: Arrrghh Won't start



planocolt
12-30-08, 01:50 PM
I have a 1999 Cadillac Seville STS with the Northstar.

I cannot get the car to start. I have checked the fuel pressure and it is ROCK solid at 43 psi I have checked this with the ignition in the "on" position and cranking. The car turns over and tries to start the "Backfires" (I do not know if this is just an overpressure valve opening) then dies.

Any ideas here would be more than welcome.

Submariner409
12-30-08, 07:55 PM
Best place to start (?) is to pull your DTC's using the built-in system in the car. Top of this page stickys and Seville stickys.

Sounds ignition/electronic/signal related. Ignition switch ? Have you changed ANY audio or alarm components ? Maybe theft system related.

planocolt
12-31-08, 05:48 PM
Yep it pops an 1108, but I have already changed the MAP.

It's pig rich fouling the plugs.

Submariner409
12-31-08, 06:13 PM
Pull the beauty cover and find the FPR (Fuel Pressure Regulator) on the right rear of the fuel rail. A cylindrical widget with a vacuum line attached to the top. IF you can get the car started or with an assistant to crank with the key, pull the vacuum line off the nipple. Raw gas ? Ruptured FPR diaphragm. Instant rich mixture.

Dealer or www.rockauto.com or Luke in parts at Lindsay Cadillac, over there ----------->

planocolt
01-01-09, 02:20 PM
I gave it a shot. The nipple on the FPR is dry as a bone while trying to run and cranking.

Submariner409
01-01-09, 02:54 PM
Hmmmmmm.......stuck injector(s) ?? (Pig rich.......) Lift the entire fuel rail with injectors attached and crank it. Careful......raw fuel.....

Ranger
01-01-09, 05:41 PM
Before you crank it, just turn the key on to energize the fuel pump and pressurize the system. See if any injectors are leaking.

planocolt
01-02-09, 11:41 AM
That's a good idea. I will try that today. I pulled the TB, spacer and Intake manifold yesterday. The TB was a gooey mess as was the intake. Cleaned it and cleaned all the vacume ports on the intake. Cleaned fairly easily with TB cleaner and scotch brite. Reassembled. Same issue hard hard start if it does start really rough idle and no way you can throttle up.

Is there a way to put the ECM into a reset state?

Submariner409
01-02-09, 01:56 PM
planocolt, I'm going to ruin your day............You should never, ever, clean anything mechanical or automotive with any form of Scotch Brite. Every auto manufacturer and engine builder in existence cautions about the stuff in bulletins and service manuals. The suspended aluminum oxide abrasives in the pad weave stay on/in whatever you're cleaning and will eat aluminum and steel like termites. Aluminum oxide is among the most tenacious and quick-acting abrasives, and is extremely hard to remove from surfaces after use. I suggest you disassemble your TB area again and clean thoroughly with lint-free rags, toothbrushes, and throttlebody (not choke) cleaner.

The early Scotch Brite circular pads and backing plates have largely disappeared from the automotive market shelves.

You probably need to clean out the idle air passages with TB cleaner, bamboo skewers and pipe cleaners (hobby/craft store). Check the EGR valve for cleanliness and operation.

Ranger
01-02-09, 07:42 PM
From the Tech Tips section.
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-tech-tips/27507-scotchbrite-never.html

planocolt
01-05-09, 03:00 PM
Thanks Ranger, well the story took a dark turn. After pulling the FPR to check the screen it appears I didn't get the clip back on just right. After a couple starts the clip came off and the 43 pounds of pressure erupted the gasoline into the air in atomized form, read fuel vapor. The fuel then hit the hot cylinder head and.....


Yes,

FIRE!

I had the key out immediately, ran to the bottom shelf in my garage
and pulled the pin on my fire extinguisher. Hit the fire and subduded it for a couple seconds until the freshly melted fuel lines started leaking.

Reflash!

My wife was calling the fire department as I pulled the BIG fire extinguisher from the kitchen. I hit it hard. it was almost out when that extinguisher went empty. At this point I grabbed a towel and tamped out the remaining little
hot spots.

Ouch.... I even pressure tested this after pulling the clip. I don't get what happened, no leaks no issuses when I tested it.

Dammage (Could be much worse).

Intake manifold - Could still work but I wouldn't be able to clip injectors 5 and 7 so it gets replaced.

Injectors and fuel rail. Injector 5 and 7 housings and fuel tubes damaged.

Injector wiring harness, connectors 5 and 7 damaged, wires look good.

Throttle Body nylon accelerator cable control bracket - Melted

PVC vent tube - melted

EVAP vent valve hoses - melted

Nylon fuel lines - melted

EGR ???? Hot melted nylon on the top of the EGR.. no visiable damage still need to check the wires.

I think I have found a donor car so.... maybe wil get lucky.

Any Idea where I can get a J-37088 fuel connector removal tool?

planocolt
01-05-09, 03:06 PM
Oh and BTW, before this I pulled the injectors ran the Fuel pressure up
and no injector leaked.

Ranger
01-05-09, 07:24 PM
OUCH! Glad it was not any worse. Could have lost the car and the house.

I think you can get the tool at most parts stores.

planocolt
01-06-09, 12:59 PM
OK, I'll check NAPA. I have found a 1998 Deville donor car.

planocolt
01-12-09, 02:53 PM
OK, all buttoned back up, now how do you add coolant, is it as easy as filling the overflow tank?

Ranger
01-12-09, 03:40 PM
Yes, add it slowly to the surge tank. Start the engine and it will go down as it is pumped through the cooling system. Then when it is to the half mark, rev the engine a few times to 3-4K to purge any air in the system. Then top it off and cap it up. Check the level again after the first drive.

planocolt
01-12-09, 04:02 PM
Great, thanks!!!

planocolt
01-24-09, 07:06 PM
OK, the lock ring was really no problem. Replaces the puel sender assembly. The car starts and "High idles" now but when it trues to go to normal idle or to throttle up it dies. Sometimes it will go to low idle but it idles very rough. Throwin code P0101.

Man, the pump definitely helped but still having the same problem....

It idles pretty smoothly at high idle.

Submariner409
01-24-09, 08:08 PM
Did you get to clean the throttlebody and idle air control tubes......also, EGR valves can be a bitch for idle problems.

Ranger
01-24-09, 09:45 PM
P0101 - Mass Air Flow (MAF) Sensor Performance

planocolt
01-25-09, 12:13 PM
I replaced the MAF a couple weeks ago. I replace the MAP a couple week ago. (I need a test mule to check may parts out on ;^)).

So the fuel pump Definetly helped. The car fired RIGHT up. It hasn't done that in a long while.

It runs very smoothly at " Fast idle" cold start, but when it kicks down to normal idle it dies. Also if I cold start it and I try to throttle up, it bogs at ~1500 RPM the dies :^(

So, Map, MAF, Fuel pump replaced checked injectors for leaks, none detected, Checked all four colil packs with a spark plug tester, nice arc from all 4 packs, changed all 8 spark plugs, all replaced. Just a running list of diagnostics so far.

I have a scan tool.

http://www.obd-codes.com/reviews/data/4/1scantool_vpw.jpg

Anything you can think of to look at real time?

planocolt
01-25-09, 05:04 PM
New stuff, went out checked the MAF voltages, they are perfect. But it started ran and as soon as I gave her throttle she died, it won't start now....

Plugs are fouled Rich Very rich, I can smell gas when cranking (From the tail pipe........?


This screams spark, ignition.

Ranger
01-25-09, 05:24 PM
If it is that rich, have you checked the injectors & FPR for a leak?

planocolt
01-25-09, 05:41 PM
Yep even though it scared me to do so.

How does this plug read....

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm95/planocolt/100_1328.jpg?t=1232919668

Ranger
01-25-09, 06:27 PM
Seems to me that we still have to narrow this down to ignition or fuel. Got an old fashion timing light? Put it on one of the plugs. Run the RPM's up to the point that it stalls out and see if the strobe goes out or continues to flash.

Submariner409
01-25-09, 07:52 PM
Overall that plug is in good mechanical condition but shows evidence of rich fuel mixture. Any chance this is due to a ruptured Fuel Pressure regulator from the fire? A bad FPR is instant rich as in: choke full on.

There is no oil fouling (black, fluffy, wet goop) on the plug, so your mechanical cylinder condition is good..........

.........and, way back down in Posts 1 - 8, leaking injector(s) or improper fuel/air mixture readings.

planocolt
01-25-09, 08:33 PM
Seems to me that we still have to narrow this down to ignition or fuel. Got an old fashion timing light? Put it on one of the plugs. Run the RPM's up to the point that it stalls out and see if the strobe goes out or continues to flash.


I like this idea.

planocolt
01-25-09, 08:36 PM
Overall that plug is in good mechanical condition but shows evidence of rich fuel mixture. Any chance this is due to a ruptured Fuel Pressure regulator from the fire? A bad FPR is instant rich as in: choke full on.

There is no oil fouling (black, fluffy, wet goop) on the plug, so your mechanical cylinder condition is good..........

.........and, way back down in Posts 1 - 8, leaking injector(s) or improper fuel/air mixture readings.

So check the vacuum line to the FPR for fuel and the second part has me interested.

Improper fuel air mixture reading..... that is O2 sensor, but during initial startup isn't the O2 reading bypassed until it warms up?

Oh, btw, car was high idling fine, it didn't smell rich (full choke) then I pushed the throttle and the engine died, smelled like it was pig rich then no ability to restart, restart was fouled, the plugs are fouled. So it was idling, hit the trottle, it dies, no restart. Well the plug picture shows why the engine didn't refire, fouled plugs. This is why I am thinking there is fuel, but past idle the spark either dies off or goes weak and then the plugs foul. Could the ignition module fail in this manner?
restart was fouled, the plugs are fouled. So it was idling, hit the trottle

Submariner409
01-25-09, 10:16 PM
Technically the plug pictured is not fouled to the point of misfire. It does indicate an excessively rich mixture. The O2 sensors do not control a/f ratios, they sense mixture faults for emissions level performance and catalytic convertor operation. The MAF, MAP, and PCM programming actually determine mixture from airflow and load conditions. (Full throttle, timing retard and rich mixture. Highway cruise, max advance and optimal stoichiometric ratio. Cold start/warmup, anyone's guess.)

Something is driving your fuel mixtures rich. "What" is the diagnostic question..........and I don't have the answer right now.

planocolt
01-26-09, 12:32 PM
Technically the plug pictured is not fouled to the point of misfire. It does indicate an excessively rich mixture. The O2 sensors do not control a/f ratios, they sense mixture faults for emissions level performance and catalytic convertor operation. The MAF, MAP, and PCM programming actually determine mixture from airflow and load conditions. (Full throttle, timing retard and rich mixture. Highway cruise, max advance and optimal stoichiometric ratio. Cold start/warmup, anyone's guess.)

Something is driving your fuel mixtures rich. "What" is the diagnostic question..........and I don't have the answer right now.

Good points, What I was referencing was closed loop operation vs open loop operation in respect to the O2 sensor. I think the PCM is in open loop during the time I am starting and seeing the fail event (Engine dying). The throttle position sensor now has me curious. I like the point that something is bumping the pulse width duty cycle too far (at least I think that is how this system works) for the actual conditions the engine is experiencing. In addition the MAF flag sets even though the MAF sensor has been replaced
but the voltages are good at the MAF connector.

Something else is going on here..........