: Buick / Cadillac



Lord Cadillac
11-28-08, 01:34 PM
Can Buick be more luxurious than Cadillac as long as it's less sporty? Would that cause any problems? Cadillac is luxury and sport combined - so I don't see why Buick can't live on as a Lexus fighter with no F-Series while Cadillac sets their goals to take back drivers who've switched to BMW.

All Buick needs is nicer designs - and I think they're coming.. But, I think the designs could be even nicer - just it's not easy without looking better than Cadillac.. However, if both brands offer an entirely different driving experience, it could work..

Any thoughts?

The Tony Show
11-28-08, 01:44 PM
In theory, yes. The problem though, is that Buick needs a good 10 years of solid, high quality product before it sheds the image of "Grandpa's car". Cadillac has mostly rebuilt their brand cache with the public, whereas Buick is still not a desirable car mentioned in music, etc.

MauiV
11-28-08, 02:06 PM
I like what Buick has done with the Enclave and Lucerne. I also like the Riviera concept and some of the other stuff Buick has on the drawing boards.

IMO Cadillac needs to build a true luxury flagship car. Something to go after the S Class, 7 Series, LS430 and A8's of the world.

The new CTS is a great entry level car. The Escalade is as good as any competitor. Now Cadillac needs to tweak the STS and totally redesign the DeVille line to compete with the tops in "luxury" and amenities.

orconn
11-28-08, 02:40 PM
Despite Tiger Woods, Buick is definitely an "old persons" car, just right for non-car person of a certain age who wants old fashioned American luxury in a package perfectly acceptable to ones middle class neighbors ...... an Avalon maybe, nah we gotta buy American.

I disagree about Cadillac having changed its' image. It has made progress with the autotive cognoscenti, but among your average "buy it for the prestige" upper income young professional, graduation from the Japanese value brands definitely still means going German or maybe Lexus. Cadillac is still an old persons car in their mind and not be considered suitable to their age and status. My son, bless his hedonistic little heart is this way (as are his 40 year old mentors) and his "newly arrived in the upper middle class" wife is even more convinced of this.

Cadillac needs a prestige model to knock the socks off the rich and famous to reassert itself in the luxury market. The Sixteen would filled the bill but it's not likely to see limited production. Without an upgrade of its' target market, Cadillac is going to just be a better Buick. Not a bad thing but nothing to write home about either.

Jesda
11-28-08, 03:11 PM
The Enclave is capturing younger and more affluent buyers. All it took was a focus on style, comfort, and functionality. It is, as Bob Lutz intended, the ultimate Lexus competitor. Blows the RX away, but of course doesn't compete with the Cayenne, SRX, FX, or other sporty-utes.

tman2093
11-28-08, 03:18 PM
When Pontiac or Saturn bites the dust, as one of them inevitably will, I think, similar to how Buick got the Rainier from the Bravada, that it is time for the Buick Bengal......

MauiV
11-28-08, 03:23 PM
Blows the RX away, but of course doesn't compete with the Cayenne, SRX, FX, or other sporty-utes.

I would MUCH rather have an Enclave over an SRX. IMO the SRX looks like a station agon gone wrong and I also prefer the Enclave interior BY FAR.

The Turbo Cayanne I would prefer but its a tough call with the FX.

CIWS
11-28-08, 07:10 PM
I would MUCH rather have an Enclave over an SRX. IMO the SRX looks like a station agon gone wrong and I also prefer the Enclave interior BY FAR.


Yeah but the old one is dead. Here's the one that's hopefully still coming. (guess where it gets its cues.)

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com//pictures/VEHICLE/2010/Cadillac/2010.cadillac.srx.20242621-E.jpg


http://www.edmunds.com/cadillac/srx/2010/picturearchive.html

ryannel2003
11-28-08, 08:22 PM
While the SRX is definitely a mommy mobile, I always liked the design and the handling. The interior on the '07+ is elegant and well built, and it has a great driving position.

Love the design of the '10 model, but would like to see pictures of the interior before I make final judgement.

Lord Cadillac
11-29-08, 12:34 AM
Now all they need is an ES and GS.. That would bring Buick back to life.. Once they've succeeded there, they can work on a Buick LS460... It CAN happen.. I hope they continue on the road they're on.. I think the Lucerne is going away.. I think it's getting replaced by the LaCrosse - which is getting bigger...

As of now, they HAVE the midsize SUV and they're about the have the LaCrosse - I'm just not sure what the LaCrosse is competing with over at Lexus...


The Enclave is capturing younger and more affluent buyers. All it took was a focus on style, comfort, and functionality. It is, as Bob Lutz intended, the ultimate Lexus competitor. Blows the RX away, but of course doesn't compete with the Cayenne, SRX, FX, or other sporty-utes.

Cadillac needs a Buick Enclave. That's sad..


I would MUCH rather have an Enclave over an SRX. IMO the SRX looks like a station agon gone wrong and I also prefer the Enclave interior BY FAR.

The Turbo Cayanne I would prefer but its a tough call with the FX.


Yeah but the old one is dead. Here's the one that's hopefully still coming. (guess where it gets its cues.)

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com//pictures/VEHICLE/2010/Cadillac/2010.cadillac.srx.20242621-E.jpg


http://www.edmunds.com/cadillac/srx/2010/picturearchive.html
I haven't done my homework. Is the new Cadillac SRX a lot like the Buick Enclave?

c5 rv
11-29-08, 08:07 AM
I haven't done my homework. Is the new Cadillac SRX a lot like the Buick Enclave?

The 2010 SRX will be based on the Theta (II?) platform (Equinox, Torrent, Vue). The Enclave, etc. are on the Sigma platform.

MauiV
11-29-08, 08:27 AM
I still like the Enclave better than the SRX in that pic.

CIWS
11-29-08, 08:47 AM
NAIAS in January should show the more final production look of the vehicle, both inside and out. I would suspect it's inside will be similar to the current CTS in styling and features.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
11-29-08, 10:43 AM
I think Buick should offer Lexus like (or would it be Buick like?) ride, quietness, build quality and luxury, at prices much less than Lexus has. We'll "do to Lexus what Lexus did to Mercedes".... Cadillac should go and conquer M-B and BMW...which are still considered the kings of the luxury & luxury/sport market across the world. Cadillac should offer what they have, and make it COMPARABLE, at a significantly smaller price. Buick doesn't need to have the sporty attitude that Cadillac does....or atleast not as widespread as Cadillac does... they just need quiet, plush, luxurious cars that are comparable with Lexus.

The Tony Show
11-29-08, 11:02 AM
Cadillac needs a Buick Enclave. That's sad..

How is that sad? It's designed and built by GM, the same people that build Cadillac. What badge they slap on it first is inconsequential- had it been released as a Cadillac first, people would deride it for being a "cheap version of the Cadillac", but since they tagged it a Buick, now people will decry the Cadillac version as a "tarted up Buick".

Once again, you prove my point about the public perception of Buick being poor. Lexus' sales leader is the ES, so is it "sad" that Lexus needs a Toyota Camry?

Double standard much? Sheesh....

LS1Mike
11-29-08, 12:15 PM
How is that sad? It's designed and built by GM, the same people that build Cadillac. What badge they slap on it first is inconsequential- had it been released as a Cadillac first, people would deride it for being a "cheap version of the Cadillac", but since they tagged it a Buick, now people will decry the Cadillac version as a "tarted up Buick".

Once again, you prove my point about the public perception of Buick being poor. Lexus' sales leader is the ES, so is it "sad" that Lexus needs a Toyota Camry?

Double standard much? Sheesh....
:yup::stirpot::werd:
Tony I feel we mave have been seperated at birth.:histeric:

LS1Mike
11-29-08, 12:17 PM
The 2010 SRX will be based on the Theta (II?) platform (Equinox, Torrent, Vue). The Enclave, etc. are on the Sigma platform.

Interesting. I like our Equinox for what it is. I am suprised Cadillac would not just keep the current CTSish platform.

The Tony Show
11-29-08, 12:31 PM
The Sigma based SRX is a monster in its class- the top sellers are the RDX and RX330, which are both a LOT smaller than the SRX, so Cadillac is just adjusting to market demand.

I also thought I should add how amusing it is that people judge the next SRX (or any other platform shared vehicle) using the lowest brand as the litmus test for quality. After all the threads raving about how great the new Hyundai is, I'm surprised to see people judging a product on it's badge instead of it's merits. If the Hyundai deserves laurels for being as quiet or as quick as a Lexus and BMW, the Enclave deserves the same for being as nice (or nicer) than it's more expensive competitors. See the "Perceptions of GM stuck in the 70's" thread for more details.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
11-29-08, 12:40 PM
Hmmm... Interesting... I guess I never saw it like that.

The Tony Show
11-29-08, 12:52 PM
It's the typical bias in the public right now. When the Genesis is discussed, everyone wants to crow about how it doesn't matter that it's a Hyundai, only how quiet or comfortable the car is. The conversation switches to the Enclave, and immediately the comments change to "Pffft. It's a Buick". The same people telling us that the Genesis is great regardless of the badge are the same people saying an Enclave based Cadillac would suck because of the badge.

"Judge a vehicle on it's merits, not it's badge! (unless it's domestic)" is the new mantra.

gary88
11-29-08, 01:11 PM
I had an '07 SRX as a loaner once and really liked it. The updated interior was excellent compared to the previous one straight out of the CTS, the 3.6L gave it decent power, it handled nicely, and was plenty comfortable. 4/5 on the Jesda scale.

RightTurn
11-29-08, 01:13 PM
"Judge a vehicle on it's merits, not it's badge! (unless it's domestic)"[/I] is the new mantra.

Sorry, I'd never buy a Hyundai. :lol:

LS1Mike
11-29-08, 02:04 PM
The Sigma based SRX is a monster in its class- the top sellers are the RDX and RX330, which are both a LOT smaller than the SRX, so Cadillac is just adjusting to market demand.

I also thought I should add how amusing it is that people judge the next SRX (or any other platform shared vehicle) using the lowest brand as the litmus test for quality. After all the threads raving about how great the new Hyundai is, I'm surprised to see people judging a product on it's badge instead of it's merits. If the Hyundai deserves laurels for being as quiet or as quick as a Lexus and BMW, the Enclave deserves the same for being as nice (or nicer) than it's more expensive competitors. See the "Perceptions of GM stuck in the 70's" thread for more details.

EXACTLY! That would be like me saying, "Oh the Genisis is shit becuase this is the company that makes the Accent and in the past 20 years has brought to us the engieering marvels of the Scoupe and the Excel Pony"
Never been a more false statment. Things change. Just becuase I don't choose to drive an import name plate doesn't mean I don't know that some of the stuff they make is great.

The Genisis is fine car that Hyundai has done a good job with. Seems people have forgiven them for the crap they put out in the 80's and 90's. The same people can't forgive GM. Hypocrites is what I say.

Can't have it both ways folks. Either the Enclave is a very good vehicle put out by GM based on it merits and will be just as good or better as a Cadillac, or you are just that guy who likes to bash ANYTHING GM because well it is the in thing to do.

Cliff8928
11-29-08, 03:24 PM
The Genisis is fine car that Hyundai has done a good job with. Seems people have forgiven them for the crap they put out in the 80's and 90's. The same people can't forgive GM. Hypocrites is what I say.

But you see there is one major difference there. Hyundai never did rule the automotive market. GM did and they declined. So to regain their previous status is harder.

I do however think that they are getting their acts together in the vehicles they are building. They're light years ahead of what was there 10 years ago.

77CDV
11-30-08, 12:53 AM
The answer to Sal's original question is, yes, Buick can be more luxurious than Cadillac, and at one time was. Prior to WWII, Buick's top-line car was called the Limited, and it was bigger, more powerful, roomier, and better appointed than all Cadillacs save the Series 90. In fact, it was based off the Series 90 body, but without the V16. It was the car for people who had money but weren't inclined to crow about it.

Buick could do very well as a Lexus alternative today, and I believe that's what they're striving for, if GM doesn't go toes up first. Like Lexus, they can cover the full luxury spectrum from near-luxury to crossovers and SUVs to high-end traditional luxury, but unlike Lexus, can have memorable styling and something resembling a soul.

Aron9000
11-30-08, 03:18 AM
Bring back the Grand National/turbo Regal. Otherwise kill Buick, they haven't made anything of significance since then. Just old people cars, and even the old people aren't buying them. They've all moved on to Camrys and Avalons.

Let Cadillac be the luxury division, let Chevy build the $35,000 FWD Avalon/Lucerne/Taurus bland-mobiles with heated/cooled leather seats.

ryannel2003
11-30-08, 11:25 AM
Buick's Enclave is an extremely impressive vehicle. Screw the fact that it's a Buick, it's just a damn good vehicle. Comfortable, powerful, and quiet. In fact, it's quieter inside than any of the current Cadillac's. I like what Buick is doing with their lineup. I drove a Lucerne yesterday and wouldn't hesitate one bit to pick one over the DTS; as a matter of fact, I prefer the styling of the Lucerne to the DTS.

Buick's image is still one that caters to an older generation. It's unfortunate, because the newest products aren't bad at all. The only model that needs work is the current LaCrosse; however the new model, from what I have seen in spyshots, looks very impressive.

Lord Cadillac
12-01-08, 01:23 PM
You misunderstood me and posted several times after this as a result - all based on a misunderstanding.. The part that's "sad" (to me) about Cadillac needing a Buick is that Buick would get the Enclave FIRST. The Enclave SHOULD have been a Cadillac to begin with.

Since the Enclave came out I've been saying that Cadillac needs one. Let Cadillac get these great vehicles and then have them make their way down into Buick - not the other way around.

Buick doesn't need to be "poor". They can compete with Lexus with enough money in the bank.


How is that sad? It's designed and built by GM, the same people that build Cadillac. What badge they slap on it first is inconsequential- had it been released as a Cadillac first, people would deride it for being a "cheap version of the Cadillac", but since they tagged it a Buick, now people will decry the Cadillac version as a "tarted up Buick".

Once again, you prove my point about the public perception of Buick being poor. Lexus' sales leader is the ES, so is it "sad" that Lexus needs a Toyota Camry?

Double standard much? Sheesh....

You too.. He misunderstood what I said.


:yup::stirpot::werd:
Tony I feel we mave have been seperated at birth.:histeric:

The Buick Enclave is excellent. It's the best Buick on the market right now - and not far off from being the best Crossover SUV available. I don't take anything away from the Enclave because it has a Buick badge. At the same time, the Hyundai Genesis is a better luxury sport sedan than anything available at Cadillac. So?

Sure. The STS-V is faster. Big deal. The Genesis is a very well-rounded luxury sport sedan. More so than the DTS - the only car that Cadillac really has to compete with it.


It's the typical bias in the public right now. When the Genesis is discussed, everyone wants to crow about how it doesn't matter that it's a Hyundai, only how quiet or comfortable the car is. The conversation switches to the Enclave, and immediately the comments change to "Pffft. It's a Buick". The same people telling us that the Genesis is great regardless of the badge are the same people saying an Enclave based Cadillac would suck because of the badge.

"Judge a vehicle on it's merits, not it's badge! (unless it's domestic)" is the new mantra.

Am I overlooking something? Who is bashing the Enclave?


Can't have it both ways folks. Either the Enclave is a very good vehicle put out by GM based on it merits and will be just as good or better as a Cadillac, or you are just that guy who likes to bash ANYTHING GM because well it is the in thing to do.

This would be great. I'd like to see Buick go after Lexus. Honestly, I'd rather see Cadillac do that - but since I know it won't, Buick will have to do. I would have no problem buying a Buick over a Lexus if it were an equal or better vehicle.


The answer to Sal's original question is, yes, Buick can be more luxurious than Cadillac, and at one time was. Prior to WWII, Buick's top-line car was called the Limited, and it was bigger, more powerful, roomier, and better appointed than all Cadillacs save the Series 90. In fact, it was based off the Series 90 body, but without the V16. It was the car for people who had money but weren't inclined to crow about it.

Buick could do very well as a Lexus alternative today, and I believe that's what they're striving for, if GM doesn't go toes up first. Like Lexus, they can cover the full luxury spectrum from near-luxury to crossovers and SUVs to high-end traditional luxury, but unlike Lexus, can have memorable styling and something resembling a soul.

77CDV
12-01-08, 02:38 PM
I take Sal's points above, but I still say Buick should be the Lexus fighter. Cadillac should be allowed to become what Cadillac traditionally was: the car that says, "I've made it, I have bucks galore to throw around, and I want the world and his wife to know it." Cadillac has to be the flashiest, most stylish, best-built, most powerful pure luxury car out there, BUT at a price that undercuts the competition (S-Class, 7 Series, A8, Bentley, RR) by a significant margin. Cadillac also must return to its old strategy of underproduction; a Cadillac should never be too easy to buy, and supply should always run slightly under demand.

First, though, GM has to find a way to survive the current turmoil.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-01-08, 02:51 PM
Cadillac also must return to its old strategy of underproduction; a Cadillac should never be too easy to buy, and supply should always run slightly under demand.

I LOVE that idea! Do it just like they did with the '57-60 Eldorado Broughams..

Just not as expensive.... :p

77CDV
12-01-08, 03:08 PM
Well, not so much the Eldo Broughams, which in any case were totally out of reach for all but the very wealthy few ($12K in 1957!). But even the regular models, from the Series 62 coupe (~$3500) up through the Eldorado Biarritz (~$7500), were not produced in large numbers, and it was on purpose. That scarcity coupled with unparalled build quality (then-GM Calvin Werner had RR as his benchmark) and unmistakeable styling was what made Cadillac THE car to own, and also kept resale values high.

hueterm
12-01-08, 08:04 PM
I did the inflation calculator on $12500 in 1959, and it's $80 something now -- just like an XLR....except for the resale value....

orconn
12-01-08, 10:23 PM
I did the inflation calculator on $12500 in 1959, and it's $80 something now -- just like an XLR....except for the resale value....

I think your calcualtion on the cost of the 1957 Eldorado Brougham is a bit misleading. In 1957 the average family income was less that $4000.00 for a family of four. The cost of the average house in the US was around $10,000. or less. A Rolls-Royce Silver Cloud had just exceeded $10,000. A Ferrari was about $7000. and a Jaguar XK150 about $4000. (less that $3000. FOB UK).

So at $12,500. if we compare it to current housing prices it would be more like $250,000. Likewise it would exceed present day new prices of a Rolls-Royce. And cost over three times the price of a Jaguar or Mercedes for that matter. Mercedes in 1957 did have the 300D sedan which was about $8000.00 as was the 300 SL.

The '57 Eldorado Brougham was really equivalent to the "Sixteen" of today, if it were produced. And let's not forget that inspite of its $12,500. price tag GM last money on every one they sold. As did Ford with its' Continental Mark II which sold for $10,000. Incidentally, the resale value stunk for all those cars losing almost half their retail price in the second year!

c5 rv
12-02-08, 12:54 PM
Buick is toast.

From a Wall Street Journal article today about Ford's plan to congress:

"GM will also say it is considering consolidating or selling at least one brand, most likely Saab, these people said. GM has also talked with Chinese auto maker Shanghai Automotive Industry Corp., its partner in China, about the sale of at least a portion of Buick, they said."

If they sell the only successful part of Buick, the Chinese part, to their partner SAIC, that pretty much dooms the rest of the brand.

Lord Cadillac
12-02-08, 01:42 PM
Saab is officially for sale and Opel will likely be the design platform for future Buicks.. I think Buick will be around for awhile...