: Hyundai's next luxury car is in the design stage...



Lord Cadillac
01-05-09, 12:48 PM
While Cadillac is toying around with front wheel drive CUVs and the idea of removing itself from the full-size luxury sedan market altogether, Hyundai is moving forward with their plans of taking whatever customers Cadillac leaves behind... :highfive:

c5 rv
01-05-09, 01:15 PM
In my warped little mind, I would feel better about buying a car from our long time allies, like South Korea and Australia, rather than former enemies, like Japan and Germany, or future enemies, like China.

CIWS
01-05-09, 02:02 PM
Renderings and concepts are great. But let me see what actually goes into production. :yup:

Sandy
01-05-09, 02:34 PM
BUY AMERICAN, OR BYE AMERICA!

CADILLAC OR LINCOLN 'nuff said !

TO THINE OWN SELF - BE TRUE.

LET ME ADD TO SOUTH KOREA & AUSTRLIA >>> ISRAEL !

The Tony Show
01-05-09, 02:46 PM
So after shamelessly aping the LS430 to make the Genesis a budget Lexus, they now have turned their sights to making a budget CLS? :yawn:

Lord Cadillac
01-05-09, 03:08 PM
So after shamelessly aping the LS430 to make the Genesis a budget Lexus, they now have turned their sights to making a budget CLS? :yawn:
At least they're "doing" something. What's Cadillac doing? Nothing at all? When Cadillac makes an S-Class / 7-Series competitor, I'll be the first one in South Florida to own one. Until then, it's onward and upward for me. If "onward and upward" means buying Hyundai's budget S-Class, than so be it. Obviously, Cadillac isn't leaving me a whole lot of choices.

The Tony Show
01-05-09, 03:25 PM
Unfortunately, cars like the S-Class, LS, 7-series, etc make up a very small portion of carmakers' sales- 70% of BMW and MB sales are the 3-series and C-Class. Once you've got a popular and profitable "mass market" car, THEN you fiddle with making a low volume Prestige Luxury sedan. Pretend for minute that GM had the money right now to design and build a legitimate, $70,000 competitor to the 7 series- it wouldn't sell, because too many people still think Cadillacs should be markedly less than the foreign competitor.

Making a flagship car at this stage of the game would be foolish. Cadillac is putting all the pieces in place and turning around public perception with the CTS and upcoming variants. The current SRX is a dud since it's oversized and overpriced for the class, so the new Theta based model will catch the eye of RX330 and MDX buyers. Once they have the image and sales volume to dedicate the money to a flagship, it'll happen.

If they tried it now and cut corners to achieve the price advantage that is expected, they'd be blasted for cutting corners and cheaping out. Rome wasn't built in a day, and even God took 7 days to create the Earth (which is a long time on his schedule :D). Cadillac isn't going to magically create a flagship and convince people to buy it until they've earned back their reputation enough to justify the price.

CIWS
01-05-09, 03:28 PM
Here's another thing they're doing :eek:

Laid off? Hyundai will take your car back

The automaker's new incentive program aims to reassure car buyers who are worried about losing their jobs.


"NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Hyundai Motor America is taking aim at Americans' worries about job security: If you buy a new Hyundai and lose your job within a year, you can give it back."In this uncertain economy, we are looking for ways to reassure shoppers that Hyundai still represents the best value in the auto industry," said John Krafcik, president and chief executive of Hyundai Motor America, the U.S. arm of the South Korea-based automaker, in a company statement."




http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/05/autos/hyundai_assurance/index.htm?postversion=2009010513

misfit6794
01-05-09, 03:29 PM
Its STILL a hyundai. Remember the phaeton?

Florian
01-05-09, 03:40 PM
Its STILL a hyundai. Remember the phaeton?

Yup, it was a VW.


F

Lord Cadillac
01-05-09, 03:52 PM
I don't see any $80k Hyundai's...


Its STILL a hyundai. Remember the phaeton?

billc83
01-05-09, 03:52 PM
All these comparisons between the Genesis and VW Phaeton. Apples and oranges.

The Phaeton was designed to compete in the "ultra-luxury" segment, and was basically forced into production by one man - Ferdinand Piech. It topped out at just over $100,000, far out of the range of the average luxury auto consumer. More damning, it topped out at $100,000 badged as a Volkswagen, when at that price there was no excuse not to market the car as an Audi.

The Genesis, on the other hand, tops out at less than half the Phaeton's price, not exactly cheap, but within reach of the average luxury car shopper. Though its marketed as a Hyundai, Hyundai does not have a luxury name to market it under, and creating a luxury make from scratch will cost MAJOR money.

I won't be surprised if Hyundai births (or buys) an entire luxury brand in the near future; the Genesis is most likely testing the waters. Provided its not a complete failure (right now its selling less than anticipated), expect some Korean luxury dealerships to pop up. You might laugh, but so did a lot of people when Lexus first came around.

Yes, the Genesis is just a Hyundai, but one with some serious chops, priced competitively with its benchmarked competition.

Lord Cadillac
01-05-09, 03:54 PM
You make a great point - but the DTS isn't SO far away from being the car I want. All it needs is RWD, a little more power and a few new options - ones that a new DTS probably would have had anyway...


Unfortunately, cars like the S-Class, LS, 7-series, etc make up a very small portion of carmakers' sales- 70% of BMW and MB sales are the 3-series and C-Class. Once you've got a popular and profitable "mass market" car, THEN you fiddle with making a low volume Prestige Luxury sedan. Pretend for minute that GM had the money right now to design and build a legitimate, $70,000 competitor to the 7 series- it wouldn't sell, because too many people still think Cadillacs should be markedly less than the foreign competitor.

Making a flagship car at this stage of the game would be foolish. Cadillac is putting all the pieces in place and turning around public perception with the CTS and upcoming variants. The current SRX is a dud since it's oversized and overpriced for the class, so the new Theta based model will catch the eye of RX330 and MDX buyers. Once they have the image and sales volume to dedicate the money to a flagship, it'll happen.

If they tried it now and cut corners to achieve the price advantage that is expected, they'd be blasted for cutting corners and cheaping out. Rome wasn't built in a day, and even God took 7 days to create the Earth (which is a long time on his schedule :D). Cadillac isn't going to magically create a flagship and convince people to buy it until they've earned back their reputation enough to justify the price.

Destroyer
01-05-09, 04:22 PM
Wow! If the production model looks anything like that, it will sell no matter what badge it's wearing. That is sweet!

Blackout
01-05-09, 05:31 PM
The Phaeton was designed to compete in the "ultra-luxury" segment, and was basically forced into production by one man - Ferdinand Piech. It topped out at just over $100,000, far out of the range of the average luxury auto consumer. More damning, it topped out at $100,000 badged as a Volkswagen, when at that price there was no excuse not to market the car as an Audi.The W12 version topped out at $100k. The V8 version was in the $60k range IIRC.


I won't be surprised if Hyundai births (or buys) an entire luxury brand in the near future; the Genesis is most likely testing the waters. Provided its not a complete failure (right now its selling less than anticipated)Really? http://www.autoblog.com/2008/12/30/how-is-the-genesis-selling-hyundais-marketing-vp-spills-the-be/

All of which has us wondering... how are sales of the Big Hyun going so far? Well, according to a new article by MediaPost, pretty darn well. The marketing publication interviewed the company's U.S. vice president of marketing, Joel Ewanick, and while he acknowledges the tough sales environment, he builds a pretty compelling case.

Among them: Over the past 90 days, the Genesis has sold "at or near objectives" and the company considers its performance to be "a very healthy launch." The sedan went on sale in July, and dealers have shifted 5,127 units thus far, including 1,151 last month. Ewanick notes that fully 90 percent of all Genesis buyers are originating outside of the brand, including 40 percent that "have traded in vehicles like Lexus, BMW, Mercedes, and Porsche." In addition, the Hyundai veep believes that the Genesis has helped contribute to brand-building, citing awareness and consideration figures that have jumped 25 percent in 2008 alone.

Judging by Ewanick's remarks, while the Genesis sedan may not be blowing out initial sales projections, it is performing solidly. Perhaps a down economy is exactly the right sandbox for the value-conscious Genesis to play in after all.

Blackout
01-05-09, 05:33 PM
Its STILL a hyundai. Remember the phaeton?

I remember the Phaeton, you obviously do not. It was the best car built by VW to date

misfit6794
01-05-09, 07:09 PM
Oh definetly the best built by vw(if you don't count audi/lambo/bentley),not questioning that. The problem was that nobody wanted to buy it, hence its short life.

LS1Mike
01-05-09, 07:28 PM
Renderings and concepts are great. But let me see what actually goes into production. :yup:

Exactly, I mean look at the Tiburon, it changed a lot form the concept. Just like most concepts do. Once the bean counters get it things change.

gary88
01-05-09, 07:53 PM
Nice blatant rip-off of the 3 series front fascia and S-class grille going on in the front.

Blackout
01-05-09, 08:24 PM
http://jalopnik.com/5124031/consumer-reports-hyundai-genesis-new-top+rated-upscale-sedan-bests-lexus-es-350

Destroyer
01-05-09, 08:45 PM
http://jalopnik.com/5124031/consumer-reports-hyundai-genesis-new-top+rated-upscale-sedan-bests-lexus-es-350
I can't help but be impressed with the progress Hyundai has made. I still don't want one though. :eek:

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-05-09, 08:45 PM
Man I see a lot of influences in that (imagine that, a complete lack of asian creativity):

'07+ Honda Accord Sedan (C-pillar, rear fenders)
Mercedes Benz CLS Class (Roofline)
Lexus ES350 (trunk, rear bumper)
Buick Enclave (the way the fender line goes up and down)

Blackout
01-05-09, 09:08 PM
Man I see a lot of influences in that (imagine that, a complete lack of asian creativity)You act as if this is an asian only thing. Everybody copies bits and pieces from other cars

Lord Cadillac
01-05-09, 09:23 PM
Maybe I just don't care what other people think - but if Hyundai were to ever build a car that looked like a Lamborghini, drove like a Lamborghini and costed $60,000.00 - I'd buy it. I'd love the way it looked and enjoy the way it drove. What else do I need to care about? What "Bozo The Clown" thinks? If Hyundai comes out with a car that looks like a Mercedes S-Class, is as luxurious, drives like an S-Class with a ten year warranty for $60k, I'm buying one. Unless Cadillac comes out with one first. And again, I don't care what Bozo The Clown thinks about it...

Blackout
01-05-09, 09:28 PM
Maybe I just don't care what other people think - but if Hyundai were to ever build a car that looked like a Lamborghini, drove like a Lamborghini and costed $60,000.00 - I'd buy it. I'd love the way it looked and enjoy the way it drove. What else do I need to care about? What "Bozo The Clown" thinks? If Hyundai comes out with a car that looks like a Mercedes S-Class, is as luxurious, drives like an S-Class with a ten year warranty for $60k, I'm buying one. Unless Cadillac comes out with one first. And again, I don't care what Bozo The Clown thinks about it...

Couldn't have put it any better. It's amazing what a badge means to people

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-05-09, 10:52 PM
You act as if this is an asian only thing. Everybody copies bits and pieces from other cars

Yeah, but the asians have always copied other's designs. Everyone else seems to have started doing it within the last 8-10 years. It used to be when a Cadillac looked like a Cadillac, and when a BMW looked like a BMW, and when a Honda looked like a Honda, and when a Nissan looked like a Nissan. Now everything looks alike. It's just disappointing.

orconn
01-05-09, 11:32 PM
Yeah, but the asians have always copied other's designs. Everyone else seems to have started doing it within the last 8-10 years. It used to be when a Cadillac looked like a Cadillac, and when a BMW looked like a BMW, and when a Honda looked like a Honda, and when a Nissan looked like a Nissan. Now everything looks alike. It's just disappointing.

I am afraid "everyone" has been doing it alot longer than that ......... like since before Harley Earl made his first trip to Europe!

ryannel2003
01-05-09, 11:38 PM
I have to say I'm not shocked by all the negative things said about the Genesis. I'm sure most people thought the same of the '90 LS400, and look how well that car turned out. I love the Genesis. I'd buy one over the current S-Class (disgusting), the LS460 (the Genesis is basically a cheap LS460 anyway) and the terrible BMW 7-series (the last nice looking 7 was made in 2001). I do like what a badge represents (I'm sure I wouldn't have bought the Seville if it was made my Oldsmobile or Buick), but the Genesis is such a good car the badge really doesn't matter. I have to say, the only large luxury sedan I'd buy over one is probably an A8 or Jag XJ.

Lord Cadillac
01-06-09, 12:14 AM
I have to say I'm not shocked by all the negative things said about the Genesis. I'm sure most people thought the same of the '90 LS400, and look how well that car turned out. I love the Genesis. I'd buy one over the current S-Class (disgusting), the LS460 (the Genesis is basically a cheap LS460 anyway) and the terrible BMW 7-series (the last nice looking 7 was made in 2001). I do like what a badge represents (I'm sure I wouldn't have bought the Seville if it was made my Oldsmobile or Buick), but the Genesis is such a good car the badge really doesn't matter. I have to say, the only large luxury sedan I'd buy over one is probably an A8 or Jag XJ.
It seems that everywhere you go, for every negative comment - there are two positive comments. No biggie.

The Tony Show
01-06-09, 11:09 AM
Judging by Ewanick's remarks, while the Genesis sedan may not be blowing out initial sales projections, it is performing solidly. Perhaps a down economy is exactly the right sandbox for the value-conscious Genesis to play in after all.

Cadillac also sold a bunch of XLRs the first year simply due to the "shock factor" of offering such a different, high priced car- we all know how that turned out a few years later though :shifty. 4 years will need to come and go before a proclamation of success can be made for the Genesis.

Lord Cadillac
01-06-09, 11:33 AM
Cadillac also sold a bunch of XLRs the first year simply due to the "shock factor" of offering such a different, high priced car- we all know how that turned out a few years later though :shifty. 4 years will need to come and go before a proclamation of success can be made for the Genesis.
That's true but I think the Genesis has a better chance.. I think a Cadillac Genesis for $60k would sell EASILY twice as much as a Hyundai Genesis. And if Hyundai is making a profit at $40k, than Cadillac's profit could/would be at LEAST $20k per vehicle.

The Tony Show
01-06-09, 11:38 AM
Couldn't have put it any better. It's amazing what a badge means to people

To me it's not "the badge", but rather "what the badge represents". In the case of Hyundai, to me it represents a company that has no experience building, servicing or reselling a high end product. If Hyundai built an amazing car, but it fell apart after a year, they gave me crummy service when I took it in and is only worth 10% of what I bought it for 3 years later (like an XG350, perhaps), I'd still pass.

I don't think most people pay for the badge itself, but rather their impression of the quality that a particular brand gives them.

Blackout
01-06-09, 12:27 PM
Cadillac also sold a bunch of XLRs the first year simply due to the "shock factor" of offering such a different, high priced car- we all know how that turned out a few years later though :shifty. 4 years will need to come and go before a proclamation of success can be made for the Genesis.Thats because people started realizing they could have the exact same car but better, faster, cheaper, and with a better motor with the Corvette

Blackout
01-06-09, 12:33 PM
To me it's not "the badge", but rather "what the badge represents". In the case of Hyundai, to me it represents a company that has no experience building, servicing or reselling a high end product. If Hyundai built an amazing car, but it fell apart after a year, they gave me crummy service when I took it in and is only worth 10% of what I bought it for 3 years later (like an XG350, perhaps), I'd still pass.

I don't think most people pay for the badge itself, but rather their impression of the quality that a particular brand gives them.

In order to get into the luxury car business you gotta start somewhere. We could be witnessing the birth of a totally brand new Hyundai and with all of the info I am reading and hearing about with Hyundai's future lineup and the options they are starting to offer as well as them starting to build some mighty fine (spec wise) engines they are looking to be a serious contender in the market. If you have a LS460 and a Genesis side by side optioned similarly you would have to be crazy to not want to give the Genesis a try. 10 year/100k warranty, same options as the Lexus, lots of Hyundai dealerships (around here at least) so plenty of places to get your car serviced (versus the 2 or 3 Lexus dealers in a 20+ mile radius) plus at the same time you won't be supporting Toyota which is the main selling point for me

The Tony Show
01-06-09, 01:19 PM
Don't get me wrong- I'm not pissing on Hyundai at all, just saying that I wouldn't make the leap to a new brand just because it's comparable to something more expensive. The size/features/materials are only the tip of the iceberg. It's only after we know the quality of service and long term durability that the Genesis can be declared a winner or a near miss.

Night Wolf
01-06-09, 02:32 PM
To me it's not "the badge", but rather "what the badge represents". In the case of Hyundai, to me it represents a company that has no experience building, servicing or reselling a high end product. If Hyundai built an amazing car, but it fell apart after a year, they gave me crummy service when I took it in and is only worth 10% of what I bought it for 3 years later (like an XG350, perhaps), I'd still pass.

I don't think most people pay for the badge itself, but rather their impression of the quality that a particular brand gives them.

I have been very UN-impressed with the service I have got and way I was treated as a customer from every delaership I have been in, several Ford/Lincoln dealers, many of the GM-mega bundles, and unless you are dressed like a million bucks (gotta love the fake image) I was ignored at MB/Volvo dealer (to ask about an E30 on the used car lot) as well as at the local BMW dealer to get parts for my BMW.

Really, I have yet to go to a car dealer that actually treated me with respect, in fact the best car-dealer experiences I've had were small-town used car lots that basically said thats the car, heres the keys, tell me if you like it when you get back.

I have heard Lexus/Hyundai dealers are good and treat customers right... I should go just for the heck of it. Honestly if I didn't know much about cars, or really care much about the details of the car I drove, and I went into any of the above mentioned dealers, that would probably be enough to turn me away from buying one of their cars, if I then walked into a Lexus dealer and was treated as an actual person, heck I'd be alot more inclined to buy a car from them.

I've came to the conclusion that just about all car dealers, especially new ones, are flat out bad, I've yet to believe otherwise, which is why I only go to the dealer, for parts, if I absolutly need to.

I really think that a Hyundai luxury brand is coming soon, either with the next car they are planning or the one after that.

90's Excels are a thing of the past, pretty soon people aren't even going to be making the comparison to Hyundai and "throw away cars"

Blackout
01-06-09, 02:38 PM
I have been very UN-impressed with the service I have got and way I was treated as a customer from every delaership I have been in, several Ford/Lincoln dealers, many of the GM-mega bundles, and unless you are dressed like a million bucks (gotta love the fake image) I was ignored at MB/Volvo dealer (to ask about an E30 on the used car lot) as well as at the local BMW dealer to get parts for my BMW.

Really, I have yet to go to a car dealer that actually treated me with respect, in fact the best car-dealer experiences I've had were small-town used car lots that basically said thats the car, heres the keys, tell me if you like it when you get back.

I have heard Lexus/Hyundai dealers are good and treat customers right... I should go just for the heck of it. Honestly if I didn't know much about cars, or really care much about the details of the car I drove, and I went into any of the above mentioned dealers, that would probably be enough to turn me away from buying one of their cars, if I then walked into a Lexus dealer and was treated as an actual person, heck I'd be alot more inclined to buy a car from them.

I've came to the conclusion that just about all car dealers, especially new ones, are flat out bad, I've yet to believe otherwise, which is why I only go to the dealer, for parts, if I absolutly need to.

I really think that a Hyundai luxury brand is coming soon, either with the next car they are planning or the one after that.

90's Excels are a thing of the past, pretty soon people aren't even going to be making the comparison to Hyundai and "throw away cars"
That's always the first thing out of peoples mouths about Hyundai is, "What about the old Excels?" and I usually say, "for every bad Excel out there is 100+ cars from domestic brands that are just as bad from that time period". Luckily for me The two Hyundai dealers closest to me treat me great even though I don't own one (yet). The one dealership my dad is friends with the owner and they go back a long ways, and the other dealer I am friends with all of the higher ups there since my buddies mom is a cashier there

Night Wolf
01-06-09, 03:03 PM
I am going to be stright up honest tho and say that atleast for me... due to my car/movie connections and whatnot, every time I think of Hyundai... and especially the Excel, I can't help but think back to this.... not good or bad, but just makes me laugh to myself... this movie did come out in 1996, maybe now that compairison wouldn't be so extreme...

Starting at 2:00 into it to 7:30:

uYgaEQXYtG0&feature=related

The Tony Show
01-06-09, 03:31 PM
For a price in the high $30,000s, I bought an SRX. Cadillac sent someone out to my house with a new battery when I left the DVD on overnight. They gave me a CTS to drive when I left it in the shop for a recall, and I love the OnStar Turn-by-Turn navigation when I go out of town. Having no experience with Hyundai I don't know if the two first items would happen for a Hyundai owner, but I know the third one is impossible.

A LOT of the people on these forums that criticize Cadillac for their service or build quality are driving 10 year old (or older) cars, to which things like OnStar and the 48/50 warranty owner benefits don't apply. I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that there's more to owning a car than how many speakers it has or how the leather feels. I wouldn't necessarily rate my SRX a 10/10 in every category, but having driven 3 new Cadillacs since 2004, I can say that the ownership experience has been pretty sweet.

Lord Cadillac
01-06-09, 03:39 PM
Cadillac ownership experience is going to be a LOT better than Hyundai ownership experience. Cars like the Genesis are for people who want the experience a luxury car can provide them with - without necessarily getting the same level of customer service that goes along with higher priced vehicles.

The Tony Show
01-06-09, 04:01 PM
Cadillac ownership experience is going to be a LOT better than Hyundai ownership experience. Cars like the Genesis are for people who want the experience a luxury car can provide them with - without necessarily getting the same level of customer service that goes along with higher priced vehicles.

That's the point I'm trying to make- it's not "the badge" that I value, but rather what comes along with it. I'll gladly pay an extra few thousand for the free loaner car, real roadside service that brings me a new battery (instead of Billy Bob in the clapped out van giving me jumpstart) and all the other goodies that come along with a Premium brand.

billc83
01-06-09, 05:06 PM
I can't vouch for others, but my Cadillac dealership experience has been top notch. Now, it's a Cadillac - Hummer - Chevrolet, but at least they have the good sense to keep the Chevy area separate. I don't like the thought of pulling into the service area behind an Aveo.:tisk:

orconn
01-06-09, 08:05 PM
In the last seven years I have had a new Cadillac and a new Mercedes. The service from the Cadillac dealer was far better than the service from the Mercedes dealer. Over the years I have had new Jaguars, Cadillacs, Audis, Volkswagen, Mercedes and Peugeot in all that experience the Cadillac dealerships I have dealt with have provided a far better standard of service than the other dealers ....... with Mercedes and Audi being the worst buying and service experience. The service of the Audi was carried out by Porsche-Audi of Beverly Hills, CA and was inept and as I came to know exhorbitantly over priced, as was P-A of Glendale, Ca.

Destroyer
01-07-09, 10:20 PM
I can't vouch for others, but my Cadillac dealership experience has been top notch. Now, it's a Cadillac - Hummer - Chevrolet, but at least they have the good sense to keep the Chevy area separate. I don't like the thought of pulling into the service area behind an Aveo.:tisk:You do realize that makes you sound a bit "snotty" right?. Take into consideration that a new Aveo is worth 2-3 times more than a '99 Deville and...............:confused:

gary88
01-07-09, 10:37 PM
If I ever buy an Aveo over a '99 Deville... shoot me.

ryannel2003
01-07-09, 11:26 PM
^Seriously, and I'm not even a fan of that style Deville. It screams retirement home in Florida, where as the Seville is nearing the age of 60 living in the Condo down the street.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
01-08-09, 12:24 AM
If I ever buy an Aveo over a '99 Deville... shoot me.

What if the DeVille went through a gallon of coolant in a week?






Ah hell, who am I kidding? I'd still take the DeVille, especially if it was a Concours.

billc83
01-08-09, 03:18 AM
Man, everyone's so serious. Please take my comments with a grain of salt...

Styling's always a subjective area; no complaint there. I specifically bought a '99 over a '00+ because I dislike the latter's styling. I'll probably get chastised for saying this, but I've never been a big fan of the Seville. Cadillac's should have vertical taillights.