: Confessions of an M guy



Heavychevy1
12-23-08, 06:31 AM
Hi, I'm Heavychevy and I once was addicted to M's. The first time I saw an E46 M3 I had to have one but eventually got an E39 M5. Loved it, and to this day was my most missed car, even my 996 TT couldn't completely fill the void it left. There was just something special about it. And I knew that I'd be looking for a DD in the near future so I was considering going back to an E39, even with it's high maintenance, Vanos, and valve cover gasket issues.

Then I met the CTS-V. I have to admit when the V1 came out, I was skeptical that cadillac could challenge the merit of the M's with it's 400 hp engine and similar weight. I completely overlooked them and battled with many at the track. But now I'm completely convinced that GM has made this car to compete with the Germans in EVERY aspect of it's development. And I'm crazy about the car already. I will be waiting to see how the T60 holds up because it's been less than stellar in the Z06 in terms of durability, and I'll also be waiting to see how GM copes with the economic conditions, but I will be in a V at some point.

A close buddy of mine just got a black series modded to 580 hp, and while I dont think I'll be able to get in the ballpark looks wise, I think I can get the performance. We are like that, he bought a GT3 after I bought my TT. Not competitive (all the time at least) but just enthusiastic about the same things.

That being said I look forward to learning more about the new CTS-V

Pyromaniac
12-23-08, 07:19 AM
good to hear! welcome to the board!

CIWS
12-23-08, 08:28 AM
Greetings and :welcome: to the Cadillac Forum.

Kadonny
12-23-08, 08:55 AM
Welcome to the board, this car is amazing.....

Razorecko
12-23-08, 10:03 AM
welcome heavy, also the tremac 6 is redesigned in the new v2, it has ugraded gears to handle the additional torque.

chris1268
12-23-08, 10:24 AM
Welcome to the board

Heavychevy1
12-23-08, 11:30 AM
welcome heavy, also the tremac 6 is redesigned in the new v2, it has ugraded gears to handle the additional torque.

Is it designed differently from the one in the Z06? I keep up with the Corvette guys as I've had one myself, but from what I've seen there is an epidemic of problems with the T60, from notchy shifting, to grinding noises to complete failures.

I know the Tremec gearboxes T56 and T60 in general are some of the best there are, they've been bulletproof in the Vipers for some time now, but the Z06's are having problems for some reason and no one knows if it's the compatibilty with the rest of the rear end or what. I sure hope they have it worked out in the V.

Secondly, I'm a little dissapointed that the auto is faster even though it's heavier. Makes it tempting to get an auto, but I'm a track guy and I just cant see myself doing that.

I'd also like to know how springs or coil-overs would affect the magnetic suspension. I plan to lower, put some nice aggressive track-ish looking wheels on it and get rid of the chrome bling, it looks too classy for me, I want it to look mean. That, about 600 hp, and 2900 lbs or less, and I'd be good to go. May do my own racing type seats, lightweight wheels and nice sounding exhaust. That should do the trick.

I'm thinking high 11's at 122 mph range.

Yeah, I've done this quite a few times so forgive me for getting ahead of myself.

JEM
12-23-08, 02:26 PM
Secondly, I'm a little dissapointed that the auto is faster even though it's heavier.

A friend of mine works for an aftermarket parts firm, they get vehicles in for development. They've had a G8 GT (not GXP, just the Commodore SS-equivalent 360-whatever OE HP slushbox model) and with long-tube headers, an air snorkel, a cam (still with DoD functionality), ECU reflash and not much else he says it's running 11.8 at I don't remember what; the slushbox just stays right in the power band all the time.

We're really at the point where the ability to put power to the ground is a bigger limiting factor than just about anything else.

CIWS
12-23-08, 02:28 PM
I'm betting a mod'd GXP version is going to be downright evil, Camaro SS too.

Vrocks
12-23-08, 02:59 PM
Is it designed differently from the one in the Z06? I keep up with the Corvette guys as I've had one myself, but from what I've seen there is an epidemic of problems with the T60, from notchy shifting, to grinding noises to complete failures.

I know the Tremec gearboxes T56 and T60 in general are some of the best there are, they've been bulletproof in the Vipers for some time now, but the Z06's are having problems for some reason and no one knows if it's the compatibilty with the rest of the rear end or what. I sure hope they have it worked out in the V.

Secondly, I'm a little dissapointed that the auto is faster even though it's heavier. Makes it tempting to get an auto, but I'm a track guy and I just cant see myself doing that.

I'd also like to know how springs or coil-overs would affect the magnetic suspension. I plan to lower, put some nice aggressive track-ish looking wheels on it and get rid of the chrome bling, it looks too classy for me, I want it to look mean. That, about 600 hp, and 2900 lbs or less, and I'd be good to go. May do my own racing type seats, lightweight wheels and nice sounding exhaust. That should do the trick.

I'm thinking high 11's at 122 mph range.

Yeah, I've done this quite a few times so forgive me for getting ahead of myself.

From what I've read I believe the Transmission is much closer to the manual in the ZR1. I don't know about the gear ratios but all of the reviewers have stated this transmission is much smoother than past versions (Corvette & Cadillac).

Heavychevy1
12-23-08, 03:24 PM
From what I've read I believe the Transmission is much closer to the manual in the ZR1. I don't know about the gear ratios but all of the reviewers have stated this transmission is much smoother than past versions (Corvette & Cadillac).



That's good to know. By the time I'm ready to get one, pretty much all of any issue the may arise will have done so by then. The good thing is that the car is based on an already solid platform so they didnt have all that much work to do.

Now lets hope they do the same with the Z06 so it can rule the world.

EricVonHa
12-23-08, 11:42 PM
Is it designed differently from the one in the Z06? I keep up with the Corvette guys as I've had one myself, but from what I've seen there is an epidemic of problems with the T60, from notchy shifting, to grinding noises to complete failures.

I know the Tremec gearboxes T56 and T60 in general are some of the best there are, they've been bulletproof in the Vipers for some time now, but the Z06's are having problems for some reason...

Secondly, I'm a little dissapointed that the auto is faster even though it's heavier. Makes it tempting to get an auto, but I'm a track guy and I just cant see myself doing that.

Yeah, I've done this quite a few times so forgive me for getting ahead of myself.

I've gotten over 100k miles of abuse on my ZF's and Tremecs. There has been minimal drag launching. Though, they have seen tons of time at roadcourses.

The automatic cars are faster because of the seriously high (numeric) 1st and 2nd gear ratios. Compare the auto ratios against the manual, and you'll see what I mean. In full auto, the car typically starts out in 2nd gear with normal driving.

jvp
12-25-08, 12:23 PM
I'd also like to know how springs or coil-overs would affect the magnetic suspension. I plan to lower, put some nice aggressive track-ish looking wheels on it and get rid of the chrome bling, it looks too classy for me, I want it to look mean.

Changing the springs will completely screw up the RTD system in the car. Part of the input to the RTD computer is the spring rate, and that's hard set. And, it's incredibly unlikely that anyone will figure out how to "hack" the RTD computer because the effort just isn't worth it.

Aftermarket coil-overs will essentially remove the entire RTD system from the vehicle. You'd be destroying a lot of R&D that GM did on that car just to try and make it track-ready.


That, about 600 hp, and 2900 lbs or less

There is little chance, without completely gutting the car to the bone, that you'll be able to shed 1400+ pounds from the car. You're talking almost 3/4 of a TON! Ain't happening.

If you want a stripped out racing sedan, get an older V and go to town with it. You'll be much better off and probably closer to your goal. Attempting to do all of this with an 09 will completely destroy it, and make it totally unroadworthy.

jas

jjsC6
12-25-08, 12:46 PM
There have been several transmission comments, so I thought I would add mine. I've been serioulsy into Corvettes since 2001 (and seriously into cars since 1965!). I've owned four C6s and two C5s since 01, all of them with manual trannies. My current car is an 09 Z06.

Two of the cars - the 09Z and the 08 436hp coupe have had the new T6060, the others had the T56. Those same basic transmissions have also been used in Mustang Cobras and Vipers, btw.

My experience is that the T56 did not like to be powershifted - the synchros were the week link. Other than that, they were actually considered pretty durable. They also did not like to be shifted into first if you were at a dead stop.

The 6060 is supposed to shift easier. Shifting into first at a stop is no problem at all. The main problem that is very common on the Corvette forums is that when cold, the grind a bit on the 1-2 and 2-3 shift. Cold meaning ambient temperature about 60 degrees or below, and the first two or three minutes of driving. After that they are fine.

Other than these issues, it seems to take a lot of modded power to break them, and even companies like Lingenfelter will tell you that they are pretty strong. The rear differential (which is also the transmission) housing and the half shafts have been the bigger problem on modded Vettes, especially if you go to the drag strip with drag radials.

Sorry for the long explanation, but thought it might be helpful.

Lord Cadillac
12-25-08, 01:11 PM
Welcome aboard! Thank you for signing up!

GMX322V S/C
12-25-08, 04:27 PM
...There is little chance, without completely gutting the car to the bone, that you'll be able to shed 1400+ pounds from the car. You're talking almost 3/4 of a TON! Ain't happening.

If you want a stripped out racing sedan, get an older V and go to town with it. You'll be much better off and probably closer to your goal...Agreed...even then, 2900 lbs would make it lighter than the CTS-VR: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/luxury/112_0612_2006_cadillac_cts_v_comparison/specs.html --a tall order... (I don't think Andy Pilgrim weighs 250)

Heavychevy1
12-25-08, 06:00 PM
My bad, that was a typo, I meant 3900 lbs. Hopefully 3800 lbs. So around 300 lbs less than stock. Still torn between manual and auto though as it's not the car I'll be getting my kicks in most of the time.



As for the suspension I don't think there is any stock suspension that cant be upgraded with a quality set of coil-overs. Manufacturers can hype their R&D all they want to, but race proven technology is never a step down. I could care less about the ride being a little harsh, and I think the magnetic suspension is supposed to be the best combo between street and track electronically controlled.

Look at the ZR-1 and Z06, in head to head comparos, the ZR-1 has much better tires, magnetic suspension, a better weight/hp ratio and is still only 2 seconds faster than the Z06 which still utilizes leaf springs, where one could easily say the tires alone are worth those 2 seconds. In fact when GM had Fellows test the Z06 on both at Road Atlanta prior to the petit Lemans in the Z06, he was 4 seconds faster on the ZR-1 tires than the goodyears in the Z06. So I don't believe the hype, at least not compared to real coilovers, may be great for stock, and just adding springs to lower would be aweful. But a real good coilover setup is the way to go, always, unless they come on the car.

JEM
12-25-08, 06:53 PM
Look at the ZR-1 and Z06, in head to head comparos, the ZR-1 has much better tires, magnetic suspension, a better weight/hp ratio and is still only 2 seconds faster than the Z06 which still utilizes leaf springs, where one could easily say the tires alone are worth those 2 seconds. In fact when GM had Fellows test the Z06 on both at Road Atlanta prior to the petit Lemans in the Z06, he was 4 seconds faster on the ZR-1 tires than the goodyears in the Z06. So I don't believe the hype, at least not compared to real coilovers, may be great for stock, and just adding springs to lower would be aweful. But a real good coilover setup is the way to go, always, unless they come on the car.

All 'Vettes use leafsprings, including the ZR1. What's wrong with that? They're composite pieces, they're compact, lightweight, and in the 'Vette application they do no wheel location, they're strictly a spring.

The advantage of coilovers in race applications is that it's quick and easy to change ride height and spring rates, since the springs are a standard size.

All suspension setups are a compromise. What matters isn't coilovers, it's development time and effort, and what you're trying to achieve.

As seen by their 'Ring times, GM put a whole lot of effort into tuning the 'Vettes (and the CTS-V.) If you want to change the factory setup, fine, but all suspension setups are a compromise (including the OEM bits) and you're just altering that compromise in one direction or another.

It might be possible to make them quicker - though really no aftermarket tuners have the kind of resources that GM threw at the chassis setups in these cars - but in doing so you're going to lose something - NVH isolation, ride quality, component durability, whatever.

jjsC6
12-25-08, 07:47 PM
All 'Vettes use leafsprings, including the ZR1. What's wrong with that? They're composite pieces, they're compact, lightweight, and in the 'Vette application they do no wheel location, they're strictly a spring.

The advantage of coilovers in race applications is that it's quick and easy to change ride height and spring rates, since the springs are a standard size.

All suspension setups are a compromise. What matters isn't coilovers, it's development time and effort, and what you're trying to achieve.

As seen by their 'Ring times, GM put a whole lot of effort into tuning the 'Vettes (and the CTS-V.) If you want to change the factory setup, fine, but all suspension setups are a compromise (including the OEM bits) and you're just altering that compromise in one direction or another.

It might be possible to make them quicker - though really no aftermarket tuners have the kind of resources that GM threw at the chassis setups in these cars - but in doing so you're going to lose something - NVH isolation, ride quality, component durability, whatever.

I agree with this. Actually, the difference between one suspension and another is less important on a race track than on the street (other than his point about being adjustable). Race tracks tend to be well paved as opposed to public roads where poor surfaces require a better suspension in order to keep the tires in contact with the pavement.

As to the 2 seconds, that is based upon one road test. Good info, but I've learned to wait for more data points. In that same test, the Z06 was 2 seconds faster than the Z51. So where does that put us in proving anything?

Don't forget that the ZR1 is somewhere around 260lbs heavier than a Z06, which is actually the car that Corvette sets up to be more of a single purpose performance car.

Unless I was buying the CTS as a pure race car, there is no way I'd give up the stock suspension. I had a Corvette with the F55 (magnetic shocks). While it is tuned to be more of an all around set-up, I learned enough about those shocks to know that it is a fantastic set-up for street purposes.

Mind you, I'm not knocking a change to a set of coilovers, simply stating my opinion on why they just don't make sense to me on a CTS.

jvp
12-25-08, 07:53 PM
As for the suspension I don't think there is any stock suspension that cant be upgraded with a quality set of coil-overs. Manufacturers can hype their R&D all they want to, but race proven technology is never a step down. I could care less about the ride being a little harsh, and I think the magnetic suspension is supposed to be the best combo between street and track electronically controlled.

I'm still not sure the direction you're trying to go. Statement of fact: if you replace the dampers in the V with a coil-over setup, you WILL lose the RTD system, including the adjustable dampers. There are no aftermarket coil-overs that A)have the magnetic oil inside them and B)can work with GM's RTD computer.

If swapping them out with a coil-over is your goal, then fine. Your car will throw all sorts of RTD codes (failure to communicate with front left damper, failure to communicate with front right damper, failure to communicate with ...), and who knows how well it will drive?

It's your car. You can do whatever you want with it, obviously. But I personally think you're being foolish based on all the work GM did with the suspension (and trust me, it was substantial).

jas

Heavychevy1
12-25-08, 09:22 PM
Woah there guys, I'm sure you guys have all the confidence in the world that GM has put the best suspension ever on the car, but I tend not to buy into the manufacturer hype. I believe that stock suspensions can always stand a little more aggression. Nothing foolish about it as I love the ride with coilovers on a car. The codes are another thing though, so unless they can be alleviated, I'll stay with the stock setup. I really latched on to the idea after seeing them on the Alvarez car. Obviously they've worked before to some extent and I can assure you we'll see more like it in the near future.

Again, this is only hypothetical, but there isnt one car to date that hasn't been able to be improved on by the aftermarket in suspension. This wont be any different.

JEM
12-26-08, 01:23 AM
Race tracks tend to be well paved as opposed to public roads where poor surfaces require a better suspension in order to keep the tires in contact with the pavement.


That's the beauty of the Nordschleife as a testing ground, it is not built like a typical modern-day racetrack.

The pavement is generally good, but it's got (by design, and it'd be less useful if it didn't have them) lumps and yumps and crests and dips and all kinds of 'surface character' that you won't find on a typical racetrack (certainly not the Nurburgring 'Grand-Prix Strecke' where the F1 cars run) - and that doesn't even include the Karrussell and the 'little Karrussell' that are these tight little turns with Nazi-era slabs of concrete down on the lower banked section - if you're driving that nine-tenths or better and you don't have the suspension compliance to handle the ka-WHOMP ka-WHOMP ka-WHOMP of the expansion joints with the suspension heavily loaded you'll find yourself bounced off the topside of the turn.

Suspension travel, compliance, and freedom from odd bumpsteer behavior matters a LOT at that place and I'm pretty confident that a lot of aftermarket coilover setups not properly sorted in such an environment would cost you at least 15sec/lap over what GM put in the car.

jjsC6
12-26-08, 08:23 AM
Woah there guys, I'm sure you guys have all the confidence in the world that GM has put the best suspension ever on the car, but I tend not to buy into the manufacturer hype. I believe that stock suspensions can always stand a little more aggression. Nothing foolish about it as I love the ride with coilovers on a car. The codes are another thing though, so unless they can be alleviated, I'll stay with the stock setup. I really latched on to the idea after seeing them on the Alvarez car. Obviously they've worked before to some extent and I can assure you we'll see more like it in the near future.

Again, this is only hypothetical, but there isnt one car to date that hasn't been able to be improved on by the aftermarket in suspension. This wont be any different.

I don't necessarily think it can't be improved upon as a whole. But the magnetic shocks are truly state of the art. Ferrari 599s that start at over $300k use them. I just don't think it makes sense if the car is going to be street driven to strive for something better.

One of the problems with an aftermarket coilover setup is finding someone who knows how to set it up properly for your car. The more adjustments it has, the more risk for not adjusting it properly. That is where the factory has the advantage. They spend thousands and thousands of miles on both race tracks on public roads with a laptop computer and a suspension engineering setting it up.

Heavychevy1
12-26-08, 08:49 AM
I'll tell you what, when I get my car I'll do laps on the stock suspension and then at a later date with the only mod being coilovers. I bet you the coilovers will be faster. And this is not the nurburgring I'm driving on. Of course this will all be after finding a way to get rid of codes.

I'm sure reese cox at MTI will come up with something.


Oh yeah, and might I add, the best part about coilovers is the adjustability, I can make them street compliant and then gear them for higher G's in case I decide to slap some michelin sport cups on it for a track day. My decision on the proper spring rates will determine how streetable they are.

jvp
12-26-08, 09:18 AM
Oh yeah, and might I add, the best part about coilovers is the adjustability, I can make them street compliant and then gear them for higher G's in case I decide to slap some michelin sport cups on it for a track day. My decision on the proper spring rates will determine how streetable they are.

For everyone's edification, I've had this discussion with a buddy of mine who was a design engineer on the V. He had this to say about the MRs:


MR really opens up the "bandwidth" of the chassis. In my experience, it desensitizes the car to vehicle speed, both in terms of ride and handling. It's not unusual for a non-MR car to feel great in one driving regime (e.g., medium-speed road course), and less than great in others (too firm at low speeds, or too twitchy at high speeds). MR just disposes of those compromises.

MR can also mask minor chassis quirks, especially in lateral transients, by allowing the tuner to vary the front/rear distribution of damping during the transients. It works a lot like a variable stabilizer bar. Too reluctant to turn in? Crank up rear damping on lateral transients, then shift the damping balance forward after the car rotates to keep it from feeling skittish.

No matter what you do aftermarket, you will not get that kind of instant adaptability from the suspension. If you're OK with that, because you want to try to eek out a second or two on a road course, have at it. My suspicion is: you'll be wasting a significant amount of cash, you'll cause your RTD computer to throw all sorts of annoying codes, and really, you won't be much better off.

Want to improve the handling of the V even more? One word: Hoosiers.

jas

Heavychevy1
12-26-08, 10:01 AM
Unless the car has solid bushings on it, putting hoosiers on it will cause premature deterioration of rubber bushing and other mounts that flex during high G transfers. Then I'll be trying to replace all of the bushing mounts. Because of the weight I doubt anything stickier than a MPSC will ever touch the car.

From what I'm gathering from the technician, the only compromise is the harsh low speed vs high speed stability, that sounds impressive. All of the other aspects can easily be tuned by a good suspension tuner, and I have that. I would bet you the car is tuned to understeer with all that power, so with this complicated gadgetry you cant change any suspension components (sways) without it going crazy? Sorry but I will not be held hostage by any factory suspension. I may want an extra degree of negative camber, lowering the car will make it more responsive, full 3 way adjustable coilovers will also have bump/rebound settings that do the remainder of the above. Like I said the codes are the only limiting factor for me.

Again, I'll drive it and see, but as with most cars, everything is not all that it's hyped to be. Put hoosiers on and watch the car lift wheels off the track in corners with body roll and twisting the chassis to the point of damaging certain suspension components. The worst thing you can do is slap hoosiers on a car that doesnt have a suspension that can handle them.

jvp
12-26-08, 10:05 AM
From what I'm gathering from the technician, the only compromise is the harsh low speed vs high speed stability, that sounds impressive.

Correction 1: he's not a technician. He's one of the development engineers on the car who has spent a considerable amount of time driving, tuning, dialing in, driving, tuning, dialing in, etc.

Correction 2: that compromise isn't all he's talking about. You need to re-read the quote; there's a lot more to the MR system than that.


The worst thing you can do is slap hoosiers on a car that doesnt have a suspension that can handle them.

It's been tested with Hoosiers. It works fine with them.

jas

Short-Throw
12-26-08, 10:42 AM
It's been tested with Hoosiers. It works fine with them.

jas

It works fine with them where?

There isn't ample adjustment with the stock cam bolts to provide enough camber allowing the Hooisers to work optimally. Also, there's a lot more to it than just slapping on an 'R' compound tire. Ask your engineer friend why this isn't so simple with the ZR-1. Some of it has to do with what you quoted him on, which was spot on :thumbsup:

You sure you don't mean MPSCs?

jvp
12-26-08, 10:50 AM
You sure you don't mean MPSCs?

Positive. They tested the car with R6s. It's anyone's guess as to where, but if I were a betting man, I'd say the Lutz Ring.

jas

jjsC6
12-26-08, 11:25 AM
Unless the car has solid bushings on it, putting hoosiers on it will cause premature deterioration of rubber bushing and other mounts that flex during high G transfers. Then I'll be trying to replace all of the bushing mounts. Because of the weight I doubt anything stickier than a MPSC will ever touch the car.

From what I'm gathering from the technician, the only compromise is the harsh low speed vs high speed stability, that sounds impressive. All of the other aspects can easily be tuned by a good suspension tuner, and I have that. I would bet you the car is tuned to understeer with all that power, so with this complicated gadgetry you cant change any suspension components (sways) without it going crazy? Sorry but I will not be held hostage by any factory suspension. I may want an extra degree of negative camber, lowering the car will make it more responsive, full 3 way adjustable coilovers will also have bump/rebound settings that do the remainder of the above. Like I said the codes are the only limiting factor for me.

Again, I'll drive it and see, but as with most cars, everything is not all that it's hyped to be. Put hoosiers on and watch the car lift wheels off the track in corners with body roll and twisting the chassis to the point of damaging certain suspension components. The worst thing you can do is slap hoosiers on a car that doesnt have a suspension that can handle them.

I must admit that my comments were not aimed at someone who plans to do serious tracking of the car. My comments have been more aimed at street driving, and someone who wants to take it to the track once just for giggles and grins.

You sound pretty hard-core, and no doubt you are no dummy. Good luck and have fun.

Heavychevy1
12-26-08, 08:19 PM
No problem, thanks for the help and information from all of you guys.

Mike, have you gotten to drive your car in anything other than snow since you got it? How do you feel about the suspension?

Short-Throw
12-26-08, 09:27 PM
Mike, have you gotten to drive your car in anything other than snow since you got it? How do you feel about the suspension?

Heavy,

I wish I could say I've driven this car to it's limits, I haven't had the chance yet. I've taken a few ramps as well as decreasing radius turns and the car felt very balanced. Slow in and fast out is the key to driving this car given it's weight. I do love the suspension and think it does a fantastic job. I drove the ZR-1 at VIR, RA, Putnam and Autobahn before it was released to the public and I was very impressed how the MR suspension performed on track. That being said, judging by your comments, I think the car will pleasantly surprise you of what it's capable of, but it may lack some of the initial turn-in you can achieve from Motons/Penske 3-ways and spherical bearings. I personally would not rip out the MR suspension in this car ever and you know what I'm used to.


I will have to wait until March for the real test once our track opens back up.
Having countless timed laps in my Z06, T1 and Beast, I'm very anxious to see how far off those paces this car will be. 12 seconds behind the Z06 on the N-Ring is incredible.

Mike

tblack
12-26-08, 09:46 PM
As a fellow M guy, welcome!

Well actually I'm a V guy who became and an M guy and is ready to go back to being a V guy.

Heavychevy1
12-26-08, 11:00 PM
As a fellow M guy, welcome!

Well actually I'm a V guy who became and an M guy and is ready to go back to being a V guy.

Which M are you in now? I still love me some M's, but wont hesitate to make one give me a point by at the track.




Heavy,

I wish I could say I've driven this car to it's limits, I haven't had the chance yet. I've taken a few ramps as well as decreasing radius turns and the car felt very balanced. Slow in and fast out is the key to driving this car given it's weight. I do love the suspension and think it does a fantastic job. I drove the ZR-1 at VIR, RA, Putnam and Autobahn before it was released to the public and I was very impressed how the MR suspension performed on track. That being said, judging by your comments, I think the car will pleasantly surprise you of what it's capable of, but it may lack some of the initial turn-in you can achieve from Motons/Penske 3-ways and spherical bearings. I personally would not rip out the MR suspension in this car ever and you know what I'm used to.


I will have to wait until March for the real test once our track opens back up.
Having countless timed laps in my Z06, T1 and Beast, I'm very anxious to see how far off those paces this car will be. 12 seconds behind the Z06 on the N-Ring is incredible.

Mike

Pleasant surprises are always good. I guess my expectations must be too low. I hate body roll. From the vids it does look very composed in the turns and not a lot of swaying back and forth. I'm not looking to waist money on suspension, I just figured the car could use a little lowering for visual appeal and figured I'd have to go with a full coilover setup to have comparable handling to the MR instead of the spring only swap which tends to always fail when it comes to performance.

I look forward to your impressions when you get a chance to really put it to the test.

jvp
12-27-08, 02:29 AM
12 seconds behind the Z06 on the N-Ring is incredible.

I suspect the difference at the Ring would be much greater if GM went back and did a rolling start with the Z06. But, I agree: the V is one quick SOB.

jas

Heavychevy1
12-27-08, 08:47 AM
I suspect the difference at the Ring would be much greater if GM went back and did a rolling start with the Z06. But, I agree: the V is one quick SOB.

jas


Are the V tires the same compound as the ZR-1 tires?

Imagine those on a Z06 with a Rolling start. They got 4 seconds on a 2.5 mile track with them an fellows driving, I'd imagine 8-10 sec easily at the ring on those tires. The Z06 is low 7:30's/high 7:20's car with a pro driving. The ZR-1 is a low 7:20's car, mero did great, but I'm sure Magnussen could pull a few seconds out.

That being said, the V has some time left in it too. Heinricy is very good, but a ring pro could probably get a few more seconds out of it.

Short-Throw
12-27-08, 09:14 AM
The ZR-1 is a low 7:20's car, mero did great, but I'm sure Magnussen could pull a few seconds out.

That being said, the V has some time left in it too. Heinricy is very good, but a ring pro could probably get a few more seconds out of it.

If you are referring to a driver that has countless laps at N-Ring vs a pro driver, you have the right idea. At the Ring, local knowledge is far more superior than that extra bit of talent the top dogs have. The real obstacle is that the Marquis drivers have little time on that track.

I drove Jim Mero around the track in a ZR-1 showing him a few of the lines at Autobahn just prior to GMs 2009 line-up intro this past August. When we switched seats it was very obvious why he has been chosen to do a lot of the performance driving. We were on a cold damp track and he threw the car around as best as I've seen anybody. Mero has countless laps at the N-Ring and is a solid choice for testing. I'm not so sure there is more time to be eked out from skill as opposed to conditions.



Mike

Short-Throw
12-27-08, 09:36 AM
That being said, the V has some time left in it too. Heinricy is very good, but a ring pro could probably get a few more seconds out of it.

This video is a re-run here, but let it load and listen from the 4:28 mark until the 5:30 mark.

YouTube - Cadillac CTS-V Better than Corvette ZR1? - Garage419

Heavychevy1
12-27-08, 11:08 AM
If you are referring to a driver that has countless laps at N-Ring vs a pro driver, you have the right idea. At the Ring, local knowledge is far more superior than that extra bit of talent the top dogs have. The real obstacle is that the Marquis drivers have little time on that track.

I drove Jim Mero around the track in a ZR-1 showing him a few of the lines at Autobahn just prior to GMs 2009 line-up intro this past August. When we switched seats it was very obvious why he has been chosen to do a lot of the performance driving. We were on a cold damp track and he threw the car around as best as I've seen anybody. Mero has countless laps at the N-Ring and is a solid choice for testing. I'm not so sure there is more time to be eked out from skill as opposed to conditions.



Mike

He admittedly made a few mistakes, some of which you can see on the video, like when he threw his hand up after blowing one turn (cant remember name of it).

As opposed to Jan, who's raced for years at the ring. I'd give Jan a couple seconds over Mero. Not just any pro though, someone like Jan who's raced the ring for years on end and is a hotshoe pro guy. He did 7:42 in a Z06 on runflats from a standing start with only a few hours to try tying Walter Rohrl in a GT3 on MPSC from a rolling start. That's no small accomplishment.

Whatever the case, whether it's Jan or Mero, the ZR-1 has a few seconds left in it. Not to mention Mero had a pretty good headwind on the back straight which could have cost him a second or two just on that straight.

arr0gant
12-27-08, 02:34 PM
Heavychevy from 6speed? Whats up man!

I've owned a CTS-V, as well as a 911 Turbo (as you know, if you remember me from 6speed) and now an E90 M3...and I've driven the E39 M5.

The last CTS-V didn't come close to giving you the drivers feel/position connected feel of the E39 M5, E46 M3 and especially the current M3. I only had my CTS-V for around 8 months. Between the numb/disconnected feel, uncontrollable axle-hop and peeling paint on the stereo/ cheap dashboard, I couldn't wait to get out of it...and did.

All that said, I'm looking forward to drving the NEW CTS-V. I can tell you this, tons of power or not, I'll know as soon as I get in the car, put it in 1st and drive away, whether it has that drivers car feel as the E39 M5 has. If I don't get that "connected", "drivers car" feel, everything after that won't matter.

I just saw a brand new V on the road yesterday...it looked AWESOME!! Can't wait to get a better look!!

Heavychevy1
12-27-08, 11:04 PM
Yeah, that's me man, glad to see more 6speeders here. Trust me, I know how you feel on the M5, I absolutely loved that car and still miss it to this day. But I'm really infatuated with the new V though I'm admittedly a GM skeptic in terms of overall performance cars. Maybe too much internet has gotten to me, but I'm being patient to see what gripes the V guys come up with and maybe by that time I can decide on a color and drivetrain. I also promised my wife a Lexus LS so she has to come first anyways.

By advice, I'm not going to drive until I'm ready to buy because I rarely leave without buying when I like something.