: Doing to Lexus what Lexus did to Mercedes.



I~LUV~Caddys8792
11-21-08, 05:11 PM
The new slogan for the Hyundai Genesis....Brilliant! I love it!

gary88
11-21-08, 05:20 PM
Moar info needed please

I~LUV~Caddys8792
11-21-08, 05:22 PM
I'm trying like hell to find the billboard I saw it on.

urbanski
11-21-08, 05:33 PM
what did lexus do to mercedes anyways

I~LUV~Caddys8792
11-21-08, 06:04 PM
Destroyed them.

They took what Mercedes had established though years of engineering, reverse-engineered what Mercedes already did, but for a fraction of the cost (to the consumer) and undercut their entire business by taking lots of their customers and lowering their reputation. Lexus (and Infiniti) are partially to blame for the decline in Mercedes products from 1996 to about 2004 or so, in terms of material quality, build quality, reliability and engineering quality and depth, because L & I offered cars with more innovative features at a lower cost, so Mercedes decided to give up on their "cost be damned" style of engineering & design and start designing cars with too many features with too little of R&D time and money.

Jesda
11-21-08, 06:45 PM
That slogan is epic, LOL

Lord Cadillac
11-21-08, 06:56 PM
Now that Lexus prices are skyrocketing off the charts, Hyundai is coming along and giving almost everything at a bargain. Good stuff..

ryannel2003
11-21-08, 07:31 PM
I love it.

Destroyer
11-21-08, 08:25 PM
Its still a Hyundai. At least Toyota made another division for its high end offerings. You cannot imagine how many people dont know that Lexus is a Toyota and Infiniti is a Nissan.

Destroyer
11-21-08, 08:28 PM
Destroyed them.

They took what Mercedes had established though years of engineering, reverse-engineered what Mercedes already did, but for a fraction of the cost (to the consumer) and undercut their entire business by taking lots of their customers and lowering their reputation. Lexus (and Infiniti) are partially to blame for the decline in Mercedes products from 1996 to about 2004 or so, in terms of material quality, build quality, reliability and engineering quality and depth, because L & I offered cars with more innovative features at a lower cost, so Mercedes decided to give up on their "cost be damned" style of engineering & design and start designing cars with too many features with too little of R&D time and money.
I dare say that I see a lot more Mercedes driving around than Lexus.............or maybe I dont. Perhaps I just dont notice Lexus cause it blends so well with all the other Toyota's?.

Razorecko
11-21-08, 08:33 PM
well toyota quality has gone down the drain for sure. It will be very ironic to watch karma throw down the guantlet with lexus.

billc83
11-21-08, 09:39 PM
I beg to differ that Lexus "destroyed" Mercedes. Lexus certainly did undercut them, however, with quality product and service. If you really want to label one brand as Mercedes' destroyer, I'd be looking towards Bavaria, not Japan. BMW's used to be the Mercedes for those who wanted to appear a bit more conservative; its move upmarket changed all that. And even before BMW moved up in the world, they were on Mercedes' radar screen.

+1 to Destroyer (a bit ironic). Yes, it's still a Hyundai, and it will not sell to brand-snobs and luxury-purists. But, it takes MUCH more money to build an entire luxury brand from scratch than it takes to develop a single car. I have a sneaking suspicion that Hyundai is testing the waters and I won't be surprised if they launch a new luxury brand in 7-10 years...maybe sooner. Unless the Genesis is a complete flop, which it is already proving not to be.

After some seat time in the Genesis, I came away impressed. Fit and finish was excellent; the cabin was in line with what a luxury automobile should offer. In my mind, there's no question why it's getting so much attention. BTW, the press for this thing is brilliant! "7-Series space at a 3-Series price" has got to be one of my favorite taglines lately.

thebigjimsho
11-21-08, 09:54 PM
I NEED to drive a Genesis, pronto!

Spittin Game
11-21-08, 11:04 PM
Its a Hyundai. Enough said...

ryannel2003
11-21-08, 11:26 PM
That's not true anymore. Hyundai's meets or beats Toyota and Honda in every category of vehicle they build, and they sure blow GM out of the water when it comes to build quality. Plus, that warranty is just the icing on top the cake.

All of these comments were similar to what people said about the Lexus LS400 in 1989. Sure, Toyota branched out and created a separate company, but still. The Genesis is a damn good car at a damn good price.

concorso
11-21-08, 11:40 PM
That's not true anymore. Hyundai's meets or beats Toyota and Honda in every category of vehicle they build, and they sure blow GM out of the water when it comes to build quality. Plus, that warranty is just the icing on top the cake.

All of these comments were similar to what people said about the Lexus LS400 in 1989. Sure, Toyota branched out and created a separate company, but still. The Genesis is a damn good car at a damn good price.The problem is Hyundai was saying the same thing about the old XG's which were a shart away from crap.

That doesnt mean that the the new ones won't live up to expectation. I was impressed with the new Sante Fe's quality.

LS1Mike
11-22-08, 12:19 AM
That's not true anymore. Hyundai's meets or beats Toyota and Honda in every category of vehicle they build, and they sure blow GM out of the water when it comes to build quality.


That is the funniest thing on the internet right now.
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/dependability-ratings-by-brand
Hyundai has one come a long way but that statment is ridiculous.

Destroyer
11-22-08, 06:50 AM
Yes, it's still a Hyundai, and it will not sell to brand-snobs and luxury-purists.
That brand-snobs and luxury-purists are (arguably) the luxury car market.

billc83
11-22-08, 09:20 AM
I've cross-shopped several luxury cars lately, after driving by the Hyundai place decided to stop in and take a look at the Genesis. Really, I'm just narrowing down my long list; the Genesis undoubtably will make it to my short list, along with the Cadillac CTS and Infiniti G37. Possibly a Lexus IS, too. The point is, I can't be the only one cross-shopping the lowly Hyundai with established luxury brands. And since the Genesis actually holds its own in a comparison (gasp!), the Hyundai badge may be the only thing scaring away the traditional luxury customers.

A lot of comparisons have been made to the Genesis now and Lexus in 1989. But when Toyota spun off Lexus, they had a sterling reputation with quality and a very satisfied buying public who had embraced them. Hyundai, though they've been working hard on erasing the memories of those cheapmobile Excels from the past, still has a reputation in many minds as being bottom of the barrel. This is why I think a full luxury make for Hyundai may be a bit premature, along with the financial difficulties that come with building an entirely new automotive brand from scratch (especially a luxury brand...in this economy!). And I stand by my feeling that Hyundai will eventually start up its own luxury division, and when that happens, the Mercedes' and Lexii of the world had better be losing sleep and having nightmares about a Korean luxury division shaking up the status quo.

Lord Cadillac
11-22-08, 10:40 AM
Go to www.genesisowners.com for more information on the Genesis. You'll find a barrage of owners of Lexus, Infiniti, BMW and Mercedes who switched to the Genesis sedan. The car is big, roomy, comfortable, built well and very powerful...

Lord Cadillac
11-22-08, 10:41 AM
Its a Hyundai. Enough said...
That's more of a knock on GM, Ford and Chrysler than Hyundai. And that's a shame...

"G$"
11-22-08, 11:56 AM
so Mercedes decided to give up on their "cost be damned" style of engineering & design and start designing cars with too many features with too little of R&D time and money.

ahhh...reminds me of a 97 SLS I once owned.

*pours our liquor*

"G$"
11-22-08, 12:01 PM
i drive all around northern new england for my job and I have not seen one Hyndai Genesis except parked outside the dealership. Adoption has been non-existent here. I have seen a lot of Hyndai Azera's though.

I'm just saying. I don't see anyone buying one yet in these parts.

Spittin Game
11-22-08, 01:57 PM
That's more of a knock on GM, Ford and Chrysler than Hyundai. And that's a shame...

...?

Cliff8928
11-22-08, 02:03 PM
Destroyed them.

They took what Mercedes had established though years of engineering, reverse-engineered what Mercedes already did, but for a fraction of the cost (to the consumer) and undercut their entire business by taking lots of their customers and lowering their reputation. Lexus (and Infiniti) are partially to blame for the decline in Mercedes products from 1996 to about 2004 or so, in terms of material quality, build quality, reliability and engineering quality and depth, because L & I offered cars with more innovative features at a lower cost, so Mercedes decided to give up on their "cost be damned" style of engineering & design and start designing cars with too many features with too little of R&D time and money.

I'll agree on that one. Mercedes hasn't been the same since the W140.

thebigjimsho
11-22-08, 03:04 PM
i drive all around northern new england for my job and I have not seen one Hyndai Genesis except parked outside the dealership. Adoption has been non-existent here. I have seen a lot of Hyndai Azera's though.

I'm just saying. I don't see anyone buying one yet in these parts.They've only been for sale the past couple months. And I've actually seen quite a few...

ryannel2003
11-22-08, 05:03 PM
Ok so Hyundai as a whole isn't up to par with other automakers, but the build quality is still light years ahead of what I've seen in recent Toyota's and Honda's. It's up there with the latest Cadillac's when it comes to build quality. I'm with Sal, the Genesis is a great vehicle. I wouldn't hesitate to own one.

Oh, and I'm glad I made someone laugh. That is one of my few missions in life! :p

Night Wolf
11-22-08, 06:37 PM
Its still a Hyundai. At least Toyota made another division for its high end offerings. You cannot imagine how many people dont know that Lexus is a Toyota and Infiniti is a Nissan.

I don't think a Hyundai luxury brand would be far off...

The Genesis is the modern version of the 80's Cressida, and what that car did and led for Toyota:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Cressida

dqw1
11-22-08, 08:08 PM
I actually like the Sonata. They've come a long way. People look down on Hyundai just like Euro lovers look down on american cars no matter how much they've improved.

Night Wolf
11-22-08, 10:00 PM
Let's also keep in mind what the Greek meaning of the word Genesis is...

Beginning.

I wonder if the Hyundai Exodus will be next?

Destroyer
11-22-08, 10:29 PM
Let's also keep in mind what the Greek meaning of the word Genesis is...

Beginning.

Damn, I'm Greek and I didn't even catch that. :hmm:

Night Wolf
11-22-08, 10:58 PM
Heh, it was the first thing I thought of when I first heard about the car, tho it may be fresh in my mind because of a certain (only) book I read...

parexa
11-23-08, 11:49 PM
The grille was designed by a 14yr old. :(
http://www.hot.ee/stockoperator/19866.jpg

I had to obama it. Its almost like a Lexus now


http://www.hot.ee/stockoperator/genesis.jpg

Destroyer
11-24-08, 01:18 AM
I had to obama it. Its almost like a Lexus now


Do I detect some racial overtones in that statement?:rolleyes:

parexa
11-24-08, 01:39 AM
not at all

urban dictionary

obama
synomous slang word for "Change" among college students and young Americans.
Hey yo, Gimme the remote, I gonna Obama the channel

Jesda
11-24-08, 10:04 AM
Hey, that blacked out grille is nice.

ryannel2003
11-24-08, 10:29 AM
Do I detect some racial overtones in that statement?:rolleyes:

Haha, I was kinda thinking the same thing. Glad I'm not the only one.

The car does look a whole lot better with the blacked out grille though.

orconn
11-24-08, 12:25 PM
It does look better with the "blacked out" grill. But over all it looks like a generic late first decade 21st first century car. Boring to the extreme! If half the new cars out there disappeared nobody would know the difference.

Lord Cadillac
11-24-08, 02:43 PM
The aftermarket for grilles is going to be very busy for the Genesis..

I~LUV~Caddys8792
11-24-08, 10:28 PM
While we're on the topic of Lexus v. Mercedes, I rode in a 1994 LS400 today, and my god that thing was dull. Compared to a similar STS, the design, in and out, was SUPER bland and generic, it was slow, it was quiet, it was uninvolving to look at or ride in... No matter how high the risk of headgasket repairs on a Northstar STS would be, I'd take one over an LS400.

ryannel2003
11-24-08, 10:39 PM
Which is the main reason why I didn't buy one. I was really close to getting a LS400 or GS300/400. Luckily, I wised up. :)

ted tcb
11-24-08, 11:07 PM
The 2000 LS400, with the 295hp/5spd auto, plus lower curb weight, is a different animal.
Definitely a faster car than the STS, and I found the RWD felt much better coming out of corners.
0-60 in 6.3sec, top speed of 155mph, 30mpg at 80mph, and the lowest drag coef of just about any car ever made.
No wonder its quiet.

The LS is very subtle, it's level of refinement and materials slowly grow on you.
Every switch is properly placed and softly dampened ... the Nakamichi stereo makes the Bose sound like a transistor radio.
My 1st drive, the LS400 kind of felt like a big old Buick, and I was unimpressed.
I bought it anyway, because I was tired of fixing broken STS' ... I found every nuisance problem except the HG issue.
Where the STS wins hands down is styling ... it is a modern classic.
The only part of the car that ages it is the vast expanse of silver/aluminum around the projector headlights.
I prefer the 97 body style over the 98 due to the headlights ... other than that, the 98-02 STS is gorgeous.

After owning a bunch of STS', and two Lexus', I would only own an STS or ETC as a fun, part time vehicle, or a cheap winter beater.
I drove a 98 STS a couple of months ago, 1st time in a year.
It felt old, heavy and poorly made ... which it was.
But its great value as a used car ... you can pick up a decent 2000 STS for $6-7k , almost half the price of the same year LS400.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
11-24-08, 11:18 PM
I bet a 98-00 LS400 would feel a lot better, but it still lacks the charisma and character of any of it's European rivals.

Jesda
11-25-08, 09:43 AM
I have a hard time deciding between the Nakamichi system and Bose 4.0. I think the Nakamichi setup might have more dynamic range, but it works better at home than in a car. The Bose system is ideal for the cabin of a sedan. The LS400 is absolutely perfect, except for that transmission that slaps your hand for driving like someone with a soul. I sometimes miss that car. The level of comfort and refinement is out of this world. Its a unique experience.

Lord Cadillac
11-25-08, 10:11 AM
In 1994, the Lexus LS400 and Cadillac Seville STS were about the same regarding power. No noticeable difference. The design of the LS was definitely bland in comparison. However, it did what it was supposed to do - put the driver in the lap of luxury...

However, the Lexus LS got more powerful and was variously improved year by year - more so than the Cadillac STS.


While we're on the topic of Lexus v. Mercedes, I rode in a 1994 LS400 today, and my god that thing was dull. Compared to a similar STS, the design, in and out, was SUPER bland and generic, it was slow, it was quiet, it was uninvolving to look at or ride in... No matter how high the risk of headgasket repairs on a Northstar STS would be, I'd take one over an LS400.

"G$"
11-25-08, 10:20 AM
What was the last year of the LS400 old body style?
I love those cars. I wouldn't mind going down to Georgia, south carolina, or florida and picking up one wiht low miles & driving it back here.
I wonder how much a super loaded LS400 would set me back in the last year in the old body style... hmmm.


I drove an 06 mercedes C-series sport the other day because I liked the rims and my wife's 06 lexus is250 is coming off of lease. It sucked. The power sucked & the transmission took about a second to respond when you stepped on the gas. It was dirt cheap though. Wouldn't buy it.

Lord Cadillac
11-25-08, 10:22 AM
What was the last year of the LS400 old body style?
I love those cars. I wouldn't mind going down to Georgia, south carolina, or florida and picking up one wiht low miles & driving it back here.
I wonder how much a super loaded LS400 would set me back in the last year in the old body style... hmmm.


I drove an 06 mercedes C-series sport the other day because I liked the rims and my wife's 06 lexus is250 is coming off of lease. It sucked. The power sucked & the transmission took about a second to respond when you stepped on the gas. It was dirt cheap though. Wouldn't buy it.
http://www.edmunds.com/used/2000/lexus/ls400/1647/prices.html

I~LUV~Caddys8792
11-25-08, 11:05 AM
In 1994, the Lexus LS400 and Cadillac Seville STS were about the same regarding power. No noticeable difference. The design of the LS was definitely bland in comparison. However, it did what it was supposed to do - put the driver in the lap of luxury...

Actually, Sal, I'm gonna have to disagree here. Having driven a '94 STS, I can honestly say that thing was a lot quicker than the '94 LS400. I remember stepping the STS down from a 60mph roll and getting *thrown* back into my seat as I watched the speedometer needle jump from 60 to 80. The STS is much more of a driver's car...the LS400 is much of a passenger's car. Either way, I'd still take the STS over the LS any day of the week.

Oh and in the beginning, the STS had a huge power increase over the LS400...The STS made 295-300hp...the LS400 made 250 in 1994, then by 1996 is was 260, then finally by 1998, it was 290...but by then it was far quicker than an STS.

ted tcb
11-25-08, 12:02 PM
What was the last year of the LS400 old body style?
I love those cars. I wouldn't mind going down to Georgia, south carolina, or florida and picking up one wiht low miles & driving it back here.
I wonder how much a super loaded LS400 would set me back in the last year in the old body style... hmmm.


I drove an 06 mercedes C-series sport the other day because I liked the rims and my wife's 06 lexus is250 is coming off of lease. It sucked. The power sucked & the transmission took about a second to respond when you stepped on the gas. It was dirt cheap though. Wouldn't buy it.

Its hard to find a low mileage LS400 ... people drive them, many on Ebay have well over 200k on them.
Cheap ... that's the hard part. The last year they made them was 2000.
I sold mine to the owner of the local Mazda dealership. He ran it all summer as his personal vehicle, and has just put it on his lot for $15k, with 65k on her. That's low k for a 2000 LS400.
$15k is pretty strong money for a rwd 9 yr old car, epecially in the middle of the snow belt. But, people will seek it out. Other than some front end components, the car should be trouble free for another 200k. They are durable, fast, silent tanks.
This just shows why the STS is a great used car buy.
Our current Toronto Autotrader shows 2000 STS' averaging $6k, with the top price car going for $9k.
The STS has pretty much bottomed out. I mean, how much lower can it drop if you buy one for $6k?
I don't mean to bash the car ... nothing in the marketplace can give you the ride/speed/style for so little money. But if every little sound, drip, vibration drives you nuts, then don't buy one.
I'm just starting to look for a used ETC as a unique, part time car.
I'll just keep the HG guy in London on speed dial:yup:

orconn
11-25-08, 12:16 PM
I am afraid that generic Japanese luxury just doesn't ring my chime. A luxury car must have a unique sense of style about it not just a refinement of a generic family sedan. Most European luxury class cars have managed that feat. The Sevilles got it right, especially the STS. Lincoln fell short, and certainly Lexus and Infiniti have yet to make the grade. When the Japanese attempt unique they usually end up in "weird" or just plain ugly; i.e. the Lexus convertinette.

gothicaleigh
11-25-08, 01:06 PM
Meh. I'd consider it among similar cars like the Chrysler 300C and Kia Amanti (other luxury pretenders). Competition for BMW and Mercedes though?

:rofl:

"G$"
11-25-08, 01:19 PM
http://boston.craigslist.org/gbs/ctd/926828945.html

this one has 125k and is still 11,000 bucks. no thanks.

http://miami.craigslist.org/pbc/ctd/895551884.html

http://orlando.craigslist.org/cto/918057012.html
this one's 14,600 for 84k miles.

it never hurts to look!

Lord Cadillac
11-25-08, 01:41 PM
Could it be that 60mph on is where most of the difference in power lies?


Actually, Sal, I'm gonna have to disagree here. Having driven a '94 STS, I can honestly say that thing was a lot quicker than the '94 LS400. I remember stepping the STS down from a 60mph roll and getting *thrown* back into my seat as I watched the speedometer needle jump from 60 to 80. The STS is much more of a driver's car...the LS400 is much of a passenger's car. Either way, I'd still take the STS over the LS any day of the week.

Oh and in the beginning, the STS had a huge power increase over the LS400...The STS made 295-300hp...the LS400 made 250 in 1994, then by 1996 is was 260, then finally by 1998, it was 290...but by then it was far quicker than an STS.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
11-25-08, 02:16 PM
Perhaps, but the STS still has a 45-50hp advantage, in 1994 atleast.

ted tcb
11-25-08, 03:19 PM
The archilles heel on any car is excess weight, which directly affects handling, fuel economy, and speed.
That `94 STS weighed just over 3,800lbs.
The STS got fat, weighing in at over 4000lbs by 2000, keeping 4 gears, and maintaining horsepower.
The LS400 dropped weight by 2000, moving down around 3600lbs.
It gained 40hp and a 5 spd tranny in the process.
More important, the engine is a VVT-i design.
Variable valve timing with intelligence, a 2 stage hydraulically controlled cam phasing system ... makes the most of those 290 ponies, and that 5spd keeps the torque in the best useable range.
During those same years, the STS pretty much stayed with the same mechanicals right through to 2004.

Wards named the 1998-00 1UZ-FE motor as one of their Top Ten engines.
My 1998 copy of Car and Driver puts this car up against the Audi A8, 7 series BMW, S-Class, and the current Jaguar in a test for the world's best luxury ship. The unanimous pick was the LS400 ... the STS wasn't considered for the test ... not in the same league.
There's a reason why these cars have maintained their value when most cars have plummeting values ... they are damn good, and built to stay that way.

96Fleetwood
11-25-08, 03:26 PM
I can tell you one thing.. I have yet to see any Physicians at Hinsdale Hospital trading in their BMW 750s, Mercedes S550s, or Lexus LS460s for a Hyundai Genesis. In fact I have yet to see one in that lot period, I will keep you posted.

Lord Cadillac
11-25-08, 03:30 PM
In other words... The STS was cute - but that's about it...


Wards named the 1998-00 1UZ-FE motor as one of their Top Ten engines.

My 1998 copy of Car and Driver puts this car up against the Audi A8, 7 series BMW, S-Class, and the current Jaguar in a test for the world's best luxury ship. The unanimous pick was the LS400 ... the STS wasn't considered for the test ... not in the same league.

There's a reason why these cars have maintained their value when most cars have plummeting values ... they are damn good, and built to stay that way.

Lord Cadillac
11-25-08, 03:31 PM
I would not EVER expect any physicians to do this.. Unless they're doing very bad... Why would they?


I can tell you one thing.. I have yet to see any Physicians at Hinsdale Hospital trading in their BMW 750s, Mercedes S550s, or Lexus LS460s for a Hyundai Genesis. In fact I have yet to see one in that lot period, I will keep you posted.

Jesda
11-25-08, 07:35 PM
There's a reason why these cars have maintained their value when most cars have plummeting values ... they are damn good, and built to stay that way.


Absolutely, 200%. But good for... what?

Good for owning thanks to how well they hold their value. Good for owning because of low maintenance and repair costs. Good for cruising because of their exceptional comfort.

But for driving, and I mean spirited driving, there's better. One has to decide if compromising quality for grins is worthwhile, and if its part of their fiscal agenda. Most will decide its not worth the giving up all the Lexus virtues for some added fun behind the wheel. I'm not really among most in that regard.

The car magazine-reading, wrench-turning, do-it-yourselfing, know-every-detail enthusiasts tend to buy cars that provide a certain kind of feel to elicit certain kinds of emotions. The rest of the public just wants something reasonable, respectable, and comfortable. Lexus proved that there's a HUGE market for the latter.

Jesda
11-25-08, 07:37 PM
I would not EVER expect any physicians to do this.. Unless they're doing very bad... Why would they?

When it comes to cars, medical professionals fall into two extremes. They either buy the biggest, baddest, flashiest thing they can get, or they drive stodgy cars because they're too busy to care about what they drive.

There's a reason Buick once was known as a doctor's car.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
11-25-08, 07:47 PM
My 1998 copy of Car and Driver puts this car up against the Audi A8, 7 series BMW, S-Class, and the current Jaguar in a test for the world's best luxury ship. The unanimous pick was the LS400 ... the STS wasn't considered for the test ... not in the same league.

I have that same article at home, and IIRC, the main reason the LS400 won was because it offered sensational levels of comfort and refinement (soft and quiet) at a price $10,000- $15,000 less than the others in the comparison. It didn't drive as sharp as the 740iL, or it wasn't as overly luxurious and beautiful as the Vanden Plas or as meticulously engineered or as roomy as the S320, but it offered what most of those buyers really wanted at a price significantly less.

Jesda
11-25-08, 08:31 PM
It didn't drive as sharp as the 740iL, or it wasn't as overly luxurious and beautiful as the Vanden Plas or as meticulously engineered or as roomy as the S320, but it offered what most of those buyers really wanted at a price significantly less.

Indeed, which is why Hyundai has a real shot at winning over the masses -- not every luxury buyer cares about pedigree, prestige, or heritage. Some just want a whole lot of niceness, trouble-free ownership, and high levels of refinement. There's a mashed potatoes kind of easy pleasure in that.

ryannel2003
11-25-08, 10:22 PM
The LS400 looks too bland for my taste... though I did drive an '01 LS430 and it was perhaps the most perfectly build vehicle I've ever been in.

However, I drool over my STS every single day. Very few cars keep me interested for a long period of time but the Seville does. I'm sure it will continue to for quite awhile.

The LS400 is about as interesting to look at as my old Camry was. Where's the soul? Where's the passion?

ted tcb
11-25-08, 10:59 PM
Absolutely, 200%. But good for... what?

Good for owning thanks to how well they hold their value. Good for owning because of low maintenance and repair costs. Good for cruising because of their exceptional comfort.

But for driving, and I mean spirited driving, there's better. One has to decide if compromising quality for grins is worthwhile, and if its part of their fiscal agenda. Most will decide its not worth the giving up all the Lexus virtues for some added fun behind the wheel. I'm not really among most in that regard..

Interesting comments, Jesda.
The bulk of my driving is going a few blocks to work, or pleasure cruising.
The LS400 or to a lesser degree, ES300 suits my needs.
I used to race snowmobiles, and know what its like to push a machine to the edge of its envelope, and sometimes beyond.

The only place to do that in an automobile is on the track ... and the last car I would push through a sweeping, banked corner would be a two ton fwd STS. Nor would I do it with a heavy, soft LS400.

I agree with you on grins ... the LS lacks them. So does the STS, for me.
I had more grins with my 71 Cutlass convertible, or my 300ZX Turbo.
For my driving needs, I place a high value on elegance, sophistication, attention to detail, ride quality, and reliability. The Lexus does these things well.
I would still have the STS in my driveway, but with my 4 STS', I went through: Window regulators, interm. steering shaft, posessed sunroof, broken seat heaters, broken lumbar, instrument panel electric glitches,
failed ignition cylinder, tons of wheel imbalances, aspirator fan, plus regular replacement parts.
Interestingly enough, my motors and transmissions were rock solid, and the bodies held up well through the Canadian winters.

I agree with Ryan ... I never tired of the car's looks. I always turned back when I walked away from the STS ... the LS had a nice front end, but from every other angle, it looked like as homely as a Benz sedan.

ryannel2003
11-25-08, 11:20 PM
The niggling issues can really get to some people. I'm usually a perfectionist, so every time I see something new appear on my Seville I figure out how to fix it. I've had ignition switch replacement, intermediate shaft replacement, trunk weatherstrip, new theft module, still have a random "Service Theft System" show up on my DIC, slightly "off" idle, and of course the K-car shimmy among other things.

These cars aren't for people who want the perfect vehicle. I've learned to live with my issues, and I still love the car.

Lord Cadillac
11-26-08, 10:03 AM
Cadillac used to have that HUGE market.. I wonder WTF they were thinking when they handed it over to Lexus in the 90s in exchange for the few BMW-driving car magazine reading, wrench turning, do-it-yourselfing, know every detail enthusiasts. They could have very easily left Cadillac the way it was for traditional luxury car buyers (which there's obviously a HUGE market for) and made the V-Series alone in the BMW game...


The car magazine-reading, wrench-turning, do-it-yourselfing, know-every-detail enthusiasts tend to buy cars that provide a certain kind of feel to elicit certain kinds of emotions. The rest of the public just wants something reasonable, respectable, and comfortable. Lexus proved that there's a HUGE market for the latter.

Lord Cadillac
11-26-08, 10:04 AM
Well there's one demographic of physicians who will love the Hyundai Genesis...


When it comes to cars, medical professionals fall into two extremes. They either buy the biggest, baddest, flashiest thing they can get, or they drive stodgy cars because they're too busy to care about what they drive.

There's a reason Buick once was known as a doctor's car.

Jesda
11-26-08, 01:03 PM
Cadillac used to have that HUGE market.. I wonder WTF they were thinking when they handed it over to Lexus in the 90s in exchange for the few BMW-driving car magazine reading, wrench turning, do-it-yourselfing, know every detail enthusiasts. They could have very easily left Cadillac the way it was for traditional luxury car buyers (which there's obviously a HUGE market for) and made the V-Series alone in the BMW game...

I did a marketing project on this a few years ago.

BMW, MB, and Lexus buyers have more money. Much more. Cadillac always catered to the older folks who wanted something nice but weren't necessarily well off. Its a different kind of luxury buyer. Now, those people buy Mercury, Lincoln, and Buick. Cadillac moved upward, as it should have, leaving lesser brands to pick up the large volume of less affluent customers.

Destroyer
11-27-08, 11:41 AM
The LS400 is about as interesting to look at as my old Camry was. Where's the soul? Where's the passion?
Umm, cars dont have souls or passion. Those are traits of the owner and the owner can be just as passionate over a Lexus as he/she can over an STS. ;)

orconn
11-27-08, 01:58 PM
Umm, cars dont have souls or passion. Those are traits of the owner and the owner can be just as passionate over a Lexus as he/she can over an STS. ;)

This is true, but would you really want to go to dinner with the guy!

But it's true, different strokes for different folks.

thebigjimsho
11-27-08, 02:23 PM
Umm, cars dont have souls or passion. Those are traits of the owner and the owner can be just as passionate over a Lexus as he/she can over an STS. ;)Yeah, but Lexus owners are dumb.:suspect:

Jesda
11-27-08, 04:21 PM
Umm, cars dont have souls or passion. Those are traits of the owner and the owner can be just as passionate over a Lexus as he/she can over an STS. ;)

Like stamp collecting.

ted tcb
11-27-08, 08:12 PM
Like stamp collecting.

Or the joy one finds whilst navigating their new Buick Centrury, reading
the huge radio graphics through the bottom of their bifocals, being able to tune into the Lawrence Welk Sirius radio station for the 1st time.
That's called pushing the envelope, Buick-style.

Night Wolf
11-27-08, 10:43 PM
I dunno, some cars have a strong soul presence about them... hard to explain.

My Isuzu... awesome vehicle, dependable, great for what it does... but to me, it's like an appliance, don't get me wrong, I like it... but I like it for what it is to me. Same with the Lincoln, I like that car but I pretty like it for the type of car it is and what the car represents.

The BMW on the other hand... just has a very strong "personality" so to speak... No doubt that it's all in my head, and that is fine... but to me it feels like that car has it's own soul and I can connect with it. Very similar feeling to my first car - '93 Coupe DeVille that was stolen.... I like it, alot.... and as such all the little quirks, broken things or problems don't really bother me... I'll get around to fixing them within time.

Jesda
11-27-08, 11:00 PM
Or the joy one finds whilst navigating their new Buick Centrury, reading
the huge radio graphics through the bottom of their bifocals, being able to tune into the Lawrence Welk Sirius radio station for the 1st time.
That's called pushing the envelope, Buick-style.

That's my roommate's car, paid for with his own money. Big upgrade over a 2000 Saturn.

I'm not buying any Centurys. :) Nor anymore Lexuses.

orconn
11-27-08, 11:16 PM
Or the joy one finds whilst navigating their new Buick Centrury, reading
the huge radio graphics through the bottom of their bifocals, being able to tune into the Lawrence Welk Sirius radio station for the 1st time.
That's called pushing the envelope, Buick-style.

Hey, don't knock bi-focals!

ryannel2003
11-27-08, 11:18 PM
It's as simple as to what a person thinks looks better. I mean seriously, which of these would you choose?

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n46/ryannel2003/lexus_ls400.jpg

or

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n46/ryannel2003/Cadillac-Seville_SLS_2004_800x600_w.jpg

Some might prefer the Lexus. I don't.

Night Wolf
11-27-08, 11:26 PM
If you want to totally blend in to your surroundings, but still want a luxury car... that Lexus wouldn't be a bad idea.

ryannel2003
11-27-08, 11:30 PM
That's why the Genesis works so well in this marketplace. It blends in perfectly with other cars; the only difference is Hyundai didn't create a separate luxury brand.

Had Toyota not created the separate Lexus brand, would they be as successful? I wouldn't think so. Hyundai still has to prove themselves.

Night Wolf
11-28-08, 12:26 AM
That's why the Genesis works so well in this marketplace. It blends in perfectly with other cars; the only difference is Hyundai didn't create a separate luxury brand.

Had Toyota not created the separate Lexus brand, would they be as successful? I wouldn't think so. Hyundai still has to prove themselves.

I'm gonna say it again.....

the Genesis is to Hyundai what the Cressida, especially the very last gen was to Toyota.....

gary88
11-28-08, 12:40 AM
The Genesis has only been out for a couple of months. We can't assign it any status until a couple years from now after we see what, if anything it has done for Hyundai as a brand. If it sells really well, Hyundai could gather up $2 billion and try to create their own luxury line.

Jesda
11-28-08, 12:43 AM
Well, "preferring" the Lexus takes more than looking at the car. It didn't do much for me, but anyone who values low ownership costs, build quality, comfort, and resale value might prefer it -- thats a lot of people. I don't have kids or any non-selfish expenses, so this wasn't a time in my life to make a "smart" purchase. The Lexus crowd might be car-foolish, but they're money-smart.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
11-28-08, 08:46 AM
Between the 1998-00 LS400, XJ8L, S Class, 740iL and A8L, the S takes the cake for me, obviously, but the second spot probably goes to the XJ8, then third would probably be the 7 Series, then the A8, then the Lexus.

Lord Cadillac
11-28-08, 10:45 AM
The Caddy is definitely "the looker" but the Lexus doesn't look bad at all.


It's as simple as to what a person thinks looks better. I mean seriously, which of these would you choose?

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n46/ryannel2003/lexus_ls400.jpg

or

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n46/ryannel2003/Cadillac-Seville_SLS_2004_800x600_w.jpg

Some might prefer the Lexus. I don't.

Lord Cadillac
11-28-08, 10:47 AM
In regards to the Genesis, I believe it came in second place for Motor Trend's Car of the Year. Second to the Nissan GT-R.. If there were one category for sport and one category for luxury, Hyundai would have won car of the year for the luxury category..

ryannel2003
11-28-08, 11:15 AM
I'll agree with you on the LS Sal; not a bad looking car, but not particularly intriguing either. In that class, the XJ8 has the style all wrapped up. Especially the supercharged XJR with the large wheels and body colored grille. :drool:

thebigjimsho
11-28-08, 12:14 PM
Talking about the Lexus, I will say the latest LS, I like...

I~LUV~Caddys8792
11-28-08, 12:33 PM
The LS is pretty nice, certainly a lot more flamboyant than the LS430s, but the current Lexus that interests me most is the IS-F.

Jesda
11-28-08, 12:39 PM
Now if you want truly tasteless crap for mindless buyers, check out the BMW 7-series.

orconn
11-28-08, 01:16 PM
Now if you want truly tasteless crap for mindless buyers, check out the BMW 7-series.

I second that opinion. I like the way t he junior BMWs drive (even though they are still not up to my old Alfa's standard, but haven't gotten to the point embracing ugly for the sake of either handling or the prestige of BMW senior model ownership. If I needed to pick from todays crop of new cars I'd chose the XJ8 ....... decent performance, reliabilty, and a classically beautiful car. But this generation XJ8 has been a flop for Jaguar despite its' good points and its' making into the top ranks for quality and reliability.

Lord Cadillac
11-28-08, 01:21 PM
I've driven both the LS460 and 750Li quite a bit.. I prefer the Lexus because of the interior experience (where I spend 99.9% of my time when driving. :p). The BMW is much sportier, however. And it turns more heads - something most Cadillac owners can appreciate.

Night Wolf
11-29-08, 12:05 AM
All the cool BMW's are no longer made anymore.....

....but I suppose thats good cause within time it'll make them affordable for people like me to buy :)

I think I am starting to become partial to BMW :shhh:

Lord Cadillac
11-29-08, 12:38 AM
All the cool BMW's are no longer made anymore.....

....but I suppose thats good cause within time it'll make them affordable for people like me to buy :)

I think I am starting to become partial to BMW :shhh:
It's not difficult to be fond of BMW when almost everyone models their products after them...

Night Wolf
11-29-08, 12:45 AM
It's not difficult to be fond of BMW when almost everyone models their products after them...

There is a reason why though.... and I think I am just getting thru the surface of it.... what it took for me is a ~20-y/o worn out E30.... but that is just it.... it's almost 20 years old, and it's worn out in areas.... yet it is still completely competent.

Though from what I've been gathering, even on the BMW sites.... there is a very big difference between the "older" (80's and early-mid 90's) BMW's and "newer" (late 90's - current) BMW's...

thebigjimsho
11-29-08, 02:06 AM
Drive a 36 year old 2002. You'll know what pure handling is...


And i would consider a brand new M3 very cool...

I~LUV~Caddys8792
11-29-08, 10:26 AM
Now if you want truly tasteless crap for mindless buyers, check out the BMW 7-series.

Why'da say that? I think it's miles better than that gawdawful E65.



Though from what I've been gathering, even on the BMW sites.... there is a very big difference between the "older" (80's and early-mid 90's) BMW's and "newer" (late 90's - current) BMW's...

Oh totally. The '80s BMW's were the pure driver's machines...before they got super luxurious, and they had that "shark" look, then the late '90s BMW's were still great driver's machines, and they still had those clean, Germanic lines, but they got bigger, fatter and more luxurious, then the new Bimmers are at their heaviest, with their most contrived styling, and now they've got tons of electronics in them..and are extremely luxurious at the same time.

It's the same way with Merc too, in a sense. Back in the '70s, '80s, and early '90s, they were fairly simple cars (well atleast compared to current models), but they were known for their faultless engineering and impeccable build quality..."engineered like no other car" was their slogan, then in the mid '90s they stopped spending so much on R&D, cut "excessive" costs on their cars (for example, the 1993 S500 was about $99,000 new, by 1995, they were about $85,000) and focused their lessened R&D budget on electronic gadgets to compete with the influx of Japanese brands who brought a new wave of electronics to the luxury car scene...then they broke down more often because they weren't developed as fully, then it kinda marred the M-B name for many, which is why many switched to Lexus...it's an ironic viscious cycle. Thankfully, now their quality is on the up again.