: Built Buick Lucerne (400HP Northstar Engine)



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Dr. Design
01-14-09, 10:13 PM
Hello,
We thought it would be cool to share with all of you one of our latest builds for a good customer of ours. This is a Buick Lucerne with a Northstar 4.6 Engine. The customer wanted something more than what the stock engine offered. He decided he wanted an all motor combination with wheels, tires, brakes, cams, heads, headers, exhaust system, tint, and a body kit. This is the end result.

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r134/ctd3rnd/RR_BuickFade_D3copy.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r134/ctd3rnd/RR_Buick_D3copy.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r134/ctd3rnd/_MG_1818.jpg


<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/uR21FIbNSBU&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/uR21FIbNSBU&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Please let us know if there are any questions.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac

97EldoCoupe
01-14-09, 10:22 PM
What mods other than the exhaust brought the 320HP N* up to 400?

Submariner409
01-15-09, 08:42 AM
Engine pics, out of the car, in the car, before and after. Late Cadillac Northstar PCM or aftermarket standalone management ??


:postpics:

97EldoCoupe
01-15-09, 09:34 AM
:yeah:

The Tony Show
01-15-09, 10:02 AM
Cool looking car.

(and it's "Proxes", btw ;))

AJxtcman
01-15-09, 07:12 PM
That uses a stock PCM that has been tunable for years.

You all are stuck on something that is NOT!

HPTuner offers NORTHSTAR tuning for 06+ and 96 to 99 running the LS1 PCM.
Yes they offer it also.

96Fleetwood
01-16-09, 07:37 AM
Now that is a Lucerne I would drive!

Ur7x
01-16-09, 11:13 AM
Engine pics, out of the car, in the car, before and after. Late Cadillac Northstar PCM or aftermarket standalone management ??


:postpics:

A big X2 it looks like a Blue Haired Buick with an open exhaust and ricer wheels... Without a dyno sheet or a quarter mile run or at least a picture of what was done to the car... It generates more questions then answers.

97EldoCoupe
01-16-09, 01:03 PM
D3- you advertise yourself as a company that can do more with the Northstar than anyone else around.

LETS SEE SOME PICS / DYNO SPECS / ENGINE SHOTS

Dr. Design
01-21-09, 01:06 PM
Hello,
I will have to see if we took any pictures of the motor by itself when it was torn apart. As for the tuning, we tuned the factory computer.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac


Engine pics, out of the car, in the car, before and after. Late Cadillac Northstar PCM or aftermarket standalone management ??


:postpics:

Submariner409
01-21-09, 02:29 PM
Very simple: Open the hood and take 3 - 4 pictures. Post them and the 400 hp dyno sheets. You tuned the factory PCM ? This is something that has not been done to a post-2000 4.6 N* PCM. (or did you install a 10 year old ECM controlled engine in a 2008 car ?)

If your people didn't snap a slew of digital pics of a "400 hp" Northstar buildup, where's your base of reference for subsequent work ? Oh, did you use head bolts or did you stud the block ? ......and, if you used bolts, what gaskets did you install ?

Submariner409
01-21-09, 04:14 PM
Buick Lucerne.....Is this critter FWD or RWD, and if RWD, what year Northstar is in the beast with what transmisson....?

If we're talking FWD and RWD engines in the same forum, maybe it's time to split into 2 categories of Northstar.

Ur7x
01-21-09, 05:15 PM
Buick Lucerne.....Is this critter FWD or RWD, and if RWD, what year Northstar is in the beast with what transmisson....?

If we're talking FWD and RWD engines in the same forum, maybe it's time to split into 2 categories of Northstar.

The Buick Lucerne is exactly the same platform as a 1998-04 Seville... GM just took the Caddy Platform, reskinned it and called it a Buick...

If D3 has a custom exhaust/header for this car, I hope they kept the jig...It will fit our cars PERFECTLY.

This car has a 2004+ Northstar which has the longer and coarser LS1 style headbolt that don't seem to fail (in either the North* or the LS1)

But you would think if this car is all that "big and bad" we would have cam specs, head flow specs, exhaust specs...

All we know for sure is that D3 makes great body kits and sell "nice" wheels....

Superjim
01-21-09, 09:48 PM
You tuned the factory PCM ? This is something that has not been done to a post-2000 4.6 N* PCM.


My 2006 DTS N* has been tuned in person by Justin at....

http://www.blackbearperformance.com/

Texas Jim

Dr. Design
01-21-09, 10:04 PM
Sorry guys...There really wasnt anything to see underneath the hood. Most of it looked stock (per the customer). The cool stuff was on the inside of the engine. The ECU was tuned by us at D3 without any issues.

As mentioned before by another member here, the vehicle is FWD built on the DTS platform. The vehicle is not rated at the same HP as the DTS so our starting point was much lower.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac

Ur7x
01-22-09, 12:20 AM
Could you at least tease us some more with some cam specs?
What did you do to the heads?

Are there any answers? Or just questions.

NorthStarGXP
01-22-09, 09:20 AM
Until such time as specifics are provided regarding the engine modifications, I have to conclude that this car has a tune and aftermarket exhaust, nothing more.

Ur7x
01-22-09, 10:54 AM
Until such time as specifics are provided regarding the engine modifications, I have to conclude that this car has a tune and aftermarket exhaust, nothing more.

On the contrary!
It is so much more... It has a body kit and ricer wheels too!

AJxtcman
01-22-09, 07:12 PM
Very simple: Open the hood and take 3 - 4 pictures. Post them and the 400 hp dyno sheets. You tuned the factory PCM ? This is something that has not been done to a post-2000 4.6 N* PCM. (or did you install a 10 year old ECM controlled engine in a 2008 car ?)

If your people didn't snap a slew of digital pics of a "400 hp" Northstar buildup, where's your base of reference for subsequent work ? Oh, did you use head bolts or did you stud the block ? ......and, if you used bolts, what gaskets did you install ?

You don't listen!

I have been telling you for over a year that the 06+ PCM has been WFO for tuning!

I can tune 96 to 03 PCM's. I looked at the 04 and 05 cals and decided to wait.

My Fiero has a stock 99 PCM in it currently so I could log some Data. I turned off the PassKey. Oh wait that would be tuning now wouldn't it? I even left in 2nd gear starts.

If I have just 1 spark table figured out and I can adjust it. That is tuning!

I think D3 can attest to the Trans tuning can do to the car.

C0RSA1R
01-22-09, 11:41 PM
Until such time as specifics are provided regarding the engine modifications, I have to conclude that this car has a tune and aftermarket exhaust, nothing more.

Even as a newbie, I agree. As far as I've been able to tell, only AJ and 97Eldo have done any truly significant N* mods - AJ with his flash PCM tuning, and 97Eldo with his miracle cylinder head stud kits. With AJ it was a 1,000+ post learning process, and with 97Eldo it probably involved some dirty, greasy hands and a whole bunch of trial and error. As someone wiser than myself has said, "GM has already grabbed all the low-hanging fruit when it comes to making the N* perform." Meaning thus, it took time, bleeding knuckles, and sweat for even the best of us to reach higher. I mean, 97Eldo's first studded block post was from late October 2008. He may have worked on that idea for months, or years (the end result is superb, but everything involves some trial and error) before finally posting his achievement for all to see.

All totally worth it of course, and after a trip to scenic London, Ontario, I may find myself on the market for an AJ tune. :rockon:

But to just show up and quickflash that you've managed to tune a N*, stuff it into a Lucerne, add all this customization and *BOOM*, crank out 400hp . . . skepticism isn't just for UFO's and Oliver Stone movies.

97EldoCoupe
01-23-09, 12:37 AM
Thank you Corsa1R. I think the guys at CHRFAB deserve way more credit though, but it would be nice to see them doing engines for our cars rather than just sandrails.

D3 has it going for them. They have a flashy site, some nice photos of their work, some nice products, but what's missing is the actual specs of the car- photos are worth a thousand words, nothing more. I don't doubt that they may have pulled 400HP from that engine, but if they're so worried about AJ and I taking some of their trade secrets that they can't even post a dyno sheet, I'm not sold AT ALL.

I'm working on a plan to get 475hp out of a Northstar, because it would be cool- and I believe it's possible with a lot of funding and research, trial and error. But I won't claim that I can do it, or have done it, until I have the videos, photos of the engine, and dyno sheets to prove it. I've spoken to a shop about 2 hours away from me that says they will dyno the engine for me once I get it done. And even then, that 475hp N* won't be naturally aspirated. 400HP out of the stock Lucerne won't come from a few easy mods. Not even headers /free flowing exhaust. CHRFAB's getting 375HP with different cams and a port and polish job, I'm sure with headers as well- on the 93-99 10.3:1 compression engine. And have you looked at how restrictive the exhaust runners are on a 2000+FWD Northstar engine? Although the intake is opened up more. Compression is lower on the 00-03, no too sure about the Lucerne.

Come on D3, I'm not fully doubting your claims. Let's hear and see what you've really done to that Buick.

AJxtcman
01-23-09, 08:20 AM
adding 100hp hmm.
No problem if you think about it. I have been saying I added 50hp to Berts car by doing the math.

Take a look at one of these article and 100hp should be no problem.
#2 is the one you want to read.

Piston Engine Technology (http://www.monodax.com/forums/off-topic/1713-piston-engine-technology.html)

Link to #2 Convertering Fuel into HP (http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/thermal_efficiency.htm)

I wish I could afford to take this course that is coming up.
http://epdfiles.engr.wisc.edu/pdf_web_files/epd/K549.pdf

planocolt
01-23-09, 01:40 PM
:bulging: $1500 yow!

Dr. Design
01-23-09, 02:23 PM
Sorry guys, we arent into show and tell on custom builds. As most of you already know, we dont usually build Buicks, but we took care of a special customer and his request. Obviously we had to get into the engine to make the power. We certainly did upgrade the internals and added in some goodies, custom cams, rods, pistons, cylinder head work, headers w/high flow cats, ECU tuning, exhaust system, plus a few other items.

Thanks,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac

Submariner409
01-23-09, 03:58 PM
Bullshit.

97EldoCoupe
01-23-09, 03:59 PM
Much better. At least we got a bit of information now. It's not too bad looking at all- are you going to offer kits for the Lucerne?

Dr. Design
01-23-09, 05:41 PM
At this time we do not have any intentions of offering kits for the Lucerne application. It was really the byproduct of a special project we did with GM for the SEMA Show....Every now and then, we will build a special project that will typically yield some interesting vehicle builds. This happened to be one of them. We also did a Saturn Sky a couple of years ago with a built motor and a custom supercharger.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac


Much better. At least we got a bit of information now. It's not too bad looking at all- are you going to offer kits for the Lucerne?

Ur7x
01-24-09, 01:09 AM
Bullshit.

Yup this is ALL :bsflag:

I knew girls like D3 in high school...
We called them cockteases.:thumbdown:

Don't post crap like this unless you are going to put out.

Even AJ tried to prove his tune... You guys just basically say "trust me"... Then when it becomes clear that you have just pissed off everyone we get "we don't discuss custom projects"...
Then why post pictures and ask "Please let us know if there are any questions"?

PS I think you miss read EldoCoups post... When he said "Much better. At least we got a bit of information now" I think he was being sarcastic. You told us NOTHING there was no "bit of information"

97EldoCoupe
01-24-09, 02:56 AM
I was being sarcastic. D3 didn't give us any information at all. Do they custom grind cams or do they get them from CHRFAB? Has anyone seen pics of the headers? What about the crossover? This statement says it all:


We certainly did upgrade the internals and added in some goodies, custom cams, rods, pistons, cylinder head work, headers w/high flow cats, ECU tuning, exhaust system, plus a few other items.

Headers with high flow cats? That means what, that it has true duals? And every car has "exhaust system"- what's so special about the Lucerne's? The rods won`t do anything unless they needed to be upgraded to handle the additional power or RPMs.

97EldoCoupe
01-24-09, 02:57 AM
I sort of like the styling but the wheels look too much like what you`d see on a Honda of some type. But without the performance under the hood to back it up, the body upgrades are just false advertising.

AJxtcman
01-24-09, 11:16 AM
Is this 400 Crank HP or Wheel HP?:hmm:

urbanski
01-24-09, 01:34 PM
without a dyno chart, you could say anything

Ur7x
01-24-09, 01:42 PM
Is this 400 Crank HP or Wheel HP?:hmm:

We will never know 'cause


We don't discuss custom projects.:canttalk:

NorthStarGXP
01-24-09, 01:58 PM
Dr. Design, if this is not a "show and tell", then why are you showing and telling with pictures, engine rev videos (I can make one of those too), horsepower claims right at the top of the post, telling us what kind of tires the car has among other things, and then asking if anyone has any questions?

It is very easy to build a 400hp Northstar on the Internet, but it's quite something else to actually do it. For example, I have a 2005 Pontiac Bonneville GXP with Toyo Proxy 4 tires and 450 horsepower.

See, that was easy. With a few key strokes, I have 450 internet horsepower.

Ur7x
01-24-09, 03:13 PM
It is very easy to build a 400hp Northstar on the Internet, but it's quite something else to actually do it. For example, I have a 2005 Pontiac Bonneville GXP with Toyo Proxy 4 tires and 450 horsepower.

See, that was easy. With a few key strokes, I have 450 internet horsepower.

Ohh! wow.. any specs on your PCM or Cams? Open exhaust?

I bet if you add some more D3 "goodies" (who talks like that :helpless:) you could get to 475 maybe even 500...

Is that at the flywheel or at the tires? ;)

dkozloski
01-24-09, 03:18 PM
Several years ago there was a guy on the forum describing some work he had been doing on his NorthStar. He'd done some valve and port work and had some custom made cams. The difference was that he had some cred. He had been a NASCAR engine builder for years and had built the engine that Buddy Baker used to win the World 600 at Charlotte, N.C. in the early 70s. The guys name was L.J. Klaiber and he was well known throughout the NASCAR fraternity. The last time he posted on the forum was a couple of years ago and he was in poor health then. His login was ljklaiber and a forum search for some of his posts would be well worth your time. He built NASCAR engines back when it was an embarrassment if your car wasn't turning 200MPH laps at Daytona and Talladega. Consider how much horsepower it took to push one of those old 2 1/2 ton unaerodynamic monsters with a built-in head wind 200MPH around anykind of closed course. If he said his NorthStar was making good power I'd be inclined to believe him.

AJxtcman
01-24-09, 04:34 PM
without a dyno chart, you could say anything

Dyno charts mean very little! This is from a former employer.


For over 35 years, we have been developing and building winning engines in major segments of racing, including NASCAR, Pacific Northwest Circle Track racing, NHRA Drags (several national records and titles), Sprinters, Modifieds, Road Racing and APBA Hydroplanes.

Unlike many engine builders, our dynos are calibrated for reality, not to produce impressive but fictional numbers. Our engines consistently outperform those from other builders, both on the track and on OUR dynos.



At Nutter Racing Engines, we have a long history of developing and building winning race engines for a wide range of applications. We don't provide "crate engines"; we are a custom engine builder.

In addition to winning race engines, we also build top-class street engines, ranging from the big V8's to immensely-powerful turbocharged DOHC 1.8-liter inline-4 cylinder engines.

We use our knowledge about engines, over 35 years of winning experience, state-of-the-art engine machinery along with our associations with pre-eminent cam designers, cylinder-head designers and specialty equipment manufacturers, to produce dominating race engines, year after year. Our dynos are calibrated to reality, not to produce fictional numbers. Our engines consistently outperform those from other builders, both on the track and on OUR dynos.

Our suite of leading-edge machinery includes: two SuperFlow dynos with computerized data recording, a computerized SuperFlow airflow bench for cylinder head development, a 5-axis CNC cylinder head porting system, the most accurate valve guide, valve seat, engine block and connecting rod preparation machinery, the finest surfacing, honing, and engine balancing equipment, and more.

Ur7x
01-24-09, 07:21 PM
Dyno charts mean very little! This is from a former employer.

It depends... A Chassis Dynos needs a "control sample" to determine validity... A "before" and an "after" run. As you point out the final number the car makes means very little on its own...

BUT if you know the before number AND the after number now you know EXACTLY what you have gained... And that means a lot.

On the other hand, engine Dynos are calibrated instruments and they should be accurate to within a percent or two of the final number.
I would expect a company like D3 to have access to a engine Dyno...
And be able to DOCUMENT flywheel HP...

If they can't, then D3 is just blowing smoke...
And MAN it is smokey in here!
:bsmeter:

Submariner409
01-24-09, 08:29 PM
:rant2:AJ, With all due respect to the GM Technician in you, your last post has absolutely NOTHING to do with D3/Dr.Design/Fire&Ice' claim of "400 HP" from a "built Buick Lucerne".

You start any modification work with the factory or baseline dyno pulls, either engine or chassis, do your mod work, and the following set of dyno pulls tells you where to either go back and try again or scream "YAHOO!!!". Butt dyno is for fart cans and spoilers on Honda Civics. Dashboard dyno douchebag computers and magic boxes are a half-assed wild guess. You and others are selling horsepower gains and modifications for daily driver street cars. We know full well that if price were no object we could put a RWD Allison V-12 in a Seville. BUT, this is a Cadillac sedan/coupe maintenance/performance thread for the mean average of car nuts. NOT Fiero drivers, Not sand rail drivers, NOT some magic spectral wealthy Buick driver that wants a one-off "Look what I got...".

Every legitimate aftermarket performance parts manufacturer is only too glad to post pictures, brochures, specs, catalog prices, build tips, whatever for the general wrencher public. Nothing is secret or magic. You call or e-mail Comp Cams and they tell you whether you are in a pipe dream or close to reality. They'll also tell you what goodies to install or leave out as part of the package. "He said, she said" doesn't cut it anymore, especially when a tad of work on the Internet can make fools of us all......................

Hogg
01-24-09, 10:56 PM
Is it really such a stretch to add 80hp to a 320hp engine, through cams, headwork and PCM tuning? This IS a tuneable PCM correct, via HPTuners correct.

I can understand why guys are upset for being teased without backup. But isnt 400 hp attainable with Cams, headers/exhaust, headwork?

Or am I missing something?

peace
Hog

97EldoCoupe
01-24-09, 11:00 PM
I think so, I really do, but the fact of the matter is they don't seem to make an effort to prove what they've done to it. Pics or specs or dyno charts is what we're all asking for and not getting.

97EldoCoupe
01-24-09, 11:04 PM
Sub that's exactly right. If D3 wants to sell their services and products, then SHOW us what you have to offer. As a previous poster said: "I have ocean front property in Arizona that I can sell you" "but you can't see it right now, because...."

dkozloski
01-24-09, 11:57 PM
D3 has been more BS than anything else since they hit the forum. I'm thinking that they'd lie if the truth wouid do them more good.

Ur7x
01-25-09, 12:15 AM
Is it really such a stretch to add 80hp to a 320hp engine, through cams, headwork and PCM tuning? This IS a tuneable PCM correct, via HPTuners correct.

I can understand why guys are upset for being teased without backup. But isnt 400 hp attainable with Cams, headers/exhaust, headwork?

Or am I missing something?

peace
Hog

The first thing you are missing is they started with a 275HP motor so it is NOT 80 it is 125. (a 45% increase)..

The next thing you are missing is the northstar is a relatively small engine (about 280 cid) making 1 HP per cid in a streetable V8 is impressive enough... now you are making 1.5HP per cid...

Thats like a 500HP SBC 350... do those exist? sure... Can you drive one on the street behind an automatic in a 4000 pound car? Not likely.

The fact that D3 refuses to release Cam duration specs is THE red flag..
If we know the cam duration specs we can tell within a fairly tight window the max RPM window of the motor and an expected "max HP" number... D3 knows this.

The fact that they are keeping this secret means one of
a) they are stock cams or
b) they aren't near big enough to make the power claims.

I'm betting "a". Why? well if they had custom ground cams that would make a streetable 1.5 HP per cid those would be a really hot commodity and people would actually buy those...

97EldoCoupe
01-25-09, 12:24 AM
And they`d be able to market and sell them for big bucks, which is what they`d do, if they actually existed....

Hogg
01-25-09, 12:36 AM
Several years ago there was a guy on the forum describing some work he had been doing on his NorthStar. He'd done some valve and port work and had some custom made cams. The difference was that he had some cred. He had been a NASCAR engine builder for years and had built the engine that Buddy Baker used to win the World 600 at Charlotte, N.C. in the early 70s. The guys name was L.J. Klaiber and he was well known throughout the NASCAR fraternity. The last time he posted on the forum was a couple of years ago and he was in poor health then. His login was ljklaiber and a forum search for some of his posts would be well worth your time. He built NASCAR engines back when it was an embarrassment if your car wasn't turning 200MPH laps at Daytona and Talladega. Consider how much horsepower it took to push one of those old 2 1/2 ton unaerodynamic monsters with a built-in head wind 200MPH around anykind of closed course. If he said his NorthStar was making good power I'd be inclined to believe him.

unfortunatley I cant seem to view any of ljklaiber posts. I visited his username on this site and couldnt access anything.

Would have been some interesting reading.

peace
Hog

Hogg
01-25-09, 12:56 AM
Ahh, the 08 Lucerne is 275 hp , not 320, then in 2009 its only available with 292hp.


the idle seems kinda high for stock cams. Why would they raise the idle with a stock cam?

In any case I doubt its 400 SAE certfied hp. But I dont see it being a huge strech to be able to get a 4.6 Northstar to read 400hp by some using some other hp measurement.

Even a 255 hp SAE net(not certified) 96-02 L31 Vortec 350 will dyno at 310 gross hp. So usingthis info, my 300 saehp (not certified) Northstar "could" actually dyno at 365 gross hp.

My point here is that not everyone is completly forthcoming with how they actually measure power. When money and marketing comes into play, sometimes complete honesty goes out the window.

They could have dynoed this car at 300 at the wheels and came up with some crazy marketing ploy that makes this a legit 400hp car "in their eyes".

Maybe there's a bottle in the trunk?

Nice looking car nonetheless.

peace
Hog

dkozloski
01-25-09, 01:04 AM
unfortunatley I cant seem to view any of ljklaiber posts. I visited his username on this site and couldnt access anything.

Would have been some interesting reading.

peace
Hog
I just did a search on all posts by ljklaiber and I got all kinds of stuff.

Hogg
01-25-09, 01:09 AM
I just did a search on all posts by ljklaiber and I got all kinds of stuff.

Ahhh cool, I went to the memberlist. Yes, the search brings up lots of info.

Thanks.

peace
Hog

Submariner409
01-25-09, 03:22 PM
Just spent a while searching the 2008 SEMA picture site, looking for Buick Lucernes and some aftermarket parts companies of interest. As of 3:20 EST, no luck. Lots of nice mods and other cars, though.......:lildevil:

AJxtcman
01-25-09, 06:11 PM
:rant2:AJ, With all due respect to the GM Technician in you, your last post has absolutely NOTHING to do with D3/Dr.Design/Fire&Ice' claim of "400 HP" from a "built Buick Lucerne".

You start any modification work with the factory or baseline dyno pulls, either engine or chassis, do your mod work, and the following set of dyno pulls tells you where to either go back and try again or scream "YAHOO!!!". Butt dyno is for fart cans and spoilers on Honda Civics. Dashboard dyno douchebag computers and magic boxes are a half-assed wild guess. You and others are selling horsepower gains and modifications for daily driver street cars. We know full well that if price were no object we could put a RWD Allison V-12 in a Seville. BUT, this is a Cadillac sedan/coupe maintenance/performance thread for the mean average of car nuts. NOT Fiero drivers, Not sand rail drivers, NOT some magic spectral wealthy Buick driver that wants a one-off "Look what I got...".

Every legitimate aftermarket performance parts manufacturer is only too glad to post pictures, brochures, specs, catalog prices, build tips, whatever for the general wrencher public. Nothing is secret or magic. You call or e-mail Comp Cams and they tell you whether you are in a pipe dream or close to reality. They'll also tell you what goodies to install or leave out as part of the package. "He said, she said" doesn't cut it anymore, especially when a tad of work on the Internet can make fools of us all......................

I have 4 Comp Cams for a Northstar next to me now. :hmm:
I understand your point.
I think they could make 400hp on a dyno with a Stock Vega. That was my point about the dyno.


It depends... A Chassis Dynos needs a "control sample" to determine validity... A "before" and an "after" run. As you point out the final number the car makes means very little on its own...

BUT if you know the before number AND the after number now you know EXACTLY what you have gained... And that means a lot.

On the other hand, engine Dynos are calibrated instruments and they should be accurate to within a percent or two of the final number.
I would expect a company like D3 to have access to a engine Dyno...
And be able to DOCUMENT flywheel HP...

If they can't, then D3 is just blowing smoke...
And MAN it is smokey in here!
:bsmeter:

You are correct Before and After would make 100% sence. Thank you.

Ur7x
01-26-09, 09:42 AM
Just spent a while searching the 2008 SEMA picture site, looking for Buick Lucernes and some aftermarket parts companies of interest. As of 3:20 EST, no luck. Lots of nice mods and other cars, though.......:lildevil:

You're not saying that D3 is making sh!t up are you ;)

Dr. Design
01-26-09, 08:31 PM
Try looking up 2006 SEMA Show.. :thumbsup:
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r134/ctd3rnd/lucerne-page.jpg

Our intention wasnt to come in this forum to stir up a bunch of stuff. We just wanted to share, what we thought, was a pretty interesting build. Some of you are asking for more information than we are willing to give out. I guess next time we wont bring our toys to show and tell.... =)

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac

Ur7x
01-26-09, 10:20 PM
The Sema car had a "unproven" 325 HP...
These are two different cars.

I like your idea of only posting when you want to discuss your products, you have documented something, or you actually have something to sell...

We all when through this cocktease BS with the headers thread..

You post "who wants headers?"

Everyone gets all excited and then you post..
"Oh we'll only make them based on deposits with no delivery promises and no performance guarantees" And "We have no idea what they will look like where we will route them and how they will work." But "You will love them"

With this car... if it really has headers... you have a chance to say...

"Look guys, here is how they work, here is how they look, and here is what they cost..." Maybe you sell a few, maybe you don't... Its called marketing...

You'd think with the economy going into the crapper and GM canceling all of the cars that you currently work on (the XLR got axed today... the STS announcement will happen before end of the year) you might try and expand your customer base.

Or not..

97EldoCoupe
01-26-09, 10:58 PM
They have the opportunity to show the headers, if they actually exist. My guess is they don't? Dr Design, I'm telling ya, you'll be way ahead to show this car and prove your stuff because you seem to have the financial resources to design, fabricate, and market a good set of headers. It's all well and good to build a one-off car but it's bad for business not having anything to sell. I guess you're doing well enough selling the body kits and such that headers would be a waste of your time?

SupRNatural
01-27-09, 12:06 PM
I can tune 96 to 03 PCM's. I looked at the 04 and 05 cals and decided to wait.


ANY NEWS on 96's? :cool::hmm:

The Tony Show
01-27-09, 12:34 PM
Try looking up 2006 SEMA Show.. :thumbsup:
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r134/ctd3rnd/lucerne-page.jpg




I hate to break this to all you people doubting D3's claims, but I count 11 stickers on the side of that Lucerne, so that's at least 110hp right there.

Then consider that there could be 11 more on the other side, in which case we'd be talking about 22 stickers- that's good for a 220hp increase over stock!

SupRNatural
01-27-09, 12:38 PM
I hate to break this to all you people doubting D3's claims, but I count 11 stickers on the side of that Lucerne, so that's at least 110hp right there.

Then consider that there could be 11 more on the other side, in which case we'd be talking about 22 stickers- that's good for a 220hp increase over stock!

:lildevil::sneaky: The rims are good for 10 hp each at the wheels alone.:histeric:

NorthStarGXP
01-27-09, 02:08 PM
Our intention wasnt to come in this forum to stir up a bunch of stuff. We just wanted to share, what we thought, was a pretty interesting build. Some of you are asking for more information than we are willing to give out. I guess next time we wont bring our toys to show and tell.... =)

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac

Please don't. Your posts consisted of unsubstantiated fluff. You didn't share information about the build. You have claimed a horsepower number with no backing data, not even how you measured it. I did the exact same thing to make a point, and found that it is very easy to do.

Outside of professional racing, reputable shops that do performance builds will generally tell you how they did it, including pictures. I'm not even looking for cam specs and detailed porting info. If you really did get 400hp, there is a process that you went through, plenty of trial and error, several dyno runs along the way, and we'd like to hear about it (except that I don't believe it ever really happened).

If you are running NOS to get 400 fwhp, that is no big deal, it's been done.

This is a technical forum, we are not really interested in body kits and wheels. If you are going to post up about a 400hp NA Northstar and then can't answer any questions about how it was done or how the horsepower was measured, then I agree, don't waste our time or yours.

gothicaleigh
01-27-09, 10:48 PM
I hate to break this to all you people doubting D3's claims, but I count 11 stickers on the side of that Lucerne, so that's at least 110hp right there.

Then consider that there could be 11 more on the other side, in which case we'd be talking about 22 stickers- that's good for a 220hp increase over stock!

Those are obviously uncalibrated stickers, so it's all speculation as to how many RWHPs they may yield.

Trust me, I'm an expert.
http://8thdaycreations.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=53

:D

TaVern
01-28-09, 12:52 AM
Try looking up 2006 SEMA Show.. :thumbsup:

Respectfully sir, I did.

Motor Trend covered 64 different vehicles of the 2006 SEMA Show. Nothing was published from D3.

Motor Trend 2006 SEMA Part 1 -->http://www.motortrend.com/auto_shows/coverage/sema/112_2006_sema_show/index.html

Motor Trend 2006 SEMA Part 2 -->http://www.motortrend.com/auto_shows/coverage/sema/112_2006_sema_show/index.html


When I google'd "2006 SEMA Show D3", the only top hits I got were Pioneer's AVIC D3 Touchscreen Navigation Unit.

Four down from the top of Google's results, I found this posted on an internet forum site by you, sir -->http://www.skyroadster.com/forums/f39/d3-saturn-sky-sema-vehicle-4-sale-26258/

You tell us to look up 2006 SEMA Show, and I find nothing except for an internet forum posting on a Saturn page, which was posted by you no less.

It seems the only claims of D3 superiority come exclusively from you. Why is that?

TaVern
01-28-09, 03:41 AM
Is this how you guys advertise?

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/t250091.html

urbanski
01-28-09, 06:03 AM
^^interesting, non-legal non-paid advertising on a HONDA forum.

Destroyer
01-28-09, 06:54 AM
^^interesting, non-legal non-paid advertising on a HONDA forum................with only 3 regulars in the room.

Ur7x
01-28-09, 11:24 AM
^^interesting, non-legal non-paid advertising on a HONDA forum.

Interesting? Yes, Surprising? No...

Ever since D3 hit this forum they have been nothing more then a flashy website (or is that a website that uses too much flash player) for a tire/wheel reseller who makes the odd "ricer" body kit on the side.

The fact they are now expanding into the wonderful word of Honda makes perfect sense.

Any (and EVERY) request for electronic or performance modifications to our cars has met with:
Excuses, Confusion, and polite Declines

The Tony Show
01-28-09, 11:30 AM
^ Stickar eckspert

trukk
01-28-09, 11:54 AM
http://www.sadman64.net/images/rofl/rofl1.png

Still waiting on D3 to produce the goods in this thread as well:

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2004/149909-575-hp-585-tq-xlr-v.html

-Chris

AlBundy
01-28-09, 12:30 PM
D3 overload.:bomb:

97EldoCoupe
01-28-09, 03:44 PM
I for one believe that D3 really could have something good going for them. But they have to be more open about their conversions and show us what they've done, what they can do, etc.

The bottom line is they have to go out there and make HEADLINES with their products. This means road competitions against the AMG series vehicles and WIN. Period. PROVE what they're capable of doing. I'd like to see them succeed, in a way. But no false advertising, no HP claims without something to back it up, nothing like that. They're trying to prove something to a tough crowd- US- and it's going to take more than just a few numbers to convince us.

The Tony Show
01-28-09, 03:57 PM
D3 had a BIG opportunity when one of the mags (Car & Driver or Motor Trend, I don't remember) tested an XLR-V with their kit on it. Unfortunately, it was provided to the magazine with a heavy wheel/tire combo, non-sticky tires and excessive TQ mgmt and timing being pulled by the stock tune. The end result was basically stock performance after a ton of mods, which didn't reflect well on D3 or Cadillac. The mods might very well be worth the money, but the wheels,tires and tune crippled the car in that test.

Dear D3,

I'd love to see a company that makes serious performance mods for Cadillac succeed- honestly. That being said, please stop posting up photos or teasers of secret projects with "claimed" gains, then refuse to discuss how you achieved it (even in vague terms)- a heavily Photoshopped picture is great for a catalog or web site, but the gearheads who are going to drop the bucks want to see pictures of an engine opened up, cam specs, dyno sheets and a video of the car at the strip.

Show us some results, tell us how you got them, and the business will come to you. No one's going to steal your secrets, since they'd still have to make the cam and figure out how you tuned the car, not to mention which heads you used, etc. It's not like posting up the details will allow people to do it themselves and circumvent you. There's a TON of guys on here that would gladly have you do a cam and tune on their N*, but no one is going to pony up the money and drive out to you based on nothing more than promises. Respected tuners like Malett, Lingenfelter, Thunder, and many others even post their custom cam specs and details right on their web pages, and that's why people feel good about doing business with them.

A post on a forum that says, "We did this, but won't tell you how" just makes people think "Yeah right".

AlBundy
01-28-09, 04:10 PM
You see the response they've gotten in the N* lounge are similar to the V lounge. D3 needs to take this all in and rethink how they post their products on the forum as now they know the info is needed to convince us their products are worth purchasing.

Edit:

Sorry Tone. I posted before I read your post but we're making pretty much the same point.:thumbsup:

Ur7x
01-28-09, 04:16 PM
We really need to cut D3 some slack...

After doing a little searching I came up with their latest project...
Not a Cadillac but still I think D3 is really hitting their stride with this effort:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v317/Thatoneguy3987/photoshop/bus.jpg

No performance details, but man you know its gotta put out 600HP with those 22 inchers and wire mesh grill!

dkozloski
01-28-09, 04:50 PM
We really need to cut D3 some slack...

After doing a little searching I came up with their latest project...
Not a Cadillac but still I think D3 is really hitting their stride with this effort:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v317/Thatoneguy3987/photoshop/bus.jpg

No performance details, but man you know its gotta put out 600HP with those 22 inchers and wire mesh grill!
Hey! That looks like the bus my boy rides to school every day. The ground effects are amazing in the snow.

TaVern
01-28-09, 04:52 PM
No performance details, but man you know its gotta put out 600HP with those 22 inchers and wire mesh grill!

It missing decals... Deduct 200HP.

MrEr1c
01-28-09, 09:05 PM
Is this 400 Crank HP or Wheel HP?:hmm:

this is a response i got from Dr. Design when i asked them about this.


The reason we provide crank numbers and not wheel numbers is because that is how most people can relate to THEIR vehicle. So rather than have to explain to everyone (the casual enthusiast) the differences between crank and wheel figures, we just post the crank figures to make it easier.
So they think the people looking to add gobs of hp to their vehicles are just casual enthusiasts who base all their tuning and expertise on crank numbers...when what really matters is rwhp.


Hate to break it to ya D3, the "casual enthusiast" doesn't have the option to have their engine dyno tested.

Destroyer
01-28-09, 09:16 PM
Nobody would do that to a Lucerne. The demand for a car like that is virtually nill, notta, zilch. Anyone wanting a 400hp sedan is going to buy a CTS-V, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus or whatever. Nobody is gonna dump the money into a Buick!.

MrEr1c
01-28-09, 09:20 PM
Nobody would do that to a Lucerne. The demand for a car like that is virtually nill, notta, zilch. Anyone wanting a 400hp sedan is going to buy a CTS-V, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus or whatever. Nobody is gonna dump the money into a Buick!.

Not to mention how D3's reputation is becoming like that of Hennessy Performance. Except D3 never had the performance results and credibility that Hennessy did/does.

Dr. Design
01-28-09, 09:30 PM
I see we have a bunch of comedians here:lawl: . This ought to really make us want to share information with the group. I know its just the internet and people write and say usually whatever the first thing that comes into their heads. Understandable. I get it.

If you are going to insult us and the people that we have working here with dumb remarks like this then why even continue with the post? Some of you wanted us to answer questions about the original topic and we see crap like this. Why should we answer any questions if we get stepped on like this? We have tried very hard to support the Cadillac community. We have hosted events, open houses, attended cruises, etc.. Not to mention the countless hours and hours of development work we have done. We are a business and in business to make money. Our primary function here is not to offer short cuts for DIY's and provide free technical information as some of you request. As friendly as some of you are, we just cant do that. Hope you understand, but I understand if you dont.

Thanks,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac











We really need to cut D3 some slack...

After doing a little searching I came up with their latest project...
Not a Cadillac but still I think D3 is really hitting their stride with this effort:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v317/Thatoneguy3987/photoshop/bus.jpg

No performance details, but man you know its gotta put out 600HP with those 22 inchers and wire mesh grill!

Dr. Design
01-28-09, 09:36 PM
I think you misunderstood this. I said it was due to the fact that the manufacturer states HP numbers given at the crank. Most people would get different results based on different dynos. This is why I told you BHP not WHP...

Thanks,

Dr. Design


this is a response i got from Dr. Design when i asked them about this.


So they think the people looking to add gobs of hp to their vehicles are just casual enthusiasts who base all their tuning and expertise on crank numbers...when what really matters is rwhp.


Hate to break it to ya D3, the "casual enthusiast" doesn't have the option to have their engine dyno tested.

TaVern
01-28-09, 10:19 PM
Some of you wanted us to answer questions about the original topic and we see crap like this.

Dr. Design,

While I may not have shown it with my past remarks, I'm honestly grateful for D3's contributions in the Cadillac community, and more specifically with the members of CadillacOwners.com.

Please understand that you would not "see crap like this" if these questions were simply answered. Every single ridiculous, asinine post in this thread, including mine, would have easily been avoided if so many of us weren't left in the dark.

In your Private Message to me, you stated "that it wasn’t prudent for us to continue posting" in this thread. Yet here you are posting again. You have a passion for your company that I admire. So why not share that passion with the rest of us?

Whether you choose to or not is your own doing. I'm only trying to give you an outside perspective of D3's operations here in this forum. That perspective can be easily changed to a positive direction, by you sir.

Thank you in advance.

-Justin

Destroyer
01-28-09, 10:44 PM
I see we have a bunch of comedians here:lawl: . This ought to really make us want to share information with the group. I know its just the internet and people write and say usually whatever the first thing that comes into their heads. Understandable. I get it.

If you are going to insult us and the people that we have working here with dumb remarks like this then why even continue with the post? Some of you wanted us to answer questions about the original topic and we see crap like this. Why should we answer any questions if we get stepped on like this? We have tried very hard to support the Cadillac community. We have hosted events, open houses, attended cruises, etc.. Not to mention the countless hours and hours of development work we have done. We are a business and in business to make money. Our primary function here is not to offer short cuts for DIY's and provide free technical information as some of you request. As friendly as some of you are, we just cant do that. Hope you understand, but I understand if you dont.

Thanks,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac
Yeah sure, see ya at the liquidation auction your shop will be in! If you really built a Lucerne, you deserve to go out of business! Don't mistake reality for comedy :lildevil:

Thanks,

Dr. Destroyer

delatorre1986
01-28-09, 10:49 PM
:tsucks:

Destroyer
01-28-09, 10:49 PM
Now that is a Lucerne I would drive!Were you saying that to be nice Elias? Personally I think the car looks homo with the ricer wheels and stupid stick on portholes. WTF?

Thanks,

Dr. Destroyer

Destroyer
01-28-09, 10:50 PM
:tsucks:
No, exposing frauds is always fun!;)

delatorre1986
01-28-09, 10:56 PM
No, exposing frauds is always fun!;)

lol be careful he might write you a very stern private message. :wisdom:

Ur7x
01-28-09, 11:16 PM
If you are going to insult us and the people that we have working here with dumb remarks like this then why even continue with the post?

Thanks,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac


Ding Ding Ding... We have a winner!
If you can't, or refuse, to document things, If you can't, or refuse, to discuss things, and if you have nothing to sell other then 22" wheels and 30 Series tires...

Then why do you even continue to post at all?

I'm one of the old timers on this board, I remember when your firm first joined this group as a vendor... I thought to myself:

FINALLY a firm who will work on our cars...
You asked us what your firm could do and what products we would be interested in...

Then I thought...
Wow! Now we are going to get somewhere...

I gave you several suggestions... that included suspension upgrades, electronics upgrades, engine upgrades, a turbo kit and a few others all of which you ignored.

Over at your website I immediately noticed that there was nothing too much beyond a fancy flash page other then body kits and wheels and tires, almost nothing had a price and everything was "coming soon". (most of which never came)

By that time I was thinking
I am I the only one here who thinks something smells funny

Now you are posting on a performance the technical discussion forum and you refuse to discuss performance or technical specifications and you are surprised that we become a angry
:mob:

RightTurn
01-28-09, 11:39 PM
Were you saying that to be nice Elias? Personally I think the car looks homo with the ricer wheels and stupid stick on portholes. WTF?

Thanks,

Dr. Destroyer

Are those stick-on portholes?? Buicks have always had portholes, even when portholes weren't cool. :alchi:

ejguillot
01-28-09, 11:50 PM
To D3:

If that Buick is really putting out 400HP at the crank, how about showing us a video of it going down the 1/4 mile? Show us what the car will do in a real world situation.

Different dynos spit out different WHP figures, but a good 1/4 mile time and trap speed are harder to argue with.

dkozloski
01-29-09, 01:01 AM
Ding Ding Ding... We have a winner!
If you can't, or refuse, to document things, If you can't, or refuse, to discuss things, and if you have nothing to sell other then 22" wheels and 30 Series tires...

Then why do you even continue to post at all?

I'm one of the old timers on this board, I remember when your firm first joined this group as a vendor... I thought to myself:

FINALLY a firm who will work on our cars...
You asked us what your firm could do and what products we would be interested in...

Then I thought...
Wow! Now we are going to get somewhere...

I gave you several suggestions... that included suspension upgrades, electronics upgrades, engine upgrades, a turbo kit and a few others all of which you ignored.

Over at your website I immediately noticed that there was nothing too much beyond a fancy flash page other then body kits and wheels and tires, almost nothing had a price and everything was "coming soon". (most of which never came)

By that time I was thinking
I am I the only one here who thinks something smells funny

Now you are posting on a performance the technical discussion forum and you refuse to discuss performance or technical specifications and you are surprised that we become a angry
:mob:
There was stuff on that web page you speak of that was "coming soon" for years and never did materialize. I believe that their business model is best described as flim-flam. Once again you can't fool all the people all the time.

delatorre1986
01-29-09, 01:42 AM
dam this dude is getting flamed so bad his keyboard going to catch on fire when he logs in........ :ohthedrama:


:food-snacking:

dkozloski
01-29-09, 01:59 AM
There are a couple of basic rules to be followed in the performance automotive world; don't promise or even hint at something you can't deliver on and don't expect that all your potential customers are as ignorant as you'd like them to be. Once the world discovers that the emperor has no clothes it's Katie bar the door.

danbuc
01-29-09, 12:36 PM
How many Ft/Lb's of Torque is it putting out, and what modifications were made to the transmission to inscrease the life under the added power?

Best case scenario this is "real", this guys starts going around beating on his "400hp" Lucerne....how long do you think that 4T80E is gonna hold up. They may be strong, but they already run on the ragged edge stock as it is.

Addon trans fluid cooler? Heavy duty friction/steels? If you were going for a "complete" build this issue would have had to be addressed, or at the very least considered.

No dyno sheet, no build pics, no specific parts list, and no difinitive word on why= Bulls**t Pure and Simple.


Why would you be hesitant to disclose build information on a "special project" Did you not tell the owner what you put in his car either? Are you afraid someone here might steal your idea and start producing their own line of special edition 400hp Buick Lucerne's and you guys won't get royalties?

There is absolutely no logical reason behind why you wouldn't tell us what specifically was done. Were they Speedpro pistons? Eagle Rods? Magnaflow cats (which bring up another point...where the hell did you put the second cat? lol). What's the grind on the cams? How much more CFM do the head flow over stock? Were they shaved to raise compression? ARe you running a different airbox or filter? What type of exhaust system is on it?

These are all questions that require answering should the validty of your statements be proven. As of right now....all we have is a black Buick Lucerne with some rims on it, and what looks like it might be the STS/DTS Corsa setup sticking out back.


And if I'm not mistaken....most shops worth have a rat's a$$ will usually document a special "one off" build like this.....unless it's just some nice rims and exhaust.



God I miss these threads lol....

Dr. Design
01-29-09, 02:22 PM
I certainly don’t appreciate the derogatory remarks towards our company, mainly due to the fact that the company is an expression of our passion for Cadillac's. However if some of you guys would have approached us a little differently about asking for more information without the "remarks", this could have turned out differently... It's childish to try and effect our vendor posts with remarks stemming from this post in an obvious attempt to hurt our business.

Your approach this time around was appreciated. We can take constructive criticism, but vendor bashing is never cool.

We are sorry we couldn't have been more involved in development work for the FWD Northstar program. But from the looks of it you have some pretty good companies already supporting it. We have big ambitions and sometimes that takes big budgets to develop products for a niche market. Unfortunately we cannot cover all the applications, no matter how bad we want to.

Thanks,

Dr. Design






Dr. Design,

While I may not have shown it with my past remarks, I'm honestly grateful for D3's contributions in the Cadillac community, and more specifically with the members of CadillacOwners.com.

Please understand that you would not "see crap like this" if these questions were simply answered. Every single ridiculous, asinine post in this thread, including mine, would have easily been avoided if so many of us weren't left in the dark.

In your Private Message to me, you stated "that it wasn’t prudent for us to continue posting" in this thread. Yet here you are posting again. You have a passion for your company that I admire. So why not share that passion with the rest of us?

Whether you choose to or not is your own doing. I'm only trying to give you an outside perspective of D3's operations here in this forum. That perspective can be easily changed to a positive direction, by you sir.

Thank you in advance.

-Justin

MrEr1c
01-29-09, 02:48 PM
I certainly don’t appreciate the derogatory remarks towards our company, mainly due to the fact that the company is an expression of our passion for Cadillac's. However if some of you guys would have approached us a little differently about asking for more information without the "remarks", this could have turned out differently... It's childish to try and effect our vendor posts with remarks stemming from this post in an obvious attempt to hurt our business.

Your approach this time around was appreciated. We can take constructive criticism, but vendor bashing is never cool.

We are sorry we couldn't have been more involved in development work for the FWD Northstar program. But from the looks of it you have some pretty good companies already supporting it. We have big ambitions and sometimes that takes big budgets to develop products for a niche market. Unfortunately we cannot cover all the applications, no matter how bad we want to.

Thanks,

Dr. Design
How about a response to the post above yours? You know, the one by danbuc?


And leave it to the Moderators to let us know if this vender bashing is not acceptable.

Ur7x
01-29-09, 05:49 PM
I certainly don’t appreciate the derogatory remarks towards our company, mainly due to the fact that the company is an expression of our passion for Cadillac's. However if some of you guys would have approached us a little differently about asking for more information without the "remarks", this could have turned out differently...

Lets review:
1) You posted pictures and video of a cool, undocumented, build of a FWD Northstar, you know, the cars that you say that you don't work on.
2) A few "newer" members say "cool build"
3) A few "older" members, aka potential customers, say "Wow, show us what you did?"
4) One or two didn't get the hype around the car.
5) A few other old timers ask for pictures, cam specs, etc.
6) You say, that there is nothing to see, no pictures exist, no 1/4 mile run, no dyno sheet and no parts list...
7) And, Everybody gets their panties in a bunch.

Help me understand how this could have turned out differently?
YOU sir, had the opportunity to have this "turn out differently"... You could have avoided the train wreck at steps 1,2,3,5,6 or even part way through 7...

The flaming didn't start until YOU refused to answer some pretty basic questions. And BTW a grainy digital photo of the headers on that car would have netted at least 5 new customers OVERNIGHT. AJ has over 50 customers on this forum who dropped several hundred on a new PCM for their cars...many of those run Corsa or other aftermarket exhausts. You can bet that at least half of those would be lining up for headers...

But rather then get new customers we are all now wondering IF the headers even exist.

And before your firm starts pointing fingers, take a look at some of your other posts... You seem to have a bit of a track record of threads that end up like this.

Almost all of your posts that start out "look what we built", end up with no proof, no documentation and with you saying that you want to take your toys and go home. The "Tuned XLR-V" thread where the car runs stock trap speeds and when you were challenged to race the car... suddenly it was in pieces in your shop.

The "who wants headers" thread was another train wreck.

I wish you and your firm the best.

And as I have posted before if I were you I would reconsider your "focus" on the XLR, the RWD STS and the CTS.

The XLR is dead; production of this car will end forever in the next couple of weeks. The RWD V8 STS sales number are so low that GM will likely kill that car late in 2009. That will leave only the CTS and the FWD NorthStars at GM. CTS sales are ever so slightly up (< 3%) for the 2008MY but 2009 will be very difficult for this car and the CTS coupe has been placed on hold now for a "maybe" 2010 release. A week ago GM anounced that the platform that the CTS rides on will NOT be replaced once the CTS car has run its course. In other words, the niche you are playing in is shrinking and it is shrinking FAST.

You should really consider expanding your customer base by offering the Buick system to 1998-2004 Seville owners and to ALL recent Deville offerings.

Or not.

CTSV_Rob
01-29-09, 08:16 PM
Another D3 thread that has spiraled down hill and what is the common denominator?

It's always a good idea to post how you get these numbers and pictures say a lot. If you not willing to do either then how are we to trust the final product will be what we are looking for?

This is a niche market and if you design something to sell I highly doubt someone will take the picture and reverse engineer it. Do as most companies do, release the assembly drawings and pictures but anything with dimensions on it should be held back.

If you hold back too much information it just looks like vaporware to the smarter, more Senior members.

Treat us as intelligent and trust worthy and we will treat you the same way. By saying we are here to "pick" on you isn't always the case and when you come off with this tone even though it wasn't our intent we tend to lower ourselves down to this level.

To keep from doing this I have stopped reading your posts (for the most part) but this is a prime example of something that could have worked out well for you if you would have handled the questions properly. I for one would love to see you succeed and make some quality mods for this platform and this is why I have stepped back and have not posted in many of your threads. Reason I have done this is to give you a chance to promote your products properly.

Good luck and please try to turn this around. Maybe instead of flaming back at these guys or taking your time to flame back at them why don't you answer the questions in better detail. I think you will find it will work in your favor and not against you. Trust us so we can learn to trust you.

: peace :

TaVern
01-30-09, 12:20 AM
Sorry guys, we arent into show and tell on custom builds.


However if some of you guys would have approached us a little differently about asking for more information without the "remarks", this could have turned out differently...

Dr. Design,

I appreciate your response. I have no forethought of vendor bashing here. Respectfully sir, we are a group of Cadillac enthusiasts. My intention is not to agitate, but rather inquire. However, you cannot legitimately have this both ways.

Did you guys have the information of this build and intend to withhold it? Or did you purposely restrict this forum of technical discussion due to ridiculed feedback?

Your attention to this matter is greatly appreciated. I thank you in advance.

-Justin

STSj90
01-30-09, 04:19 AM
I certainly don’t appreciate the derogatory remarks towards our company, mainly due to the fact that the company is an expression of our passion for Cadillac's. However if some of you guys would have approached us a little differently about asking for more information without the "remarks", this could have turned out differently... It's childish to try and effect our vendor posts with remarks stemming from this post in an obvious attempt to hurt our business.

Your approach this time around was appreciated. We can take constructive criticism, but vendor bashing is never cool.

We are sorry we couldn't have been more involved in development work for the FWD Northstar program. But from the looks of it you have some pretty good companies already supporting it. We have big ambitions and sometimes that takes big budgets to develop products for a niche market. Unfortunately we cannot cover all the applications, no matter how bad we want to.

Thanks,

Dr. Design


You never had any intentions of giving any information out... You wouldnt have told us anything even if we would have said, Man thats awsome, YOUR awsome! Can you please please tell us some specs? Or PLEASE give us a dyno sheet? (wich can be faked by the way)

Unfortunatly the internet is just words when you dont have anything to back up what you say or have any proof.

Either your really selfish or your BSing us. Im going to go with BS....


Do you know how much it would have helped your products sell if you would have real proof/specs?? A hell of alot more than just acouple of pics and a rev vid. How about some pics of what went into the engine? How bout a track vid? How about ANY information?!??!?!?! MAKE a real vid! Show us what it can do...Or what it cant do.

We are not childish. You are, you cant just toy with a car group like that and expect to get a good response..

Like i said, D3 Must be selfish or full of S***...

thebigjimsho
01-30-09, 05:40 AM
Are those stick-on portholes?? Buicks have always had portholes, even when portholes weren't cool. :alchi:
You are a stunningly accurate woman...

Ur7x
01-30-09, 09:39 AM
I wonder, what kind of Doctor is Dr. Design.

CadillacSTS42005
01-30-09, 09:41 AM
that things modified? with headers?
my STS with AJ tune sounds louder than that "thing"
raise the flag boyz
:bsflag:
i was really trying to grab support for you to make something real, but all the smoke and mirrors are well, its already been said

AlBundy
01-30-09, 11:21 AM
You are a stunning woman...

Fixed.:D

dkozloski
01-30-09, 03:36 PM
You are a stunning woman...

She whams'em with a rolling pin. That'ed stun a Missouri mule.

Destroyer
01-30-09, 10:53 PM
The staff at D3 have no penis's. It's painfully obvious.:alchi:

dkozloski
01-31-09, 12:53 AM
The staff at D3 have no penis's. It's painfully obvious.:alchi:
I vote that in the future Destroyer be allowed to say anything he wants about Northstars without being subjected to abuse.

delatorre1986
01-31-09, 01:32 AM
The staff at D3 have no penis's. It's painfully obvious.:alchi:

D3's reaction.



























http://threadbomb.us/com/gallery/1_05_12_07_1_02_40.gif

gary88
01-31-09, 01:34 AM
Hey guys check out my 550hp SLS!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3153/2591791162_87136613b9.jpg?v=0

Ur7x
01-31-09, 02:17 AM
Hey guys check out my 550hp SLS!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3153/2591791162_87136613b9.jpg?v=0

Great Car! Love that body kit and those wheels are amazing!
Any details on the engine work? Are you a Doctor too?

delatorre1986
01-31-09, 03:08 AM
I certainly don’t appreciate the derogatory remarks towards our company, mainly due to the fact that the company is an expression of our passion for Cadillac's. However if some of you guys would have approached us a little differently about asking for more information without the "remarks", this could have turned out differently... It's childish to try and effect our vendor posts with remarks stemming from this post in an obvious attempt to hurt our business.

Your approach this time around was appreciated. We can take constructive criticism, but vendor bashing is never cool.

We are sorry we couldn't have been more involved in development work for the FWD Northstar program. But from the looks of it you have some pretty good companies already supporting it. We have big ambitions and sometimes that takes big budgets to develop products for a niche market. Unfortunately we cannot cover all the applications, no matter how bad we want to.

Thanks,

Dr. Design

hmmmmm

Starfire88
01-31-09, 06:47 AM
Dr. Design i have an honest question;
I'm considering purchasing a 08 Buick Lucerne Super. If i do buy this car would you be willing to for a second time do the same engine modifications as mentioned in this thread and post pictures of the build up in progress here? I know you said it was a one off deal, but it would make one happy car owner and silence alot of people on the forum

CadillacSTS42005
01-31-09, 07:15 AM
^
brown nose...

Starfire88
01-31-09, 07:58 AM
Possibly but i am in bad need of a new car. My current one is falling apart.
I'm still haggling with the dealer on price so i may not ever get the car

Ur7x
01-31-09, 11:34 AM
Dr. Design i have an honest question;
I'm considering purchasing a 08 Buick Lucerne Super. If i do buy this car would you be willing to for a second time do the same engine modifications as mentioned in this thread and post pictures of the build up in progress here? I know you said it was a one off deal, but it would make one happy car owner and silence alot of people on the forum


You are VERY BRAVE. Lets be honest here, D3 is a shop that resells overpriced wheels and tires... and THATS IT... They don't have any capabilities to tune or modify cars to make them faster, if they do they are keeping evidence of that VERY SECRET. And thats a great way to run a business:rolleyes:...

A few of us on these forums have figured this out. Oh and the body kits they sell and install aren't made in house but are made by other firms.

Every time they bring a "super duper" tuned car out to play it either has mechanical problems that preclude a performance test or it produces amazingly stock like times. Then they blame the tires, the driver, the weather, the phase of the moon.

The one thing we don't know is what kind of Doctor Dr. Design actaully is.
Many of you are thinking "snake oil"
My money is on proctologist.

urbanski
01-31-09, 11:44 AM
proctology, aka colorectal surgery, takes 4 years college, 4 years med school, 5 years general surgery residency, 1 or 2 years colorectal fellowship...and then depending on the practice, 120+ hour work weeks. still think that now?

urbanski
01-31-09, 11:44 AM
A few of us on these forums have figured this out. Oh and the body kits they sell and install aren't made in house but are made by other firms. .

same w/ the wheels

gary88
01-31-09, 01:18 PM
Great Car! Love that body kit and those wheels are amazing!
Any details on the engine work? Are you a Doctor too?

The build was done at Area 51 using super secret space age technology. No details for you.

Thank you,
gary88 MD

dkozloski
01-31-09, 02:43 PM
Dr. Design is a Phd.; Post Hole Digger.

CTSV_Rob
02-01-09, 12:48 AM
PHD = Plied High & Deep.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
02-01-09, 01:45 AM
PHD = Plied High & Deep.


Pretty Huge Dic..........tionary

CTSV_Rob
02-01-09, 02:14 AM
PHD = Plied High & Deep.
Oh shit, fail.

Should be:

PHD = Piled High and Deep

thebigjimsho
02-01-09, 04:17 AM
This is discouraging... :ill:

mighty_quad4
02-01-09, 08:29 AM
can this thread be locked please? its pointless. D3 isnt going to release any info and while making fun of them is fun it isnt doing any good.

i wouldnt buy anything from them based on thier behavior in this thread. thier complete lack of info on the car is ridiculous. i dont care so much if they dont wanna release info on specifics, but show that thing running down the track. if it has 400hp, itll show up on the timeslip as mph if the car doesnt have traction. since they havent done that, the D3 needs to put up or shut up. since they have put up....

Ur7x
02-01-09, 09:56 AM
can this thread be locked please? its pointless. D3 isnt going to release any info and while making fun of them is fun it isnt doing any good.

i wouldnt buy anything from them based on thier behavior in this thread. thier complete lack of info on the car is ridiculous. i dont care so much if they dont wanna release info on specifics, but show that thing running down the track. if it has 400hp, itll show up on the timeslip as mph if the car doesnt have traction. since they havent done that, the D3 needs to put up or shut up. since they have put up....

No, this thread does a WORLD of good... It reminds EVERYONE exactly what kind of firm D3 is... If anyone chooses to do business with them, this thread provides a BIG RED WARNING FLAG.

mighty_quad4
02-01-09, 01:06 PM
if that is the case then why are they allowed to be a vendor on here?

CadillacSTS42005
02-01-09, 01:10 PM
cuz they pay the bills,
im sure if you make up their chunk sal will cut them out and put you in...

thebigjimsho
02-01-09, 04:58 PM
swade?

urbanski
02-01-09, 05:28 PM
swade

thebigjimsho
02-01-09, 06:24 PM
swade!

AlBundy
02-01-09, 06:43 PM
Escaswade

dkozloski
02-01-09, 08:10 PM
Perswade

codewize
02-01-09, 08:48 PM
:cookoo: :stirpot::horse::anibs::~blah::xbs::jerkit: :whatever::bsflag::postpics:

BlackCaddy87
02-02-09, 02:17 AM
wow you guys need to grow up. i browse several mustang and ls1 forums and you guys have got to be the most stubborn people. this was ONE customers car that they probably do not even have anymore. do you expect them to stalk their client so they can constantly fulfill your needs with pictures, dyno runs, track times. This guy may not even care about the power. I've seen plenty of new saleen mustangs that look amazing just to find the stock V6 under the hood. believe it or not most people care about looks and bragging rights. they don't care to go to the track every chance they get. a lot of people dont understand the difference between wheel hp vs crank. they would probably get upset thinking that they spend several grand on a 275 hp car and it only made around 320 at the wheels...they wouldn't understand that

Did you guys forget about Tim Allens DTS? that baby has 398 hp mainly because of new pistons that bumped the compression to 12.0 to 1. they estimated that just 10.5 to 1 would be good for 320-350.

Ur7x
02-02-09, 03:42 AM
wow you guys need to grow up. i browse several mustang and ls1 forums and you guys have got to be the most stubborn people. this was ONE customers car that they probably do not even have anymore. do you expect them to stalk their client so they can constantly fulfill your needs with pictures, dyno runs, track times. This guy may not even care about the power. I've seen plenty of new saleen mustangs that look amazing just to find the stock V6 under the hood. believe it or not most people care about looks and bragging rights. they don't care to go to the track every chance they get. a lot of people dont understand the difference between wheel hp vs crank. they would probably get upset thinking that they spend several grand on a 275 hp car and it only made around 320 at the wheels...they wouldn't understand that

OK, but did you read the entire thread... Don't you think its odd that there isn't ONE photo of ANY of the parts that makes this car go? NONE... Wouldn't you expect ANY competent builder to take at least ONE photo of what they built... ONE photo of the headers... ONE photo of the intake system... If the guy didn't care about power then why post the title 400 HP NorthStar engine? There is NO dyno sheet to support ANY of this. He can't even remember the cam specs... He could at least make something "Old school" up like it's a 3/4 race cam or something.

If you are going to hit this forum with claims of a 400HP NorthStar motor be prepared to prove it.



Did you guys forget about Tim Allens DTS? that baby has 398 hp mainly because of new pistons that bumped the compression to 12.0 to 1. they estimated that just 10.5 to 1 would be good for 320-350.

Lets not start with Tim Allen's DTS... That car has been basically proven to be a FAKE too. That one the builder DID post pictures and guess what... the custom intake was stock, the custom headers were stock manifolds... etc etc.. and just like the D3 projects when it was taken out for testing... the transmission just happened to pack it in the day of the testing hmmm... right after it produced amazingly stock like 0-60 runs. But it sure sounded good and felt fast. :rolleyes:

Tim's 2000 DTSi 398HP Deville went 0-60 in 6.7 second and did the quarter mile in 15.1
Guess what Car and Driver, Motorweek and others have tested a BONE STOCK 2000 300HP DTS at?
0-60 6.6 seconds and 15.0 seconds in the quarter....

Hmm... where did the extra 98 HP go? Was it ever there? His "tuned" car sure produces amazingly stock like performance...

A few of us were on Tim's old forum and Tim and his moderators over there were none to interested in discussing that car.

And while we are discussing other peoples cars, I drive a bone stock 2002 Vin 9 W rated STS... It has custom pistons, custom intake, custom exhaust, custom floor mats and it makes 401HP at the crank... Don't ask me how I know... because I have never Dyno'd my car... but it sure sounds and feels quick. My quarter mile and 0-60 times are just like all of the other 2002 STS's but that is just a coincidence...

BlackCaddy87
02-02-09, 04:28 AM
the computer management and tranny were VERY protective of the powertrain. probably wasted a whole second shifting from 1-2. i'm just saying that with the right resources it is possible. the 06 can be tuned unlike all the others N*. some of you can't seem to figure out that the computer in an 06 dts is not the same as the one in your 00. D3 wasn't offering the package to anybody they were just letting you admire their work, much like AJ and his fiero.

RightTurn
02-02-09, 07:51 AM
... This guy may not even care about the power. I've seen plenty of new saleen mustangs that look amazing just to find the stock V6 under the hood. believe it or not most people care about looks and bragging rights.

"All show and no go." :cool:

RightTurn
02-02-09, 07:52 AM
D3 wasn't offering the package to anybody they were just letting you admire their work, much like AJ and his fiero.

:umno: D3 is a VENDOR. I'm pretty sure they would "offer the package." Just sayin. :coffee:

97EldoCoupe
02-02-09, 08:35 AM
I read the article on Tim Allen's DTS and when I saw the 1/4 mile time and 0-60 time, my jaw dropped. Not because they were amazing numbers, but because my bone stock '98 STS can pull off those numbers.

I know the Northstar can be modified to get good HP and TQ increases, but you have got to admit, these engines are already pushing over 1HP/c.i. It's going to take more than just a different cat-back exhaust to pull in 398HP, and the compression increase on Tim's DTS won't net the difference in HP that they claimed. Porting and Polishing is good for something, but the 00+ heads are very restrictive on the exhaust side. Great intake ports, but the exhaust ports aren't what the 93-99's are.

NorthStarGXP
02-02-09, 09:34 AM
the computer management and tranny were VERY protective of the powertrain. probably wasted a whole second shifting from 1-2. .

We are not talking about shifts, just the fictional 400 horsepower. But 1 full second on the 1-2 shift? LOL, that's a good one!


I'm just saying that with the right resources it is possible.. It sure is, nobody ever questioned that.


the 06 can be tuned unlike all the others N*. some of you can't seem to figure out that the computer in an 06 dts is not the same as the one in your 00..

Catch up, that was settled on page one. They could easily have a tune on it. What you can't seem to figure out is the difference between fantasy and reality. You believe that a 400 horsepower DTS runs the same 1/4 time as a 292 horsepower DTS. You believe that raising the compression ratio from 10:1 to 12:5 is the main ingredient to getting that 400 horsepower. 1 point in compression will typically return about 4% in peak horsepower if you have the octane to support it. It does vary quite a bit by engine, but sorry bro, it ain't gonna return 30+%, no matter what you believe. You believe that the computer is giving up 1 full second on the 1/2 shift...can't wait to see the tunable '06+ Northstars go from 15.0 to 14.0 by updating the 1/2 shift in the program. Then with the high-compression pistons and custom ground aftermarket cam that idles just like stock, they should run 12.0s.

You seem to be happy to believe whatever you are told, so just stick with that, and don't let us burst your bubble.

Ur7x
02-02-09, 09:37 AM
I read the article on Tim Allen's DTS and when I saw the 1/4 mile time and 0-60 time, my jaw dropped. Not because they were amazing numbers, but because my bone stock '98 STS can pull off those numbers.


Ya, Tim USED to hype that car like crazy and Tim USED to say that he had the fastest Deville on the planet... turns out, like the owner of this Buick, he got taken to the cleaners.

97EldoCoupe
02-02-09, 11:00 AM
I thought Tim was involved in the development of that car, including the improvements on the engine. Would he have wanted all the publicity if it was nothing but hype? Either he screwed up or someone else did the project and got big $$ out of him. I know that if I souped a car up, and it did no better than stock, I'd sure as hell not be advertising the project.

97EldoCoupe
02-02-09, 11:01 AM
Edit^^ Unless I was planning to figure out what didn't work, and kept trying until I got positive results...

Ur7x
02-02-09, 11:19 AM
I thought Tim was involved in the development of that car, including the improvements on the engine. Would he have wanted all the publicity if it was nothing but hype? Either he screwed up or someone else did the project and got big $$ out of him. I know that if I souped a car up, and it did no better than stock, I'd sure as hell not be advertising the project.


"involved" He opened up his walet and gave a much of cash to Wheel2Wheel and they took his money and gave him a car that produces AMAZINGLY stock like performance times.

They also upgraded the brakes and suspension... You know, to handle all of that extra power...

97EldoCoupe
02-02-09, 11:40 AM
Hopefully Tim doesn't brag too much about that Deville. If he actually did the work himself and got more involved, I'm sure it would have turned out a little different.

AlBundy
02-02-09, 12:08 PM
[quote=BlackCaddy87;1754391]wow you guys need to grow up. i browse several mustang and ls1 forums and you guys have got to be the most stubborn people. this was ONE customers car that they probably do not even have anymore.quote]

Maybe you need to browse this forum and pay more attention to D3 threads.:thepan:

Ur7x
02-02-09, 12:28 PM
Hopefully Tim doesn't brag too much about that Deville. If he actually did the work himself and got more involved, I'm sure it would have turned out a little different.

Tim used to hype the car A TON before the Car and Driver piece...
then after that article hit, and we could all see the VERY stock like performance numbers... Tim became VERY quite about the car. They even went so far to delete threads from Tim's online forum that were about this car...

BlackCaddy87
02-02-09, 01:20 PM
there are several of you guys that think you are getting 350 just from corsa exhaust and AJ's tune yet nobody questions them.

why would i browse this "Performance" forum night and day? I'd rather read up about LS1 or 5.0 builds than read a 2 year thread about a possible 5hp increase through a tune that NOBODY will get a dyno on.

delatorre1986
02-02-09, 01:40 PM
there are several of you guys that think you are getting 350 just from corsa exhaust and AJ's tune yet nobody questions them.

why would i browse this "Performance" forum night and day? I'd rather read up about LS1 or 5.0 builds than read a 2 year thread about a possible 5hp increase through a tune that NOBODY will get a dyno on.



lol........



http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/attachments/4-6l-talk/3695d1074514651-haha-funny-pic-e-thug.jpg

AJxtcman
02-02-09, 01:47 PM
But 1 full second on the 1-2 shift? LOL, that's a good one!



Come to the Northstar meet and see how much can be accomplished with the 1/2 shift.

Submariner409
02-02-09, 02:12 PM
Just to level the field, there is NO ONE (credible) in this thread quoting 350 hp of any sort from a CORSA and PCM work on a 3.71 final drive FWD Northstar. Hype is hype and consistent performance gains either on a dyno (same dyno) or track slips are the proof. "Sounds", "feels", and "I think......." along with "up to" and "may provide....." is advertising fish hook wording.

Unless any of Us, Don Garlits, Danica Patrick, you-name-it can show concrete objective test results of before and after, then it's all speculation, and a good bit of your perceived performance gain is directly proportional to how much money you were conned out of.

Very similar to the subject of this thread in the first place: If the Buick actually produced 400 HP and handled as inferred, then every hot rod magazine on the planet would be in line to document, as Jerry Reed sang: "We're gonna do what they say cain't be done......!"

blunted
02-02-09, 02:20 PM
Nothin' new here. I lost faith in this company when I saw them pulling peoples pants down for $650 Clear STS taillights when you can buy them direct from GM for $350... nice markup.. great vendor.

BlackCaddy87
02-02-09, 02:36 PM
me and a group of guys are going to the dyno this wed. last time i made 245hp and 259 or 260 tq...vin Y. since my last dyno visit i have removed the cat and resonator. i will make one run with my normal setup then make another with exhaust unbolted. i will have videos and other good stuff.

NorthStarGXP
02-02-09, 03:01 PM
I'd love to see an improvement there, it's just not going to be one second. I just checked a datalog of the 1-2 shift in my GXP. Total time for the shift is about .6 seconds (that includes the time that ignition timing is retarded). No matter what is coded in the PCM, the rpms cannot drop instantly. So let's say you cut the shift time in half, you are now are shifting .3 secs quicker. Keep in mind the car is still accelerating during a shift and you are already moving down the track. In the quarter mile you might get 1 or 2 tenths (my money is on 1 tenth). If you bark the tires you just lost some of the gain....although my inner juvenille thinks it would be really cool.

NorthStarGXP
02-02-09, 03:08 PM
me and a group of guys are going to the dyno this wed. last time i made 245hp and 259 or 260 tq...vin Y. since my last dyno visit i have removed the cat and resonator. i will make one run with my normal setup then make another with exhaust unbolted. i will have videos and other good stuff.

We look forward to seeing it. I will add that I was a bit of a jerk in my previous post, and I apologize for that.

I've already stated my opinions on the Lucerne, I stand by them, anybody else is welcome to their opinion, and I will chill out and leave it at that.

BlackCaddy87
02-02-09, 03:15 PM
do you have the timeslip of your gxp? we have a 1000 ft track here and i was wanting to compare numbers to another quick northstar. i ran the 1000ft in 11.70 @ 93

codewize
02-02-09, 03:40 PM
As far as I'm concerned there is no proof or record of Tim Allens DTS being anything more than stock. Look at the pics. The so called CAI is the stock air-box. OK so maybe they put a Corsa exhaust on it, we can't really tell, but I'm pretty darn sure he wasn't making any more HP than we are and until someone shows me proof otherwise I'm not buying it.

That whole 1 time article was very very deceptive and no one but no one has any information on the car. The people that supposedly built the car can' or wont' answer questions about it.

Until I see photos, a build sheet or some real dyno slips or time slips I don't believe a word of anything to do with tuning a N* in any chassis with any PCM.

BlackCaddy87
02-02-09, 04:17 PM
well the entire package was $58,000 including the car. usually if its an estimate it will be a nice round number, not 398hp and 362tq. are you suggesting they flat out lied about the headers and new 12.0 to 1 compression? they also state the powerband was bumped up to 4500-6400

BlackCaddy87
02-02-09, 04:21 PM
i have a question about the dyno. i thought you were supposed to get more hp at the gear closest to 1:1. if that happened to be 3rd gear would it show more or less hp in a 2nd gear pull? the last dyno was 245 in 2nd then 215 in 3rd. it really confused me.

Ur7x
02-02-09, 04:57 PM
well the entire package was $58,000 including the car. usually if its an estimate it will be a nice round number, not 398hp and 362tq. are you suggesting they flat out lied?

YES that is exactly what we are saying.

If the car made an extra 98 HP it should be almost a second and a half faster in the quarter... IT ISN'T...

It is an IN YOUR FACE fraud. PERIOD...

Wheel2Wheel also said that they were going to market the mods that they made to Tim's car in the form of DTSi and STSi kits...

They said that in 2000...

9 years later and NOTHING...

BlackCaddy87
02-02-09, 05:24 PM
1.5 seconds is a lot to expect from a front wheel drive car. do you honestly believe they lied about the pistons and headers? when i removed the cat and resonator my track times have been better ever since. went from a 12.18 @88 to an 11.7 @ 93. my car ran 13.3 @ 82 stock the with the help of magnaflows and a chip i worked my way down to 12.18 now with just the exhaust mod i run consistent 11.7-11.9 depending on my traction

AlBundy
02-02-09, 05:39 PM
:bonkers:

BlackCaddy87
02-02-09, 05:45 PM
see this is exactly why this whole forum sucks. i'd rather look at fbody and foxbody forums. i spend a lot more time helping my buddies with their mods than i do on my own car. i think "Performance" should be off the title and just leave it "Northstar Technical Discussion". you guys constantly insist there are no performance modifications so whats the use in a performance forum?

Submariner409
02-02-09, 06:02 PM
..........don't forget that for the last 8 posts we're talking 1,000 foot tracks, not the 1/4.

"Northstar Performance" refers not only to speed tuning, but also to just plain keeping it running, so practically anything is fair game.

NorthStarGXP
02-02-09, 06:04 PM
i have a question about the dyno. i thought you were supposed to get more hp at the gear closest to 1:1. if that happened to be 3rd gear would it show more or less hp in a 2nd gear pull? the last dyno was 245 in 2nd then 215 in 3rd. it really confused me.

I would not expect that much of a drop in 3rd. Yes, if all else is equal (which it apparently isn't) the horsepower at the wheels in 3rd gear should in theory read (and actually be) slightly higher than 2nd, because the drivetrain is accelerating more slowly during the pull, and therefore less power is lost to the inertia of the drivetrain (the rotational weight of everything from the crankshaft to the tires).

But all else may not be equal, the pcm may treat 3rd gear differently than 2nd. I've heard that Northstars go rich on the A/F after a certain amount of time at WOT to keep piston temps down. If you have a scan tool, you could monitor to see if that is happening or if timing is being pulled in 3rd. Then you could try it at the track and see if anything is different.

Also per AJ on another thread: If the PCM does not receive that NON Driven Wheel Speed Signal it will cut off upto 4 cylinders at a set MPH if you are at WOT. This is usually between 90 and 100.

Re the timeslips, I will post up all the details in a separate thread on this forum. I had the headlight popped out and the spare and jack removed to get to 14.60s. My best 1000' time was 12.25, although they did not provide mph on the 1000'.

Re the pistons on Tim Allen's car, my guess is yes they lied. If they did install them it obviously didn't work. On a tuned PCM with timing optimized for the application, I would not expect 12.5:1 to run any quicker than 10:1. You would have to reduce ignition timing greatly to prevent detonation. Front drive or no, it trapped at 94 mph which does not equate to 100+ horsepower over stock.

97EldoCoupe
02-02-09, 06:06 PM
There are ways to get more performance out of the Northstar.

#1- Forced induction, as Mark99STS has done, and as AJ and I are working on with the M90's.
#2- Increasing intake and exhaust flow. A custom more free flowing intake, if that's even possible, would be for starters. Headers and better exhaust too.
#3- Compression increase, but would likely not be worth the added cost.
#4- Different cams and/or porting and polishing. CHRFAB re-grinds the cams, not sure if these would be compatible with the stock PCM flash or not. Doubtful.

I'm sure there are other things to consider, but that should cover most of the possible upgrades. It's a very efficient engine already.

BlackCaddy87
02-02-09, 06:17 PM
well i looked up the specs for the 4t80. 1st gear = 2.96: 2nd gear = 1.63: 3rd gear = 1.00: 4th gear = 0.68: reverse = 2.13. these gear ratios are for both the 3.11's and 3.71's.

dwight.j.carter
02-02-09, 07:11 PM
Looks like a cool car and sounds good to. I would drive it.

Ur7x
02-02-09, 07:29 PM
1.5 seconds is a lot to expect from a front wheel drive car. do you honestly believe they lied about the pistons and headers? when i removed the cat and resonator my track times have been better ever since. went from a 12.18 @88 to an 11.7 @ 93. my car ran 13.3 @ 82 stock the with the help of magnaflows and a chip i worked my way down to 12.18 now with just the exhaust mod i run consistent 11.7-11.9 depending on my traction

Yes 1.5 seconds is alot... and so is a 33% increase in horse power.
Yes I think they lied about the pistons and I think that they lied about the leaders.
Yes I honestly think that.

If they didn't, then where are these products for sale?

97EldoCoupe
02-02-09, 07:31 PM
Exactly right. Why are the headers and pistons not for sale?

Hey UR7x I was planning on responding to your PM, your mailbox is full....:D

Destroyer
02-02-09, 07:32 PM
Instead of all this crap with tunes and headers and whatever why don't you guys that want to go fast simply nitrous them? A few years ago I ran into a rather ratty looking N* Eldorado at the drag strip running mid 8's in the 1/8th mile using nothing except nitrous. It's cheap, no guesswork involoved and it's effective. A mid 8 second 1/8th should be good for a low-mid 13 second car and that's pretty respectable.

97EldoCoupe
02-02-09, 07:39 PM
Very true Destroyer, but that would take the challenge away from all of us hard-headed stubborn people who insist there's a little more to be had with these mechanical piles of camshafts and bolts......

The Northstar is quite respectable even stock, but I know that more can be had out of those 4.6 liters. Putting it on the bottle is one easy way, adding a S/C is another that doesn't look too awfully difficult.

BlackCaddy87
02-02-09, 07:48 PM
Instead of all this crap with tunes and headers and whatever why don't you guys that want to go fast simply nitrous them? A few years ago I ran into a rather ratty looking N* Eldorado at the drag strip running mid 8's in the 1/8th mile using nothing except nitrous. It's cheap, no guesswork involoved and it's effective. A mid 8 second 1/8th should be good for a low-mid 13 second car and that's pretty respectable.

these guys want their car to be exceptionally faster without the negative side effects of any conventional mod.

97EldoCoupe
02-02-09, 07:48 PM
I'm leaning more toward intake and exhaust than anything else. If I had all the time in the world, I'd be building two engines for test purposes: Both VIN 9's:

Engine #1 would be naturally aspirated but with intense intake and exhaust mods, and a full port & polish job.

Engine #2 would be left stock except for throwing on a custom intake with the Eaton M90 supercharger, and whatever electronic changes are necessary to accomodate the S/C.

Since I only barely have time to build up one engine, I'm combining #1 and #2:

Starting with a 1999 VIN 9 4.6 liter Northstar V8

-ported and polished heads
-custom one-off headers and X-over pipe
-Eaton M90 Supercharger from a '97 GTP, also ported, with a different sized pulley than stock
-custom fabbed aluminum intake with a built-in intercooler
-of course, studs to keep the heads down
-possibly of using the roller cam heads from a 2001 STS and the 1999 pistons to lower compression just a bit

This engine, once complete (whenever that will be, if that will be) is going in my '98 STS.

I'm not going to throw any numbers out yet because I have no idea what this is going to pull but I've got a number in my mind that I'm hoping for.

BlackCaddy87
02-02-09, 07:53 PM
so you're saying the supercharger from a 3800 V6 will fit on the northstar V8?

97EldoCoupe
02-02-09, 07:54 PM
It will when I get through with it

dwight.j.carter
02-02-09, 07:56 PM
AJ is working on the SC now not sure of the progress though. Yes the m90 fits it's just a matter of re tunning the engine which he can do and how to hook up the belt to the pully.

97EldoCoupe
02-02-09, 08:05 PM
The Eaton M90 is suitable for engines sized from 3.0 liters to 5.0 liters. The blower speed will have to be increased and this is not good, but they do it to 3800's all the time as well. With enough intercooling hopefully the compression won't be too much of an issue, but using the 01 heads and the valve reliefed pistons in the '99 block will drop the compression a bit anyways. It will be less than 10.0:1, I just have to do the math to get the exact number. The difference is the valve reliefs, they will lower the compression just a hair more to aid in running boost.

97EldoCoupe
02-02-09, 08:10 PM
Now to increase compression on a N/A engine to gain more power, bolt on the 4.0 Aurora heads on any 93-99 Northstar and you'll get a CR of approx. 11.8:1. Install the 00 flat top pistons along with the heads from a 95-99 Aurora, you'll likely be hitting 12.0:1.

GM left us some options here.

The Aurora heads have the same port sizes, but smaller chambers and smaller intake valves (by very little)- now you have to figure out if the added compression outweighs the flow loss from the smaller valves. With some head work, these losses can probably be turned around. But the heads will bolt right in place.

The Northstar CAN be modified.

97EldoCoupe
02-02-09, 08:12 PM
Then use the 4.6 VIN 9 intake cams in the Aurora heads as long as the valve-to-piston clearance allows. If there was room, have the heads machined for the 4.6 intake valves.

How many of you would pay for an engine upgrade package that actually "DYNO test" proved to produce 350-375 HP that would install without flaws in your FWD Cadillacs? This being naturally aspirated. Another package would be supercharged and producing slightly more. I'm not talking BS here- I won't advertise that I "can" or "have" done it until I actually have proof both on paper and down the 1/4 mile track. I mean serious, proven gains, and reasonably priced packages.

Submariner409
02-02-09, 08:54 PM
BlackCaddy87, Please explain the "negative side effects of any conventional mod".

When the engine and control package allows, "conventional mods" generally return small measurable horsepower and performance increases while NOT destroying the vehicle driveability. The name of the game is to produce a reliable, comfortable, strong daily driver, not a AA Fuel rail.

Destroyer
02-02-09, 09:07 PM
these guys want their car to be exceptionally faster without the negative side effects of any conventional mod.Headers, superchargers, tunes, you name it..............all conventional mods and they don't apply to the N* other than the relatively small strides AJ has accomplished. The N* is NOT a new motor, it's been around for close to 2 decades (in 4 years) and NOTHING has been done. A. because of the car it's typically found in and B. the overly complex mess of an engine that it is. Nitrous is an easy alternative and is "on demand" so any negative side effects of conventional mods will be eliminated. Anyone that thinks the first supercharger or header won't be causing tons of other unforseeable problems like check engine lights or blown 02 sensors and driveability issues is mistaken.

Ur7x
02-02-09, 09:07 PM
these guys want their car to be exceptionally faster without the negative side effects of any conventional mod.

Don't we all. :rolleyes: This is called a "free lunch" and as the old saying goes..

Don't you think that the engineers at GM would want a "exceptionally faster" car "without the negative side effects"... If those mods exist wouldn't some engineer at GM have done this..

AJxtcman
02-02-09, 09:11 PM
Don't we all. :rolleyes: This is called a "free lunch" and as the old saying goes..

Don't you think that the engineers at GM would want a "exceptionally faster" car "without the negative side effects"... If those mods exist wouldn't some engineer at GM have done this..

They have done that and do you know how?

NorthStarGXP
02-02-09, 09:46 PM
Instead of all this crap with tunes and headers and whatever why don't you guys that want to go fast simply nitrous them? A few years ago I ran into a rather ratty looking N* Eldorado at the drag strip running mid 8's in the 1/8th mile using nothing except nitrous. It's cheap, no guesswork involoved and it's effective. A mid 8 second 1/8th should be good for a low-mid 13 second car and that's pretty respectable.

I have thought long and hard about nitrous, and have not ruled it out. There is a guy on the Bonneville forum (GXP Vemom) that has been running a Zex 125 wet kit on a 2004 Bonnie GXP since 2006 with zero problems. I think he's gone through about 15 bottles at this point. With Nitrous, there are no engine management issues because the fuel and nitrous are sprayed after the MAF, and the PCM does not know anything about it, it just hums happily along.

NOS is great for the track or for a night of street racing. But I really don't do either of those...well maybe once per year at the track. I like to feel the power every day. And I never know when I will need it, those little situations pop up on the street without warning. I'm not up to turning the bottle on and off each day. Some guys do leave it on all the time, but sooner or later the solenoids may fail and you can get a big boom or an empty bottle. I want a daily driver with power just under my right foot.

We will see if my PCM gets fully cracked to handle boost, if so I will keep this car for quite a while. As it is, I am getting bored. I'd sell it for something faster, but resale sucks and I absolutely love the car other than the mediocre performance. With a blower or rear-mount turbo, I'd keep it another 5 years or more.

NorthStarGXP
02-02-09, 09:53 PM
They have done that and do you know how?

AJ, for a man with all the answers, you sure do ask a lot of questions. :banana: :Poke: :hide:

Ur7x
02-02-09, 09:55 PM
Exactly right. Why are the headers and pistons not for sale?

Hey UR7x I was planning on responding to your PM, your mailbox is full....:D

Sorry 'bout that... PM away :thumbsup:

Ur7x
02-02-09, 10:01 PM
They have done that and do you know how?

Yes, they got to 320HP by adding variable timing to the valves.

97EldoCoupe
02-02-09, 10:07 PM
They also got 320 HP out of the 4.0 Aurora motor with VIN 9 intake cams, a different exhaust system and PCM changes, from what I understand.

dkozloski
02-02-09, 10:09 PM
It sure sounds neat when you hold muster on 320 horses. They all answer up.

97EldoCoupe
02-02-09, 10:11 PM
That 320 HP Aurora motor was in the Shelby Series I.

PSRmark
02-02-09, 10:45 PM
Hey all,

I am the tech that built this car. I will try to answer as many questions as I can. This car was done a while back, so my memory is foggy, but I do have most of the specs written down somewhere.

quick history on me, I am an avid racer. I was a master tech for a cadillac dealership in AZ for 8 years. I've built my share of cars ranging from Mustangs to Cadillacs, but never an import...sorry, it's just not my thing.

going off of memory alone

the motor was built with JE pistons w/ 11.5:1 compression
I believe JE rods as well, but it's been a while.

The heads were ported and polished
again from memory
301 cfm on the intake
207 cfm on the exh

Custom headers were built, but were a one off. 1 5/8 primary was used to a random technology catalytic convertor. We did not plan to mass produce these, so no Jig was ever made

Custom cams were made by ISKY for us. I'll see if I can locate the specs. They were a little choppy for a cadillac but the customer was ok with his buick. The idle is up a little, we HAD to adjust it slightly for the cams. Cadillac people may not like that, but this is customers choice, it's his car not yours.

Tomorrow I will upload the dyno graph.

Factory was around 225 fwhp
after we got done it landed around 316 fwhp


I'm sorry I don't have the time to read through ALL of the BS, but I will try to answer any real questions.


Mark-

BlackCaddy87
02-02-09, 10:47 PM
why should i be impressed with the northstar when hyundai is pushing 375...freaking hyundai. if i was searching for a new luxury car it wouldnt have the northstar in it. i'm thinking a new G37

PSRmark
02-02-09, 11:45 PM
I have thought long and hard about nitrous, and have not ruled it out. There is a guy on the Bonneville forum (GXP Vemom) that has been running a Zex 125 wet kit on a 2004 Bonnie GXP since 2006 with zero problems. I think he's gone through about 15 bottles at this point. With Nitrous, there are no engine management issues because the fuel and nitrous are sprayed after the MAF, and the PCM does not know anything about it, it just hums happily along.

NOS is great for the track or for a night of street racing. But I really don't do either of those...well maybe once per year at the track. I like to feel the power every day. And I never know when I will need it, those little situations pop up on the street without warning. I'm not up to turning the bottle on and off each day. Some guys do leave it on all the time, but sooner or later the solenoids may fail and you can get a big boom or an empty bottle. I want a daily driver with power just under my right foot.

We will see if my PCM gets fully cracked to handle boost, if so I will keep this car for quite a while. As it is, I am getting bored. I'd sell it for something faster, but resale sucks and I absolutely love the car other than the mediocre performance. With a blower or rear-mount turbo, I'd keep it another 5 years or more.

You do realize they make remote bottle openers right? Not saying you should put the smack on the car, just wanted to make sure you knew about this.

thebigjimsho
02-03-09, 12:14 AM
why should i be impressed with the northstar when hyundai is pushing 375...freaking hyundai. if i was searching for a new luxury car it wouldnt have the northstar in it. i'm thinking a new G37
Oh, that's right. Because the Hyundai V8 and the Northstar were developed around the same time...

BlackCaddy87
02-03-09, 12:35 AM
the LS1 was an awesome motor when it was built, still is my opinion. but that motor lived its life and chevy moved on. Cadillac has been putting this engine in cars since 93...its time to let go.

TaVern
02-03-09, 12:46 AM
hmm...

97EldoCoupe
02-03-09, 12:52 AM
Why let one of the best engines ever produced, go? My favorite engines:

Oldsmobile small block and big block V8
Chevy small block V8
Cadillac Northstar V8 4.6/4.0
Buick 3800, preferrably the L67

Everyone will have their favorites. I would rather see that Cadillac would keep producing the Northstar, even if it meant upgrading certain things. So how can Hyundai get 375 HP out of their N/A 4.6? That would probably be tuned to the MAX. What about reliability? I read an article about those engines, but how long have they actually been tested? I know everyone's going to say remember: "Northstar HGs", but I'd rather have a HG blow out on me than have a broken connecting rod, or worn bearings, snapped chains, etc. All in all the N* is a good engine. I'm sure as hell not ready to get out of a Cadillac and hop into a Hyundai.

TaVern
02-03-09, 12:54 AM
I am the tech that built this car. I will try to answer as many questions as I can.

Mark-

You built the D3 Buick Lucerne? I only ask because there have been several other cars mentioned here. Thanks in advance.

-Justin

BlackCaddy87
02-03-09, 01:02 AM
well with a 10 year 100,000 mile warranty i'd suggest the reliability is pretty damn good

PSRmark
02-03-09, 01:13 AM
You built the D3 Buick Lucerne? I only ask because there have been several other cars mentioned here. Thanks in advance.

-Justin


Sorry Yes, the D3 Buick Lucerne. Actually Buick built it, I just modded it :)

BlackCaddy87
02-03-09, 01:17 AM
good luck Mark

TaVern
02-03-09, 01:24 AM
Factory was around 225 fwhp
after we got done it landed around 316 fwhp


Mark-


Sorry Yes, the D3 Buick Lucerne. Actually Buick built it, I just modded it :)

Mark,

I appreciate your reply.

How does 316 fwhp translate into "400HP Northstar Engine" advertising per your (D3) thread title?

-Justin

BlackCaddy87
02-03-09, 01:26 AM
316 to the wheels and about 400 at the crank. kinda like your 300 hp glorious V8 only putting down a pathetic 215 hp

TaVern
02-03-09, 01:30 AM
316 to the wheels and about 400 at the crank.

I'm fully aware of wheel vs. crank. 400 at the flywheel and 316 at the wheels is a big difference. I'm just curious as to how Mark accomplished this.

BlackCaddy87
02-03-09, 01:31 AM
well guys they gave you the facts you wanted. i guess this is about the time you start throwing rocks and call him a liar.

congrats on the car Mark

BlackCaddy87
02-03-09, 01:33 AM
I'm fully aware of wheel vs. crank. 400 at the flywheel and 316 at the wheels is a big difference. I'm just curious as to how Mark accomplished this.

well do the math. if you guys claim the motor loses 25% then a 400hp car should only put down 300 to the wheels.

TaVern
02-03-09, 01:40 AM
well do the math. if you guys claim the motor loses 25% then a 400hp car should only put down 300 to the wheels.

I never claimed anything. I was only asking Mark a question as a Cadillac enthusiast.

BlackCaddy87
02-03-09, 01:44 AM
thats what many people go by on this site. 316 is very impressive...i'm curious to see the charts tomorrow

PSRmark
02-03-09, 02:09 AM
I would imagine 316whp is probably somewhere close to the 400 flywheel mark, but I don't do the calculations, I just build it and dyno it.

The numbers given were from memory, I don't have the specs in front of me. I will have to get you the exact numbers tomorrow when i return to the shop.

TaVern
02-03-09, 02:21 AM
I would imagine 316whp is probably somewhere close to the 400 flywheel mark, but I don't do the calculations, I just build it and dyno it.

The numbers given were from memory, I don't have the specs in front of me. I will have to get you the exact numbers tomorrow when i return to the shop.

I look forward to seeing the dyno sheets tomorrow! Thank you, Mark :thumbsup:

-Justin

TaVern
02-03-09, 02:23 AM
kinda like your 300 hp glorious V8 only putting down a pathetic 215 hp

It's about time you stop talking and start learning about my "glorious V8 only putting down a pathetic 215 hp", you ignorant douche. Did you want crank or wheel? No matter. I'll give you both.

Industry Comparable SuperFlow AutoDyn

FWHP

http://gallery.me.com/yuhas/100295/fwhp-20dyno/web.jpg

RWHP

http://gallery.me.com/yuhas/100295/rwhp-20dyno/web.jpg

BlackCaddy87
02-03-09, 02:36 AM
i didn't mean "Your" V8. i'm sorry i should've been clear. its late and i'm bored off my @ss. you have a V...I envy you. the 4t80 is known for taking a lot of power away from the northstar. sucks to have a 300hp car and only get 225 to the wheels.

should be studying but keep getting side tracked

TaVern
02-03-09, 02:45 AM
i didn't mean "Your" V8. i'm sorry i should've been clear. its late and i'm bored off my @ss. you have a V...I envy you. the 4t80 is known for taking a lot of power away from the northstar. sucks to have a 300hp car and only get 225 to the wheels.

should be studying but keep getting side tracked

All apologies then. Focus on studying so you can be better than me.

BlackCaddy87
02-03-09, 02:50 AM
you have a V...one of the reasons i'm studying. my lawyer has an sts-v and i love it. we always get side tracked talking about cars. i always nag him to take it to the track but he'd let me have his wife before i could have his car.

TaVern
02-03-09, 03:37 AM
you have a V...one of the reasons i'm studying. my lawyer has an sts-v and i love it. we always get side tracked talking about cars. i always nag him to take it to the track but he'd let me have his wife before i could have his car.

More studying, less internet posting, young grasshopper.

Distractions will keep you from the lifestyle I enjoy.

AJxtcman
02-03-09, 06:38 AM
Hey all,

I am the tech that built this car. I will try to answer as many questions as I can. This car was done a while back, so my memory is foggy, but I do have most of the specs written down somewhere.

quick history on me, I am an avid racer. I was a master tech for a cadillac dealership in AZ for 8 years. I've built my share of cars ranging from Mustangs to Cadillacs, but never an import...sorry, it's just not my thing.

going off of memory alone

the motor was built with JE pistons w/ 11.5:1 compression
I believe JE rods as well, but it's been a while.

The heads were ported and polished
again from memory
301 cfm on the intake
207 cfm on the exh

Custom headers were built, but were a one off. 1 5/8 primary was used to a random technology catalytic convertor. We did not plan to mass produce these, so no Jig was ever made

Custom cams were made by ISKY for us. I'll see if I can locate the specs. They were a little choppy for a cadillac but the customer was ok with his buick. The idle is up a little, we HAD to adjust it slightly for the cams. Cadillac people may not like that, but this is customers choice, it's his car not yours.

Tomorrow I will upload the dyno graph.

Factory was around 225 fwhp
after we got done it landed around 316 fwhp


I'm sorry I don't have the time to read through ALL of the BS, but I will try to answer any real questions.


Mark-

This is 100% on Target. I see NO problems with this NUMBER at all
Do the MATH! :mad2:

CIWS
02-03-09, 08:21 AM
I already have a S/C on my N* and it's working just fine :stirpot:

Ur7x
02-03-09, 09:22 AM
This is 100% on Target. I see NO problems with this NUMBER at all
Do the MATH! :mad2:

Do the math again... This lucerne started with a 275 HP motor

(275/225) x 316 = 386

If you do the math he is overstating HP by atleast 13 HP.
And still no photos and no proof...

And to BlackCaddy I have never seen a 300HP Vin 9 cars put down less then 245 at the dyno. Most clock in the 250 range.
Mine was 252.

The 225 number is a VIN H 275 HP car...
You had better do more studying!

dkozloski
02-03-09, 10:18 AM
Aw! C'mon Ur7x! It just ain't fair to be confronting them with facts, math and physics. Now they'll have to open up the tolerances on their BS filters even more. You're making it even worse.

stbtt
02-03-09, 10:45 AM
Do the math again... This lucerne started with a 275 HP motor

(275/225) x 316 = 386

If you do the math he is overstating HP by atleast 13 HP.
And still no photos and no proof...

And to BlackCaddy I have never seen a 300HP Vin 9 cars put down less then 245 at the dyno. Most clock in the 250 range.
Mine was 252.

The 225 number is a VIN H 275 HP car...
You had better do more studying!

Can we see your dyno graph of this car putting down 253 stock. My 03 sts vin 9 has not hit the 250 mark with cai and exhaust only hit 243. Stock it put down a best of 215 and that was trying to put down the best it could. The only Cadillacs I have heard of putting down those numbers are not stock cai and exhaust. Not saying your full of it, just would like to see the graph for a comparison. How much torque did you put down and is this in you 02sts?

thebigjimsho
02-03-09, 11:35 AM
well with a 10 year 100,000 mile warranty i'd suggest the reliability is pretty damn goodYou can get a 100,000 mile warranty from GM on an '06 or '07 V. Does that mean its rear diff is pretty damn good?

Submariner409
02-03-09, 12:08 PM
:hmm: There are several abbreviations bouncing around in here - which are correct for what vehicle....?

HP - SAE or net ? They are quite different. One takes accessories into account, the other doesn't.
FWHP - Front Wheel HP or FlyWheel HP ?
RWHP - The only one that means what it looks like: RearWheel HP.

Gamesmanship......but it makes a difference.

BlackCaddy87
02-03-09, 01:23 PM
Do the math again... This lucerne started with a 275 HP motor

(275/225) x 316 = 386

If you do the math he is overstating HP by atleast 13 HP.
And still no photos and no proof...

And to BlackCaddy I have never seen a 300HP Vin 9 cars put down less then 245 at the dyno. Most clock in the 250 range.
Mine was 252.

The 225 number is a VIN H 275 HP car...
You had better do more studying!

look up what most vin 9 guys get and tell me again you've never seen one dyno under 250...count how many dyno below 240. they had an 18% loss stock which is VERY good for our car. i really can't see only an 18% loss out of the 4t80, it may not be 25 like some people claim but i'm sure it is more than 18. maybe the stock motor was a little more than 275. if you figure it for a conservative 20% loss then the motor hp goes up to 395

dkozloski
02-03-09, 01:30 PM
:hmm: There are several abbreviations bouncing around in here - which are correct for what vehicle....?

HP - SAE or net ? They are quite different. One takes accessories into account, the other doesn't.
FWHP - Front Wheel HP or FlyWheel HP ?
RWHP - The only one that means what it looks like: RearWheel HP.

Gamesmanship......but it makes a difference.
You're neglecting IntHP - Internet HP. The conversion factor is whatever it takes to fit the story.

PSRmark
02-03-09, 01:40 PM
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh30/d3mark1/Picture044.jpg

here is a picture of the motor out of the car. I can not find any other images. I'm not sure if I took any. as a shop we work on a lot of cars, so it's not always possibly to stop and take a picture of EVERY project we do. I have tons of STS-V and XLR-V pictures, and even some 07 CTS-V ones, but this was just a buick build. Think of the last time you had a case half reseal done at the dealership, did they take pictures of every step? probably not.

The front header pipe on this car had to be routed underneath the car and not between the trans. 1 reason why I didn't want this for mass production. #2 was because you would have to remove the trans to pull the old system out.

The dyno data that I have found so far in our folders was 308 front wheel horse power, with a spike at 311 hp, so I don't count that. we did take the car back for a final tune and it made 316, but I can not find that graph, nor do I see the base line run, I was not here at D3 when they did it.

I did find the graph that that read 225 front wheel, but it was not for this car, it was for a 9 vin Eldo. So I would imagine the Lucerne numbers to be about 20-25 lower. But again I have no prof right now, I am still looking and I WILL try to find everything on that car.


Feel free to contact ISKY on the cam specs, otherwise I'll see if they can fax them over to me. I'm also going to see if I can get the short block build sheet faxed over as well. But I'm sure you'll call BS on all that anyways, so I figured someone can just call ISKY on the cam specs if you don't believe.

AJxtcman
02-03-09, 01:52 PM
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh30/d3mark1/Picture044.jpg

here is a picture of the motor out of the car. I can not find any other images. I'm not sure if I took any. as a shop we work on a lot of cars, so it's not always possibly to stop and take a picture of EVERY project we do. I have tons of STS-V and XLR-V pictures, and even some 07 CTS-V ones, but this was just a buick build. Think of the last time you had a case half reseal done at the dealership, did they take pictures of every step? probably not.

The front header pipe on this car had to be routed underneath the car and not between the trans. 1 reason why I didn't want this for mass production. #2 was because you would have to remove the trans to pull the old system out.

The dyno data that I have found so far in our folders was 308 front wheel horse power, with a spike at 311 hp, so I don't count that. we did take the car back for a final tune and it made 316, but I can not find that graph, nor do I see the base line run, I was not here at D3 when they did it.

I did find the graph that that read 225 front wheel, but it was not for this car, it was for a 9 vin Eldo. So I would imagine the Lucerne numbers to be about 20-25 lower. But again I have no prof right now, I am still looking and I WILL try to find everything on that car.


Feel free to contact ISKY on the cam specs, otherwise I'll see if they can fax them over to me. I'm also going to see if I can get the short block build sheet faxed over as well. But I'm sure you'll call BS on all that anyways, so I figured someone can just call ISKY on the cam specs if you don't believe.

Thanks

AlBundy
02-03-09, 02:08 PM
Keep it comming.:D

dkozloski
02-03-09, 02:32 PM
It looks to me like it could be a picture of anybody's motor. With the dirty oil on the valve gear it's at best a "before" picture anyway. Nothing to be seen here.

97EldoCoupe
02-03-09, 02:40 PM
Hmmm.....

Fire and Ice
02-03-09, 02:52 PM
It looks to me like it could be a picture of anybody's motor. With the dirty oil on the valve gear it's at best a "before" picture anyway. Nothing to be seen here.

At the risk of sounding rude, if you don't like what we're providing, STOP ASKING.

dkozloski
02-03-09, 02:58 PM
At the risk of sounding rude, if you don't like what we're providing, STOP ASKING.
I'm not asking for anything. I'm standing on the sidelines making observations as an uncommited bystander. I don't have a dog in this fight but I am interested in maintaining a level playing field.

97EldoCoupe
02-03-09, 03:02 PM
Craig, do you have any pictures of the header pipe under the subframe?

PSRmark
02-03-09, 03:07 PM
Aw! C'mon Ur7x! It just ain't fair to be confronting them with facts, math and physics. Now they'll have to open up the tolerances on their BS filters even more. You're making it even worse.

So this is you being an innocent bystander?


in·sti·gate (nst-gt) KEY

TRANSITIVE VERB:
in·sti·gat·ed , in·sti·gat·ing , in·sti·gates
To urge on; goad.
To stir up; foment.

This sounds a little more accurate.

PSRmark
02-03-09, 03:10 PM
Craig, do you have any pictures of the header pipe under the subframe?

I'm sorry, no we don't. I've looked everywhere. basically it is was an ovalized pipe that was run underneath to help with ground clearance.

dkozloski
02-03-09, 03:10 PM
So far it looks to me that there's not much chance of confusing D3 with TraCo Engineering, Keith Black, or Robert Yates on street cred.

97EldoCoupe
02-03-09, 03:12 PM
I just called Isky Racing Cams, Tim Isky will be back in about 1 hour and he has the specs on the cams. The cams were re-ground to D3's specs. I won't have the time to call Tim back but if anyone else wants to, 323.770.0930 is the number.

NorthStarGXP
02-03-09, 03:13 PM
Whoa, some new information! 2 weeks after the questions were asked, we are getting to what would have been a much better starting point for the post. Finally we get a claimed figure on the rwhp that could arguably correlate to an estimated 400 horsepower at the flywheel, and a more details on the modifications.

Mark, unlike the original poster, you seem like a straight-up guy based on what I am seeing so far. Please keep the information coming. Maybe a stated 400 hp was a bit of an overstatement, but I am open to hearing whatever information you can provide. I will say that the original poster should probably not be making bold claims in a technical forum. At minimum, when asked how the horsepower was measured, “let me check with the tech”, “I will find out and let you know” would have been better than no answer.

Just a few more comments, I noticed that the idle in the video sounds just like my GXP (the Pontiacs have a louder exhaust then Buicks or Caddys from the factory). I can hear that it is on a fast idle, maybe 1100 rpm, just like mine does during warmup. I know that you can’t measure cam specs by a video of the idle, but it doesn’t sound choppy to me. On the flip side, I do hear a faint metallic ringing that could be interpreted as headers.

Anyway, I did have a few specific questions…did you retain the factory airbox? And on the headers, what size primary tubes and collectors did you go with? Were you able to make the primary tubes equal length?

Thanks.

dkozloski
02-03-09, 03:18 PM
It's hard to believe that an achievement as monumental as creating a header pipe leading from the front to the back underneath the car wouldn't be documented in every way possible. This is the Holy Grail of FWD Cadillac mods. It'd be likely to make the front page of the New York Times above the fold.

Fire and Ice
02-03-09, 03:20 PM
I'm not asking for anything. I'm standing on the sidelines making observations as an uncommited bystander. I don't have a dog in this fight but I am interested in maintaining a level playing field.

No, you're just making remarks. If you read Mark's post with the images, he did say it was the motor OUT of the car, which would imply 'before' images. He also said he couldn't find any of the 'after' images. Sorry, he's still looking and he's looking for the dyno chart to 'prove' the car put down those numbers, but of course we half expect someone to say it's not the Lucerne or we doctored the image... seems to be a pattern here among a select few.

Simply put, we build a custom one off package for a customer with a Buick Lucerne. He's very happy with his car and we are (or were until we kept getting bashed) pretty happy with the end results. The car did really well, all things considered and on the customer's allotted budget. Dr. Design was just trying to share something with everyone that we're pretty proud of. That's what this forum is about right? Car enthusiasts sharing their stories and passions?

Since we're not in the business of modifying the Lucerne or even its near relative the FWD STS, I personally wouldn't view this as any different than an individual posting images of his or her car they had work done on. We simply wanted to share something everyone. Thank you.

dkozloski
02-03-09, 03:27 PM
No, you're just making remarks. If you read Mark's post with the images, he did say it was the motor OUT of the car, which would imply 'before' images. He also said he couldn't find any of the 'after' images. Sorry, he's still looking and he's looking for the dyno chart to 'prove' the car put down those numbers, but of course we half expect someone to say it's not the Lucerne or we doctored the image... seems to be a pattern here among a select few.

Simply put, we build a custom one off package for a customer with a Buick Lucerne. He's very happy with his car and we are (or were until we kept getting bashed) pretty happy with the end results. The car did really well, all things considered and on the customer's allotted budget. Dr. Design was just trying to share something with everyone that we're pretty proud of. That's what this forum is about right? Car enthusiasts sharing their stories and passions?

Since we're not in the business of modifying the Lucerne or even its near relative the FWD STS, I personally wouldn't view this as any different than an individual posting images of his or her car they had work done on. We simply wanted to share something everyone. Thank you.
Fair enough.

Fire and Ice
02-03-09, 03:33 PM
Anyhow, if anyone has any more questions regarding this project please let us know. Thank you.

NorthStarGXP
02-03-09, 04:11 PM
No, you're just making remarks. If you read Mark's post with the images, he did say it was the motor OUT of the car, which would imply 'before' images. He also said he couldn't find any of the 'after' images. Sorry, he's still looking and he's looking for the dyno chart to 'prove' the car put down those numbers, but of course we half expect someone to say it's not the Lucerne or we doctored the image... seems to be a pattern here among a select few.

Simply put, we build a custom one off package for a customer with a Buick Lucerne. He's very happy with his car and we are (or were until we kept getting bashed) pretty happy with the end results. The car did really well, all things considered and on the customer's allotted budget. Dr. Design was just trying to share something with everyone that we're pretty proud of. That's what this forum is about right? Car enthusiasts sharing their stories and passions?

Well, a tech forum leans a little more toward tech than stories and passion, or at least it should IMO. Please don't get too carried away playing wounded duck. It looks really bad when you post up about a 400 horsepower Northstar and can't even provide details about how you came up with the number. At best, even with what you are claiming, it is an estimated 400 horsepower, but the word "estimated" is not in the headline of this post. In the end, the car is not around anymore, and nothing can be absolutely proven one way or the other. But if you post up a reasonable amount of detail and / or a dyno sheet, it definitely helps, at least from my perspective.


Since we're not in the business of modifying the Lucerne or even its near relative the FWD STS, I personally wouldn't view this as any different than an individual posting images of his or her car they had work done on.

I don't view it any differently either. If an individual had made the initial posts in this tech forum and couldn't answer basic questions, my reaction would have been the same.

PSRmark
02-03-09, 04:31 PM
you are correct, the idle is up around 1100, but it does settle around 850when it warms up. The reason being is the computer would set random missfire codes at 600 rpm due to the cams. It was also a little to bump at that rpm. The metal tingy sound you are hearing is the the headers. They are 1 5/8 primaries as mentioned before w/ 2 1/4 collectors. The primary tubes are not equal length, that would "almost" be impossible. The factory airbox was retained to keep the PCM cooling air duct in effect. but a K&N drop in filter was used.


Whoa, some new information! 2 weeks after the questions were asked, we are getting to what would have been a much better starting point for the post. Finally we get a claimed figure on the rwhp that could arguably correlate to an estimated 400 horsepower at the flywheel, and a more details on the modifications.

Mark, unlike the original poster, you seem like a straight-up guy based on what I am seeing so far. Please keep the information coming. Maybe a stated 400 hp was a bit of an overstatement, but I am open to hearing whatever information you can provide. I will say that the original poster should probably not be making bold claims in a technical forum. At minimum, when asked how the horsepower was measured, “let me check with the tech”, “I will find out and let you know” would have been better than no answer.

Just a few more comments, I noticed that the idle in the video sounds just like my GXP (the Pontiacs have a louder exhaust then Buicks or Caddys from the factory). I can hear that it is on a fast idle, maybe 1100 rpm, just like mine does during warmup. I know that you can’t measure cam specs by a video of the idle, but it doesn’t sound choppy to me. On the flip side, I do hear a faint metallic ringing that could be interpreted as headers.

Anyway, I did have a few specific questions…did you retain the factory airbox? And on the headers, what size primary tubes and collectors did you go with? Were you able to make the primary tubes equal length?

Thanks.

PSRmark
02-03-09, 04:43 PM
on a side note- cadillac hotrod performance in san diego supplied the first set of flanges for the headers. They were warped and the thickness was different on each one. If memory serves me correctly they did send us good ones later, but I could be wrong. we did make some for the XLR-V and STS-V but the port design is different than these are.

AlBundy
02-03-09, 05:06 PM
It would be nice if we could get the customer to post.

Fire and Ice
02-03-09, 05:31 PM
It would be nice if we could get the customer to post.

It would, but last time I checked he wasn't a forum member.

PSRmark
02-03-09, 05:34 PM
It would be nice if we could get the customer to post.

I love your avatar...thats awesome! :)

The customer with this buick does not have an account here. Maybe if it's possible we can get him to email us with a status and see if it's ok for us to post it here?

Fire and Ice
02-03-09, 06:31 PM
Final Dyno Tune On The Buick Lucerne Was 311.4 whp and 286.8 Lbs Tq.

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa72/mistuman/LucerneFinalTune.jpg

TaVern
02-03-09, 06:40 PM
311 flywheel hp.

urbanski
02-03-09, 06:45 PM
labelled flywheel, not rear wheel.

urbanski
02-03-09, 06:51 PM
my 400hp stock V made 346

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/9953/dynobbtx2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)