: Get your warranty work done now! GM is done.



BacDoc
12-12-08, 12:43 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081212/...congress_autos


A $14 billion emergency bailout for U.S. automakers collapsed in the Senate Thursday night after the United Auto Workers refused to accede to Republican demands for swift wage cuts.

Thanks UAW!

CadzillaTN
12-12-08, 12:59 AM
Gettlefinger Gotcha!!!

CO_GTS
12-12-08, 01:16 AM
If you have read the details of the $14B package crafted by the House committee you will see it lacks any required concessions by the UAW. I believe this is due to the power that the UAW has on the members of Congress. Their lobby is just too strong; the politicians have been bought and paid for.

But there appears to be some sanity left in the Senate. Evidently enough of its members knew that the bailout (as it was written) was simply “kicking the can down the road” with no meaningful changes that would reverse the losses being experienced by the big three. It would do nothing more than prop up the domestic auto companies until they needed to return for more of our money to kick the can again.

GM is an old company that is dragging a huge ball and chain with its massive pensions, high salaries, and obese management. They need to break free form this weight and continue on the path of engineering some of the highest performance cars in the world that are an amazing value for the money.

Allowing a GM to go into Chapter 11 and reorganize seems to be the only way to break these chains, I say let them do it.

Sure there are negatives to bankruptcy; most notably public perception. Many will say “who wants to buy a car from a company that is going under? What happens to my warranty if they do? That’s exactly why under Chapter 11 they will honor warranties; to reassure old and new customers alike that they will be there for them. Hell, I would not be surprised to see even better warranties being offered.

Once GM is free of the pensions, closes down Buick and GMC, and invests that savings in new R&D we will see a far better company emerge. Out of the ashes of “creative destruction” will come a company that may in fact start to recapture market share.

Doctornick
12-12-08, 02:03 AM
^ too true.
I still feel bad for those workers that have been with GM for 20-30 years and are now seeing their retirement plan go down the drain.

HeavyH20
12-12-08, 02:39 AM
I think the brands considered for shut down were Pontiac, Saturn, Hummer and Saab (sell). All of those are losing entities. I agree GM needs a really big reset. The UAW average hourly load rate of $68 per hour, after concessions is still 140% more than what it costs Toyota to operate in the states ($48). The benefits package is simply too rich and impossible to continue. The plan was always to move the trust funds to UAW to manage so that the retirement benefits were no longer GM's to worry about. They just need to speed up that process a little. But, I do agree that bankruptcy is the best option since, even with a bailout, the cost of downsizing alone will cost more than they can borrow. Go bankrupt, reset the debt, and re-emerge. There will be short term pain but in the long run, the leaner, better GM will be a more competitive brand. Bottom line, Cadillac will live on.

dirt_cheap_fleetwood
12-12-08, 10:23 AM
I'm fine. They quit making parts for my car a long time ago and the warranty has been up for even longer. :)

The Tony Show
12-12-08, 11:38 AM
Worst case scenario:

GM goes bankrupt and doesn't re-emerge on the other side, forced to close it's doors. If this happens, some billionaire or group of billionaires will buy the parts they want (Cadillac/Chevy and the associated factories), and business will continue as usual.

Maybe I'm an optimist, but I don't see Chevy or Cadillac going anywhere. GM as we know it might, but not the brands.

Ranger
12-12-08, 12:05 PM
I hope you are right Tony. I'd hate to think of the American automobile going the way of the American television. I can live with watching a Sony. I can't live with the idea of driving a Honda.

CIWS
12-12-08, 12:12 PM
I hope you are right Tony. I'd hate to think of the American automobile going the way of the American television. I can live with watching a Sony. I can't live with the idea of driving a Honda.

It's not driving a Honda that bothers me, it's the idea of a lot less competition in the American car market and the heads of the remaining one's headquarters are overseas (besides the lost jobs). You can bet if GM. Chrysler, and Ford go away or become too small the price for that "Honda" will go up here.

CO_GTS
12-12-08, 12:42 PM
Can someone explain to me how the US Congress can vote to not bail out the car companies and the Federal Reserve can ignore that and proceed with giving them billions? Who is running this country, the elected goverment or the Federal Reserve?

c5 rv
12-12-08, 01:22 PM
Can someone explain to me how the US Congress can vote to not bail out the car companies and the Federal Reserve can ignore that and proceed with giving them billions? Who is running this country, the elected goverment or the Federal Reserve?

The Congress wanted the Executive branch to provide loans to the automakers under the previously passed TARP. The Executive branch declined, saying the TARP is for the financial services industry. Now that Congress can't pass auto industry loan legislation, they are relieved that the Executive branch is reconsidering the use of the TARP.

I think President Bush should call all three auto company CEOs and say "Psst, Congress has their collective heads up their butts. You guys have always been here for us and it's time we repaid the favor. Here's $10B for each company with no strings attached - no car czar, no green agenda, no enforced pay rates for UAW members and top management. Go blow the transplants out of the water. BTW, here's a check for a new King Ranch F250 powerstroke for the ranch."

CIWS
12-12-08, 02:27 PM
Can someone explain to me how the US Congress can vote to not bail out the car companies and the Federal Reserve can ignore that and proceed with giving them billions? Who is running this country, the elected goverment or the Federal Reserve?

That's easy. Congress had the opportunity to vote down giving the cash and it's control the Exec. But they voted to pass it. Now it's their cash to spend.

Lord Cadillac
12-12-08, 02:43 PM
Worst case scenario:

GM goes bankrupt and doesn't re-emerge on the other side, forced to close it's doors. If this happens, some billionaire or group of billionaires will buy the parts they want (Cadillac/Chevy and the associated factories), and business will continue as usual.

Maybe I'm an optimist, but I don't see Chevy or Cadillac going anywhere. GM as we know it might, but not the brands.
This is exactly why I'm FOR Chapter 11. I want as few UAW strings attached to GM as possible. As you can obviously see, GM can build excellent vehicles - however, they can't earn revenue selling them. They need MONEY to continue building the CTS, Malibu, Enclave and the rest of what I like to think of as "the new GM" vehicles. These new products are great but they're not going to last if there's nothing to be made on them.

Also, anyone who thinks Buick should go and Pontiac should stay doesn't realize what's really going on in the industry...

Lord Cadillac
12-12-08, 02:51 PM
GM Rejects (bankruptcy):

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081211/ANA02/812112866/1197

urbanski
12-12-08, 03:00 PM
of course they did, they have TARP coming

Submariner409
12-12-08, 03:07 PM
The best thing for the Big 3 is Chapter 11. It will force an immediate turnaround of the way they do business, as well as force a greatly re-negotiated labor contract. GM isn't going anywhere. The UAW is merely trying to save its own skin by crying "wolf". The car state elected crooks are in the bailout picture up to their ears.........they want the easiest, fastest way out for the Big 3, the unions, and the suppliers lest their heads roll at the next election. NONE of our elected officials are in this for the common good: they're in this to save their own asses and could care less about you and me.

CadzillaTN
12-12-08, 08:27 PM
UAW=Blood sucking leeches. "bankruptcy is not an option"...who the hell do they think they are? they are just leeches, not employees, not stakeholders, not investors. leeches. They want to blame the republicans...ok, no problem *******s. Someone has to think clearly in this freeloading frenzy. Unions serve no purpose, as our man Corker has explained multiple times. I hate to see anyone lose their jobs, especially making american cars. Hopefully they go bankrupt before O gets in office. You can forget it then folks. Jan 21 is not that far away... Some economists are saying they truly need 150B or something like that to stay alive.

perhaps one of the banks we loaned 700B of no strings money to can loan these turkeys 14B of it?...........nah, they'll keep it.

vegasVowner
12-12-08, 10:23 PM
Of the big 3, just GM, I repeat, just GM directly employs 240,000. They indirectly employ 2,000,000 (Delphi,etc.). Bankruptcy would send a total shockwave to the economy felt for years. Companies like XM, whose stocks are already in the toilet, would have to follow suit and go belly up too.
Earlier in the thread, somebody mentioned how Detroit was there for us during times of war, why cant we return the favor? I agree, I think sometimes thats forgotten. In the infancies of honda, toyota, nissan what advantage did they have over Detroit? I'll tell you, nationalized health care. Those funds the foreign autos didnt have to fork over, are burned up here. That money couldve been used to make Detroit more competitive through better R & D. Instead, they lag behind now but are closing the gap. You could say Detroit is closing the gap, but you could also say that foreign autos, that now produce on our soil, are feeling the same pinch that Detroit has the whole time. Cheap labor for the foreign autos laid the foundation down for the stigma of bad quality in domestic autos.
The US Government is not innocent in this either. During the mid-70's to mid-80's they imposed bigger tariffs and tighter fuel economies on imported autos. They said they wanted to preserve the American auto (ala big muscle V-8s) and thus let Detroit get away with crappy engineering for fuel economy (see smog pump). Ironically, bad governent policy led to a better, more desirable foreign auto.
Bankruptcy is simply not an option here. Too many jobs at risk. Restructuring of this magnatude isnt possible like it was with the airline bankruptcies. There is no cleaning house here, just too big and far reaching into the economy. Kiss you and I's 401k goodbye if we allow GM to fall. Lehman bros. failure according to many sources is directly responsible to 2000 pt. drop in the market. Same sources and more say if GM fails, Dow could easily go below 4000 or worse. We let the snakes in charge of the banks have over $800 bil. and climbing. We should give GM what they ask for x2. They cant sell their product because those same snakes wont free up the credit for financing of their cars. Think about what you're saying before you say let the biggest company in the world go belly up.

hueterm
12-12-08, 11:12 PM
I paid out the ASS for a Major Guard last year for EXT...I'm not worried.

Even if they file, they're not going to drop their warranties -- warranties will be the ONLY thing that lets them survive bankruptcy.

They're not going to do that, and they're not going to go under.

dkozloski
12-13-08, 12:02 AM
I paid out the ASS for a Major Guard last year for EXT...I'm not worried.

Even if they file, they're not going to drop their warranties -- warranties will be the ONLY thing that lets them survive bankruptcy.

They're not going to do that, and they're not going to go under.
If they're forced into bankruptcy they don't have any say at all in what happens after that. It's all up to the judge. All a warranty would do is put you in a hunded mile long line of creditors.

hueterm
12-13-08, 12:33 AM
Defaulting on warranties will be the last nail in the coffin. Sure the judge could order it -- but he might as well liquidate them. Customers will be wary at best anyway.

If anything, the companies will extend their warranties (5/60 bumper to bumper, etc.) to try and retain customers.

LS1Mike
12-13-08, 11:32 AM
I see the Senators who have Import car companies in their states all voted no. I wonder how much "Lobbying" was going on there.

Once again the media and most folks have forgotten to mention the fact if any of these guys go under it is going to be hard to get parts
for a lot of military equipment. It puts our defense system in bad spot. That is big picture stuff, not just cars.

Ranger
12-13-08, 02:22 PM
I see the Senators who have Import car companies in their states all voted no. I wonder how much "Lobbying" was going on there.

I think it is safe to say A LOT. I'm sure the imports would love to see the big three go Chapter 7. I for one, would not. I WILL NOT drive a Honda.

dkozloski
12-13-08, 03:25 PM
I see the Senators who have Import car companies in their states all voted no. I wonder how much "Lobbying" was going on there.

Once again the media and most folks have forgotten to mention the fact if any of these guys go under it is going to be hard to get parts
for a lot of military equipment. It puts our defense system in bad spot. That is big picture stuff, not just cars.
On all government equipment, the design of all parts belongs to Uncle Sam and they can go anywhere they want to have parts made. There'll be plenty of shops standing in line ready to make parts for anything the government needs.

GailyBedight
12-13-08, 03:36 PM
You keep hearing about all the people that will be out of work if the car companies "fail". Chapter 11 is not failing, but reorganization. Pumping money into GM is not going to make them more competitive. There needs to be new attitudes from all parties involved. UAW is the worst. A family owned business in Chicago, Republic Windows and Doors, just shut down. The union employees staged a sit in to get Bank of American to loan more money. The bank did, the employees are getting what they asked for, severence pay, but guess what??? They are all out of a job. Now that's a union doing good works for its members and the employers.

As for all the people that will be out of work - wasn't the Town Car the last car that had its wiring harness made in this country. In the mid 90s I worked on a job in Mexico where they made engine blocks for Chrysler. How much of a car today is actually manufactured in the US?

LS1Mike
12-13-08, 04:44 PM
On all government equipment, the design of all parts belongs to Uncle Sam and they can go anywhere they want to have parts made. There'll be plenty of shops standing in line ready to make parts for anything the government needs.

Except they cannot get it from Foriegn manufactures. I know for a fact where I work, I cannot buy from any company overseas or foriegn for submarine parts.
Even bearings and fasteners have to come from an American owned in the States company, no ifs, ands or buts about it.
DK do you want to get your military parts from China or Japan? No there are a ton of reasons why.
We don't go out of the country for stuff since the Toshiba incident.
I will let you find out about that one for yourself. Since you think we are just going to buy the stuff from whoever for our sensitive military equipment.

dkozloski
12-13-08, 05:33 PM
Except they cannot get it from Foriegn manufactures. I know for a fact where I work, I cannot buy from any company overseas or foriegn for submarine parts.
Even bearings and fasteners have to come from an American owned in the States company, no ifs, ands or buts about it.
DK do you want to get your military parts from China or Japan? No there are a ton of reasons why.
We don't go out of the country for stuff since the Toshiba incident.
I will let you find out about that one for yourself. Since you think we are just going to buy the stuff from whoever for our sensitive military equipment.
The drawings and prints for all the parts are the property of the U. S. government and they can go to anybody they like in the U.S. to have them made for them with no regard for patents and processes. There are plenty of shops in the U.S. looking for work that would be happy to oblige. About 80% of the parts in American cars are being subbed out already to non-union small businesses as a means of getting around the UAW. Just go to the sub to get what you need.

LS1Mike
12-13-08, 06:32 PM
The drawings and prints for all the parts are the property of the U. S. government and they can go to anybody they like in the U.S. to have them made for them with no regard for patents and processes. There are plenty of shops in the U.S. looking for work that would be happy to oblige. About 80% of the parts in American cars are being subbed out already to non-union small businesses as a means of getting around the UAW. Just go to the sub to get what you need.

That is point D. I talk to these guys DAILY, they keep telling me to find someone new soon, a lot of them will tank if any of them go under. I am the guy who sends the drawings and starts the contract process. If we loose the big three I won't be able to get Circuit cards, bolts, even raw stock. In addition to that what you say is not all true. Certain items are we call "Sole Source" their are built by one company and are proprietary. The govt doesn't own those drawings or the patent but we use the equimpment and need the parts.
The government does not own all it.

Jesda
12-13-08, 07:02 PM
You will "lose" your supplier for a short period. Someone out there will want to make money and offer you the same product/service. Thats the great thing about supply and demand in a free market.

You want X. Someone will provide X for a price.

Likewise, losing the Big 3 doesn't mean we'll suddenly have no cars. Other firms will build more or new firms will emerge. This is life. Businesses come and go.

LS1Mike
12-13-08, 07:34 PM
Jesda,
I will assume you don't work with or for the Government. I am not really sure what you do except wreck cars... :D J/K
Seriously.
I am not sure what a short period is to you.

It isn't as simple as "someone" else will pick up the slack when we are talking about limited run items for Planes, tanks, ships and Submarines.
I have dedicated suppliers now and some parts like just Subsafe, Level I fasteners can take up to 6 months to get now.

This same company makes fasteners for the big 3, their business makes also make a bunch of my fastseners they are certified and can provid the proper paper to show where the metal was mined, well basically the can track that bolt from cradle to grave and are one of the few companies who can make that part. I am just a very small part of this guys buisness. Lots of smaller companies won't or can't make the parts because they are not certified to make those type of parts and takes a few years to get certified, it is not cost effective for them to tool up to make the parts and cost lost of money they have to shell out to become certified. The price of the parts will double or triple. Either way you look at it you are paying for it.

These folks are familiar with government contracts and already have an infrastructer in place to support the Military's needs.

Of course someone wants to make money. You are right, but it isn't as easy as you make it sound. I deal with it everyday. Just about everyplace I get parts has something to do with making something for the auto industry, that is their bread and butter. If I lost suppliers for more than a 4 to 5 month period, I am not sure what would happen.

dkozloski
12-13-08, 09:21 PM
It'd be the same way it always has been. The big cheese comes out and says to get this goddam thing going, right now. You go find a bolt that'll screw in the hole and you go. The Navy has always been the same when push comes to shove. Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without. Bar's Stop Leak was good enough for the Nautilus. NAPA makes a good enough bolt for the girls we go with. The sub service is no different than anybody else. When lives are on the line you do what you have to do. It's not easy to ask the men to put their necks on the line for a goddam bolt but they'll do it anyway even if the feather merchants won't.

LS1Mike
12-13-08, 09:42 PM
It'd be the same way it always has been. The big cheese comes out and says to get this goddam thing going, right now. You go find a bolt that'll screw in the hole and you go. The Navy has always been the same when push comes to shove. Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without. Bar's Stop Leak was good enough for the Nautilus. NAPA makes a good enough bolt for the girls we go with. The sub service is no different than anybody else. When lives are on the line you do what you have to do. It's not easy to ask the men to put their necks on the line for a goddam bolt but they'll do it anyway even if the feather merchants won't.


You have been away a long long time haven't you?:D
Not even the same anymore. Every hear of the USS Thresher. Ever hear of the QA program?
D, it doesn't work like that anymore no matter what the circumstances when sending a ship to sea, Sorry man now you are right about 40-50 years ago, but you don't know how it works right now. Getting underway recertified ensures recovery during an emergency. Which is the best insurance policy you can have for a 2 billion dollar submarine or surface ship.

I digress obviously you know more about how the Navy works in 2008 then I do.

dkozloski
12-13-08, 10:12 PM
The first name I noticed on the casualty list of the Thresher was Burton Shotwell who was going to a Navy missile school at the same time I was but he flunked out. Current practice at the time was for a sub school grad who flunked out of Polaris school to be sent to the tin can navy but he was sent to an attack boat instead. He really razzed the guys that flunked out at the same time he did because they got shit canned to tin cans out of Norfolk and he got to stay in subs. He was particularly tough on a guy by the name of Tom Ormsby who got sent to a remote radar site in Iceland which was the worst duty imaginable. Guess who got the last razz on that.
I know what you're saying about QA and all the rest but I also know that if the day comes when the shooting has started and the Russians or somebody else are coming and a sub is sitting at the pier for want of a properly blessed bolt that it's going to go anyway; somehow. That's the point I was making.