: Will the ZR1 ceramic rotors swap in a V ?



Razorecko
01-20-09, 06:44 PM
Thats my question, if they both share the same brakes than wouldn't you be able to swap in the ceramic rotors from a ZR1 into a V ? I'm guessing you would also have to change the pads also since the compound would be different working on a ceramic rotor.

GM-4-LIFE
01-20-09, 07:02 PM
Thats my question, if they both share the same brakes than wouldn't you be able to swap in the ceramic rotors from a ZR1 into a V ? I'm guessing you would also have to change the pads also since the compound would be different working on a ceramic rotor.

I am guessing you could swap them from the ZR1 to the V, but what are the benefits?

I wonder how much the cost of the ZR1 setup is compared to the V.

I will ask my GM guy to get a list cost comparison.

SG

jvp
01-20-09, 07:10 PM
I am guessing you could swap them from the ZR1 to the V, but what are the benefits?


I don't expect you could swap them out at all, without also replacing the calipers. Further, the wheel offsets would (likely) be different, requiring different wheels.

And the question AERO asks is a good one: why? For the bling? For the "It's cool!" factor? Here's a neat tidbit of information that GM hasn't shared: the track rotors for the V, whenever they're ready, will outlast the ZR1's CC rotors for track use.

If you want to upgrade your car's brakes, wait for the track rotors to be available through SPO, and go that route. You'll save a LOT of money.


I wonder how much the cost of the ZR1 setup is compared to the V.


We already did a cost run-up of the parts for the ZR1 on the Corvette forum. Rotors, calipers, pads, et al, will run somewhere between 8-10K if I remember the numbers correctly. I might be off by a grand or two. It's significant.

jas

GM-4-LIFE
01-20-09, 07:39 PM
Ok, make sure you are sitting down when you read my post.

GM's list cost without any discounts on the 2009 ZR1 are as follows:

FRONT PADS: $775.00 EACH AXLE SET
REAR PADS: $575.00 EACH AXLE SET

FRONT ROTORS: $1695.00 EACH (YOU NEED TO ORDER 2)
REAR ROTORS: $1695.00 EACH (YOU NEED TO ORDER 2)

FRONT CALIPERS: $698.72 EACH (YOU NEED TO ORDER 2)
REAR CALIPERS: $527.81 EACH (YOU NEED TO ORDER 2)

Complete 2009 ZR1 Total Brake Price: $10,583.06

GM's list cost without any discounts on the 2009 CTS-V are as follows:

FRONT PADS: $379.00 EACH AXLE SET
REAR PADS: $143.00 EACH AXLE SET

FRONT ROTORS: PRICE NOT AVAILABLE FROM GM CURRENTLY
REAR ROTORS: $143.00 EACH (YOU NEED TO ORDER 2)

FRONT CALIPERS: $527.00 EACH (YOU NEED TO ORDER 2)
REAR CALIPERS: $354.00 EACH (YOU NEED TO ORDER 2)

ALMOST Complete 2009 CTS-V Total Brake Price Due To Lack of Front Rotors: $2570.00 figure total would be close to $3K.

WOW!!! What a difference in price between the two cars!!!

After hearing the shocking list prices on the ZR1 compared to the CTS-V brake set-up, I was more than happy that I have the CTS-V!!!!

I can get a good discount off of list, but even at my cost, the ZR1 setup is way too much money and definitely not worth the swap providing that the ZR1 setup will be a straight swap to the CTS-V and will clear the CTS-V wheels.

SG

poor-sha
01-20-09, 07:43 PM
^^^ and to pile on what jas said the CC brakes are nott designed to hold up to track use. When they get outside their temp range the rotors start to disintegrate. This has come from some of the GM folks I spoke to as well as the Brembo rep on Corvette Forum.

They'll last the life of the vehicle for street use (which might be a selling point on the V if you're not tracking it). I also wonder what the difference in unsprung weight would do to the calibration of the MR shocks.

Does anyone know if the ABS controller, master cylinder, wheel sensors, etc. are the same as the ZR1? What about the hub assemblies? I doubt it but someone might want to check.

dvandentop
01-20-09, 07:57 PM
a vendor on corvete forum will sell the zr1 setup for about 8k and some change, but then everyone gets into the debate for the programming of the brake controls in the ECU

GM-4-LIFE
01-20-09, 08:07 PM
a vendor on corvete forum will sell the zr1 setup for about 8k and some change, but then everyone gets into the debate for the programming of the brake controls in the ECU

With my GM parts account, I can get the entire set-up for under what the CF vendor is selling them for. I am almost positive that I can get the brake set-up at GM dealer cost which would be a good amount less than $8K. But let's be honest here, who is going to buy the entire ZR1 setup?

SG

poor-sha
01-20-09, 08:11 PM
a vendor on corvete forum will sell the zr1 setup for about 8k and some change, but then everyone gets into the debate for the programming of the brake controls in the ECU

I don't know who you could be referring to :D

wait4me
01-20-09, 08:12 PM
The carbon rotors dont wear down like a metal rotor. You need to replace them after they loose a set amount of mass.. "weight"
When you change your pads, you need to weigh the rotor to make sure it is within its limits still. If not it needs to be replaced.

The system on the Zr1 has a sensor on its caliper that monitors and counts the "life" left in it. Which is just an estimate based on its heat...

The brakes are meant to be abused.. Just look up the brake in instructions for the carbon ones. It is like 50 yes 50 0 to 60 mph stops at almost brake pedal to the floor each time really quick.

They are superior to our V brakes, they are ALOT lighter and have ALOT more clamping force/stopping power.

Worth the price? probably not. Wait 2 more years and the technology price will go down... That or ebay :D


As for ABS calibration, i dont see it being that far off from the V as the gain in brake torque wouldnt play with it that much.. Front to rear bias is still about the same.

jvp
01-20-09, 08:20 PM
They are superior to our V brakes, they are ALOT lighter and have ALOT more clamping force/stopping power.


Again, I think you're dabbling in areas of the car you know little to nothing about wait4me. Please do some research before posting, eh?

Yes, the rotors are significantly lighter. And, that will help with handling a bit, specially given it's rotating, unsprung mass. However, where you got the "have ALOT more clamping force/stopping power" is anyone's guess.

How'd you test this?

Can we see the results of said testing?

Properly built iron rotors (with good pads) will work just as well as CC rotors do. And probably last a lot longer. The main advantage of CC rotors is mass. And, if you're into it, bling. Remember in the end, the biggest contributor to good braking isn't the brakes. It's the 4 chunks of rubber touching the ground.

I'm in no way putting down the wonderful brakes on the ZR1. They are phenomenal. They're just too expensive for the performance you get, when lesser-expensive brake rotors will do a better job.

On a heavier car.

Imagine that one. :-)

jas

wait4me
01-20-09, 08:33 PM
As per wiki,
Ceramic composites
Ceramic discs are used occasionally in high-performance cars and heavy vehicles.

The first development of the modern ceramic brake was made by British Engineers working in the railway industry for TGV applications in 1988. The objective was to reduce weight, the number of brakes per axle, as well as provide stable friction from very high speeds and all temperatures. The result was a carbon fibre reinforced ceramic process which is now used in various forms for automotive, railway, and aircraft brake applications.

The requirement for a large section of ceramic composite material having very high heat tolerance and mechanical strength often relegates ceramic discs to exotic vehicles where the cost is not prohibitive to the application, and industrial use where the ceramic disc's light weight and low maintenance properties justify the cost relative to alternatives.

wait4me
01-20-09, 08:40 PM
This shows how heat effects the life, Note the 200 mile life on a formula 1 car,


Carbon fibre-reinforced Silicon Carbide (C/SiC) is a development of pure carbon-carbon, and can be used in automotive applications, such as components of brake systems on high performance road cars, namely the brake disc and brake pads.

C/SiC utilises silicon carbide with carbon fibre, and this compound has a huge advantage over pure carbon-carbon, namely durability. On a typical road car, the brake discs are claimed to have a quadrupled lifespan compared to the conventional grey cast iron (GG-20) discs, with an estimated potential duration of up to 300,000 kilometers or 185,000 miles - whereas pure carbon-carbon discs on a Formula One car may be completely worn out in as little as 200 miles.
Applications initially included the Porsche Carrera GT, and are standard fitment on the Bugatti Veyron and certain current Bentleys, Ferraris and Lamborghinis. They are also offered as an "optional upgrade" on certain high performance Audi cars, including the D3 S8, B7 RS4, C6 S6 and RS6, and the R8.

wait4me
01-20-09, 08:43 PM
As per gm


which offer a number of benefits over cast iron rotors:






- No fading

- Wet effectiveness

- No thermal deflection

- Consistent pedal travel

- No corrosion

- Increased rotor life

- No thermal cracks

- Reduction of mass

These brake rotors must be discarded when their mass (weight) drops below the acceptable minimum. Accurate measurement of the brake rotor mass is required to ensure safe operation and braking system performance.

IMPORTANT: The ceramic rotor cannot be machined.

The ZR1 ceramic brake rotors should be visually checked for damage and measured as well as weighed at every pad replacement. They should also be inspected any time potentially damaging materials or road hazards are encountered.

Tire cleaners and dressings should not be allowed to contact the rotors. Only soap and water or alcohol should be used for cleaning the rotors. Loose material can be removed with a stiff brush. The cross-drilled holes can be cleared by hand with a pin or drill bit that is no larger than 5 millimeters in diameter. Be careful to avoid chipping or damaging the rotor surface.

ROTOR PROTECTORS

Foam rotor covers (fig. 6) are included with each car to protect rotors during various service procedures. Dealers should acquire a set of their own for use when servicing the ZR1.



To prevent damage to the ceramic rotor, install a foam rotor protector before removing any wheel. Protectors can be installed through the spokes of the wheel.

IMPORTANT: Disc brake rotor protectors MUST be installed before tire and wheel assembly removal to avoid ceramic brake rotor damage due to contact between the tire and wheel assembly and the rotor. If the ceramic brake rotor is damaged, replacement may be required.

CHECKING ROTOR MASS

The rotors must be weighed before every pad replacement to confirm that the rotor mass is above the minimum (discard) weight embossed on the rotor. The rotor must be replaced if the mass is below the minimum weight.

TIP: The minimum mass is unique for each rotor.

Special tool CH-48897 (fig. 7) is a scale that accurately measures the mass of the brake rotor to determine its suitability for re-use. Before each measurement cycle, use the supplied calibrated weight to calibrate the scale.



There are 10 millimeter threaded holes in the rotor. If necessary, use bolts to slowly push the rotor off of the hub.

NEVER pry or use a hammer to remove the rotor.

Before weighing, remove loose material from the rotor and clear the cross drilled holes.
DO NOT use any liquids to clean the rotors before weighing. The rotors may absorb some
of the liquid, which could lead to inaccurate measurements.

INSPECTING ROTORS

Measurement -- In addition to weighing the rotors, they should also be measured. The minimum thickness must be measured in the swept area of the rotor. The minimum thickness is stamped on the rotor hub.

Chips -- The rotor must be inspected for damage. Measure chips along the rotor edge against the following criteria:

Maximum width/depth permitted
1mm

Maximum length permitted
10mm

Maximum quantity of damages permitted
3


Grooves -- If at any time the rotor has contacted the backing plate due to excessively worn pads, the rotor should be replaced.

BRAKE PADS

Brake pad inspection is required whenever tires are replaced. Replace pads when they are worn to 2 millimeters of remaining material. New brake pads are 10 millimeters thick.

The ZR1 has an electronic pad wear sensor system. When the pads are worn enough to activate a sensor, a CHANGE BRAKE PADS message is displayed on the Driver Information Center. Replacement sensors are included with new pads.

When replacing ZR1 brake pads, be sure to use brake pad spreaders to compress the caliper pistons into their bores. Using screwdrivers or other tools to compress the pistons can damage the ceramic rotors.

BRAKE BURNISHING

Ceramic rotors are more sensitive to the need for burnishing (bedding) the pads than cast iron rotors. Insufficient burnishing may result in reduced performance and reduced pad and disc life.

SPECIFICATIONS

Rotor discard weight
Discard weight indicated on rotor*

Rotor discard thickness
Front 35.5mm

Rear 33.5mm

Rotor maximum allowable assembled lateral runout
Front 0.80mm

Rear 0.80mm

Rotor maximum allowable scoring
Front 0.00mm

Rear 0.00mm

Rotor maximum allowable thickness variation
Front 0.20mm

Rear 0.20mm

Rotor thickness, new
Front 36mm

Rear 34mm


* Each brake rotor is marked with a unique discard weight. This weight is indicated on the carrier section of the rotor and can vary for each rotor in an axle set.

wait4me
01-20-09, 08:44 PM
And one last post. This is the proceedure to brake in the pads..

NOTICE: These procedures are specific to the ZR1 with ceramic brake rotors.
This procedure should not be run on other Corvette models as damage may result.

NOTICE: The new vehicle break-in period should be completed before performing the brake burnish procedure or damage may occur to the powertrain/engine.

When performed as instructed, these procedures will not damage the brakes. During the burnishing procedure, the brake pads will smoke and produce an odor. The braking force and pedal travel may increase. After the procedure is complete, the brake pads may appear white at the rotor contact.


A White appearance results from light street burnishing (fig. 17)



B White appearance results from heavier track burnishing (fig.18)



Street High Performance Brake Burnishing Procedure

Run this procedure in a safe manner and in compliance with all local and state ordinances/laws regarding motor vehicle operation. Run this procedure only on dry pavement.

1. From a stop, accelerate as rapidly as possible without activating traction control to a speed of 97 kph/60 mph.

2. Use enough pedal force to completely stop the vehicle in 4 to 5 seconds. If ABS activates, braking is too hard.

3. Repeat steps 1 and 2, 50 times. This should take about 10 minutes.

4. After completing the 50 stops, cool the brakes by driving for 8km/5miles at 97kph/60mph.

As with all high performance brake systems, some amount of brake squeal is normal.

Racing/Track Brake Burnish Procedure

To prepare the ZR1 brake system for track events and racing, complete the Street High Performance Brake Burnish as described above. Then, complete the following additional procedure to make the ZR1 brake system ready for track events and racing.

This procedure should be run only on a track and only on dry pavement.

NOTICE: Brake pedal fade will occur during this track burnish procedure and can cause brake pedal travel and force to increase. This could extend stopping distance until the brakes are fully burnished.

1. Drive a normal first lap and not too aggressive.

2. Laps 2 and 3 should be gradually driven faster and more aggressively, while allowing for reduced brake output and increased stopping distance due to brake fade.

3. Lap 4 as near to full speed as possible, while allowing for reduced brake output and increased stopping distance due to brake fade.

4. Laps 5 and 6 should be cool-down laps.

5. Lap 7 should be normal driving or an easy-out lap.

wait4me
01-20-09, 08:49 PM
I mess alot with brakes. Kind of a hobby, I even mess around with ordering custom compounds to test on the track with a guy that orders what i want.. I have a nasty set made for the first gen Vs...

gotapex
01-20-09, 08:56 PM
Yes, the rotors are significantly lighter. And, that will help with handling a bit, specially given it's rotating, unsprung mass. However, where you got the "have ALOT more clamping force/stopping power" is anyone's guess.

jas


I'm guessing the size difference will contribute to the braking effectiveness (clamping force, thermal capacity, fade resistance, etc).

ZR1: 15.5" (394mm) front, 15" (380mm) rear
CTS-V: 14.57" (370mm) front, 14.37" (365mm) rear

Both are 6-piston front, 4 piston rear, but the ZR1 ones have HUGE pads (148 sq inches front, more than double the pad size of the Z06).

wait4me
01-20-09, 08:59 PM
Exactly. The larger rotor increases brakeing torque. Also the larger pad/surface diameter being used helps with the clamping..

It clamps harder and remains at that level for alot longer before fading.

Ketzer
01-20-09, 10:01 PM
I agree with JVP, you just don't hardly even know what you're talking about... :histeric:

wait4me
01-20-09, 10:02 PM
:) Sorry. Ill keep to myself.

NormV
01-21-09, 09:41 AM
Jess makes a good point about the effect on heat and how it's absorbed. Most guys that track their cars, regardless of make, find the brakes system inadequacies and faults after a few track days. Brake system makdr for the street is not guaranteed for high speed use. Even in production based race car with upgraded brake system the driver has to manage brake life for the duration of the race.

The biggest improvement you can make is allow more air via ducts. Controlling the tempature is the goal to longevity. Once you have that under control tire management is the next weak link.

Norm

NormV
01-21-09, 11:06 AM
Hot pizza delivered by Andy Pilgrim!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skDCazS-cLU

Norm

nc09v2
01-21-09, 05:55 PM
Based on a few hundred breakin miles, I find the brakes on this car to be outstanding. I have tried a few hard stops to test them, and these brakes get the job done, right now.

I have not yet seen the real life track package brake upgrade, but would venture that those rotors will be even better.

I'm not sure a ZR1 brake upgrade, if feasible, would make sense unless the car was solely used for track days.