: How to install an Eaton/GM M90 Supercharger on a 2003 Northstar



AJxtcman
01-05-09, 01:28 PM
Hey guy's this will be a GM 3800 type Supercharger installed on a 2000 to 2003 Northstar. This will have the OEM PCM in it also. It will NOT have any other ECM added.
:duck:

Necrosan
01-05-09, 02:14 PM
Any way to put one of these on an older Northstar?

Submariner409
01-05-09, 03:38 PM
Will the install fit the existing sideways FWD engine and under the hood of a 2000 - 2003 Seville/Deville without extensive mechanical or bodywork ?

AJxtcman
01-05-09, 04:02 PM
will the install fit the existing sideways fwd engine and under the hood of a 2000 - 2003 seville/deville without extensive mechanical or bodywork ?


yes.

Submariner409
01-05-09, 04:11 PM
NOW we're getting somewhere. Should prove to be a real sleeper hoot. Save your bucks..........I wannit........

97EldoCoupe
01-05-09, 04:28 PM
AJ you and I think alike.....

In a 1/2 hour I'm headed to pick up my M90 SC. I'm working on an older model N* (late 90's) though. What are we going to do about power steering? Electric? Run it from the water pump drive somehow? Or relocate it....

Necrosan
01-05-09, 04:38 PM
I think the power steering pump will be fine.. you may lose access to the cap when the supercharger is mounted. (if this is a top mount setup)
Lengthening the belt should suffice.

AJxtcman
01-05-09, 05:27 PM
I think the power steering pump will be fine.. you may lose access to the cap when the supercharger is mounted. (if this is a top mount setup)
Lengthening the belt should suffice.

I don't think so.

Pictures will be coming soon of the plans

NorthStarGXP
01-05-09, 06:10 PM
I'm in if this ever becomes available for a 2005 LD8.

AJxtcman
01-05-09, 06:18 PM
OK guys

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/SuperCharger/58db_1.jpg
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http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/avatar/uuno1.gif

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Ok this is the first picture I can show. I need to get the plans Photo-Shopped together


http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/SuperCharger/Superchargerfront.jpg

AJxtcman
01-05-09, 06:19 PM
2 belts:lildevil:

97EldoCoupe
01-05-09, 08:52 PM
Lookin' Good AJ :thumbsup:

Is this on your Fiero?

Destroyer
01-05-09, 09:10 PM
Don't make me my words man! This for real? If so, nice!

CadillacSTS42005
01-05-09, 09:25 PM
this will be worth it for the very reason Destroyer will eat his words lol

that said if this gets done im totally game AJ
ill have to throw the Z on the back burner

68Futura
01-05-09, 09:27 PM
Sounds like a lot of fun! But I dont understand how it could be done with the OEM PCM, it must still require some sort of reprogramming, right?

CadillacSTS42005
01-05-09, 09:31 PM
yea...
and thats what AJ can do, tune and program the N* ecm...
i can vouch for it

AJxtcman
01-05-09, 09:42 PM
careful



:bighead:


look at the picture of the setup. it is a GM proto type. :hmm:

Raze
01-06-09, 12:35 PM
AJ, what fuel pump and injectors will you be using? This the stock compression ratio piston'd engine? Will you be after-cooling or just dumping straight into a custom made intake? I wish you luck sir...

dwight.j.carter
01-06-09, 01:58 PM
I will be interested to see how this pans out. If I can add it to my STS I would be interested.

dwight.j.carter
01-06-09, 02:49 PM
Now that I think of it this probably isn't a good idea as I was recently put on driver probation for to many tickets. lol

97EldoCoupe
01-06-09, 05:50 PM
AJ and I are both working on this, I believe he's further into it than I am. If it works out well there might be a complete bolt-on kit on the market soon. I'm doing a 95-99 style Northstar and AJ's doing the 00-03 style. I'm leaving the PCM fine-tuning to AJ- that's his specialty. He knows what he's doing.

I just got back from my uncle's funeral - since he died on Saturday everything's sort of been put on the back burner.

Once I have the custom intake finished and the M90 bolted on my '98 STS I'll be taking it down the 1/4 mile and doing a dyno run with it. The M90 is not going to be left stock either. I have no idea exactly what numbers that STS will be putting to the rear wheels but I'm figuring on around 400 HP at the flywheel. Maybe a little more. No promises, but we'll see.

eyekandyboats.inc
01-06-09, 06:11 PM
MMM i want one!

Raze
01-06-09, 09:57 PM
Once I have the custom intake finished and the M90 bolted on my '98 STS I'll be taking it down the 1/4 mile and doing a dyno run with it. The M90 is not going to be left stock either. I have no idea exactly what numbers that STS will be putting to the rear wheels but I'm figuring on around 400 HP at the flywheel. Maybe a little more. No promises, but we'll see.

You'd better be upgrading your fuel pump, injectors, get a wideband O2 on there before doing anything with it. I know AJ has options for tuning but most are not to retune the fuel map w/o throwing codes in an OEM setup. He's working on his project in his Fiero with the N* mated to a Getrag manual trans so the features disabled via the PCM when there's a discrepancy between the MAF and MAP sensor is no biggie.

I spent alot of time looking and finally found a promising piggyback since it's been done on a N* of our vintage with success. Check Power Perfect's SMT6 or 8, call Bob Ida at Ida Automotive: http://www.idaautomotive.com/

I spoke with him about a month ago, he's got a full stock 2003 OEM N* w/OEM PCM & Harness and 4T80E trans in his brother's 1948 Tucker turbo'd and piggybacked. After speaking with him there really shouldn't be a problem patching it in and tuning it, I wish I had the $400 or so and I'd be slapping one on mine just for giggles to prove it can be done after spending a few weeks working on my wiring diagram and workarounds for splicing in a MegaSquirt (I've built and tuned one on a turbo ford 2.3L).

Tuning is easy if you understand the underlying equations which are all freely and easily findable online...

GizmoQ
01-07-09, 01:03 AM
Count me in! And I just passed on an offer of an M90 for $200 bucks Damn!

N0DIH
01-07-09, 02:46 AM
Watch Craigslist, I picked up a M90 for a T-bird for $50, needs rebuilding, but rebuildable still..

AJxtcman
01-07-09, 07:42 AM
You'd better be upgrading your fuel pump, injectors, get a wideband O2 on there before doing anything with it. I know AJ has options for tuning but most are not to retune the fuel map w/o throwing codes in an OEM setup. He's working on his project in his Fiero with the N* mated to a Getrag manual trans so the features disabled via the PCM when there's a discrepancy between the MAF and MAP sensor is no biggie.

I spent alot of time looking and finally found a promising piggyback since it's been done on a N* of our vintage with success. Check Power Perfect's SMT6 or 8, call Bob Ida at Ida Automotive: http://www.idaautomotive.com/

I spoke with him about a month ago, he's got a full stock 2003 OEM N* w/OEM PCM & Harness and 4T80E trans in his brother's 1948 Tucker turbo'd and piggybacked. After speaking with him there really shouldn't be a problem patching it in and tuning it, I wish I had the $400 or so and I'd be slapping one on mine just for giggles to prove it can be done after spending a few weeks working on my wiring diagram and workarounds for splicing in a MegaSquirt (I've built and tuned one on a turbo ford 2.3L).

Tuning is easy if you understand the underlying equations which are all freely and easily findable online...

Rave the car has been the test mule for over a year. It has a Wide-Band and EGT on the car and we really don't use it for tuning. I would recomend to anyone not to use the Wide-Band for dirrect tuning.

I have read a lot from some well known tuners. The Wide-Band is not the ticket. Tuning with the Narrow-Band 100% and checking your comanded AFR with the Wide-Band is the way to go.

So your tune the car out with the Narrow-Band or even a Wide-Band and under let just say WOT the PCM commands the AFR to 13.1. If you are looking at the Wide-Band and you think you are tuning it to 12.6 to 1 you are going to have a HUGE problem.
You would need to make sure that the Wide-Band was reading what the PCM is commanding NOT what you want it to be. Then you need to adjust the commanded AFR for the load condition. :D

The 2000 to 2005 injectors won't operate at + 15% PSI. If you raise the Fuel pressure they Hydraulic closed!
I don't recall what the 2000 to 2003 injectors flow at, but the 2006 injectors can handle increased fuel pressure. I don't know what they flow and I haven't even looked that up. We talked about checking them out for a swap, but we were pumping a 300 crank HP of Nitrous through the car and the stock Fuel Pump and Injectors held up with No Problems.
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Bert/N2O/HPIM3766.jpg

AJxtcman
01-07-09, 07:45 AM
Just like all the other work I have done to the car this will be done at the dealer. :sneaky:

I don't have any spare time to do this on the side. I have to get my house put back together and up for sale.

This may take some time to get all worked out.

It will be a great build

Raze
01-07-09, 12:49 PM
Rave the car has been the test mule for over a year. It has a Wide-Band and EGT on the car and we really don't use it for tuning. I would recomend to anyone not to use the Wide-Band for dirrect tuning.

I have read a lot from some well known tuners. The Wide-Band is not the ticket. Tuning with the Narrow-Band 100% and checking your comanded AFR with the Wide-Band is the way to go.

So your tune the car out with the Narrow-Band or even a Wide-Band and under let just say WOT the PCM commands the AFR to 13.1. If you are looking at the Wide-Band and you think you are tuning it to 12.6 to 1 you are going to have a HUGE problem.
You would need to make sure that the Wide-Band was reading what the PCM is commanding NOT what you want it to be. Then you need to adjust the commanded AFR for the load condition. :D


AJ, in this case, I'm going to say you're wrong and ANYONE modifying an engine w/NO2 or FI should get a wideband. It sounds like you're not datalogging/using your wideband output, but in order to use that info you also need to know other things like MAP, IAT, etc. Proper tuning on a FI engine is so simple once you have a wideband, I know this from experience. I'm going to point you to MegaSquirt's tuning theory page because it's one of the best writeups from a practical and theoretical standpoint: http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/tune.htm . I'm not sure you're following how a wideband works, it's not less sensitive over the narrow-band region, it's the same as a narrowband there, it just allows you to see lower and higher AFRs outside the range of a narrowband, it's like looking out a 1'x1' window (narrow-band) and a picture window (wide-band), you see the same thing, but with a wideband you see more. It is INCREDIBLY helpful when you run rich or lean so you know instantaneously how much you are and if you need to back off if all of a sudden you're at 17:1 at 5000rpms. What you are talking about, I think, is close-loop operations, in which the feedback from the O2 (among other sensors) provides the PCM with information it can then use to decide on how rich or lean the engine is running against a commanded AFR and therefore how to adjust fuel, spark, timing required. That's how it should be once you've got a good open-loop map from which to work, that's how all cars do it, they adjust the fuel paramater based on a baseline fuel map, if they didn't you'd need some serious processing power to keep up in real time and adjust the fuel adquatly and in a timely manner to driver and ambient specific changes. Also, if a sensor failed you'd be screwed, that's why all close-loop controllers use a base map, you can read about it in our FSMs when a sensor fails it defaults timing or fuel to a default (i.e. a base map), I worked on aircraft engine control systems for Pratt & Whitney for years, even jet engines have base fuel maps in case of sensor failures :)

Now as for tuning theory, quickly, tuning with a narrow-band requires starting very rich and then leaning out (to be safe), it's alot of trial and error and is time consuming (I KNOW!) mostly because once you go lean outside the range of the narrowband you no longer know how lean you've gone or how quickly you got there. Tuning using a wideband output with data logging offers you an equation/stoich based method to very quickly dial in your VE. Yes it involves math, yes it is so simple a caveman can do it.

Newer tuners and versions of MS allow automatic calculation of your VE (and therefore fuel required). I found MS-I's to be slow to react and can run quite lean, therefore my buddies and I run out the car, let it go pig rich, and recalculate our tables, in a few hours we had a really good running setup that is dialed into our desired AFR, and once you know your setup you can change the table values by hand w/out calcing cause you'll know where they need to be to achieve a given AFR. If you're tuning for peak power you're going to want to start around 12.5:1, leaner will get you better economy, richer will cause idle issues and you'll be wasting gas, below about 11-11.5 you can expect at higher RPMs to potentially backfire due to all the unburned gas loading up in the exhaust, again I've seen this on our track car.

Do some duty cycle calcs to determine how much injector you'll need at your max boost level, you'll prolly find the 19# undersized, I have a spreadsheet around somewhere with all the calcs, I may be able to get it to you, I think at 7# of boost you're going to want at least 35#s (to be safe and keep the DC under 85%, above that and you'll most likely hydro-loc them).

Fuel pump calcs can be done w/your injector sizing calcs, again I think we need fuel flow in the neighborhood of 200 lph at 7# of boost which was more than the stock pump unless you ran an inline fuel pressure regulator and upped the pressure. A 255 lph in tank Walbro only costs $100 so it's worth it for the added peace of mind that you won't overrrun the fuel pump capacity under higher boost.

Again, goodluck and I'm very interested in your progress.

N0DIH
01-07-09, 02:29 PM
For boosted N*, I would look at the L67 injectors. 36 lb/hr, would be perfect for a boosted N*....

N0DIH
01-07-09, 02:35 PM
WB's aren't as trustworthy as people are led to believe. Remember, exhaust pressure skews the results. Lower and higher both mess it up. EGT's are much more reliable to work with, but an understanding of how to tune with them is also needed.

The PCM, with stock NB O2's has so many trims and offsets, it can manage fueling over a pretty wide range, the commanded A/F is fairly accurate, so going to the PE Table, either with a % change or preferably a Power Enrichment EQ Ratio, then you can dial in the fuel pretty accuately. Using a WB would let you confirm the ratio is correct, but the EGT's would confirm if you are burning properly. Lots of variables affect EGT's.

Raze
01-07-09, 03:11 PM
WB's aren't as trustworthy as people are led to believe. Remember, exhaust pressure skews the results. Lower and higher both mess it up. EGT's are much more reliable to work with, but an understanding of how to tune with them is also needed.

The PCM, with stock NB O2's has so many trims and offsets, it can manage fueling over a pretty wide range, the commanded A/F is fairly accurate, so going to the PE Table, either with a % change or preferably a Power Enrichment EQ Ratio, then you can dial in the fuel pretty accuately. Using a WB would let you confirm the ratio is correct, but the EGT's would confirm if you are burning properly. Lots of variables affect EGT's.

Absolutely correct, EGTs have to be considered in a system with high backpressures, otherwise you must have a freeflowing exhaust, that's why WBs are more critical in something like a turbo system where you want the lowest backpressure possible after the turbo (we run a 3" exhaust system w/testpipe and straight through muff), but it's not always that easy on a N/A w/NO2 or a Supercharged setup where even though you're running FI, technically the power is being produced by the engine itself and exhaust has to be altered to accomodate the additional power/exhaust gasses...

If someone could find out the specs on our OEM O2s that would be cool as I still don't believe the stock O2 is much better than a 14-15 AFR range which is very limited. The ability of the PCM to add additional fuel 'well' is no doubt a result of additional parameters and decent default values or scaled table multipliers being applied under these conditions. To truely go off the map, more info is needed, and that's where a good WB and potentially pyrometer for EGTs comes in for non-turbo apps...

Submariner409
01-07-09, 05:00 PM
After looking at the first two pictures, neither of which have absolutely anything to do with the 2000-2003 Seville series, and digesting all the tuning pros and cons, this is another in the line of articles which fall under the "Let's wait and see realm." To try and setup or diagnose something which does not exist through an Internet Forum is pure conjecture and speculation. Even the highly cropped pic of the GM engine install looks like a V-6.

And Raze brings up the backpressure point with turbocharging......the Corvair Spyder of 1964 had no wastegate, so a muffler with increasing backpressure as gas flow increased was used to limit the engine rpm and boost, along with limiting the size of the side draft carb and piping - and that resulting muffler spawned the hype tag of "Turbo".

AJxtcman
01-07-09, 05:03 PM
WB's aren't as trustworthy as people are led to believe.
The PCM, with stock NB O2's has so many trims and offsets, it can manage fueling over a pretty wide range, the commanded A/F is fairly accurate, so going to the PE Table, either with a % change or preferably a Power Enrichment EQ Ratio, then you can dial in the fuel pretty accuately. Using a WB would let you confirm the ratio is correct, but the EGT's would confirm if you are burning properly. Lots of variables affect EGT's.

That is what i am talking about.

Get all the fuel trims inline in closed loop. Then PE, then make sure your Commanded AFR is what you want it to be, Then check it with the wide-band.

Now the wide-band and EGT has been on the car for almost a year and the Commanded AFR is true with the Wide-band. To check this you would datalog the PCM's commanded AFR and the Wide-Band and they should be the same.

Wow I have been doing that on this car for almost a year now.

If the fuel trims were dead on and the Commanded AFR was 12.6, but the Wide-Band read 13.6. I would have some type of a problem. Either the tune or a fuel delivery issue.

AJxtcman
01-07-09, 05:06 PM
After looking at the pictures, neither of which have absolutely anything to do with the 1000-2003 Seville series, and digesting all the tuning pros and cons, this is another in the line of articles which fall under the "Let's wait and see realm." To try and setup or diagnose something which does not exist through an Internet Forum is pure conjecture and speculation. Even the pic of the GM engine install looks like a V-6.

New picture are soon to come. We already have the Blower. I just need to take it off the car and install it on the Caddy.

The MAIN Problem for me has been the Power Steering Pump. The Picture says a 1000 words to me. :D

N0DIH
01-07-09, 05:10 PM
The M35A2C Deuce and a Half was same, no wastegate, just boost restricted by backpressure. Common way to do it, cheap and effective. Just another way to manage boost pressure. A real wastegate and no or low backpressure is far more powerful, but costlier.


After looking at the first two pictures, neither of which have absolutely anything to do with the 2000-2003 Seville series, and digesting all the tuning pros and cons, this is another in the line of articles which fall under the "Let's wait and see realm." To try and setup or diagnose something which does not exist through an Internet Forum is pure conjecture and speculation. Even the highly cropped pic of the GM engine install looks like a V-6.

And Raze brings up the backpressure point with turbocharging......the Corvair Spyder of 1964 had no wastegate, so a muffler with increasing backpressure as gas flow increased was used to limit the engine rpm and boost, along with limiting the size of the side draft carb and piping - and that resulting muffler spawned the hype tag of "Turbo".

N0DIH
01-07-09, 05:32 PM
Intercooler will help PS clearance.....


New picture are soon to come. We already have the Blower. I just need to take it off the car and install it on the Caddy.

The MAIN Problem for me has been the Power Steering Pump. The Picture says a 1000 words to me. :D

AJxtcman
01-07-09, 06:43 PM
This will be the SuperCharger that I will use.

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Bert/GT500/HPIM3903.jpg

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Bert/GT500/HPIM3905.jpg

I am going to pull this off the car http://store.roushperformance.com/images/products/08/mustang/401420_385x270.jpg
and install this.http://store.roushperformance.com/images/products/08/mustang/402330_385x270.jpg

That gives me the spare SuperCharger.

Now some people know the owner (not to mention any names "Tom") and they know that Highline will flip the bill for it all.

The best part is that no expenses will be spared. One off parts can get expensive.

It just happens that he has already purchased the AFCO upgrade heat exchanger. That leaves the Roush one for the Caddy. :sneaky:

NHRATA01
01-11-09, 10:02 AM
You guys are putting an M90 on a Northstar? They heat soak badly and are pushing the limits of their efficiency on a 3.8 V6 as it is. The L67 suffers from a pretty bad case of puke and die power curve syndrome as it is, since the blower can't make the CFMs near the 6k redline. I think on a larger displacement, better breathing, and higher spinning motor like a Northstar, that blower is way too small. Step up to an M112 like what is on the '03/'04 Cobras, which has proven to easily satisfy the appetite of a 4.6 DOHC motor.

AJxtcman
01-11-09, 10:41 AM
You guys are putting an M90 on a Northstar? They heat soak badly and are pushing the limits of their efficiency on a 3.8 V6 as it is. The L67 suffers from a pretty bad case of puke and die power curve syndrome as it is, since the blower can't make the CFMs near the 6k redline. I think on a larger displacement, better breathing, and higher spinning motor like a Northstar, that blower is way too small. Step up to an M112 like what is on the '03/'04 Cobras, which has proven to easily satisfy the appetite of a 4.6 DOHC motor.

I plan on using the water intercooler.
The blower has a 2.57" pulley on it now.

Submariner409
01-11-09, 01:18 PM
Go back and read Posts 3 & 4. Coupled with NHRAT01's blower sizing observation, this thread is now way off track, and the mystery owner statement in Post #37 shifts the install to a Deville or Fiero.

M90 with water intercooler ????? For a 2000-2004 Seville ????? No bumps or bulges ????? No way...........and a 2.57" pulley is in the alternator ratio area.......about 2:1 already, and to overspeed the blower will create nightmares with mechanical heat........

I know this is devil's advocate territory, but someone needs to hold your feet to the fire.........:devil:

AJxtcman
01-11-09, 02:37 PM
Go back and read Posts 3 & 4. Coupled with NHRAT01's blower sizing observation, this thread is now way off track, and the mystery owner statement in Post #37 shifts the install to a Deville or Fiero.

M90 with water intercooler ????? For a 2000-2004 Seville ????? No bumps or bulges ????? No way...........and a 2.57" pulley is in the alternator ratio area.......about 2:1 already, and to overspeed the blower will create nightmares with mechanical heat........

I know this is devil's advocate territory, but someone needs to hold your feet to the fire.........:devil:

I said the RoushCharger CURRENTLY has a 2.57" pulley on it. That is a common upgrade. This is on a 4.6L 3 Valve engine that was 9.8 to 1 comprtession stock.

I would run a much larger pulley on this 10 to 1 Northstar.

The intercooler will be below the SuperCharger just like on a 3800

It will be going on Highlines DHS. I have logged this car to death. I have Logged the car with Nitrous. I have Tuned this PCM for the Nitrous. I have a Wide-Band sensor and an EGT on the car. I Data logged the WB and the EGT sensors also.
I know what good is and I know what bad is on THIS CAR!

I now add the Supercharger and start tuning for that. The car is all setup for that side of it.

Now back to the pulley thing. A 2.8" pulley would be to small for a 3800, but when you raise the engine and intake volume size the 2.8" is ok. Roush sells a pulley that is about 2.8" :yawn:

This is an aftermarket one for a 3800, but you get the idea.

http://www.thrashercharged.com/images/intercooler/thrasher0intercooler.jpg

http://www.thrashercharged.com/images/intercooler/ic_inlet1_id_presson_copy.jpg

http://www.thrashercharged.com/images/intercooler/ic_lower-radiator.jpg

dkozloski
01-11-09, 03:23 PM
After looking at the first two pictures, neither of which have absolutely anything to do with the 2000-2003 Seville series, and digesting all the tuning pros and cons, this is another in the line of articles which fall under the "Let's wait and see realm." To try and setup or diagnose something which does not exist through an Internet Forum is pure conjecture and speculation. Even the highly cropped pic of the GM engine install looks like a V-6.

And Raze brings up the backpressure point with turbocharging......the Corvair Spyder of 1964 had no wastegate, so a muffler with increasing backpressure as gas flow increased was used to limit the engine rpm and boost, along with limiting the size of the side draft carb and piping - and that resulting muffler spawned the hype tag of "Turbo".
I had a '64 Corvair Monza Spyder. The muffler had a big steel washer in the outlet to restrict it. I used a piece of water pipe and a big hammer to knock it out of there. I insulated the entire exhaust system with asbestos sheet, aluminum foil, sodium silicate, and stovepipe wire. With the pressure spark retard disabled you could slip the clutch against the emergency brake to get the turbo spooled up, launch, and carry the front wheels for about 200 feet for a start unequaled by any other stocker of the day. The blower boost gauge would be pinned. At that point you were dead meat because there was no way on earth to make the quick shift to second gear with the rubber gear shift mechanism. The big limiting factor in the whole deal was the clutch. When you wound it out in third it powered right through the clutch. Even a Scheiffer clutch and flywheel wouldn't hold it.

Submariner409
01-11-09, 06:35 PM
Yeah that......I drove the snot out of mine with many of the same exhaust heat saving ideas......what gave me the most trouble was the darn fan bearings. When I traded it on the '65 Chevelle it had 50 weight aircraft oil in it....the engine was shot. (and that 5-foot long shift linkage was truly slow.....)

Ever hear of a friendly service station attendant filling a Corvair "radiator" with water ?? The oil fill cap (chromed on the Spyder) looked exactly like a radiator cap, remember ?

BLKSTS
01-14-09, 01:01 PM
thats nice how does the hood fit and major work

AJxtcman
01-14-09, 01:30 PM
thats nice how does the hood fit and major work

The hood will fit fine. NO Changes.
The starter may cause me to rework the intercooler

dkozloski
01-14-09, 01:38 PM
Yeah that......I drove the snot out of mine with many of the same exhaust heat saving ideas......what gave me the most trouble was the darn fan bearings. When I traded it on the '65 Chevelle it had 50 weight aircraft oil in it....the engine was shot. (and that 5-foot long shift linkage was truly slow.....)

Ever hear of a friendly service station attendant filling a Corvair "radiator" with water ?? The oil fill cap (chromed on the Spyder) looked exactly like a radiator cap, remember ?
I had a fiberglass cooling fan with an underdrive pulley. It was bulletproof.

mazda1949
01-14-09, 05:54 PM
New picture are soon to come. We already have the Blower. I just need to take it off the car and install it on the Caddy.

The MAIN Problem for me has been the Power Steering Pump. The Picture says a 1000 words to me. :D

You guys ever consider an electric power stearing pump?
Here is a link to a good pump supplier
http://www.streetperformance.com/part-showcase/flaming-river-industries-inc/5171-flaming-river-introduces-electronic-power-steering.html

Steve (AKA mazda1949)

tateos
01-15-09, 12:54 PM
What about an electric rack like some new cars have??

97EldoCoupe
01-15-09, 05:02 PM
As long as there's a physical connection between the steering wheel and the front wheels I'm game- but this new "steer by wire" bullshit scares the living daylights out of me. What happens if a fuse blows or a circuit gets fried?

AJxtcman
01-15-09, 07:02 PM
As long as there's a physical connection between the steering wheel and the front wheels I'm game- but this new "steer by wire" bullshit scares the living daylights out of me. What happens if a fuse blows or a circuit gets fried?

drive one first.
I don't like them. The road feed back is poor. like a video game poor.

97EldoCoupe
01-15-09, 07:11 PM
AJ I believe you. Sometimes you can't improve things. Like eliminating a direct connection between the front wheels and the steering wheel- that's not an improvement. I can see the number of lives at risk now.

97EldoCoupe
01-15-09, 07:13 PM
An electric hydraulic assist is perfectly fine- that I'd be content with. I have some ideas for the power steering. When I get some time to spend on that project I'll run them by AJ and see what he thinks.

AJxtcman
01-15-09, 07:45 PM
AJ I believe you. Sometimes you can't improve things. Like eliminating a direct connection between the front wheels and the steering wheel- that's not an improvement. I can see the number of lives at risk now.

It is still a direct connection. The GM cars use a (lets see if I screw this up) Bidirectional motor on the shaft to give the assist.

All you need to do is use the setup in the picture and it will all be good.

dwight.j.carter
01-15-09, 08:39 PM
AJ = God of Northstar. :)

AJxtcman
01-15-09, 08:55 PM
AJ = God of Northstar. :)

I don't know about that. I didn't make them, but I very very much appreciate the praise

97EldoCoupe
01-27-09, 08:56 AM
Does anyone know how much boost the XLR-V's and the STS-V's are running stock? I'm trying to get a rough idea what's needed to pull those HP / TQ numbers from a 93-99 Northstar. Of course it won't be accurate but I'm just curious. I tried researching this with no luck.

On the + side, we have .2 liters more displacement to work with. And thinner cylinder walls. I think the 4.0 would be a good block as well to throw a S/C on. Slightly Thicker cylinder walls.

AJxtcman
01-27-09, 02:16 PM
Read this
4.4L information (http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/080250.html)

97EldoCoupe
01-27-09, 04:03 PM
Thanks AJ - that was a big help.

AJxtcman
01-27-09, 05:02 PM
Read this also.
SuperCharged (http://www.gmtraining.com/TMSWebtree/techlink/images/issues/ref_gds/supercharger_english.pdf)
another version SuperCharged (http://www.gmtraining.com/TMSWebtree/techlink/images/issues/aug07/TLaug07e.html#story1)
Frank T is a COF Member

Raze
01-28-09, 10:41 PM
Does anyone know how much boost the XLR-V's and the STS-V's are running stock? I'm trying to get a rough idea what's needed to pull those HP / TQ numbers from a 93-99 Northstar. Of course it won't be accurate but I'm just curious. I tried researching this with no luck.

On the + side, we have .2 liters more displacement to work with. And thinner cylinder walls. I think the 4.0 would be a good block as well to throw a S/C on. Slightly Thicker cylinder walls.

Well are we talking crank or wheel? wheel you're going to need a 15-18psi, not taking into account some thermal losses my spreadsheets and calculators can't account for, If we're only talking crank than 8-10psi. You need to remember the XLR's RWD trans is more efficient, simply due to layout, whereas the 4T80E is a power robbing bandit, too bad one of ya'll aren't building a remote mount turbo setup, cheaper, easier to fab, much faster, just lay some pipe and mount a turbo, run an oil line and return, could even get a good used turbo for cheap, hell you could setup a TT remote mount for dog$hit, even cheaper for a remote variable geometry TT setup, $2k for the full test-mule setup, I can provide details upon request...

Maxb49
02-15-09, 06:31 PM
How much money would it cost to supercharge a 2003 deville?

97EldoCoupe
02-15-09, 08:07 PM
I'm not sure yet about cost. The full package will probably run between $2800 and $3500.

What we really need is a low-cost conversion process to make the Eldos, Devilles, and STS's, RWD. Low-cost is pretty much out of the question but they have such nice bodies.

-Full aluminum tube chassis
-Either a solid rear axle or independant rear suspension
-big disc brakes all around
-The Northstar, installed longitudinally, mated to a beefed up 4T60-E
-aluminum driveshaft
-headers (easy with the engine mounted longitudinally)
-a good supercharger setup

As difficult of a conversion as this would be, the electronics would be the biggest PITA.

But this would result in one badass hot-rod Cadillac.

In March I'll be hiring a very good friend of mine to take over a large part of the HG jobs- he'll be working in the shop with me. I'll be doing the first few cars right along side him. Then I'll probably start focusing more of my time on the modifications. His fiance will be my secretary if things keep up.

N0DIH
02-15-09, 08:11 PM
4T60E or did you mean 4T80E?


I'm not sure yet about cost. The full package will probably run between $2800 and $3500.

What we really need is a low-cost conversion process to make the Eldos, Devilles, and STS's, RWD. Low-cost is pretty much out of the question but they have such nice bodies.

-Full aluminum tube chassis
-Either a solid rear axle or independant rear suspension
-big disc brakes all around
-The Northstar, installed longitudinally, mated to a beefed up 4T60-E
-aluminum driveshaft
-headers (easy with the engine mounted longitudinally)
-a good supercharger setup

As difficult of a conversion as this would be, the electronics would be the biggest PITA.

But this would result in one badass hot-rod Cadillac.

In March I'll be hiring a very good friend of mine to take over a large part of the HG jobs- he'll be working in the shop with me. I'll be doing the first few cars right along side him. Then I'll probably start focusing more of my time on the modifications. His fiance will be my secretary if things keep up.

97EldoCoupe
02-15-09, 08:28 PM
4T60- If I'm correct the 4T80 robbed more power than the 4T60. Someone please confirm this.....

I have no idea how many people would willingly spend $10k on an old Eldorado or Seville, but I seriously believe that if the interest was there, a complete conversion package could be built- a jig for the new chassis could be built to easily produce new chassis. Have the chassis ready for the bodies to be dropped on. This would take the custom work out of the equasion.

I still say I'd love my '98 STS WAY more if it was RWD.

97EldoCoupe
02-15-09, 08:33 PM
The stability system would have to be completely reprogrammed. The trans management would have to be changed entirely. Shift adapts would no longer apply- I don't think that could be adapted to the 4T60/4T80. AJ would know more on this stuff. There would be a lot involved. Steering linkage would have to be altered BIG TIME. It could be done. It has been done. But this would be a big undertaking. Definitely something I would LOVE to do.

N0DIH
02-15-09, 08:50 PM
Making a STS/ETC to RWD would be cool, even a Deville, with the rear suspension cradle like it has, if that could be pulled and a rear live axle or rear independent axle (say from a T-Bird) added, pull up the exhaust tunnel and make it wider to fit dual exhaust and a driveshaft. You can get a 4L60E/4L65E/4L70E and bolt on a V6 engine bell housing (Camaro 3800 comes to mind) to make it bolt to the N*. You will need to make a trans tunnel too. Not easy work, someone like 509Rider on here (the guy who does the low riders) has the quality work to do it.

Hood clearance would be interesting with a HEaton on there.

But the potential for awesome power is incredible.

97EldoCoupe
02-15-09, 10:43 PM
No doubt. The firebird rear-end was my first thought. And definitely true duals and headers.

Maxb49
02-15-09, 10:47 PM
Who wouldn't want a RWD Deville? GM did it's clientele yet another disservice by making their only full sized luxury car available in FWD. It's no wonder they lost so many sales to Lexus, Mercedes Benz, and BMW over the years. As awesome as a RWD conversion would be, like you said, nobody is willing to spend that kind of money (especially during these times). Many people, myself included, wouldn't mind shelling out a reasonable amount of cash for the supercharger. I'm terribly unfamiliar with custom supercharger installations. I wonder if there any books describing how to make your own custom application.

:stirpot: It's about time someone came up with a supercharger. Performance enthusiasts shouldn't have to turn to Lincoln Mark VIII's for luxury hot rods.

N0DIH
02-16-09, 12:42 AM
No kidding cost would be high. But look at people who drop $21K on a 2dr convertible option on a 93-96 Fleetwood too.... For some people, money isn't an object....

Chasespeed
02-16-09, 04:57 PM
Well, if I were going to convert my STS to RWD(something that has crossed my mind before)... FIRST thing that needs to happen, I need to buy the wife another car...:histeric:

Second, I wouldnt use an auto... a manual would have to go in... preferable a 6spd....

And, given the powering options.... well, I have a few turbos kicking around here.... HX35(almost brand new),GT38, and some other stuff...

Hmmmm.... turbo, 6spd caddy.....FUN:dance:

BUT...

Back on topic....

AJ... cant wait for the finished product man... I always enjoy reading your posts, cant wait for the outcome...

This would make the wife/kid hauler almost as fun to drive as my Cummins....

Chase

97Concours1
02-17-09, 05:33 PM
Great thread.

It's really cool to see all this input from experienced individuals, providing input and advice for this project. I would've loved to have the internet 15 years ago when I did some of this kind of stuff. Just reading this thread has answered some long standing questions that I've had when doing custom installations. I put a Supercoupe supercharger (M90) on a 3 liter 4 cyl Mercruser in an 18 foot boat, and then put an Accel DFI fuel injection system on it. My biggest problem was getting the fuel map correct (never really did). All I had was the narrow band o2 sensor. It was almost impossible to figure out how to adjust the fuel map. WOT was a shot in the dark - seat of the pants adjustment. I should have calculated the fuel flow rate for all conditions instead of trying to use the o2 sensor. Even with the poor fuel map, it made a huge improvement in power. The boat's top speed went from 42 mph to 54 mph. This was faster than the V-6's were running. And it jerked skiers up out of the water with ease. I ran 7.5 lbs of boost.

I had a question too about weather the M90 had the CFM to work on a Northstar. The Northstar is already good for 300 hp. I think the Supercoupe ran 15 psi boost and didn't put out 300 hp. I would think a much larger supercharger would be needed. It would probably give it gobs of low end torque though.

Another question for the experts on this site: Tuned runner length intakes under boost? If a tuned runner length intake (such as the Northstar's) is placed under boost, how is the peak hp range shifted? How does the change in air density in the runners, under boost, change the frequency of the tuning, and therefore the peak hp rpm?

Anyway, good luck with the project. I'll be keeping an eye on this thread to see how it works out.

Destroyer
02-17-09, 07:53 PM
What we really need is a low-cost conversion process to make the Eldos, Devilles, and STS's, RWD. Low-cost is pretty much out of the question but they have such nice bodies.

-Full aluminum tube chassis
-Either a solid rear axle or independant rear suspension
-big disc brakes all around
-The Northstar, installed longitudinally, mated to a beefed up 4T60-E
-aluminum driveshaft
-headers (easy with the engine mounted longitudinally)
-a good supercharger setup

As difficult of a conversion as this would be, the electronics would be the biggest PITA.

But this would result in one badass hot-rod Cadillac.

Here is an idea, get an XLR-V and put an Eldorado body on it! Sounds far fetched but believe me when I say your idea is more far fetched. It would not only cost less but all the mechanicals are already there. You get a wrecked car and use the chassis and then adapt the two. Welding skills would serve well here.

Destroyer
02-17-09, 08:08 PM
:stirpot: It's about time someone came up with a supercharger. Performance enthusiasts shouldn't have to turn to Lincoln Mark VIII's for luxury hot rods.
I have all the faith in the world that once Jake and AJ put their collective knowledge together they will get a better performer than this AND will not blow head gaskets, well maybe :alchi::

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Supercharged-Lincoln-mark_201726.htm

YouTube - 600 hp Lincoln Mark VIII 11.84 @ 121 mph

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/LS1-Camaroboltonssprayon_83578.htm

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Supercharged-Lincoln-mark_201726.htm

97EldoCoupe
02-18-09, 01:17 PM
Actually Destroyer, the Eldo body on the XLR-V chassis sounds like a great idea!:thumbsup: And I used to weld for a living.....

N0DIH
02-18-09, 10:23 PM
Yup, yup.....

But on the video of a 600 hp M8, 600 should be much faster than high 11's....... I would say he is going getting 400-450 to the ground on a good day....


I have all the faith in the world that once Jake and AJ put their collective knowledge together they will get a better performer than this AND will not blow head gaskets, well maybe :alchi::

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Supercharged-Lincoln-mark_201726.htm

YouTube - 600 hp Lincoln Mark VIII 11.84 @ 121 mph (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOw0-96mOpk)

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/LS1-Camaroboltonssprayon_83578.htm

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Supercharged-Lincoln-mark_201726.htm

Destroyer
02-18-09, 10:40 PM
Yup, yup.....

But on the video of a 600 hp M8, 600 should be much faster than high 11's....... I would say he is going getting 400-450 to the ground on a good day....
I agree. Did you see the first vid though, dude clicked off an an 11.0!

Edit: My supercharged '04 Mach 1 had 443 RWHP and ran 11.7 (traction issues)@121mph. Of course that was with low boost. The Mark is an auto and is a few hundred pounds more but still had the same trap speed which makes me think that he probably was running close to 500 RWHP.

Destroyer
02-18-09, 10:44 PM
Actually Destroyer, the Eldo body on the XLR-V chassis sounds like a great idea!:thumbsup: And I used to weld for a living.....Reason I brought it up is because I've seen an entire XLR-V chassis w/computer and all on Ebay in the past. If I recall the XLR-V has the trans in the rear like the Vette. The adaptation part is the bitch but with some know how and a steady plan I think it could be done.................and frankly I'd like to see it. :thumbsup:

N0DIH
02-18-09, 10:51 PM
Nice, he seems like he isn't able to hook off the line well, bet if he could get a good chassis, there is at LEAST 0.5 sec there to find with those mph numbers....

Destroyer
02-18-09, 10:57 PM
Nice, he seems like he isn't able to hook off the line well, bet if he could get a good chassis, there is at LEAST 0.5 sec there to find with those mph numbers....You are right about the the 0.5 seconds. I've seen several Cobra's and blown Mach's run solid 11.0's and even a 10.90 at the same or +1mph at the track. Reaction time takes role as well.

N0DIH
02-18-09, 11:09 PM
Friend of mine runs 10.32's @ 129 on same track (on 7 cyls, had a bent valve/damaged seat he just found), 3500 lbs or so with a small block Olds. He did a lot of work on the chassis this winter, so looking forward to seeing it run this year.

Destroyer
02-18-09, 11:15 PM
Friend of mine runs 10.32's @ 129 on same track (on 7 cyls, had a bent valve/damaged seat he just found), 3500 lbs or so with a small block Olds. He did a lot of work on the chassis this winter, so looking forward to seeing it run this year.I love Oldsmobiles. :thumbsup:

N0DIH
02-18-09, 11:19 PM
Pontiac and Olds, my favorite GM engines.....
http://www.rocketracingperformance.com/ these are the heads on the small block, D block. So for now the iron heads go back on dial in the chassis on irons, switch back to the RR heads and then engine comes out for the stroker version....

But we hope to run a while on EFI this year, we'll see and put to rest, carb or EFI on a big hp engine, which is faster......


I love Oldsmobiles. :thumbsup:

NHRATA01
02-27-09, 08:43 PM
You are right about the the 0.5 seconds. I've seen several Cobra's and blown Mach's run solid 11.0's and even a 10.90 at the same or +1mph at the track. Reaction time takes role as well.

Reaction time has zero effect on ET or trap.

Highline Cady
03-01-09, 01:44 AM
:yeah:

Maxb49
03-01-09, 11:04 PM
I've given this a lot of thought all week. Instead of a supercharger, they should focus their attention on a turbocharger. Any car can run a remote mounted turbo system, the Deville is no exception. It would be much easier than custom fabricating a supercharger for the Northstar.

NorthStarGXP
03-02-09, 12:10 PM
I agree 100%.

It's not like a rear-mount is just throw it on and go, but I'd estimate it would require 1/3 or less of the fabrication hours required to install the Eaton. The exhaust and intake piping could be accomplished by a competent exhaust shop willing to do custom work.

I don't see any insurmountable obstacles with installing the turbo. The real roadblock for any of this is getting a late-model Northstar PCM that can handle boost boost and larger injectors.

Raze
03-04-09, 10:23 AM
I've given this a lot of thought all week. Instead of a supercharger, they should focus their attention on a turbocharger. Any car can run a remote mounted turbo system, the Deville is no exception. It would be much easier than custom fabricating a supercharger for the Northstar.


I have been advocating this or a centrifugal supercharger for the past 5 years after having a lenghty discussion with Mark (turbo'd 99 STS). Even he agreed it would have been much easier and cheaper in the long run.

I have priced it out, and if you use some 'used parts' like a turbo and some cheap exhaust pipe you can build an entire system yourself (if you can weld, which I can but don't have the $$$ for this project and my XR4Ti) INCLUDING a Power Perfect SMT6 or 8 series piggyback that has been sucessfully integrated on a 2000ish N* PCM + transmission by Ida Automotive in their custom 1948 Tucker as featured in Hot Rod Magazine.

I'm getting tired of sitting on this project and would like to offer up how to do it for others in case someone was 'really interested', here's a PROTOTYPE setup only capable of UNDER 5psi of boost to protect STOCK internals AND keep from running out of duty cycle on your stock injectors/pump I did a calculation a while back and you 'should' be ok but for another $300 you could add injectors and fuel pump to be sure:

PROTOTYPE
Holset HX55 Turbo (eBay, TurboFord, TurboBrick, TurboDodge, Diesel forums, take your pick...)
T4 Exhaust Flange (eBay)
Perfect Power SMT6 Piggyback (Craigslist for used, Ida Automotive new)
Honda Intercooler (or other long/low profile eBay/Craigslist intercooler)
Shurflo 2088-343-435* (Oil scavenge pump)
PLX M-300TE (Wideband O2 - better than LC-1 since it doesn't need recalibration, we have on on our XR4Ti)
4' 4" Aluminized Steel Pipe (straight, exhaust)(Summit or racing-solutions)
1x90, 1x180 4" Aluminized Steel Pipe (bent, exhaust)(Summit or racing-solutions)
8' 3" Aluminized Steel Pipe (straight,intake) (Summit or racing-solutions)
2x90, 2x180 3" Aluminized Steel Pipe (bent, intake) (Summit or racing-solutions)
T-Bolt Clamps (eBay)
Heater Hose Couplers (NAPA)
External Wastegate (eBay, 48mm+ size)
Wastegate flange (eBay)
Hangars (exhaust shop)
Oil line + Fittings (McMaster-Carr)

I found these parts new or used for a sum total of $1400 online 2 weeks ago when I priced it out...

Here's what you'd need to upgrade your internals and transmission if you wanted RELIABLE upgraded power (say 15psi or 500ish HP):

ENGINE
8 Low Compression Forged Pistons (Arias)
8 Forged Rods (Eagle or Crower)
8 ACCEL 32 lb/hr injectors (Summit)
Walbro 255lph fuel pump (Summit)


Transmission
High Stall Torque Converter (Yank)
Phantom Grip LSD + Spring upgrade OR Engineered Performance/4T60E-HD LSD upgrader

I priced the TOTAL upgraded parts list you see above for PROTOTYPE + FULL ENGINE/TRANS BUILD for UNDER $5000, which is less than 1/3 Mark spent on his setup if you can do it yourself...

AJxtcman
03-04-09, 01:18 PM
Transmission

Phantom Grip LSD + Spring upgrade OR Engineered Performance/4T60E-HD LSD upgrader

.

That is funny. Do you know what a Phantom Grip LSD is?

AJxtcman
03-04-09, 01:25 PM
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/SuperCharger/Superchargerfront.jpg

This is the pump rolled over to the next mounting tabs. These pictures are of a 99 Deville

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/SuperCharger/PIC-0132.jpg
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/SuperCharger/PIC-0131.jpg
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/SuperCharger/PIC-0130.jpg
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/SuperCharger/PIC-0129.jpg

This is the OSV car
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/SuperCharger/Supercharger.jpg

AJxtcman
03-04-09, 01:33 PM
This is the airflow on a 4.4L
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/SuperCharger/Airflow.jpg
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/SuperCharger/superchargerairflow.jpg

This is the cooling
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/SuperCharger/Intercollersystem.jpg

AJxtcman
03-04-09, 01:35 PM
I would like to put the heat exchanger under the S/C instead of on top of it. I think this will give me more hood clearance.

Raze
03-04-09, 02:46 PM
That is funny. Do you know what a Phantom Grip LSD is?

Sure do, and while I wouldn't personally use one, it's available and more of a 'prototype' test LSD even though it's not fully locking blah blah blah, but for $300, may provide some return for the $ for those looking to help control torque steer of 500 ponies to the FW...

AJxtcman
03-04-09, 04:34 PM
Sure do, and while I wouldn't personally use one, it's available and more of a 'prototype' test LSD even though it's not fully locking blah blah blah, but for $300, may provide some return for the $ for those looking to help control torque steer of 500 ponies to the FW...

I don't need any shavings of brass in my trans pan.

You also have to be very careful of Stabilitrac

NorthStarGXP
03-05-09, 09:30 AM
I don't need any shavings of brass in my trans pan.

Please explain. Did you get brass shavings in your tranny pan, did you observe someone who did, or do you feel this might happen with the Phantom Grip LSD? Or is it just a general statement?


You also have to be very careful of Stabilitrac

Ok, I will.

N0DIH
03-05-09, 09:34 AM
I know everyone can flame me, but I still stay at the rpm level of a N* or Ford Mod Motor, the M90 is just plain too small no matter what you do. They don't call it a HEATon for nothing..... Get an M112..... IMHO...

Reason I say it, my 3800 L67 with a Eaton M90 cannot have much at all added to it like small pulleys (3.5" and below on a 3800), You have to add headers, almost no exhaust without problems with boost stacking below 3.5, And intercooler is mandatory below a 3.0" pulley. The rpm range of the N* will put that M90 up into such an inefficient range you will be dealing with 300+ F intake air. Even just an intercooler I don't think it enough. I think you need the higher airflow and efficiency of the M112 at that rpm range.

AJxtcman
03-05-09, 10:09 AM
Please explain. Did you get brass shavings in your tranny pan, did you observe someone who did, or do you feel this might happen with the Phantom Grip LSD? Or is it just a general statement?


YES. I have seen pictures of this.

You can use a standard type LSD with a Stabilitrak car/truck. They will spin out.

This is a 4T65E LSD by Thrasher THRASHER/C-YA Racing Limited Slip Differentials (http://www.thrashercharged.com/tech_htm/differential.shtm)
http://www.thrashercharged.com/images/4T65e_diff/thrasher0cya0diff0sm0filmg.gif




This is a GMPP 4T65E Torsen Diff
http://paceperformance.com/ProductImages/manufacturer/gm/images/88958682A.gif

http://paceperformance.com/ProductImages/manufacturer/gm/images/88958682b.gif



I will post a 4T80E soon. I am loading a moving truck now. I should come across one.:thumbsup:

AJxtcman
03-05-09, 12:02 PM
I know everyone can flame me, but I still stay at the rpm level of a N* or Ford Mod Motor, the M90 is just plain too small no matter what you do. They don't call it a HEATon for nothing..... Get an M112..... IMHO...

Reason I say it, my 3800 L67 with a Eaton M90 cannot have much at all added to it like small pulleys (3.5" and below on a 3800), You have to add headers, almost no exhaust without problems with boost stacking below 3.5, And intercooler is mandatory below a 3.0" pulley. The rpm range of the N* will put that M90 up into such an inefficient range you will be dealing with 300+ F intake air. Even just an intercooler I don't think it enough. I think you need the higher airflow and efficiency of the M112 at that rpm range.

Compression Ratio (VIN K) -- 9.4:1
Compression Ratio (VIN 1) -- 8.5:1

2000+ Northstar
Compression Ratio -- 10.0:1


2006 STS-V Northstar
Compression Ratio -- 9.0:1
maximum engine boost of 83 kPa (12 psi) at the Supercharger
After the intercooler and at the Intake Valve 9.5 to 10.0 psi.
That is a 2.5 psi drop. This engine was engineered/beefed-up to run 9.5 to 10 psi on 9.0 to 1 compression.

Maybe 5 to 6 psi with the 10 to 1?

Raze
03-05-09, 02:47 PM
Compression Ratio (VIN K) -- 9.4:1
Compression Ratio (VIN 1) -- 8.5:1

2000+ Northstar
Compression Ratio -- 10.0:1


2006 STS-V Northstar
Compression Ratio -- 9.0:1
maximum engine boost of 83 kPa (12 psi) at the Supercharger
After the intercooler and at the Intake Valve 9.5 to 10.0 psi.
That is a 2.5 psi drop. This engine was engineered/beefed-up to run 9.5 to 10 psi on 9.0 to 1 compression.

Maybe 5 to 6 psi with the 10 to 1?

What's the IAT temp on the V series...?

Was the damage you observed w/a Phantom on a 4T80E? I wonder if it was installed correctly, they sometimes require shims or machining to fit proper w/o hitting the spiders...

AJxtcman
03-05-09, 04:03 PM
What's the IAT temp on the V series...?
Are you joking?
That would be like asking whats the ambient air temp sensor reading



Was the damage you observed w/a Phantom on a 4T80E? I wonder if it was installed correctly, they sometimes require shims or machining to fit proper w/o hitting the spiders...

NO

I located the tote with my trans in it. My trans is in piece :mad: I got pulled off the build to move:crybaby:

Raze
03-05-09, 04:22 PM
Are you joking?
That would be like asking whats the ambient air temp sensor reading


AJ, NO I'M NOT JOKING...

I'm asking because I'm curious to know the efficiency of the heat exchanger on the V series supercharger, it's not at all like asking what the ambient air temp is unless of course the cooler is 100% efficient which I doubt...

Also, who cares if you bork a transmission, I don't know how expensive 4T80Es are around you but Vin Ys go for $150 in good running order and 9s go for $250 around here, for that price it's worth experimenting IMHO if it's not your DD...

Submariner409
03-05-09, 04:45 PM
IAT on almost any of our normally aspirated cars will run anywhere from 6 to 60 degrees above ambient, depending on driving conditions, outside temperatures, how long you have been "at speed", and underhood heat transferred to the intake piping from idle or slow traffic conditions (regardless of whose phony CAI you have). At highway cruise, IAT runs about 8 - 15 degrees above ambient, winter/summer.

Post-compressor manifold air temperature will run anywhere from 75 - 200+ degrees hotter than IAT, just due to the nature of the beast: Compress air and it gets hot. Even if you were to use a full flow intercooler hooked up to the cooling system, there is no way on earth you'll ever lower post-compressor air temps below coolant temps of 200+ degrees.

Marine engines use straight raw inlet water for the intercooler flow.....so that's anywhere from 33 degrees to 88 degrees, depending on what sea you're in........still a heck of a lot more across-intercooler drop than your car's 200+ degree "cooler".

AJxtcman
03-05-09, 05:16 PM
Also, who cares if you bork a transmission, I don't know how expensive 4T80Es are around you but Vin Ys go for $150 in good running order and 9s go for $250 around here, for that price it's worth experimenting IMHO if it's not your DD...

Nothing broken. I was build a new trans for the Fiero. The one in the car is just a core that I repaired. I plan on adding a 4000 stall converter to it also. I can PWM the stall down to what ever I want on the street. I have Cams that need a 4k converter.

AJxtcman
03-05-09, 05:37 PM
Air Temp Displayed Data list in the ECM

Ambient Air Temperature: Info from HVAC
IAT Sensor: It is located in the MAF
IAT Sensor 2: Looks like it is just above the right cylinder head in the intake manifold
Super Charger Inlet Air Pressure (SCIAP) Sensor: it is near the Throttle Body it looks like it is on the Supercharger side.

AJxtcman
03-05-09, 05:46 PM
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Trans%20Parts/Final%20Drive/HPIM3960.jpg

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Trans%20Parts/Final%20Drive/HPIM3961.jpg

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Trans%20Parts/Final%20Drive/HPIM3962.jpg

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Trans%20Parts/Final%20Drive/HPIM3963.jpg

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Trans%20Parts/Final%20Drive/HPIM3964.jpg

Submariner409
03-05-09, 10:28 PM
Cute pix. I assume that's a Positraction gearset for driving an "Eaton/GM M90 Supercharger on a 2003 Northstar". Do the planetarys drive the intercooler pump ?

:bigroll:

AJxtcman
03-15-09, 10:49 AM
This was my thoughts

Install the inter-cooler like the one from new CTS-V, but under the Supercharger. Down in the Valley. Maybe even pump R134A through it?
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/SuperCharger/LSAIntercooler.jpg

Then the pressurised air would travel back up the outsides of the Supercharger and then back down into the Heads. This would make 2 U bends and I didn't like that, but I could get the hood clearance needed.

Then I started toying with the idea of putting the little M90 down in the Valley by the starter. I would have less bends, but

Next to the Knock Sensor didn't sound good to me, so I figured on relocating it.
I would have to come up with a new pulley system and belts.
Water might condensate on the inter-cooler and drip down onto the Supercharger after shut down.

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/SuperCharger/LSASuperCharger.jpg
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/SuperCharger/CTS-V.jpg

Raze
03-15-09, 05:12 PM
AJ, I would not used R134 unless you want condensation, you want temp drop to be back to ambient, below and you're looking at drainage, but it would be killer in terms of temps, the other downside is though that you're using power to cool the R134 which you're then using to do the heat exchange, chances are you're not going to extract more power from the temp drop than you'll use to cool the R134, I'd stay w/water cooling or air-air, or else go meth/water injection. Could also get fancy with CO2 spray on the intercooler for WOT...

N0DIH
03-20-09, 09:46 AM
A lot of people like to move the IAT to make it read cooler, but in reality, the PCM NEEDS accurate IAT data to properly manage AFR. Everyone thinks they heat soak, nope, they are reading dead on, look at the IAT design, they can't heat soak. Really the IAT in the 4.9L Cads was the most accurate, it was inside the intake manifold, it fluxuated wildly, but it was reading accurately. I think any SC car should be monitoring IAT in the intake port, so then the PCM will have the optimum chance to make the AFR proper.

At speed and light throttle, IAT temps in the intake are going to be a fair amount higher than the actual inlet temp, but they are expected to be. Not much air is moving, and it spends some good time in the intake heating up.



IAT on almost any of our normally aspirated cars will run anywhere from 6 to 60 degrees above ambient, depending on driving conditions, outside temperatures, how long you have been "at speed", and underhood heat transferred to the intake piping from idle or slow traffic conditions (regardless of whose phony CAI you have). At highway cruise, IAT runs about 8 - 15 degrees above ambient, winter/summer.

Post-compressor manifold air temperature will run anywhere from 75 - 200+ degrees hotter than IAT, just due to the nature of the beast: Compress air and it gets hot. Even if you were to use a full flow intercooler hooked up to the cooling system, there is no way on earth you'll ever lower post-compressor air temps below coolant temps of 200+ degrees.

Marine engines use straight raw inlet water for the intercooler flow.....so that's anywhere from 33 degrees to 88 degrees, depending on what sea you're in........still a heck of a lot more across-intercooler drop than your car's 200+ degree "cooler".

32vmonte
03-27-09, 01:50 AM
I have all the faith in the world that once Jake and AJ put their collective knowledge together they will get a better performer than this AND will not blow head gaskets, well maybe :alchi::

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Supercharged-Lincoln-mark_201726.htm

YouTube - 600 hp Lincoln Mark VIII 11.84 @ 121 mph (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOw0-96mOpk)

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/LS1-Camaroboltonssprayon_83578.htm

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Supercharged-Lincoln-mark_201726.htm

This car is local to me and so are those tracks......

The m90 doesn't sound like a well suited SC for the N*, Like others said it will be way out of it's efficiency range. It does that on the 3800.

A whipple would be better. 3800 ppl have used them and they blow the m90 away.

AJxtcman
03-27-09, 06:57 AM
This car is local to me and so are those tracks......

The m90 doesn't sound like a well suited SC for the N*, Like others said it will be way out of it's efficiency range. It does that on the 3800.

A whipple would be better. 3800 ppl have used them and they blow the m90 away.

Ford Mustang's have M90's on them and the have less compression. Higher compression would mean that you spin it slower. :rolleyes:

32vmonte
03-27-09, 10:12 AM
Is it the exact same SC? as the 3800's?

AJxtcman
03-28-09, 04:56 PM
This is the OSV car
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/SuperCharger/Supercharger.jpg


This will be the SuperCharger that I will use.

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Bert/GT500/HPIM3903.jpg

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Bert/GT500/HPIM3905.jpg

I am going to pull this off the car http://store.roushperformance.com/images/products/08/mustang/401420_385x270.jpg


. :sneaky:

:suspect:

NHRATA01
04-01-09, 12:07 PM
Ford Mustang's have M90's on them and the have less compression. Higher compression would mean that you spin it slower. :rolleyes:

The '03/'04 Cobras have larger M112s on them, not M90s. Also the CR has no effect on the speed the blower is spinning at, that is determined by the pully diameter and engine speed.

STSS
04-01-09, 01:09 PM
Also the CR has no effect on the speed the blower is spinning at, that is determined by the pully diameter and engine speed.

I think he means you would "want" to spin it slower.

AJxtcman
04-01-09, 01:19 PM
The '03/'04 Cobras have larger M112s on them, not M90s. Also the CR has no effect on the speed the blower is spinning at, that is determined by the pulley diameter and engine speed.

That RoushCharger (07 4.6L) shown is an M90.
CR have an effect on Combustion Chamber Pressure. Too much pressure can cause detonation and it can push the bearings out on the crank. So with higher compression you would typically use less boost (bigger pulley). With a 6 to 1 or even an 8 to 1 CR engine you can run a lot more boost (smaller pulley)

Starfire88
04-08-09, 06:40 PM
A bump for you and some questions AJ

Since it seems you have access to both an eaton m90 and m112 could you be so kind as to list the dimensions for both? I've looked elsewhere and simply can not find them.

Could you list it like follows (in inches please)
Length blower + Length nose + pully
Width
Height

I've got multiple projects in mind and just need the measurement to see if either of these are do able.

AJxtcman
04-08-09, 06:48 PM
A bump for you and some questions AJ

Since it seems you have access to both an eaton m90 and m112 could you be so kind as to list the dimensions for both? I've looked elsewhere and simply can not find them.

Could you list it like follows (in inches please)
Length blower + Length nose + pully
Width
Height

I've got multiple projects in mind and just need the measurement to see if either of these are do able.

The Ford is still out :histeric:
Long story

N0DIH
04-08-09, 07:11 PM
REALLY long.....


The Ford is still out :histeric:
Long story

N0DIH
04-08-09, 07:13 PM
Honestly a M90 off a 3800 is probably a good choice for fitting to a GM engine, TB in back, N* TB can be fitted, just have to work on the snout length. But anything can be done....

But the question is will a M90 feed a high revving 4.6L...... They aren't exactly efficient, but they make awesome down low power.


A bump for you and some questions AJ

Since it seems you have access to both an eaton m90 and m112 could you be so kind as to list the dimensions for both? I've looked elsewhere and simply can not find them.

Could you list it like follows (in inches please)
Length blower + Length nose + pully
Width
Height

I've got multiple projects in mind and just need the measurement to see if either of these are do able."

AJxtcman
04-08-09, 07:31 PM
REALLY long.....

He is talking about trading it in on a GM product.

Check your email. Funny post over on HPT

97EldoCoupe
04-08-09, 08:53 PM
The M90 is designed for 3.0 - 5.0 liter engines. The 4.6 falls within this category. The best engine to adapt this to is the 4.0 Aurora engine. The M90 makes a world of difference on the L67 compared to the naturally aspirated L36 3800 V6. 0.2 liters more (the 4.0 Aurora V8) isn't much of a displacement increase.

My 97 Eldorado has a 4.0 in it right now. It will lose to my STS at takeoff but around 60MPH keeps up just fine. The 4.0 is one awesome engine and should not be overlooked. However, there is no replacement for displacement.

97EldoCoupe
04-08-09, 08:55 PM
Keep in mind my Eldo is the base coupe with the 3.11's. I have a 97 Aurora (one left) with the 3.71:1 final drive which would be a perfect test car for the M90.

N0DIH
04-08-09, 10:24 PM
I agree the M90 is best to keep it down towards 4L, the reason in my book is the 4V and high rpm the N* can spin. It doesn't take much of a pulley in a 3800 on the M90 to make it problematic with heating and boost stacking. Both are nasty problems. Too small of blower has problems, I feel it is best to err on the too large side, it is easy to slow one down and not cause problems, but it is almost never a good thing to speed them up too fast, the problems start to show up....

You still want to match them up to be most efficient, so you don't get too much boost down low and cause driveability problems, and the frictional losses and heating issues when it gets too fast....

Starfire88
04-09-09, 01:33 AM
Funny you should mention the 4L aurora engine. That is actually one of cars, '96 aurora, i need the size specs on the blowers for. Since the computer is already junk in that car i'm planning on replacing it with some form of programable aftermarket computer and cutting up the car and putting a manual tranny in.

Thankfully the N* fiero group has done plenty of research for both the transmissions that bolt up and 3rd party computers to run engine and trans (if needed)

AJxtcman
04-09-09, 07:19 AM
Funny you should mention the 4L aurora engine. That is actually one of cars, '96 aurora, i need the size specs on the blowers for. Since the computer is already junk in that car i'm planning on replacing it with some form of programable aftermarket computer and cutting up the car and putting a manual tranny in.

Thankfully the N* fiero group has done plenty of research for both the transmissions that bolt up and 3rd party computers to run engine and trans (if needed)

I would run the GM/LS1 PCM

Starfire88
04-13-09, 09:52 AM
Got a question on the LS1 computer. Are you able to program the following transmissions to work with it?
6T70
6T75
F40

i know these transmissions are (factory) rated to only handle 295-300 lb·ft of torque. I'm simply exploring the options what is open before committing to anything

AJxtcman
04-13-09, 01:15 PM
Got a question on the LS1 computer. Are you able to program the following transmissions to work with it?
6T70
6T75
F40

i know these transmissions are (factory) rated to only handle 295-300 lb·ft of torque. I'm simply exploring the options what is open before committing to anything

No
No
Yes