: Anyone ever do a headgasket in the car?



Krashed989
12-15-08, 01:32 PM
My dads 99 eldorado has a blown headgasket. Cylinders 2 and 4 are the ones with the leak. I have heard somewhere on here that it is possible to do the front bank headgasket with the engine in the car. I would like to attempt it seeing as m dad doesnt want me to pull another engine in his driveway. lol... My concerns with doing the repair with the engine still in are that the timing chain may be difficult to deal with, and that the coolant crossover will be a pain. I know it would probably be easier with the engine out but my dad says he would trade the car in before he takes the engine out.

Anyone have any suggestions? Insight?

dkozloski
12-15-08, 01:38 PM
It's been done by forum members but you could hear the moaning and groaning clear up here in Alaska. In at least one case the other head let go shortly after the first was repaired and the engine had to be pulled anyway.

Krashed989
12-15-08, 01:52 PM
lol So in that case, do the job. Then quickly trade it in!... haha

Ranger
12-15-08, 03:41 PM
There is a recent post at caddyinfo by a guy who did BOTH in the car and actually claims "It was not too bad", contrary to popular opinion.

dkozloski
12-15-08, 04:01 PM
I remember several years ago somebody telling about doing both heads in the car. It seems to me he was able to pivot the engine away from the firewall enough to be able to do the work. My guess is that the possibilities would depend on the individual year and model. There are only about 5600 threads to look through to find it.

jeffrsmith
12-15-08, 08:59 PM
Time would be best spent dropping the engine. It is enough of a pain getting the timing chains right with the engine out, I can't imagine the nightmare, or the amount of time it would take trying to do it in the car. IIRC there was a post where someone did attempt to do the job with the engine in the car and ended up dropping it to finish it. Dropping the engine is not that bad of a job.

Destroyer
12-15-08, 09:45 PM
Jake (97Eldo) does it with the motor in the car. He does this professionally though and it's probably not the easiest method for an amateur.

Krashed989
12-16-08, 03:54 PM
Sounds like it should be a load of fun, but at least it's possible. I'm not an amateur, though I'm not a pro either. Working my up there though. I could be ASE certified in January. Though it might be easier to take the written test in May. I'm also an auto mechanics major in college, but I just switched to that (from Liberal Arts, bleh) so i wont be done till May or June 2010.

[NortHStaR]
12-16-08, 08:16 PM
I pulled both heads in the car and only decided to take the motor out to seal the half case, it really isnt that bad if you disconnect all the motor mounts from the frame you can tilt the motor to give you all the room you could want.

The crossover is a PITA though!

tateos
12-16-08, 09:11 PM
Dropping the cradle is easy - do not be afraid - it is much easier than trying to do the job with the engine in the car. Now, if you absolutely can't drop the cradle, for some reason, then yes, I guess it is still possible to do the job, but I would not want to do it. I tried my HG project out by trying to pull the engine out the top - what a pain! Giving up and then dropping the cradle was the best thing I could have done - re-installation was so much easier, because everything could be re-assembled out of the car, and then just put the whole thing back in the car pretty much in 1 piece.

N0DIH
12-16-08, 09:22 PM
Do you drop cradle and raise car to get it out?

Ranger
12-16-08, 10:35 PM
I think that is the only way. Disconnect everything, raise the car and slide it out. Don't sound all that easy to me.

[NortHStaR]
12-17-08, 01:11 AM
I ended up just pulling my motor out the top, had no problem AT ALL.

Dont be afraid of pulling the motor either way you do it, its NOT hard its just time consuming :bomb:

zonie77
12-17-08, 01:29 AM
The "guru" said he did one in the car. I think he said he wouldn't do another one that way.

The timing chains are really hard to get to that way. Just look at that side!

Doing the timeserts properly would be a real concern. You have to use some kind of short drill. I think you need a 1/2" drill so that wouldn't be too easy to find although you may be able to rent something.

I thought 97Eldo pulls the engine out the top. He's got everything set up to do it. If you are only doing one it is easier to drop the cradle, if you are making a business out of it and doing oil pan and/or case seal then it makes sense to pull it out the top. It was designed to drop out so some bolts are very hard to reach to pull out, if you get the tools set up it wouldn't be so bad but the learning curve would be steeper than dropping it.

Several (at least) started to do it in the car and gave up.

I think that if one gasket failed the other is close behind. I had both bad every time but one was worse than the other.

N0DIH
12-17-08, 01:53 AM
I did a crank swap on my 455 with it in my 80 T/A, won't do THAT again.... EASIER to yank engine first....

Krashed989
12-17-08, 04:28 PM
I dunno... this probably wont happen. My dad says he would want a shop to do it so that he can get the work warrantied if possible.


Dropping the cradle is easy - do not be afraid - it is much easier than trying to do the job with the engine in the car. Now, if you absolutely can't drop the cradle, for some reason, then yes, I guess it is still possible to do the job, but I would not want to do it. I tried my HG project out by trying to pull the engine out the top - what a pain! Giving up and then dropping the cradle was the best thing I could have done - re-installation was so much easier, because everything could be re-assembled out of the car, and then just put the whole thing back in the car pretty much in 1 piece.

I hear that! When I did my engine swap in my 94 I took the donor out from the top. That was 100x's harder than taking the cradle out from the bottom of my car.
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1213.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1242.jpg
Afterwards: http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1252.jpg


My dad's one is the white eldo
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1245.jpg

tateos
12-17-08, 08:46 PM
Calypso green - I had a 94 like that - a nice rich color - looks good but not too hard to keep looking clean. I also had a Montana Blue '94 (on lease) and now have White Diamond ETC and a White Diamond DTS

jeffrsmith
12-17-08, 11:50 PM
If you do the repair quick enough your dad may not even notice that it was done in the drive way.

Krashed989
12-31-08, 11:22 PM
My dad just got a quote from the dealership for $10,000 to do the job... Sounds like a we dont want to do the job unless you have lots of moolah so we can party and get bonuses, price.

So it looks like I'm going to do the job. He wants both banks done, so I am going to drop the cradle and do them.

I do have a question though. Are Norms inserts (bigserts) better than timeserts? Does one last longer than the other or is it just a matter of opinion?

dkozloski
01-01-09, 12:29 AM
Timeserts=ingenuity
Norm's inserts =brute force and akwardness

jeffrsmith
01-01-09, 11:36 AM
I think that there are a lot of people out there using both. When I did my HGs I went with Norms because of what I read here on the forum. I looked at timeserts at my local parts store and was not overly impressed with the size - I think the reasoning behind how Norms were designed it seems to make sense and the inserts are bigger than the regular Timeserts, they are longer (more thread in the block) and the outside threads are much coarser (theoretically giving a much better bite in the aluminum, assuming the integrity of the aluminum in the block is not compromised) preventing the insert from pulling.

When you buy Norms you get everything you need to do the job, except the drill motor and a drill guide. For a drill guide I drilled a hole in the aluminum tap block that Norm supplies and it worked just fine as a drill guide.

If you want to do timeserts you have to buy a timsert "kit" which is pretty wickedly overpriced. You have to use the "special tool" to put the insert in the block. Some of the Caddy Techs on the forum can chime in on timserts.

Since I replaced my HGs last summer 97eldocoupe has come up with a "stud kit". If this had been out when I was doing mine I probably would have considered using it. My only concern with using studs would have been tolerance issues with how straight you drill the block. I drilled my block with a hand drill and I know that not all the holes were 100% straight but I was still able to put the heads back on and torque them to the proper specs. To 97eldocoupe's credit he does provide a drill guide "similar" looking to the one that comes with the timesert kit, which should provide a reasonable amount of control over the drilling process. Maybe someone who has used this stud kit can chime in on how hard it was to use.

Is any one method/kit better than another? - who really knows, but when you get into this job just take your time and double/triple check your work - you don't want to have to pull it back apart after you are finsihed.

Krashed989
01-01-09, 09:35 PM
Thanks guys for all the info!

I started the removal process today... I'm working somewhat blindly because I dont have a FSM for my dads car, only my 94. Almost all of the electronics are different, and all of the wire routing is different. It's making this interesting for me. I've just been removing stuff that I know for sure has to be disconnected/removed. I'm probably going to go to alldataDIY.com to look up the real technical stuff, unless I find it on here.

Pics to come!

Necrosan
01-02-09, 07:00 AM
Use 97EldoCoupes stud kit.
The engine will run forever!!!

jeffrsmith
01-02-09, 10:43 AM
I'm probably going to go to alldataDIY.com to look up the real technical stuff, unless I find it on here.


Krashed - Go over to the Tech Tips - I posted a link that will get you to online manuals that is free.

Good luck!

[NortHStaR]
01-02-09, 12:40 PM
I went with 97eldos stud kit, its an awsome kit and the drill jig Jake provides makes drilling the holes painless.

You can read more about his stud kit on his website northstarperformance.com

Or search for his thread entitled, Northstar HG repair without inserts.

tateos
01-02-09, 06:34 PM
Yeah - what jeffrsmith said - I used Norm's - worked out great - maybe would have considered the stud kit if it had been available - I think both solutions are good. I don't see any advantage to the timeserts, except maybe that they are factory approved if you work at a dealership

scott92deville
01-04-09, 02:26 AM
Hey folks just a quick question(s) about doing this job yourself- approximately how high do you have to lift the car once the motor is unbolted and ready to drop, and how are you DIYers lifting the car? Thanks for any info.

Scott

Krashed989
01-04-09, 03:45 AM
Hey folks just a quick question(s) about doing this job yourself- approximately how high do you have to lift the car once the motor is unbolted and ready to drop, and how are you DIYers lifting the car? Thanks for any info.

Scott

I just finished dropping the cradle. It's in the driveway in front of my dads car now. You have to lift the front end pretty high in order to clear the engine, more than 3ft high. What I did to lift the car that high was I took an engine crane and instead of hooking it up to the engine, I hooked it up to the frame member above where the radiator goes (radiator is out). You just have to be careful about the wiring harness that runs under it. I threaded the chain through to avoid pinching it.

This time instead of using my dad's handtruck, he brought up a pallet jack and I used that to put the cradle on (fits perfectly!).

I dont know how, but I somehow managed to drop the cradle and leave the A/C system in tact. It was REALLY hard to maneuver the compressor around to get it out of the way. I had to take out the alternator and a mounting bracket in order to make it even remotely possible to do this though. This car did have one major difference that I almost didn't catch before it was too late -- the passenger side brake line runs along the front of the cradle. On my 94 it's not even touching the cradle so I didnt even think about it untill I saw it.

I only have pics from a couple days ago when I was dismantling the engine and getting it ready to come out. I was so busy that I didnt take any pics today or yesterday. I will take some pics tomorrow though.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1361.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1362.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1366.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1367.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1368.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1370.jpg

Tomorrow I get to have some fun dissecting the engine! :) ... After work that is. I work from 7 to 4 tomorrow.

Krashed989
01-05-09, 09:28 PM
Here are some more pics:

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1371.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1372.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1374.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1375.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1376.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1378.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1379.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1380.jpg

jeffrsmith
01-06-09, 06:34 PM
Wow, that looks sooooo familiar, it almost brings back bad memories.

Keep it up and you will have it done in no time.

AlBundy
01-06-09, 07:06 PM
and keep the pics comming. Video some of it if you can.:thumbsup:

Krashed989
01-06-09, 07:55 PM
Here's a few more pics, and I have a quick question. The waterpump drive pulley attached to the end of the intake cam has to be removed to get the valve cover off. It's made of what seems to be hardened plastic. So my question is, is it okay to put the puller on the outer edge of the pulley, or will the pulley crack? Do I have to get a smaller puller on the little lip near the center?

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1384.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1385.jpg

This is the pulley in question:
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1387.jpg

And thanks for all the support and everything guys! :)

Ohh yeah, and the heads are going to be sent to Magoo's to be reconditioned. I Could take them to the college and do that myself, but that would be too much work! :p

dkozloski
01-06-09, 08:56 PM
The waterpump pulley comes off with an alternator pulley puller.

Krashed989
01-06-09, 09:10 PM
Thank you very much!

jeffrsmith
01-06-09, 09:29 PM
Or you can use a Power Steering Pulley puller.

DO NOT PUT A PULLER ON THE PLASTIC - it will break.

jeffrsmith
01-06-09, 09:31 PM
Based on the paint pen writing on the waterpump pulley - looks like it could have been a replacement procured from the wreckers.

Krashed989
01-06-09, 09:52 PM
Ahh ok thanks!... Here's a few more pics... My dad's going to bring the pullers later on so I can dig deeper. I'm kinda running out of things I can remove without the pullers.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1390.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1389.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1388.jpg

And the oil in there looks like mustard... The HG is blown so bad that the dex-cool mixed with the oil.

Krashed989
01-07-09, 04:16 AM
Today I took off everything I could get off without the pullers. Now I have the pullers so I will probably get the heads off tomorrow. This project is not going to be done anytime soon. On monday I will be going back to college and starting back on my Isuzu project.

This is my thread detailing the isuzu project: http://forum.planetisuzoo.com/viewtopic.php?t=25384

tateos
01-07-09, 06:24 PM
Ah - those picture bring back some memories!

Krashed989
01-07-09, 06:55 PM
Here's some more pics.

I just have to say, HOLY CRAP those head bolts are tight! (Chains are out and everything is disconnected from both heads)... I dont have a 1/2" to 3/8" adapter for my breaker bar and I took off 7 bolts so far with my biggest 3/8" drive ratchet. It was crazy. Every bolt was a new injury. lol. I think I'm going to just head down to work and borrow the adapter from my boss.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1391.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1392.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1393.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1394.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1395.jpg

Krashed989
01-07-09, 10:18 PM
I got the heads off and it was pretty obvious which cylinders had the leak. It was also pretty obvious that my dad has developed a light foot! lol Lots of carbon in there! The cylinders with the leak were steam cleaned from burning the coolant off.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1396.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1397.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1398.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1399.jpg

tateos
01-08-09, 04:22 PM
Lots of nice pics. I used an air grinder with a wire wheel to de-carbon the pistons and the entire combustion chamber including the valves. Came out great!

[NortHStaR]
01-09-09, 10:40 PM
I used oven cleaner to clean up the carbon, spray on let sit and wipe off worked like a charm.

Krashed989
01-20-09, 11:28 PM
I was surprised at how easy it was to clean everything. I used PB blaster penetrating oil and an abrasive cloth to clean the piston tops. I also cleaned off the gasket surface with a very fine tooth wire-wheel. After all that I timeserted the block. It's a fairly easy process, very time consuming though. I did have to go out and buy a couple cans of compressed air (usually used to dust off keyboards) to blow all of the aluminum chips out of each hole. There were a couple of holes that I was worried about (looked like they were very corroded) but after I drilled them, they ALL looked beautiful. I couldn't have asked for better holes to tap. I think I got lucky on that one. If there was a lottery in Hawaii I would have bought a ticket. I'm still waiting for the heads to come back from Magoo's. They found that one of the cam lobes was very rounded and its lifter was cupped out from it. I went there and looked at it myself and I was very surprised that I didn't notice it when I was removing the heads. So, they are ordering a new cam and set of lifters.

I took a few pics of the timeserts and whatnot but I don't have my camera at the moment so I cant upload them. I'll post those pics later on.

Ranger
01-20-09, 11:34 PM
I used PB blaster penetrating oil and an abrasive cloth to clean the piston tops.
Tell me you didn't use ScotchBrite.

Krashed989
01-20-09, 11:57 PM
No not scotchbrite. I've heard of that stuff... I made sure it had no chemicals in it before I used it.

Ranger
01-21-09, 12:00 AM
It's not the chemicals.

Krashed989
01-21-09, 03:26 AM
If it's not chemicals... then what's wrong with using it?? :hmm:

Mark C
01-21-09, 07:35 AM
The scothbrite style pads have silicon grit embedded in them and they come off as you use them. If you don't get all the grit out it will wipe out the honing pattern and rings in your cylinders and the car will start burnin huge amounts of oil over time.

Ranger
01-21-09, 01:06 PM
Not to mention the bearings. It would be like adding a little silica sand to your next oil change.

dkozloski
01-21-09, 01:43 PM
There are three things that need to be taken away from mechanics and never given back; black vinyl electricians tape, silicon sealer, and Scotch-Brite pads.

Krashed989
01-21-09, 03:24 PM
Ahh I see... I didnt touch the honing pattern with the pads (not scotchbrite, but I dunno if it was similar), but I'll be sure to clean everything twice before reassembly. Thanks for telling me.

planocolt
01-21-09, 06:16 PM
How did you pull the timing chains?

Krashed989
01-21-09, 08:59 PM
To pull off the timing chains i simply took off the tensioners and chain guides. Any movement of the cams is nothing to worry about because all it means is that valves are closing. The valves are safer when closed because the pistons can't hit them.... I do know that retiming this engine is going to be interesting though because it will be hard to keep the cams in place.

tateos
01-22-09, 12:54 PM
Timing is EASY

planocolt
01-22-09, 02:48 PM
OK, I'll bite, you are timing 4 cams and two chains with a crankshaft, how exactly is that easy?

tateos
01-22-09, 07:23 PM
There is a diagram in the manual - also posted here in the Forums several times.

Personally, I did not disturb the crank to idler chain, because I left the oil pump in the whole time. So you just get the crank and idler gears to match up, then the four cam gears at 12:00 in relation to the head, then you are done.

jeffrsmith
01-24-09, 10:28 AM
There is a diagram in the manual - also posted here in the Forums several times.

Personally, I did not disturb the crank to idler chain, because I left the oil pump in the whole time. So you just get the crank and idler gears to match up, then the four cam gears at 12:00 in relation to the head, then you are done.

Did the same here - it was relatively easy. Make sure you use a square or something similar to line up the cam gears, don't just eyeball it.

bigtone
01-24-09, 08:22 PM
I was preparing a new topic as I just completed a head gasket/timesert job on my 98 deville, but I thought I'd chime in here first. Timing is actually quite easy, alot of guys make it out to be tougher than what it is. I locked the crank with the engine at TDC #1, tie wrapped the cam gears to the chains, then locked the cams by removing a cap and reinstalling with paper between the journal and the bearing. If nothing moves you dont have to time anything. That being said, the rear chain slipped in the intermediate gear inside the engine while the heads were off. I knew right away upon reassembly because the gears would not line up on the cams. I slid the chain 4 teeth, the cam gears aligned, and all is well. I did double check by turning the engine over by hand after I reassembled it, then I spun it with the starter and did a cranking compression test to compare front to back cylinders. I found a few shortcuts along the way, like not removing the timing cover and balancer, I was planning to post it all.

Krashed989
01-26-09, 06:20 PM
Here's a few pics:

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1400.jpg
A hole that was timeserted.... You can only see the edge of the insert though.
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1401.jpg
The drill guide and whatnot.
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1402.jpg
All of the shavings came out shiney. :)
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1403.jpg
A timesert ready to be installed.
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/100_1404.jpg

Krashed989
02-02-09, 12:57 AM
I just want to give a quick update... Magoo's still has the heads. [/update]

Actually I went through my pics to see if I could find the worn cam and sure enough I found it. The lifter that goes with it is very cupped also. I wonder if there is some kind of lubrication problem here... hmm. Is this common??

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Krashed989/Worncam.jpg

mtflight
02-02-09, 04:29 PM
Yep think this is the whole debate about flat tappets vs roller finger followers (2000 and up Northstar has half the friction in this area) and the anti-wear additive that has been gradually phased-out of our oil by the EPA, "ZDDP."





More modern, current production engines are designed to run with the minimum ZDP oils and friction modified oils. Clearances are changed, designs are changed to add roller followers everywhere that are not ZDP dependent for preventing wear, wear surfaces are hardened where necessary, etc.....

Older engines designed for the SF and SG oils that had more ZDP in them are not as well protected against ZDP depleted oils.


So...technically the older engines should be OK with the new SM oils since the SM oils "technically" supercede the older oils and are backwards compatible. But the newer oils probably are " barely" adequate in terms of anti-wear additives such as ZDP. If the engine is perfect inside it will likely be fine. But if the engine is marginal for wear the ZDP depleted oil MIGHT cause a problem and accelerate wear. Certainly you would not want to use the newer ZDP reduced oils for long change intervals in the older engines.

An older 93 Northstar, for instance, has 32 rubbing element tappets (flat tappets) that require much more ZDP for protection against wear than the 2000 and later Northstars with roller tappets.

If you want to be sure your engine has the best wear protection you can do two things. One, use one of the non-"gasoline engine" oils such as the diesel Rotella or Delvac or Delo oils. Those oils have much more anti-wear protection since they are also certified for diesel use. The other thing you can do is to spike the oil you are using with extra ZDP by adding a pint or quart of GM EOS (General Motors Engine Oil Supplement). The EOS is available at any GM parts counter and is sold as an assembly lube. It is basically plain motor oil with a high concentration of ZDP that will fortify any crankcase fill with the extra ZDP desired for more anti-wear protection. It is the only oil "additive" I would ever recommend as it is specifically designed for this purpose.

If you look at the container of Rotella/Delvac/Delo oil you will see in the fine print that it meets all the API diesel performance specs (combinations of the letters CC and CD, etc.) AND it meets the latest gasoline API performance specs such as SL or SM. Now look at the ILSAC "for gasoline engine" oil across the isle in the autoparts store. Read the fine print. It meets the API gasoline SM specs but does NOT meet any of the diesel performance specs. The diesel specific oil is a much "better" product in terms of wear protection if your engine needs it. Diesels have a much greater need for anti-wear protection due to the soot and combustion byproduct contamination of the oil due to the high compression and high cylinder pressures of the diesel engine, so the oils for diesels have to be much better.

I would recommend the Rotella/Delvac/Delo oils for the 93-99 Northstars, personally. The latest ILSAC fuel economy oils are getting very low in ZDP concentration. Fine with the newest engines on the road but not so fine for a 93 Northstar.

You can get the Rotella/Delvac/Delo oils in 10W30 for your engine but they are much harder to find. Check a truck stop or large equipment supplier. If all you can find is the 15W40 version of the Rotella/Delvac/Delo that is fine in the 93 Northstar. The oil is not that much thicker to hurt anything unless you live in the far north and need to cold start at -40.

The other option is to use one of the "severe service" oils marketed by Mobil that are designed for longer change intervals and marketed as such. If you read those bottles you will notice that they also do NOT meet the ILSAC "for gasoline engine" use as they do not have the ILSAC starburst symbol. That is because those oils designed specifically for longer change intervals also have more ZDP in them that excedes the amount allowed for the ILSAC starburst designation.

I would recommend the conventional diesel Rotella/Delvac/Delo oils. I personally use the Delvac (Mobil) in most everything around the house.

and here's one my own quotes:

Ok it would not surprise me if I did this wrong.

DATA
E.O.S. has ~6000 PPM of ZDDP
API SM oil (2005) has ~870 PPM
API SH oil (1996) has ~1300 PPM


7(870)+0.5(6000)= 9090 and 9090/7.5= 1212 PPM


So @ 7 qts of API SM, + 0.5 qt E.O.S = 7.5qt @ 1212 PPM

Translation:
Adding 1 pint of E.O.S. to 7 quarts of API SM oil (today's generic motor oil) will get the zinc levels close (1212 PPM) to what they were back in 1996 (1300PPM)

RotellaT 15W40, CF-I (not the newest 2007 CF-J) has 1400PPM
The CF-I Rotella has more ZDDP than 7 quarts standard API SM plus a can of GM E.O.S.


In Other News...

I just picked up a pint of EOS @ $8.79
Funny that the invoice says it is discontinued?!
(or maybe that's not funny because it could be reformulated to have less ZDDP????)

"Oil is Killing our cars" http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/northstar-performance-technical-discussion/97698-motor-oil-killing-our-cars-long.html#post962446

my "light knocking" thread:
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/northstar-performance-technical-discussion/94113-light-knocking-does-not-go-away.html

ZDDP http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/northstar-performance-technical-discussion/92425-zddp.html

mtflight
02-02-09, 08:01 PM
Flat Tappet Cam Tech - Righting the Wrongs
"Flat tappet cams have been failing at an alarming rate lately. We dig into what causes these failures, how to fix them and how to prevent future failures." -Hot Rod Mag

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/flat_tappet_cam_tech/index.html

On older engines with flat-tappet lifters, such as the 93-99 Northstar, the camshaft rubs across the lifters and ZDDP is used as a high pressure lubricant. It bonds to the surface of the cam and lifters leaving an ovelapping layer of lubricant.

With the phasing out of ZDDP to help with catalytic converter life (OEMs dont like to replace emissions systems under warranty) cams started going flat everywhere. To aggravate the situation, some detergents included in oils may wipe-out organic deposits (the precious ZDDP!) from engine surfaces.
:alchi:

Krashed989
02-22-09, 12:50 AM
Thank you for all that information man! Here I was going to prelube everything with Lucas oil additive, but I guess the better bet would be to go out and get a quart of that GM engine oil supplement. I just got the heads back from Magoo's also so I will be putting everything back together soon. I just have to wait for a couple last minute parts to come in and I'll be good to go.

N0DIH
02-22-09, 01:23 AM
Yes, use something like GM EOS, but probably better yet get something like the cam companies Moly Lube stuff. Lucas and such aren't meant for engine building/cam installs. And I would toss in a high amount of EOS in the engine oil for startup too.

Submariner409
02-22-09, 01:51 PM
GM EOS has either been phased out or redesigned from what we knew in the black plastic blue label pints of a year ago. It's much lower in ZDDP than before. Look at Comp Cams or Edelbrock for some of their break-in lubes.

You might consider running something like Pennzoil Long Life 10W-30 - its a fleet/diesel rated oil with a much higher ZDDP rating than stock lube oils. Shell ROTELLA and other marine/fleet oils carry similar additive packages.

jeffrsmith
02-22-09, 03:07 PM
Sub,

What oil do you run in yours?

N0DIH
02-22-09, 04:22 PM
GM changed the EOS when they brought it back out?

I was thinking of running 25-50% of a bottle per oil change on my 3800 and 454. Can't hurt much in my book.

I typically run Synthetic Rotella T in my cars. If I run dino oil, (rare) I run 15W40 Rotella T or Delo or Delvac. So probably don't need to run anything added....

My Supercharged 3800 @ 100K miles idles with 57-61 psi oil pressure and upwards 70 psi stock (77 psi cold).....




GM EOS has either been phased out or redesigned from what we knew in the black plastic blue label pints of a year ago. It's much lower in ZDDP than before. Look at Comp Cams or Edelbrock for some of their break-in lubes.

You might consider running something like Pennzoil Long Life 10W-30 - its a fleet/diesel rated oil with a much higher ZDDP rating than stock lube oils. Shell ROTELLA and other marine/fleet oils carry similar additive packages.

Krashed989
04-26-09, 02:21 AM
Sorry about not really taking pictures of the reassembly. I did the initial startup today and I have a question; How long does it usually take for the heads to build up enough oil pressure to quiet down the valves? I shut off the engine after about 5-10 minutes because I was starting to get worried..

Submariner409
04-26-09, 10:03 AM
Oil should reach the head and cams almost instantly. I think there's a caution in the GM manual about the oil distribution plate and lining up passages......Jake or AJ or ewill3rd will know what I'm talking about......Tateos & jeffrsmith, too.

jeffrsmith asked about which oils I use. The car calls for 5W-30, the truck calls for 5W-20, and I use Pennzoil Platinum synthetic and WIX filters in both (both engines use roller cam followers). The car uses a quart in 3,500 - 4,000 miles and the truck uses maybe a half quart in 6,000. I'm not hard on a car, but don't drive like grandma, either. Had the car up to 125 yesterday.

BUT, for someone with a vehicle that has flat tappet lifters or followers, I would be inclined to use one of the truck or fleet dino oils in the recommended viscosity range for your engine: those oils carry a significantly higher ZDDP load than the starburst symbol SL and SM oils. Pennzoil makes a perfectly satisfactory 10W-30 Long Life truck oil.

Krashed989
04-26-09, 01:43 PM
Where is the oil distribution plate? I'm pretty sure I would remember removing something like that. I don't think I touched it. I left the oil pump in tact and untouched as I did the job.

mtflight
04-26-09, 02:09 PM
for someone with a vehicle that has flat tappet lifters or followers, I would be inclined to use one of the truck or fleet dino oils in the recommended viscosity range for your engine: those oils carry a significantly higher ZDDP load than the starburst symbol SL and SM oils.

woah a complete 180 from oh a year or two ago.

Is there not an "oil priming" procedure involving overfilling the engine with oil?

Krashed989
04-27-09, 03:10 AM
The lifter noise went away after a few startups, to my relief. The engine runs beautifully now that it's had some time to clean itself out. I'm happy. I just have to put all the dirt shields and brakes back together and the car will be as good as new. :)

tateos
04-27-09, 02:41 PM
Yeah - I ad the same valvetrain noise for the first 5-10 minutes - then it went away and is nice and quiet