: Motor will be coming back out after HG job!



[NortHStaR]
01-19-09, 12:13 AM
So I finished my HG job yesterday, no leaks, coolant stayed at about 201 no quick spikes or anything.

Then I took it for a spin down to the store and on my way back I start hearing a REAL bad knock then it begins to ding *oil pressure low - stop engine* I pulled over cursed loudly then walked back to the house grabbed my car dolly and the silverado (i was not taking a chance on losing that motor!) and pulled the car back.

When I got back to my house and began poking around I realized that I was getting a little bit of pressure at the bottom end but none on the top end.

So I'm thinking its an oil pump, so it seems the motor will be coming back out :rant2:.

Anyone got any ideas of something else it may be that doesnt require pulling the motor again??

dkozloski
01-19-09, 12:44 AM
The oil pump is driven by being pinched by the crankshaft damper. The damper bolt must be very tight to drive the pump.

[NortHStaR]
01-19-09, 12:55 AM
Thanks for the reply koz, its late now but I will check the damper bolt in the morning.

I hope thats all it is!!!

VIPERRACING
01-19-09, 01:31 AM
The oil pump is driven by being pinched by the crankshaft damper. The damper bolt must be very tight to drive the pump.

Exactly what I was going to tell him. you really need to air ratchet it on and then back it out a little and then do the recommended tq sequence. I had the same problem but lucky enough mine was still on the lift. I torqued the dampener to the exact recommendations but it didn't pinch it on hard enough until I aired it on then re-torqued. You should have oil pressure after that. Good luck

[NortHStaR]
01-19-09, 02:00 AM
Thanks guys I'm beginning to feel better, I just bought a new compressor for my garage today so I guess I will get to try it out!

I'll post back tomarrow and tell you how it went..

Ranger
01-19-09, 02:12 AM
Did you torque that thing properly? I forget the torque setting but it is high. Get the correct torque setting and torque it properly. Don't just use an impact. Some won't have enough torque.

VIPERRACING
01-19-09, 03:00 AM
Did you torque that thing properly? I forget the torque setting but it is high. Get the correct torque setting and torque it properly. Don't just use an impact. Some won't have enough torque.

I originally torqued mine to factory specs using the degree wheel and that didnt work so I had to impact it on and re-torque and it worked perfectly. I did my entire motor in 2 days.

[NortHStaR]
01-19-09, 03:03 AM
My FSM is currently missing in action but I have been torquing everything to spec. but now that I'm thinking about it I cant remember hitting the damper with my torque wrench after sealing up the chain case.

We shall know the truth tomarrow, how often do you guys hear of these pumps going out??

dkozloski
01-19-09, 03:11 AM
;1739477']My FSM is currently missing in action but I have been torquing everything to spec. but now that I'm thinking about it I cant remember hitting the damper with my torque wrench after sealing up the chain case.

We shall know the truth tomarrow, how often do you guys hear of these pumps going out??
I don't recall anybody ever reporting a failure. By the way, if the engine developed a heavy knock the odds are pretty high that you burnt out a bearing. I hope not.

[NortHStaR]
01-19-09, 03:26 AM
It was only knocking for 2 or 3 mins, and from inside it was VERY faint when I got out it was only slightly louder so I don't think any major damage was done :hide:.

97EldoCoupe
01-19-09, 12:37 PM
Chacen, torque the hell out of that balancer bolt. When you think you have it to the correct torque spec, give it a bit more. I always clean the surfaces and spray WD40 on the inside of the balancer and on the crank, and the threads of the bolt- this eliminates some of the friction when installing the balancer.

You're very wise to stop the engine upon getting that low oil pressure message. Some people just don't get it - "Low oil pressure" means = STOP ENGINE, NOW.

One friend of mine said to me that his Windstar burned oil, so he would top it up when the oil pressure light came on. He said he kept doing that and never had a problem. His next words were "try doing that to a GM".:histeric:

tateos
01-19-09, 09:33 PM
The balancer has to be bottomed on oil pump on the crankshaft , I used the WD-40 just like Jake said, then torqued the bolt, then turned another 120 degrees. I was amazed at how little torque there seemed to be - I even loosened the bolt and retightened it, following the directions, but with the same result. That bolt was really, really hard to crack to remove it - so much so, I ruined the head, so I replaced the bolt with a new one from GM.

When I first started the engine after the HG job, there was a lot of noise on the top end - sounded like a diesel - but I always had enough oil pressure, and the noise went away after a few minutes. Your situation definitely sounds different - like you may have only partial engagement of the oil pump

97EldoCoupe
01-20-09, 01:25 AM
Yup - some N*'s will pressurize the lifters with oil after the first few seconds, and some take a while. There was one that took a 20 minute drive to eliminate all valvetrain noise. As long as it goes away, completely, that's all that matters.

One tip- to avoid rounding off the bolt head on the end of the crank- grind your 3/4 socket (19mm works too) down a ways because sockets usually have a recession at the end; some more than others. This gives a bit more hold on the bolt. Never use a 12pt socket, and don't even start with a cheap one. Cheap sockets are easy to replace but rounded off bolts are a whole other story. Believe me, I speak from experience. :banghead: Use a breaker bar to remove the bolt, not a ratchet.

The older 93-95 engines had a larger bolt head, I believe it was 15/16". For the amount of torque these bolts require, I wish they would have kept the bolt head that size.

tateos
01-20-09, 01:01 PM
Grinding down the socket is a good idea, Jake.

I had a hell of a time getting that bolt loose - ended up using an extra long breaker bar with a 4 foot pipe on the end of that! I regretted not using my old trick of placing the breaker bar against the floor or frame and letting the starter do all the hard work.

[NortHStaR]
01-21-09, 03:07 AM
So I torqued the HELL out of that bolt I think if I went anytighter I would twist the head off of the bolt, still no pressure exept to the bottom end...... So anyone know of a way to the pump without pulling the motor??? I highly doubt it it can be done but it is worth the ask....

97EldoCoupe
01-21-09, 03:39 AM
Have you verified oil pressure with a mechanical guage? That would be my first step. If you're getting good oil pressure than there's no sense blaming the oil pump, something else could have gone wrong. But what? My advice- pull the cam covers off and check the chain tension and crank the motor (with the ignition OFF) by hotwiring the starter. You will see if you're getting good oil pressure around the cams and lifters.

I feel your pain.... not much is worse than just installing an engine and then pulling it again soon.

Krashed989
01-21-09, 03:40 AM
I bet you could take that panel off without taking the engine out... You would just have to remove the belt and all the pulleys in the way.

Did you at least oil the camshaft lobes before putting it all back together? I use STP oil treatment to do that. It's thick, but it does a good job at lubing the parts when there's no oil pressure after a big job like that.

97EldoCoupe
01-21-09, 04:03 AM
I use STP oil treatment in my cars whenever I can- that stuff makes oil super slippery and sticks to metal parts pretty good. I don't believe much in any type of additives but that stuff I do believe in using.

dkozloski
01-22-09, 01:39 PM
Use GM EOS for assembly. STP and Andy Granitelli paid the largest consumer fraud fine in history, $660,000, to the FTC because STP was unable to verify any claim they made for the product. It's duck butter.

tateos
01-22-09, 07:26 PM
You DO have enough oil in the crankcase, right?

zonie77
01-23-09, 12:37 AM
Do you have pressure on the oil gauge but noisy valves?

If so the oil pump is working. The N*'s restrict oil to the top end and if the lifters drain down they take a while to pump up. 97Eldo quoted 20 minutes. One of the one's I did took about 5 minutes and it was pure hell to hear it rattling.

[NortHStaR]
01-23-09, 02:28 AM
Yes I do have enough oil in the case.

I have no oil pressure on the gauge as well as noises

Im prettty sure its the pump I just dont have the time right now to tear into the car again.

zonie77
01-23-09, 08:57 PM
I don't think it's the pump. If the bottom end has pressure the pump is working. I think oil lines are blocked.

[NortHStaR]
01-24-09, 01:41 AM
It just dawned on me that I used RTV to seal the halfcase I didnt use alot of it but could it have blocked anything?? would that start giving me this problem???

The only thing that makes me think that thats not it or its not blockage is that I got oil pressure for a good 45 minutes...

dkozloski
01-24-09, 01:45 AM
Sometimes the oil pressure relief valve gets something stuck in it. The fix is to overfill the engine with oil and give it a couple of RPM blasts to force it on out.

[NortHStaR]
01-24-09, 02:26 AM
Thanks for the reply koz, Ill try that out tomarrow, hope that works

jeffrsmith
01-24-09, 09:47 AM
;1744520']It just dawned on me that I used RTV to seal the halfcase I didnt use alot of it but could it have blocked anything?? would that start giving me this problem???

Possibly


;1744520']The only thing that makes me think that thats not it or its not blockage is that I got oil pressure for a good 45 minutes...

If you had too much RTV in an area and it came loose and found its way into one of the oil passages it still could be the RTV.

Have you retightened the crank bolt yet? Keep your fingers X'd that that fixes the problem and your worries are for naught.

97EldoCoupe
01-24-09, 11:12 AM
Northstar, did you use RTV on the oil manifold plate? I follow those RTV paths with a VERY thin layer of RTV- it's easy to get a bit too much on there; it can squeeze out into the oil passages. That is a very tricky area. Also the oil pump pick-up tube- this is going to sound like a dumb question, and I'm not doubting your abilities at all but everyone makes mistakes- even the pros- you tightened that tube down fairly well right? If it for any reason worked its way loose there could be the problem right there. If it sucks air it won't be pumping oil.

Ranger
01-24-09, 11:32 AM
;1744520']It just dawned on me that I used RTV to seal the halfcase I didnt use alot of it but could it have blocked anything?? would that start giving me this problem???

The only thing that makes me think that thats not it or its not blockage is that I got oil pressure for a good 45 minutes...
OH yeah. Just ask Chazglenn. I believe it was he who was having problems like this and when they opened the engine, they found RTV clogging the oil pick up. Someone did exactly what you did, but used too much.

pimpdaddycaddy91
02-07-09, 02:59 AM
Jake knows Im having this problem too. Engine back in, cranked it a few times to prime it then it started right up but immediately no oil pressure. I shut the engine down and checked the dipstick and the oil was all foamy air bubbles. I tried torquing the balancer bolt down twiced and still no pressure. I only had the engine running for about 30-40 seconds to start with and it sounded good with just a small clicking. the second time I started it for about 10 seconds it was getting louder and still low pressure warning, so shut it down again.

This was a few weeks ago and I havent had time to work on it but I want to get back on it this weekend. Is there any chance air could be trapped in the oil pump? I never had the case apart or the oil pan off, I just did the head gaskets on top but I did remove the oil pump in the process not realizing it didnt need to come off.

Any other ideas before I get back on it this weekend? I was going to pull the oil filter off and crank it and see if any oil moves on the bottom end and from there I was going to pull the oil pump if still no pressure.

97EldoCoupe
02-07-09, 10:13 AM
All I can think of is either the sleeve is missing that passes through the oil pump, or the oil pump is sucking air somewhere. Start with the basics and hopefully the engine won't have to come out again. That would really, really suck.

One more thing: Do both of you, Northstar and Pimpdaddycaddy, remember re-installing the bolt that goes on the end of the intermediate sprocket shaft? This is directly inline with the crankshaft just above the oil pump, it supports the 3-row sprocket assembly. That bolt hole will cause a severe lack of oil pressure if that bolt has been left out for any reason, because a very large amount of the oil will be flowing out the end of that shaft instead of getting to where it needs to be.

[NortHStaR]
02-11-09, 03:58 AM
Well I have not had that much time to work on the deville but I should be getting back to it tomarrow, I have found out that by removing the passenger side tire and the plastic inner fender I can get to the damper bolt as well as the timing case bolts so I dont have to pull the motor (:highfive:)

I ordered all new timing chain guides and tensioners just as a preventative repair (the chains sounded pretty sloppy even when I was getting oil pressure)

I will check the bolt you are talking about Jake thanks for the heads up, I'm begining to lean towards the oil pressure relief valve.

As always I will post back with results, and thank you all for your help! :bouncy: