: Tick, tick, tick...



Lord Cadillac
11-13-08, 01:44 PM
So it has come down to this for General Motors: 100 years of living, breathing American industrial and social history is on the precipice of total disaster, with the once-glittering corporate icon facing certain collapse if some sort of government financial aid package is not put together in the next 60 days.

Think about that for a moment.

The company that basically powered this nation through a century of progress and helped this country muster the strength to fight world wars - while contributing immeasurably to the fabric of America and the development of our vast middle class - is on the verge of filing bankruptcy.

Read more... (http://www.autoextremist.com/)

dkozloski
11-13-08, 02:03 PM
Bankruptcy is exactly what the company needs in order to restructure itself without the UAW. It couldn't happen any too soon. Currently the company can't throw off enough money to fund the pension plan and healthcare for it's retired employees. It can only get worse. Any option other than bankruptcy is doomed to failure. Think of the airline industry as the model for a recovery plan.

c5 rv
11-13-08, 02:33 PM
Unfortunately, I think Koz is about right. I think the government needs to give GM a loan on the condition of a reorganization under Chapter 11 protection. That may allow GM to restructure labor agreememtns and terminate the Buick, Pontiac, Saturn, Saab, and GMC brands in the U.S.

GailyBedight
11-13-08, 02:40 PM
Any money sent to the big 3 will allow them to meet payroll and pay creditors with the hope that sales will come around before the money runs out. Sounds like a gamble to me. Why is it that only Chrysler, Ford, and GM are asking for help? Is this a bail out of the companies, or the unions?

Ranger
11-13-08, 03:22 PM
Any restructuring will not be "without" the UAW. Chapter 11 will only give them the ability to renegotiate contracts. If the UAW where to refuse or not come to an agreement, the judge would impose a contract. The UAW is not going away though. Any bailout is nothing more than a bandaid to delay the inevitable.

Florian
11-13-08, 03:52 PM
Bankruptcy is exactly what the company needs in order to restructure itself without the UAW. It couldn't happen any too soon. Currently the company can't throw off enough money to fund the pension plan and healthcare for it's retired employees. It can only get worse. Any option other than bankruptcy is doomed to failure. Think of the airline industry as the model for a recovery plan.


+1 The only thing that will save GM is to fail. Bankruptcy protection will allow them to break all their shitty contracts that are currently in place and go from Red to Black much quicker. If you feed them dough, youre only prolonging the inevitable and we get the bill to boot. F-that.



F

Brett
11-13-08, 04:30 PM
interesting article:

http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/13/news/companies/gm_bankruptcy/index.htm?postversion=2008111305

MauiV
11-13-08, 05:45 PM
I am in a Union and live in an area with LOTS of Ford employees. My mother was married to a UAW worker and I dont find it one bit surprising that American automakers are going broke.

Lets say that Ford decides to tell 1st and 2nd shift on Friday that they have overtime on Saturday to build more Explorers. Well 3 hours into the day on Saturday when they run out of chassis, which are built somewhere else and brought in by truck, no more Explorers can be built. The employees are sent home and still collect 8 hours of overtime pay. On Moday morning there is also nothing for them to do because the plant that builds the chassis has just itself went back to work and wont have any shipped until the truck is full and it makes the few hour drive to the actual Explorer Assembly Plant.

Ford also flies Fokker 70 jets continuously between Detroit, here and Cincinnati. Im sure others goelsewhere too. Im not sure who or what they carry but Im damn near certain it cant be cost effective.

I have been on both sides of the union fence. I was management with the Railroad and I am a union member now. I am all for workers "getting theirs" but I also realise that without a company to work for its damn hard to collect a check.

Toyota also has a large pant not to far from here and I have a sister that works an office job there and all I know is that their pension plan and healthcare are a minute fraction of what Ford claims theirs is and the benefits are every bit as good.

Ranger
11-13-08, 06:27 PM
Lets say that Ford decides to tell 1st and 2nd shift on Friday that they have overtime on Saturday to build more Explorers. Well 3 hours into the day on Saturday when they run out of chassis, which are built somewhere else and brought in by truck, no more Explorers can be built. The employees are sent home and still collect 8 hours of overtime pay.
I have no problem with that. It's not the employee's fault that Ford can't plan accordingly before calling overtime. What I DO think is ridiculous is that when GM closes a plant, they have to pay laid off workers for 2 years. All they have to do is come in and sit in the cafeteria for 8 ours a day, drink coffee, read newspapers and watch TV. The other side of THAT coin is, THEY agreed to it in the first place.

MauiV
11-13-08, 06:43 PM
And like I said, its no surprise these companies hemorrhage money with shit like that going on.

I can be sent home after 2 hours of OT if I am no longer needed, or at any point if its holdover OT. I have no problem with that since I am getting paid for the time I was there. I like easy money as much as anyone but some stuff is just blatantly condoned theft.

When I worked on the management side I couldnt believe the things that the company allowed into the contracts. Our crews got paid MORE the longer they sat in the yard. What kind of sense does that make for a company whos job is to move freight from point to point. Shouldnt the motivation be to actually spend LESS time in the yard and more time on the move? There are many more examples of the same dumb shit allowed to go on and in some cases REWARDED.

2004ctsv
11-13-08, 10:29 PM
I wish I knew the answer.

But look at US Steel - profitable for the past 5 years.
The transition was painful but they made it.

Management gets what they can
Union takes what it can

If one side abdicates its responsibility, both sides fail.

In the 60's and 70's, management was weak.
A lot of bad decisions were made.
Many union members lost their jobs.
This area is still struggling with the effects.

I hope smarter people than me can figure this out.

Destroyer
11-13-08, 11:56 PM
Well these are hard times and perhaps extreme measures should be called upon: BAN ALL FOREIGN CARS (temporarily)!. Leave us with just GM's and Ford's.

MauiV
11-14-08, 12:31 AM
Well these are hard times and perhaps extreme measures should be called upon: BAN ALL FOREIGN CARS (temporarily)!. Leave us with just GM's and Ford's.

Good in theory except that there are a ton of "foreign" ars made right here in this country. Are those peoples jobs worth less just because they work for a company with competent managment that has made a quality product that people actually buy?

Brett
11-14-08, 08:48 AM
Not to mention that a policy like that could very well cause a lot of foreign countries to sell all of their dollars accelerating our plummet into Depression

Sandy
11-14-08, 10:13 AM
Look at the stupid mindset here!

Protect the foreign cars corporations, and let the American brands file bankruptcy. :thepan:

Brett
11-14-08, 10:20 AM
Who here has suggested "protecting" foreign car companies? Not shutting them down is not protection. Its not realistic to ban foreign cars anyway. The rest of the world could destruct us by de-leveraging their trillions of dollars held in reserve, which they would if we didnt buy their crap anymore. The main reason they hold those reserves is to prop up the dollar artificially, thats the price we pay for being a debtor nation.

dkozloski
11-14-08, 10:38 AM
After the stock market crash of 1929, a misguided Congress enacted the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act on imports. Within 6 months U.S. exports dropped by 50% as the foreign nations retaliated and one in four Americans had lost their jobs. You don't get out of a depression by killing foreign trade. You build foreign trade. Protectionism is the last thing you want. It sounds good to stop imports but in reality you finish off what little foreign trade you have left.

MauiV
11-14-08, 10:48 AM
The one benefit of a weak dollar is that now the cost of production in the US is lower on the global scale so the desire to ship jobs overseas slows down in theory.

American car makers lost an entire generation by producing utter crap from the mid-late 70's to lets say 1990ish. Todays 40 and under crowd grew up with new cars that were garbage. They listened to their parents and their friends parents bitch and moan about their car that was always broke down or that pieces were falling off of so they turned to imports and I cant say I blame them. I have owned foreign and domestic and I dont show loyalty to one brand over another. I buy a car because I like THAT car and Im not going to piss money away just to "support" a domestic company.

I live in a local economy where GM, Ford and Toyota employee a lot of people, not just in auto assembly plants but also in auto parts plants. Those plants make parts for a wide variety of companies, not just the "domestics" even though Toyota, Hyundai, Subaru, BMW, Mercedes, Honda and others build cars right here in this nation.

Jesda
11-14-08, 10:58 AM
Well these are hard times and perhaps extreme measures should be called upon: BAN ALL FOREIGN CARS (temporarily)!. Leave us with just GM's and Ford's.

Yes, remind people of how amazing American-branded cars are by forcing them into Aveos. All you would achieve is driving up the resale values of foreign-brand cars.

dkozloski
11-14-08, 11:25 AM
It never ceases to amaze me how little Americans know of their own history and how eager they are to repeat the same mistakes over and over.

Brett
11-14-08, 11:40 AM
A lack of understanding by the American Public as to how the World Economic system actually works is one of the main reasons the people havent thrown out our entire government. If people really realized how our government has been functioning for the last decade or so they would be appaled.

GailyBedight
11-14-08, 07:52 PM
"Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it." Unions are hanging on by way of political and financial influence. In the major Eastern cities they rule and will do whatever is necessary to hold onto their power. I've worked union and non-union. Was a member of the laborers local and the operating engineers local in New Jersey. In the 70's when the operating engineers went out on strike 7 people died before it was settled. A non union contractor was awarded a contract to repair many miles of I-95 in Rhode Island. They mobilized and after the first weekend every piece of equipment they had was inoperable.

I've worked in assembly plants as a contractor and as an equipment supplier. As a contractor the maintenance department had the right to review every scope of work and determine if they wanted to perform the work or let it go to a contractor - if there was overtime they took it, if it was dirty or difficult they didn't.

This bailout is payback for the support of the unions to the democrats. If this gets shoved down our throats then this is a major indicator of what will follow.

Let's bailout Detroit, Phoenix, California, K Mart, Macy's, Chuckie Cheese, Wal Mart - OOPS their profit is up 10%.

Where does it end? Whatever happened to free market and accountability.

Sorry for ranting but this really rubs me the wrong way.