wanna know roughly the cost this project is gonna create. I have a budget of $200 a week for this thing, so recomendations are really welcome. Also I wanna run a carbed setup, I need everyones help on this one, I was told that it would be easy to get the engine back to the early 70's HP, but the Z is heavy and i want it to haul.

Sorry for this being so long, but again thanks in advance.WHAT IS A 400BB IT'S A454 OR 396 OR402

Mystical_Ice
07-09-04, 01:11 AM
76 cadillac, eh?

i'd say the first thing you want to look at changing is compression ratio.

TorqueInc
07-17-04, 04:49 PM
a 9-1 500 with a decent set of heads and the right cam will make an honest 475 hp and put a full size car deep into the 12's

caddycarlo
07-27-04, 01:54 AM
Once again, Horsepower ratings are basically worthless. The concept of Horsepower is kind of like the concept of time. Both are constructs of the human mind that have little or nothing to do with the world of physics...


I disagree ...... it has everything to do with physics ......... hp shows work being done ....... or torque with rpm information in it ......... this allows you to look at the motor from the point of view of how much work can it do ......
torque is just a forse with no movement ...... if you have two motors that make 400 ft lbs but one does it at 3000 rpm and one does it at 6000 rpm if I go by what you said it would not matter which engine was put in the car ... but the motor that makes it at 3000 rpm has 228 hp and the one that makes it at 6000 rpm has 457 hp .............. this is why hp will tell you how fast a car will go but torque will not ..... it is pure physics

BranndonC
07-27-04, 03:38 PM
:confused:
a 9-1 500 with a decent set of heads and the right cam will make an honest 475 hp and put a full size car deep into the 12's
i tried PMing you, it didnt work
could you help me figure out what parts to buy to make the numbers you just stated? i have a 500 that i'm taking in for maching work, what should i have them do, and whats a decent set of heads and a good cam?
:hmm:

lux hauler
07-27-04, 03:58 PM
:confused:
i tried PMing you, it didnt work
could you help me figure out what parts to buy to make the numbers you just stated? i have a 500 that i'm taking in for maching work, what should i have them do, and whats a decent set of heads and a good cam?
:hmm:
torqueinc@zoominternet.net