: Potential Mods and Power Gains



CadV
01-07-09, 03:46 PM
Had a good chat with Jess from WAIT4ME performance and he was sharing the gains he is experiencing from different mods.

Here are some tidbits:

1) Headers he only picked up 9rwhp. He said the manifolds are good.

2) Exhaust he only picked up 6rwhp.

3) Swapping the intake tube did not improve anything. Running an open filter did not help. Cutting the bottom of the stock box he picked up 5rwhp. Here is the thread: http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-2004-2009/1040945-found-one-more-restriction-2009-v.html

4) Changing the crank pulley he picked up 60rwhp. Swapping the blower pulley caused slip.

5) New cam he picked up 90rwhp.

Florian
01-07-09, 03:51 PM
seeing that this is just an LS3 motor w/a blower strapped on it...you will see some seriously significant improvements with cam changes.


F

CadV
01-07-09, 03:55 PM
seeing that this is just an LS3 motor w/a blower strapped on it...you will see some seriously significant improvements with cam changes.


F

Is the motor not the same as the ZR1? If you could explain would really appreciate it because I read a couple threads stating the same just didn't understand what they meant.

Florian
01-07-09, 04:17 PM
its a bit different as the ZR1 has a higher compression ratio. I think that is the only difference...anyone else wanna chime in?


F

Cadillac Tony
01-07-09, 04:35 PM
Different rods, pistons, cam and valves. Different Supercharger. Dry sump vs. wet sump. Other than that, they're identical. :lol:

Seriously though, the LSA might be called a "detuned ZR1 engine" by the magazines, but it's really more like a Supercharged base 'vette engine.

jvp
01-07-09, 04:37 PM
its a bit different as the ZR1 has a higher compression ratio. I think that is the only difference...anyone else wanna chime in?

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/01/14/detroit-2008-2009-lsa-6-2l-superchar/

Pretty good write-up of the differences, right there. It's already been quoted here on the Caddy forums quite a while ago, too.

jas

CadV
01-07-09, 04:42 PM
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/01/14/detroit-2008-2009-lsa-6-2l-superchar/

Pretty good write-up of the differences, right there. It's already been quoted here on the Caddy forums quite a while ago, too.

jas

Thanks jvp

verbs
01-07-09, 05:27 PM
Had a good chat with Jess from WAIT4ME performance and he was sharing the gains he is experiencing from different mods.

Here are some tidbits:

1) Headers he only picked up 9rwhp. He said the manifolds are good.

2) Exhaust he only picked up 6rwhp.

3) Swapping the intake tube did not improve anything. Running an open filter did not help. Cutting the bottom of the stock box he picked up 5rwhp. Here is the thread: http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-2004-2009/1040945-found-one-more-restriction-2009-v.html

4) Changing the crank pulley he picked up 60rwhp. Swapping the blower pulley caused slip.

5) New cam he picked up 90rwhp.

At the end of the day his motor will be on borrowed time. The cast pistons will likely be a weak link. I shudder at the thought of running 14-15psi on pump gas with cast pistons.

30rwhp with a cam sounds like a mild cam was used, or one that wasn't very well matched to the setup. I believe he just started throwing random cams in as opposed to doing the smart thing and having one designed for the car.

CadV
01-07-09, 06:53 PM
At the end of the day his motor will be on borrowed time. The cast pistons will likely be a weak link. I shudder at the thought of running 14-15psi on pump gas with cast pistons.

30rwhp with a cam sounds like a mild cam was used, or one that wasn't very well matched to the setup. I believe he just started throwing random cams in as opposed to doing the smart thing and having one designed for the car.

I should of been more clear in my post. Each item is added to stock. So the cam only was giving him 90rwhp. The mods are not dynoed together they were done individually.

I was incorrect on a couple numbers as well. Headers gave him 6rwhp and the catback exhaust gave him 15rwhp.

Luna.
01-07-09, 10:07 PM
Had a good chat with Jess from WAIT4ME performance and he was sharing the gains he is experiencing from different mods.

Here are some tidbits:

1) Headers he only picked up 9rwhp. He said the manifolds are good.

2) Exhaust he only picked up 6rwhp.

3) Swapping the intake tube did not improve anything. Running an open filter did not help. Cutting the bottom of the stock box he picked up 5rwhp. Here is the thread: http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-2004-2009/1040945-found-one-more-restriction-2009-v.html

4) Changing the crank pulley he picked up 60rwhp. Swapping the blower pulley caused slip.

5) New cam he picked up 90rwhp.

Great info!!

Exhaust for me would be solely for sound, nothing more.

I'm interested on #4 though. If a tune yields, say, ~40-50 rwhp, does changing the crankshaft really do that much??

CadV
01-07-09, 10:42 PM
Great info!!

Exhaust for me would be solely for sound, nothing more.

I'm interested on #4 though. If a tune yields, say, ~40-50 rwhp, does changing the crankshaft really do that much??

Yeah he went smaller on the crank pulley which creates more boost. What verbs said scares me though. I am thinking the same thing as you Luna. Tune, pulley and leave the car alone. The other mods do not seem worth it. I might do the airbox mod to hear the SC whine :)

Luna.
01-08-09, 03:56 PM
Yeah he went smaller on the crank pulley which creates more boost. What verbs said scares me though. I am thinking the same thing as you Luna. Tune, pulley and leave the car alone. The other mods do not seem worth it. I might do the airbox mod to hear the SC whine :)

Smaller crank pulley created more boost?? Really?? That would seem strange... :hmm:

Also, apologies for being slow, but I'm still confused about the gains with and without the crank pulley swap. It appears to me that the crank pulley swap ISN'T worth it, as a tune alone generated some decent gains and/or the pulley swap didn't generate that much of a gain. What am I missing?

Than again, who knows exactly what a tune alone will yield in terms of rwhp, as some members got larger results than others

CadV
01-08-09, 04:04 PM
Smaller crank pulley created more boost?? Really?? That would seem strange... :hmm:

Also, apologies for being slow, but I'm still confused about the gains with and without the crank pulley swap. It appears to me that the crank pulley swap ISN'T worth it, as a tune alone generated some decent gains and/or the pulley swap didn't generate that much of a gain. What am I missing?

Than again, who knows exactly what a tune alone will yield in terms of rwhp, as some members got larger results than others

From what he told me he did not dyno the car with multiple mods. He had a stock car and he did the pulley swap then dynoed it. He then removed the pulley mod and installed the tune and dynoed it. If he dynoed the car with multiple mods he didn't share those numbers with me.

The Tony Show
01-08-09, 04:07 PM
Smaller crank pulley created more boost?? Really?? That would seem strange...

I think he meant a BIGGER crank pulley. Changing the pulley on the newer Eatons is a bitch, so just changing the thing that's spinning the blower pulley (the crank pulley) yields the same result- higher blower rpm at the same specific engine rpm.

If a good pulley is made where the only larger area is the one that the blower belt rides on, there's no need to worry about overdriving the other accessories. We talked about that a long time ago in here, before the cars came out.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/130204-mods-hp.html#post1389833

Dr. Design
01-08-09, 05:18 PM
Correct bigger drive pulley. It's the same thing we do for the STS-V's when increasing boost pressure... It is not advised to change/tamper/remove the upper pulley due to the fact that GM considers this a NON-Servicable part. So if you screw it up, you have to purchase a brand new blower assembly w/intercooler....

Thanks,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac


I think he meant a BIGGER crank pulley. Changing the pulley on the newer Eatons is a bitch, so just changing the thing that's spinning the blower pulley (the crank pulley) yields the same result- higher blower rpm at the same specific engine rpm.

If a good pulley is made where the only larger area is the one that the blower belt rides on, there's no need to worry about overdriving the other accessories. We talked about that a long time ago in here, before the cars came out.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/130204-mods-hp.html#post1389833

CadV
01-08-09, 05:21 PM
I think he meant a BIGGER crank pulley. Changing the pulley on the newer Eatons is a bitch, so just changing the thing that's spinning the blower pulley (the crank pulley) yields the same result- higher blower rpm at the same specific engine rpm.

If a good pulley is made where the only larger area is the one that the blower belt rides on, there's no need to worry about overdriving the other accessories. We talked about that a long time ago in here, before the cars came out.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/130204-mods-hp.html#post1389833


Correct bigger drive pulley. It's the same thing we do for the STS-V's when increasing boost pressure... It is not advised to change/tamper/remove the upper pulley due to the fact that GM considers this a NON-Servicable part. So if you screw it up, you have to purchase a brand new blower assembly w/intercooler....

Thanks,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac

Thanks for the correction

CadV
01-08-09, 05:25 PM
Do you guys think our pistons can handle the extra boost with a pulley mod?

Dr. Design
01-08-09, 05:35 PM
Well there is still a good deal of development that still needs to be done for the new CTS-V before we get to that point. From our early develop & testing we already noticed a few other areas of concern prior to the pistons being an issue. But with additional boost (psi amount TBD), in theory, you are certainly on borrowed time.... The question is how much time. But again we have not finished research, development, nor validation yet so we cannot say for sure. We like to take our time with our R&D process to ensure that we create dealership friendly modifications.

Thanks,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac






Do you guys think our pistons can handle the extra boost with a pulley mod?

Luna.
01-08-09, 06:18 PM
Once again, I'd be just shocked if the motor/car couldn't handle, say, an additional 75 rwhp. That just doesn't seem like it's too much of an increase, but what do I know... :confused:

The Tony Show
01-08-09, 06:22 PM
I agree Luna. I've seen several people saying things like "I guess this motor is already tuned to the ragged edge" in response to things like intake and headers not giving big increases, but I think that's a big misconception. Bolt-ons giving little to no improvement just means that GM did a good job designing the factory exhaust/intake- it doesn't mean the engine is already on the edge of what it can handle.

As long as people don't go turning up the boost without increasing fuel and making the proper timing changes, I don't see why the LSA can't handle plenty more. The simple fact that manufacturers have bean counters who anticipate warranty costs and parts failures means that everything coming out of GM, Ford or any other "mass market" company has had the wick turned down a little bit from full to ensure people don't go breaking them.

verbs
01-08-09, 06:26 PM
I should of been more clear in my post. Each item is added to stock. So the cam only was giving him 90rwhp. The mods are not dynoed together they were done individually.

I was incorrect on a couple numbers as well. Headers gave him 6rwhp and the catback exhaust gave him 15rwhp.


A few more thoughts based on your updated info.....

Headers make the car run richer, and these cars come pig rich from the factory as is. If the car wasn't leaned out/tuned after the headers there's probably some horsepower left on the table.

I can't believe that with only a cam only, especially with no tune, this car made 90rwhp. No way.

z71burb
01-08-09, 06:53 PM
At the end of the day his motor will be on borrowed time. The cast pistons will likely be a weak link. I shudder at the thought of running 14-15psi on pump gas with cast pistons.

not that its in the same category, but i used to own a 2002 harley davidson edition f150 that had a slightly detuned version of the supercharged lightning motor in it. that motor too had cast pistons and connecting rods, and i made 15-16 psi for over 70K miles with a safe tune, while driving it like i stole it. ples, that truck weighed a hell of a lot more. its all about the tuning and how its driven when it comes to longevity. now, if youre constantly gonna go to redline and powershift all the time, then yes, nothing will prevent the motor from venting a rod through the block or burning a hole through a piston.


on another note, i wonder how long it will be before someone does a twin turbo install with a nice front mount intercooler in place of the eaton.

Dave Golder
01-08-09, 09:16 PM
4) Changing the crank pulley he picked up 60rwhp. Swapping the blower pulley caused slip.

5) New cam he picked up 90rwhp.

90RWHP from a cam swap...Is this from the 430RWHP baseline? I am not sure how a V can baseline at 430. Everyone I have seen is 463-472. Lowest on any dyno I have seen or know about is on a dyno dynamics and that was 458. Smaller Blower Pulley caused no slip on my car. We beat on it for a good 10 runs on the dyno tuning it and then on the track and I-10 for another 20 minutes before we loaded it. Even 50RWHP (going from 470) it would have to be a wild ass cam.

wait4me
01-08-09, 09:58 PM
People are more than welcome to redyno any of the cars on a different dyno. A gain is a gain no matter what dyno it is on. The one i use is right. You can argue all you want about it. A dyno is just a TOOL to show gains.... The track says the rest...

As for camshaft. You dont think it is possible to improve on a 480 lift camshaft from stock??? LOL GM themselves said the cam they used was small.


I posted dyno runs from an auto i tuned 2 weeks ago on ls1tech. ODDLY all 14 dynoed CTS V 2009 cars on the dyno where ALL near the same value as the 438 the manual does.. Maybe you need to dyno your car on a dyno that is not inflated like the hennesy hp cars usually are.. Im not out to prove anything / start crap/ just show / help out what people can actually gain and not waste thier money on crap.


No matter what the dyno reads at the begining. If it shows a gain, there was a gain.

And as for your tune, I will bet you the car i can make more hp than what you did.

Dave Golder
01-08-09, 10:14 PM
People are more than welcome to redyno any of the cars on a different dyno. A gain is a gain no matter what dyno it is on. The one i use is right. You can argue all you want about it. A dyno is just a TOOL to show gains.... The track says the rest...

As for camshaft. You dont think it is possible to improve on a 480 lift camshaft from stock??? LOL GM themselves said the cam they used was small.


I posted dyno runs from an auto i tuned 2 weeks ago on ls1tech. ODDLY all 14 dynoed CTS V 2009 cars on the dyno where ALL near the same value as the 438 the manual does.. Maybe you need to dyno your car on a dyno that is not inflated like the hennesy hp cars usually are.. Im not out to prove anything / start crap/ just show / help out what people can actually gain and not waste thier money on crap.


No matter what the dyno reads at the begining. If it shows a gain, there was a gain.

And as for your tune, I will bet you the car i can make more hp than what you did.

WTF......Where did I say a cam would not make a gain? I never posted my pulley numbers either. Some people know them, but I have not posted it. So you really think I would give a high reading on a stock car so I could say my headers and exhaust only made 20 instead of 60......And if you read my original post I said the dyno does not mean crap as it is just a baseline number. LOL No doubt you are the man. I bow down to you sir.

CadV
01-09-09, 12:41 AM
I am not going to get in the middle of this but I will say... A shop willing to share numbers to help others not waste money is rare. Most shops will not warn anyone, create a mod, fudge the numbers, and sell it.

So any shop doing that for us thank you.

wait4me
01-09-09, 09:53 AM
An explination of why i think my dyno numbers are right.

GM dynos them in a test cell with VERY free flowing exhaust and a free flowing intake to get thier motor horse power results to post in the specs. BUT that just shows the potential of the car if you have a good intake and exhaust. That just means, that if you dump this engine in a test cell and use tuned headers, open mufflers, and a tube with a maf on it then it will dyno 556hp.

When a manufacturer posts the hp ratings that dont mean that the engine is actually making that amount in the package they put it in. The stock exhaust and intake are restrictive. That in part brings the ACTUAL horsepower down alot WHEN THE ENGINE WAS PUT INTO THE CTS. You can prove this from the math.

OK, Stock auto dynos 446.95. "7 more hp than a manual shows but probably due to the auto not having 1:1 gear"

NOW lets add the hp gains to that from "Fixing" the exhaust and intake for the engine.

29 hp is what was gained from the 2 mods as shown in the dyno, So lets add that exact amount..

We now have 446.95 plus 29 = 475.95 horsepower. That is with no physical changes to the engine itself. Only is ability to breath... So now, lets do the math on how much the engine is actually making at the crank itself.

475.95 hp times .18 " will show how much to add to the number with drive train loss" = 85.671 horse power.

So with 18 percent drive train loss as shown above, you take 475.95 and add 85.671 which shows the ACTUAL engine at the crank making 561.62 horsepower




Just because an oem says an engine makes a certain horsepower, dont mean it will make that amount when they stuff it into a car and the other parts are restrictive.

jvp
01-09-09, 10:09 AM
475.95 hp times .18 " will show how much to add to the number with drive train loss" = 85.671 horse power.

So with 18 percent drive train loss as shown above, you take 475.95 and add 85.671 which shows the ACTUAL engine at the crank making 561.62 horsepower

ARRRRRGHHHHHHH!!!!!!

This is not how math is done, for crying out loud. Where did you guys learn to do percentages? Mars?

If your drive train loss is 18%, you DO NOT add 18% to the rear wheel number to get the flywheel number. You divide the rear wheel number by .82.

475.95/.82 = 580.43HP

jas

wait4me
01-09-09, 10:10 AM
I forgot to add, When they quote horsepower it is when they ship it as is on a crate like you would buy a motor for a streetrod. It only comes with the engine itself. The exhaust and airbox are not included.

CIWS
01-09-09, 10:12 AM
LOL No doubt you are the man. I bow down to you sir.


Just in case you need it for future posts, here's some from the smiles collection (graphics always help a presentation) ;)

:worship: :bows:






:pop2:

Mikels
01-09-09, 10:52 AM
Do you know what 'SAE Certified Rated Power' means? GM started the idea of a standard test to commonize how manufactures rate engine power. (look up SAE J1349).

This dictates that all systems are as installed in the car. Induction, exhuast, even inlet air temps (based on real world data). There is no 'low restriction induction or exhaust used, no 'ice bath' intercoolers.

Test must be witnessed by third party to get certified.

All GM Powertrains since the C6 Z06 have been SAE certified power, and that is the power you will get.

If you noticed, many imports were down rated in power when they started following this test process.

wait4me
01-09-09, 11:12 AM
Are you meaning SAE j2723? That just states that they CAN use that standard if they are to say they are certified. On GM CTSV window sticker they say the LSA in our cars is a 6.2L variable valve train motor" You saying that is correct too???

No where on the website do i see it showing in the specs of the engine that the ratings they show are SAE J2723 certified.

website they say: http://www.cadillac.com/cadillacjsp/model/po_specification.jsp?model=ctsv&year=2009&section=Powertrain

wait4me
01-09-09, 11:18 AM
Manufacturers who advertise their engine power and torque ratings as Certified to SAE J1349 or SAE J1995 shall follow this procedure. Certification of engine power and torque to J1349 or J1995 is voluntary, however, this power certification process is mandatory for those advertising power ratings as "Certified to SAE J1349".

Luna.
01-09-09, 01:48 PM
ARRRRRGHHHHHHH!!!!!!

This is not how math is done, for crying out loud. Where did you guys learn to do percentages? Mars?

If your drive train loss is 18%, you DO NOT add 18% to the rear wheel number to get the flywheel number. You divide the rear wheel number by .82.

475.95/.82 = 580.43HP

jas

:histeric:

JVP is correct & his math is accurate. What's funny to me is that he's posted the correct way to calculate it several times, yet few seem to be paying attention...

jvp
01-09-09, 02:14 PM
JVP is correct & his math is accurate.

Math is hard. Let's go shopping!

Here's an exercise for those that still don't believe me. Any time you add a number to another number, you should be able to reverse that addition with subtraction and get the starting results, right?

In other words, take 10 and add 20. You'll get 30. Now take 30 and subtract 20. What do you get? 10. All good.

Take 556 and subtract 18%. What do you get?

Take that result and add 18% to it. What do you get?

I'll bet you a paycheck it's not 556. :-)

jas

wait4me
01-09-09, 02:47 PM
Sorry i just reread what i posted. Sorry it was early and i was in a hurry. I fixed the post.

wait4me
01-09-09, 02:54 PM
An explination of why i think my dyno numbers are right.

GM dynos them in a test cell with VERY free flowing exhaust and a free flowing intake to get thier motor horse power results to post in the specs. BUT that just shows the potential of the car if you have a good intake and exhaust. That just means, that if you dump this engine in a test cell and use tuned headers, open mufflers, and a tube with a maf on it then it will dyno 556hp.

When a manufacturer posts the hp ratings that dont mean that the engine is actually making that amount in the package they put it in. The stock exhaust and intake are restrictive. That in part brings the ACTUAL horsepower down alot WHEN THE ENGINE WAS PUT INTO THE CTS. You can prove this from the math.

OK, Stock auto dynos 446.95. "7 more hp than a manual shows but probably due to the auto not having 1:1 gear"

NOW lets add the hp gains to that from "Fixing" the exhaust and intake for the engine.

5hp for intake, 10 for exhaust "in stock form with no tuning" hp is what was gained from the 2 mods as shown in the dyno, So lets add that exact amount..

We now have 446.95 plus 15 = 461.95 horsepower. That is with no physical changes to the engine itself. Only is ability to breath... So now, lets do the math on how much the engine is actually making at the crank itself.

556 hp X .82 = 455.92 at the wheels @ 18 percent drivetrain loss via manual trans.
556 hp X .80 = 444.8 hp at the wheels with 20 percent via automatic trans.

Just because an oem says an engine makes a certain horsepower, dont mean it will make that amount when they stuff it into a car and the other parts are restrictive.

Sorry for the post previous. It was pre caffine. :D

Mikels
01-09-09, 03:20 PM
GM dynos them in a test cell with VERY free flowing exhaust and a free flowing intake to get thier motor horse power results to post in the specs. BUT that just shows the potential of the car if you have a good intake and exhaust. That just means, that if you dump this engine in a test cell and use tuned headers, open mufflers, and a tube with a maf on it then it will dyno 556hp.

When a manufacturer posts the hp ratings that dont mean that the engine is actually making that amount in the package they put it in. The stock exhaust and intake are restrictive. That in part brings the ACTUAL horsepower down alot WHEN THE ENGINE WAS PUT INTO THE CTS. hp X .80 = 444.8 hp at the wheels with 20 percent via automatic trans.

Just because an oem says an engine makes a certain horsepower, dont mean it will make that amount when they stuff it into a car and the other parts are restrictive.

You are very much mistaken. The whole reason for going to a standard (SAE J1349) proceedure is to eliminate any variability from installed conditions, and operating parameters.

Any engine SAE certified will make exactly what the manufactuer says.

Induction pressure drop, exhaust backpressure, intake air temp, coolant temp, etc. are all controlled to operating conditions as seen installed in the vehicle.

You previously quoted from the SAE site - for a few bucks, you can buy the actual SAE Certified Power data from SAE. For a few few more bucks, you can buy the detailed report that includes everything related to the dyno test. Including all operating parameters seen as installed on the dyno.

Just log into the SAE site and search for J1349 LSA.

darjae
01-21-09, 12:13 AM
Didn't want to hijack the newer threads you posted....what where the final HP gains you got before Barrett-Jackson? I know you were where working hard to push the V2 on a deadline.....Haven't seen the results, yet!

Hogg
01-23-09, 11:20 AM
A couple guys were asking about the Zr1's LS9 and the V2's LSA differences


LS9 vs. LSA

fuel shutoff 6600rpm-6200rpm
Blower displacement 2.3L blower-1.9 L blower
Connecting rod forged titanium-forged powdered metal
Intercooler dual smaller intercooler-single larger intercooler
Crankshaft forged steel-forged steel
Intake valve titanium-steel
exhaust Valve Hollow-Solid
Pistons Forged-Hypereutectic
Exhaust manifold Stainless Steel-High slicon high molybdenum cast iron
Main Bearing Caps Forged Steel-Nodular Iron

Power SAE(cerified)638@6500rpm-556@6100rpm
Torque 604 lb/ft@3800rpm-551 lb/ft@3800rpm


so far as the SAE Certified spec. The specific intake and exhaust for that specific platform must be used. This spec goes so far as to mandate specific oil levels. the Asian makes were particularily hit hard. No more rounding up to the neastes 5 or 10 hp.
The classic example IMO is the Caddy STSV and XLRV.
Both use the 4.4L Northstar with a supercharger.

STSV is rated at 469hp@6400rpm 439lb/ft@3900rpm
XLRV is rated at 443@6400rpm 414 lb/ft@3900rpm

AKAIK These differences are due to intake and exhaust only, possibly some small calibration differences.

peace
Hog