: UAW president speaks out on limiting executive pay



Lord Cadillac
12-01-08, 05:38 PM
The UAW was founded for several reasons, but one of its biggest pillars is getting the best pay for its members. However, the UAW’s current president, Ron Gettelfinger, doesn’t necessarily believe that every employee of the automaker should be able to receive the highest salary possible, stating that executives should have a limit on pay. Despite Gettelfinger’s willingness to limit executive pay, the union boss said the UAW will not be giving anymore concessions to ensure the automakers’ survival. Moreover, Gettelfinger is steadfast in his stance that the UAW had nothing to do with the Big Three’s current financial situation.

Read more (http://www.leftlanenews.com/uaw-president-speaks-out-on-limiting-executive-pay.html)

dkozloski
12-01-08, 06:20 PM
If the UAW shits in their own nest this time it's for keeps. If everybody in the union isn't willing to settle for 50% of what they're getting now they're going to get absolutely nothing. If they had any brains at all they'd be jungled up with the automakers in a hotel room trying to figure out how the hell to get the cash flow of the automakers positive. They'd do well to be willing to work for nothing for a couple of months and burn their strike fund to rescue the whole deal. If the automakers and the union could see that they'd both benefit from some belt tightening they could drive the Asians to bankruptcy. Both the makers and the workers deserve to slide into the abyss.

RightTurn
12-01-08, 06:30 PM
I'd like to know why everyone is so hell-bent on American workers making less? Do you all really want the middle class in this country to vaporize?

Submariner409
12-01-08, 07:01 PM
Vaporize the middle class??? As Pogo Possum once opined "We has met the enemy and they is us."

Our inflated balloon is collapsing, and everyone wants an "It's not MY fault" bailout. The American Dream never asked or guaranteed anyone a handout, bailout or free ride. You work your ass off and put a roof over your head and a chicken in the pot. The Cadillac, ATV, and ski boat are purely gravy.

There will always be the Mellons, Morgans and Vanderbilts. There will always be the American Worker. And never the twain shall meet. To pay someone the equivalent of $80 an hour for screwing bolts into fenders is way out of line.

dkozloski
12-01-08, 07:25 PM
I'd like to know why everyone is so hell-bent on American workers making less? Do you all really want the middle class in this country to vaporize?
In any other society the middle class was not hourly wage earners. It was the merchants. The U.S. broke that mold with mass production for foreign markets. The rest of the world has caught up with us. We need to accept reality and adapt or get plowed under by those that do.

It's much like the newspaper business. For a couple of hundred years the newspaper business operated with a profit margin about four times higher than any other business. Now they have severe competition from other media and they are folding left and right. They need to adapt or get plowed under.

The Tony Show
12-01-08, 08:04 PM
A percentage of the middle class is making the equivalent of $40 per hour at the Honda and Toyota factories here in America.

dkozloski
12-01-08, 08:15 PM
A percentage of the middle class is making the equivalent of $40 per hour at the Honda and Toyota factories here in America.
That's an average wage/benefits package for a skilled craftsman.

Lord Cadillac
12-01-08, 09:30 PM
A percentage of the middle class is making the equivalent of $40 per hour at the Honda and Toyota factories here in America.
That's pretty good money.

LS1Mike
12-01-08, 09:42 PM
I think the 40 bucks and hours in includes benefits, maybe that is understood. I thought the average actual hourly wage was 15 to 20 dollars and hour.

Ranger
12-01-08, 10:01 PM
I am quite sure that includes benefits.

Florian
12-01-08, 10:08 PM
RT got awful quiet.....


F

GailyBedight
12-01-08, 10:13 PM
When the guy cutting the grass and the guy cleaning toilets makes scale, ($38/hr), things need to change. On one of my jobs I had to have my people certified to operate a forklift, (4 hrs each). According to the attached a Delphi union fork lift operator made more than $100,000/year. That's pretty good money for someone with a 4 hour education.

http://malaysia.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070924073107AAuGk8O

RightTurn
12-01-08, 10:17 PM
RT got awful quiet.....


F

I was cooking dinner. :D For wages AND benefits, $80/hr is not outrageous. Look at the average cost of a house in the US, people. Should the American Dream be beyond everyone's grasp?? Shoot yourselves in the foot by claiming that wages are too high.

RightTurn
12-01-08, 10:21 PM
And from this article, http://www.portfolio.com/views/blogs/market-movers/2008/11/18/the-return-of-the-70-per-hour-meme?tid=true ...

The average GM assembly-line worker makes about $28 per hour in wages, and I can assure you that GM is not paying $42 an hour in health insurance and pension plan contributions. Rather, the $70 per hour figure (or $73 an hour, or whatever) is a ridiculous number obtained by adding up GM's total labor, health, and pension costs, and then dividing by the total number of hours worked. In other words, it includes all the healthcare and retirement costs of retired workers.

RightTurn
12-01-08, 10:24 PM
Oh, and getting back on-topic, I agree that executive pay should have a cap, and not just in the auto industry.

Ranger
12-01-08, 10:26 PM
One thing that you have to keep in mind is that in business, you don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate. No one ever thought that they make too much money, yet everyone who makes less than them does. Now I'm not saying that is right, but then who can say what is too much. I'll never tell my employer, no thanks, I don't need a raise, I make enough, and I doubt anyone else here would either. Maybe a better way to put it is, would anyone here turn down a job offer driving a fork lift for 100K per year? You also have to remember that those contracts where negotiated in much better times. When a company is making money hand over fist, what employee is not going to say, hey wait a minute, I want some of that too. The problem is that every contract negotiation, the contract is expected to get sweetened, and usually does. Over the decades it gets a little over the edge and the only thing that will bring it back in line is usually chapter 11, or in this case maybe the threat of it through congress, but rest assured, things will change. The only question is how.

dkozloski
12-01-08, 10:48 PM
I was cooking dinner. :D For wages AND benefits, $80/hr is not outrageous. Look at the average cost of a house in the US, people. Should the American Dream be beyond everyone's grasp?? Shoot yourselves in the foot by claiming that wages are too high.
$80/hr is outrageous if the product being manufactured won't throw off enough profit to pay for all this foolishness. The business in question has to be viable. If the worker doesn't like the wage that the business can support he can vote with his feet. I've done it a couple of times. Nothing about this country guarantees success, it does offer a chance for success if you have the education and the talent.

RightTurn
12-01-08, 10:52 PM
Well, as Ranger so astutely noted...the existing contracts were negotiated in better days. And for the last frackin' time, THEY DON'T MAKE $80 AN HOUR. :gah:

Jesda
12-02-08, 12:04 AM
Remember the strikes in 1998? Oops.

The Tony Show
12-02-08, 09:22 AM
The UAW's current labor agreement was not negotiated- it was basically signed by the Big 3 at the barrel of a gun every time the UAW shuts them down by striking. Forcing pay increases by shutting a company down is blackmail, not negotiating. I still contend that during the last strike GM should have told Gettlefinger to shove it up his ass, then spent a few million on want ads in USA Today for people who want to work for a good wage and benefits. Tell everyone in the UAW that they have the option of staying at $xxx pay, and if they don't want to then they're free to leave.

If the wages that the workers at US plants for Honda and Toyota are so horribly unfair, why aren't we seeing those workers striking and demanding more pay? Because they aren't. The only people at the UAW who would struggle to pay their mortgage if their wages came back down to earth are those living high on the hog. Far be it from me to intentionally sound elitist, but a guy screwing a bolt into a fender shouldn't be living in a huge house with three cars, a boat and jet skis.

Sorry if that's an ugly truth, but one thing the recent downturn has taught me is that a lot of us (myself included) owe way too much money on things we don't need to live well.

MauiV
12-02-08, 10:00 AM
I have seen WAY to many UAW workers (and others) living on their overtime. They buy big houses (with ARMs and balloon mortgages) boats, race cars, horses, etc etc and work in an industry where they KNOW they are going to be furlowed sometime.

I have no sympathy for the stupid or those that overextend themselves. The "contracts" that pay an employee to sit in the breakroom while the production line isnt running for weeks on end is nothing more than theft.

77CDV
12-02-08, 11:41 AM
To be fair, Gettelfinger has a point about limiting executive pay. Under the current circumstances, the top executives in the Detroit Three should take drastic pay cuts, forego bonuses and stock options, and all the other little perks of position. They're already decimating their white collar workforce, they should share the pain. BUT, the majority here has the right of the balance of the arguement. The union is going to have to accept the fact that the rich contracts of the past are in the past and cannot continue. Wages, benefits, pensions, everything will have to be cut or eliminated. Without serious sacrifice, realistic planning, and cooperation on both sides, the union will cease to exist because there won't be anyone left to employ their members.

Ranger
12-02-08, 05:49 PM
Forcing pay increases by shutting a company down is blackmail, not negotiating.
It is called "self help" when they cannot reach an agreement.


I still contend that during the last strike GM should have told Gettlefinger to shove it up his ass

I agree.


then spent a few million on want ads in USA Today for people who want to work for a good wage and benefits.

You don't understand labor law. It's not that easy. It can be done, but only after lots of hoops are jumped through. The union has a right to strike and the company has a right to replace them at some point, but there are such things as "bargaining in good faith", arbitration. If all the steps are not taken and the company simply says
take it or leave it and tries to hire replacements, that is called union busting and is illegal. You also have to remember that what you are seeing today is the exact opposite of what was going on before the unions and the reason for unions. This is all history and evolution. It didn't start yesterday. It'd been decades in the making.
.

The Tony Show
12-02-08, 07:51 PM
I know, I know......I'm dreaming here, okay? :D

Barry Goldwalter has some amazingly insightful discussions on Unions in his book Conscience of a Conservative. The pendulum has swung so far in the opposite direction that the Corporations now need protection from the Unions, instead of the other way around. It doesn't help that most of the Washington elite are bought and paid for by the Unions. :shifty

Ranger
12-02-08, 09:03 PM
I'm not sure I would agree with that Tony. Might have been true when he wrote it, but generally speaking, unions are not in a strong bargaining position lately. Especially when they are in, or facing Chapter 11.

I would agree with the Washington elite, however.

MauiV
12-02-08, 09:09 PM
Unions give no more money than Big Business itself. Politicians will take money from whoever is handing it over.

Ranger
12-02-08, 09:12 PM
As any good whore would.

ewill3rd
12-03-08, 06:52 AM
Everybody is worried about the factory workers, but nobody is worried about us guys that actually have to understand how this crap works, be able to take it apart, fix it, and put it back together.
No one has a problem paying fifty, sixty, or eighty thousand dollars for some luxury car full of bells and whistles but when it comes to paying the guys who study their rears off for a decade or two a fraction of what some goon on the assembly line who has a one way ratchet to slap parts on cars as they roll by... oh we must pay him so much in wages and benefits. I don't have a "pension" or any guarantees but no one is crying out about how us techs get taken advantage of. No one is offering to pay more in labor so my counterparts in this business can get a piece of the American dream.
No one hesitates to go on the internet and blast us for trying to understand 35 interconnected computer systems and engines with 4 camshafts and an electric actuator on every one, computer controlled transmissions, all the gizmos that today's consumer demands, etc...
Nope, we are all just crooks and idiots lining up to take your money, nevermind that GM doesn't even tell us how the stuff works, or that they only support systems we have in place are a joke.
Yeah, we gotta pay those UAW guys more money... they need more.
They should work some job for 30 years that someone with a 4th grade education can do and we should pay them to sit on their butts and do nothing for 20 more years after that, but screw the guy that actually knows something, who cares about him, he's a crook anyway.

I'd rather pay a whore than a UAW worker, at least if I pay the whore I am getting what I paid for.

ewill3rd
12-03-08, 08:22 AM
Allow me to follow up my rant with a comment please.
I understand that I get respect from my customers and from most of you guys and gals on here.
I appreciate that, I really do. I don't mean to lump myself in with the crooks, but the general public does and that is what chaps my behind.
The fact that some 6th grade dropout can make more money than me with 1/4 the knowledge and get paid to sit on his butt while I work my behind off to fix his F*$K ups knowing that the only money I'll get when I retire is whatever I manage to save.... well it just lights my pilot.

RightTurn
12-03-08, 08:09 PM
From MSNBC today:

The UAW, scrambling to preserve jobs and benefits, agreed at an emergency meeting in Detroit to delay the companies’ payments to a multibillion-dollar, union-run health care trust and scale back a jobs bank in which laid-off workers are paid most of their wage. The concessions could help soothe some lawmakers who had criticized the union’s benefits as too rich when compared with those of workers at foreign-brand auto plants in the U.S..

“It should be helpful. It’s additional evidence that the UAW’s willing to participate in the painful restructuring,” said Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich., a top supporter of the industry.

ewill3rd
12-03-08, 09:09 PM
They'd better "participate", or they'll be unemployed and out of suckers to leech off of to bankroll their own overpaid lifestyles (union leaders that is).
They can't hold a company hostage for more money like they have done over the years if there is no company and a company that doesn't exist can't pay pensions and health benefits either. Maybe someone got a calculator out.

RightTurn
12-03-08, 11:30 PM
I don't get how a line worker making ~$28 an hour plus benefits is making everyone so berserk. SHEESH. That's barely a living wage in many areas of the country. I would hate to see the middle class in America LOSING MORE GROUND by having salaries and BENEFITS cut. Ya, it will be really great when all those auto workers lose their jobs and go on the dole. :rolleyes: The rest of us will shoulder the "bail out" one way or another.

ewill3rd
12-04-08, 06:17 AM
It grinds my gears because I make less than $28 an hour with NO benefits (partially because I choose none) and I actually have a skill!!

RightTurn
12-04-08, 08:35 AM
There's not a day that goes by that I don't look at some overpaid coworker and wonder how the heck THAT happened. Then I see them going to lunch with the boss and it becomes painfully clear that life is indeed NOT fair, and that until I assume the suck-ass position I will have to rely on my qualifications to succeed. :lol:

The Tony Show
12-04-08, 08:54 AM
I don't get how a line worker making ~$28 an hour plus benefits is making everyone so berserk. SHEESH. That's barely a living wage in many areas of the country. I would hate to see the middle class in America LOSING MORE GROUND by having salaries and BENEFITS cut. Ya, it will be really great when all those auto workers lose their jobs and go on the dole. :rolleyes: The rest of us will shoulder the "bail out" one way or another.

If lowering the pay of Auto workers below the current UAW levels would be so horrible, where are the stories about Honda and Toyota factory workers here in America losing their houses or striking for increased benefits?

I don't know where you found the $28 per hour figure, but I'll assume it's accurate and run with that: $28 per hour x 40 hours per week = $58,240 per year. If both spouses work for the Union (which is common), that's $116,480 per year. This assumes no paid overtime or paid days off, which are both rampant in Unions, but we'll leave them out for simplicity's sake.

Health care for the average family in America costs $500 per month, which = $6,000 per year. Factor in that most UAW workers pay either nothing or next to nothing for Health care, and they're making the equivalent of $122,500 per year.

No diagnosing, no computer work, no skill set, no dealing with the public, and no fear of losing your job (since you still get paid). Stand here and install this part over and over again. For $122,000 per year (a very conservative estimate).

RightTurn
12-04-08, 09:06 AM
I believe that Honda and Toyota purposely selected their plant locations (usually high poverty areas of the deep south) so that the available workforce would see their salary offerings as a huge incentive because they were accustomed to extreme poverty. It would also not surprise me to find that those plants were built with the condition that there will be NO labor unions and no collective bargaining.

I know a great deal about unions because I have been in a union job...and in fact, a union officer at one point. Many perceptions of organized labor are spot-on, but equally as many are totally off base and ridiculous. Most crafts (machinists, electricians, iron workers, etc.) who have to be educated and certified in their craft are represented...so by no means are all union members unskilled labor. And I reiterate...$28/hr is not an outrageous hourly rate when you consider shift work, some dangerous conditions, etc.

Ranger
12-04-08, 10:13 AM
Stand here and install this part over and over again. For $122,000 per year (a very conservative estimate).Wait a minute. You are assuming TWO people working for the same company. In all fairness, this figure should be 1/2 ($61,000).

MauiV
12-04-08, 10:45 AM
I believe that Honda and Toyota purposely selected their plant locations (usually high poverty areas of the deep south) so that the available workforce would see their salary offerings as a huge incentive because they were accustomed to extreme poverty.

Toyotas Camry/Avalon plant is Georgetown Ky, minutes away from Lexington. Lexington is constantly in the top 10 educated cities in the United States and there is PLENTY of money there whether from horse money, coal money, tech money or just good old fashioned family money. There are also 3 UAW plants in the state, 2 in Louisville and 1 in Bowling Green, none of which are "poverty striken" but the Toyota plant is in a more affluent area.

The UAW makes it impossible to get rid of the shitty, lazy guys on the plant floor and there are plenty of them that just coast by on their job security. Poor management also has led to most of this disaster. Whatever genius signed these contracts with the UAW is as much to blame as the UAW.

As an example...Ford management calls 1st and 2nd shifts in for overtime on Friday to produce more Exploreres. Well Saturday morning after 2 hours work they run out of chassis so no more vehicles can be built. The chassis plant is 150 miles away and no more will be arriving till Monday. So now Ford has just payed 2 entire shifts time and a half to do 2 hours work. Monday morning when 1st shift comes in there are still no chassis and most likely wont be any till mid day since the chassis plant itself just went back to work that morning and is still 150 miles away.

The auto industry is just like the pilot industry. Furloughs happen and you know that going in. You pays your dollar you takes your chances. The pensions and health care and WAY out of line with the rest of blue collar America. I know Ford employees without a HS diploma making over $100,000 a year but they, like the rest of us are going to take whatever is offered to them.

There is plenty of blame for both sides of this fence to share in.

The Tony Show
12-04-08, 11:04 AM
Wait a minute. You are assuming TWO people working for the same company. In all fairness, this figure should be 1/2 ($61,000).

Correct- that figure is for a household. $61,000 per person is ludicrous. I used to manage an electronics store in the mall, and was responsible for hiring, training, balancing the books, ordering, managing inventory, merchandising and other things, made $38,000 a year and had my insurance deducted from that on my paycheck.

Median household income in the US is $48,000 per year. That's household, not per person, so my conservative estimate of $122,000 for a couple is 2.54 times the average household income in this country.

Ranger
12-04-08, 05:12 PM
Median household income in the US is $48,000 per year. That's household, not per person, so my conservative estimate of $122,000 for a couple is 2.54 times the average household income in this country.
Should there be a national maximum income or national hourly wage?

RightTurn
12-04-08, 05:18 PM
^^ :yeah: And IIRC, the "median" income, where half make more that that amount and half make less, includes no-income households which has a way of skewing the results. As for the calculation based on two spouses working for the UAW...what percentage of married couples do you suppose that would be??

$61k per person ludicrous? Not so IMO.

RightTurn
12-04-08, 05:23 PM
The UAW makes it impossible to get rid of the shitty, lazy guys on the plant floor and there are plenty of them that just coast by on their job security.

I totally disagree with that statement. The union can do only so much to protect a poor performer; in fact in most cases will not pursue a defense if the company has sufficient basis to terminate.

RightTurn
12-04-08, 05:34 PM
It grinds my gears because I make less than $28 an hour with NO benefits (partially because I choose none) and I actually have a skill!!

You know how much I admire you, Bill. But I gotta tell ya, there are PLENTY of union workers in this country with excellent skills. A very small percentage are unskilled labor and often those are involved in some apprenticeship program to advance their expertise to "journeyman" status.

dkozloski
12-04-08, 05:40 PM
I totally disagree with that statement. The union can do only so much to protect a poor performer; in fact in most cases will not pursue a defense if the company has sufficient basis to terminate.
I could sit here for days telling egregious stories about union workers that couldn't be fired for the most rediculous reasons imaginable. One guy at a place I worked was found by his supervisor and his union business agent sleeping on the job in a bed he'd made in the janitors closet. His business agent successfully argued that nobody had ever told him he couldn't do that so he couldn't be fired for it.
More often than not it's the supervisor that winds up with the letter of reprimand in his file for "picking on" a poor worker.
A local school teacher has been sent home several times for bringing booze into the schoolhouse and being drunk on the job. She's been sent to rehab several times and bailed on it every time but the union still protects her and has pursued the legal process with high powered lawyers that they have on retainer. She's tenured and virtually unfirable.
One school district with over 5000 teachers, over a five year period of time successfully terminated 15 teachers. Some of those they were unable to terminate had been convicted of sex crimes and felony child abuse.
A case that I was involved in as a victim, concerned an employee of the Government Printing Office. I ordered a bunch of books that I had to have by law to operate an aircraft engine overhaul facility. I never got them and complained. After many more complaints than mine and an investigation they located an employee that would get his assignment of orders to send out for the day and he'd throw them in the garbage and go find a place to sleep instead. The U. S. Government was unable to terminate him because they had never told him that his job performance was unacceptable and it was the first time he heard that he couldn't do that.

RightTurn
12-04-08, 05:50 PM
Ya, Koz. You've got a story for every situation and we are all too aware that you can "sit here for days" recounting them. :bigroll: However, your stories do not wash in a corporate environment where working rules for employees are not negotiable. Drunk on the job? You're fired. Steal company property? You're fired. Sexually harass a coworker? You're fired. The union can't (and won't bother) to defend documented proof of misconduct.

MauiV
12-04-08, 05:51 PM
I totally disagree with that statement. The union can do only so much to protect a poor performer; in fact in most cases will not pursue a defense if the company has sufficient basis to terminate.

You apparently dont know many people that work under the UAW. My moms now deceased husband worked at Ford for 35 years. I have cousins that work in the plants. I know EXACTLY what goes on in those plants. The parking lot trashcans are FULL of alcohol bottles and beer cans. Workers were going to a BAR for lunch and partaking in alcoholic beverages then going back to the line. They were esentially banned from 2 bars near the plant by management. A Lortab goes for $10 a tablet and is available pretty damn easy. Oxycontin is $15 and just as easily available. Drug busts happen regularly enough to be worrisome. It takes quite a lot for a UAW employee to be fired and management knows they are fighting a losing battle going after under performers.

RightTurn
12-04-08, 05:54 PM
Well you seem to be confusing poor job performance with working rules violations, but obviously you are the expert so I will defer to your expertise.

:whatever:

RightTurn
12-04-08, 05:58 PM
The U. S. Government was unable to terminate him because they had never told him that his job performance was unacceptable and it was the first time he heard that he couldn't do that.

And exactly what does the US government's inability to terminate have to do with the UAW or any other union?

dkozloski
12-04-08, 05:58 PM
Ya, Koz. You've got a story for every situation and we all all too aware that you can "sit here for days" recounting them. :bigroll: However, your stories do not wash in a corporate environment where working rules for employees are not negotiable. Drunk on the job? You're fired. Steal company property? You're fired. Sexually harass a coworker? You're fired. The union can't (and won't bother) to defend documented proof of misconduct.
Maybe your union won't protect the clowns but there are plenty of them that will.

http://oldsite.reason.com/0610/howtofireanincompetentteacher.pdf

MauiV
12-04-08, 06:00 PM
Im by no means an expert on it, Im just the one between the two of us that has seen it first hand.

RightTurn
12-04-08, 06:01 PM
I am no longer in a union, but I work at a union site. A working safety violation will get your ass escorted to the gate and your badge removed.

RightTurn
12-04-08, 06:04 PM
Maybe your union won't protect the clowns but there are plenty of them that will.

Sorry Koz, but the organized labor grip is greatly diluted. Today's unions are a shadow of their former selves. The one fact that is overlooked by union haters is that they can thank people willing to band together for the good of all for better working conditions, decent wages, benefits, and in some cases a decent retirement. Unions once had a place but they have outlived their usefulness.

MauiV
12-04-08, 06:09 PM
As a Union member working under forced working conditions from a unsigned "contract" that was not bargained in good faith I can say that Unions have not outlived their usefulness. I also took a vow to never strike against my employer, which I fully intend to keep. The new regime should be good for my household and I am excited to get back the working conditions I lost in September of 2006.

Absolute power gone unchecked never leads to anything good for those under the thumb of a tyrant.

dkozloski
12-04-08, 06:10 PM
And exactly what does the US government's inability to terminate have to do with the UAW or any other union?
American Federation of Government Employees, AFL-CIO is the culprit.

RightTurn
12-04-08, 06:17 PM
As a Union member working under forced working conditions from a unsigned "contract" that was not bargained in good faith I can say that Unions have not outlived their usefulness. I also took a vow to never strike against my employer, which I fully intend to keep. The new regime should be good for my household and I am excited to get back the working conditions I lost in September of 2006.

Absolute power gone unchecked never leads to anything good for those under the thumb of a tyrant.

Why take a vow not to strike? Doesn't that remove one major bargaining tool?

dkozloski
12-04-08, 06:27 PM
Harry Bridges, head of the stevedores union negotiated a contract for the dockworkers in San Fransisco that gave them one paid holiday a year, Yom Kippur. You couldn't take the holiday unless you were Jewish and all the dockworkers covered were Puerto Rican.

MauiV
12-04-08, 06:32 PM
Requirement for employment. Gubment job, critical to national security and commerce. Our Union is more of a negotiating arm and has done a very good job. With W and his cronies on their way out the door my life should become better.

And the last time they struck it didnt have the desired effect. 85% of the work force was fired and replaced and the union pretty much fell apart obviously. That union still exists but is not our bargaining unit. A new union was formed in its place.

dkozloski
12-04-08, 07:10 PM
Requirement for employment. Gubment job, critical to national security and commerce. Our Union is more of a negotiating arm and has done a very good job. With W and his cronies on their way out the door my life should become better.

And the last time they struck it didnt have the desired effect. 85% of the work force was fired and replaced and the union pretty much fell apart obviously. That union still exists but is not our bargaining unit. A new union was formed in its place.
Infamous air traffic controllers?

MauiV
12-04-08, 07:29 PM
Patco ftl.

RightTurn
12-04-08, 08:05 PM
Requirement for employment. Gubment job, critical to national security and commerce. Our Union is more of a negotiating arm and has done a very good job. With W and his cronies on their way out the door my life should become better.

And the last time they struck it didnt have the desired effect. 85% of the work force was fired and replaced and the union pretty much fell apart obviously. That union still exists but is not our bargaining unit. A new union was formed in its place.

I applaud you.


And now, back to the :tard: threads. :D

ewill3rd
12-04-08, 08:56 PM
RT, no problem... I respect your opinion although I may disagree with it.
Just wanted to say a few things that were on my mind.
As always, right, wrong, skewed, whatever, that is my opinion of the situation and I am pretty much done with this one.
Like most political type arguments there is no winner, just polarized people who aren't going to change their mind bickering about things they can't change.
I enjoyed my moment but I am pretty much done with this topic.

Yeah, I know how "skilled" some of those UAW guys are btw.... I spend a great deal of time fixing their F-ups.
I just can't get on board with someone who is shown how to operate a machine or plug in a connector and think they are worth more money in wages and benefits that someone with an actual skill set and understanding of all the systems on the car, not just how to install a bolt in the left front fender over and over again.
You should see some of the atrocities I have seen rolling off the assembly line, don't forget we have to look over every vehicle before we put it on the showroom floor.
If those guys were so "skilled" then why does GM pay us to look over their work... we should just be able to wash them and deliver them if they are so good at the assembly plants.

dkozloski
12-04-08, 11:12 PM
Ewill, do you still see out and out sabotage like we used to see years ago? I've found Coke bottles inside of doors, big steel ball bearings welded up inside of frame rails to rattle around, loose parts under hub caps, straight pins through wiring harnesses, and the Lord knows what.

Ranger
12-04-08, 11:19 PM
One thing that must be said is that some of this "anti union" stuff is true. Unions DO protect dead wood, but it is their job to protect their membership, much like a defense attorney must fight for his client no matter that he knows he is guilty as sin. Remember O.J.? The flip side is that you have NO protection and can be fired at will without just cause just because you rub your boss wrong. We have all known people like that. Either we don't like them for some reason or vice versa. How would you like to loose your job just because one of these people is your boss? Unfortunately, there is not much of a happy medium. You either have protection or you don't. It's a little like the justice system. Better to set the guilty free than to execute an innocent man.

As to Ewill's comments ("rant" :)), all very true, but as I said before, in business you don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate. Sad and unfortunate, but true. You deserve what the consumer pays the dealer.

dkozloski
12-04-08, 11:48 PM
One thing that must be said is that some of this "anti union" stuff is true. Unions DO protect dead wood, but it is their job to protect their membership, much like a defense attorney must fight for his client no matter that he knows he is guilty as sin. Remember O.J.? The flip side is that you have NO protection and can be fired at will without just cause just because you rub your boss wrong. We have all known people like that. Either we don't like them for some reason or vice versa. How would you like to loose your job just because one of these people is your boss? Unfortunately, there is not much of a happy medium. You either have protection or you don't. It's a little like the justice system. Better to set the guilty free than to execute an innocent man.

As to Ewill's comments ("rant" :)), all very true, but as I said before, in business you don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate. Sad and unfortunate, but true. You deserve what the consumer pays the dealer.
What you say is not exactly true. Even if there is no bargaining agreement the employer has to treat every employee the same way. If someone is taking notes, about every management labor decision becomes a precedent. Most every company of any size nowdays has a company manual and a set of rules to go by. I've always gotten way better treatment as a non-represented employee from an enlightened employer. With a union you don't get one inch more than the contract spells out, even if the agreement is stupid.

dkozloski
12-04-08, 11:54 PM
It's worth your while to take a look at the way the Lincoln Electric Company operates. You never get laid off no matter how tough times get. At the end of the year all the company profits are added up and divided by the number of employees. Everybody gets the same sized bonus check; from the company president to the janitor. Almost every year the bonus exceeds wages. No other company in the world can match the productivity of the employees.
I went to the local dealer and told them what kind of machine I wanted, a TIG 300/300. They had it flown in from 4500 miles away and in two days it was set up and I was using it.

ewill3rd
12-05-08, 06:47 AM
koz, no we don't see deliberate stuff like that.
I'd love to rant some more, but I am not going to.

Ranger
12-05-08, 10:18 AM
Lincoln Electric is an oddity and a rarity today. Most big companies take care of senior management. Employees are a necessary evil.