: Stick or Auto



Somefun
11-09-08, 10:36 AM
Guy's I'm looking at ordering a new V but just not sure on the transmission? Should I go with Stick or the auto? I've read the auto is real good but just not sure how good it would be on the track down shifting when your coming to a turn? What do you guys think?

OldRoadDawg
11-09-08, 11:03 AM
Uh-h... maybe you should watch the video of Heinricy turning a 7:59 at Nurburgring with an auto.

I was talking with Andy Pilgrim on Fri morn at the CTS-V Driving Lab at Monticello, he firmly believes the auto is the way to go.

And both of those guys have a reasonable amount of time piloting the '09 CTS-V with an auto trans on the track. JMO

CVP33
11-09-08, 11:30 AM
Stick. How else am I gonna get to 200mph on the way to work? :thumbsup:

harrysstsv
11-09-08, 11:55 AM
Stick. How else am I gonna get to 200mph on the way to work? :thumbsup:

Hey, that`s good CVP but the manual is top speed rated 193 mph and auto is 175 mph.:thumbsup:

thebigjimsho
11-09-08, 01:32 PM
Guy's I'm looking at ordering a new V but just not sure on the transmission? Should I go with Stick or the auto? I've read the auto is real good but just not sure how good it would be on the track down shifting when your coming to a turn? What do you guys think?If you are a heel and toe master, get the manual. If you're not, get the auto! It rev matches for you. You still need to downshift at the right time and have the car properly settled so it won't drive the car for you like the robotic GT-R. But it shifts wonderfully...

Somefun
11-09-08, 06:05 PM
Yeah I was thinking the stick also....193 just sounds good!!! I just don't think I could buy a HOT ROD like this with the automatic.. Hey do you guy's now what the no lift shift is all about?

thebigjimsho
11-09-08, 09:54 PM
I just don't think I could buy a HOT ROD like this with the automatic...Like Burger King, you can have it your way. But I don't see people bitching to Ferrari about having 2 pedals and paddles.

CopperSunburstCTS
11-10-08, 10:23 PM
Yeah I was thinking the stick also....193 just sounds good!!! I just don't think I could buy a HOT ROD like this with the automatic.. Hey do you guy's now what the no lift shift is all about?

While your foot is pressed on the accelerator, press the clutch in and the electronic engine controls hold the RPM for a second (instead of winding up wildly) while you shift so there is no loss in the transition. Even with this super cool feature the automatic is still as fast or faster. I do miss my 5-speed manual in my 03 CTS, but for a daily driver, it got old real fast, but i do need a weekend manual car, it just won't be my daily driver.

V-Love
11-12-08, 06:55 PM
Hey, that`s good CVP but the manual is top speed rated 193 mph and auto is 175 mph.:thumbsup:

Thought it was 191. Manual feels great. After tracking with the rubber shifter in my 05, the 09 is unreal. I think I'll be faster with the manual. If not, I have work to do. I can't imagine the auto being faster with no lift shifts done properly. Besides, It just felt so right at home on the track. I never drove the auto but will test one(mabey).

thebigjimsho
11-12-08, 07:23 PM
Thought it was 191. Manual feels great. After tracking with the rubber shifter in my 05, the 09 is unreal. I think I'll be faster with the manual. If not, I have work to do. I can't imagine the auto being faster with no lift shifts done properly. Besides, It just felt so right at home on the track. I never drove the auto but will test one(mabey).How's your heel and toe? If you master that and drive the manual enough, you could be faster(maybe).

caddynoob
11-12-08, 11:00 PM
I am having a hard time deciding between the two. The automatic will probably have a better resale value. The automatic is also faster at slower speed due to more aggressive gearing.

I will probably get myself a BMW 135 convertible in addition, if it turns out that I miss the stick shift too much.

Kadonny
11-13-08, 10:17 AM
Auto for sure. Ask anyone who has driven the car, they all (including Heinricy) champion the auto.

caddynoob
11-13-08, 10:55 AM
Another factor for me is the lack of handbrake. Call me old school but I think the lack of a proper handbrake compromises the safety, especially in the case of uphill start. Unless GM has borrowed the up hill assist feature form Subaru where the brake is automatically applied for you.

asabase
11-13-08, 10:59 AM
Uphill starts are easy in an auto though. Only two pedals to push at once instead of three. You don't need a handbrake to act as a brake pedal.

caddynoob
11-13-08, 11:04 AM
Uphill starts are easy in an auto though. Only two pedals to push at once instead of three. You don't need a handbrake to act as a brake pedal.

Exactly. I am almost certain that I am going with the automatic. Most likely automatic without sunroof, just like the one ran the ring in under 8 minutes.

jvp
11-13-08, 11:36 AM
Exactly. I am almost certain that I am going with the automatic. Most likely automatic without sunroof, just like the one ran the ring in under 8 minutes.

For what it's worth, if you know how to drive a stick, you don't need the handbrake for "uphill starts" either. The clutch will do the job of momentarily holding the vehicle in place (though doing this for an extended period of time will roast the clutch). The point about the lack of a "proper" handbrake seems... silly. More an excuse to get an auto.

Stop watching JohnH's lap with the auto and saying "If he could do it with the auto, it MUST BE GOOD!" That's not actually true. Watch his post-run interview. He used the auto during his run because he was USING the auto all week at the Ring. He was comfortable with the auto by that point. He wasn't about to trade up to the manual and lose any advantage he might have due to comfort with the vehicle. And he admits to this openly in said interview.

Had he been practicing with the stick all week, he could have easily ripped off a similar (if not identical) lap time with the manual. He's just that good a driver.

If you want to ride in your car: get an auto.
If you want to DRIVE your car: get a stick.

jas

asabase
11-13-08, 11:36 AM
Oh, the parking brake is foot operated on the manual? I hate when cars are like that.

jvp
11-13-08, 11:37 AM
Oh, the parking brake is foot operated on the manual? I hate when cars are like that.

Electronic push-button on the center console.

jas

thebigjimsho
11-13-08, 12:25 PM
For what it's worth, if you know how to drive a stick, you don't need the handbrake for "uphill starts" either. The clutch will do the job of momentarily holding the vehicle in place (though doing this for an extended period of time will roast the clutch). The point about the lack of a "proper" handbrake seems... silly. More an excuse to get an auto.

Stop watching JohnH's lap with the auto and saying "If he could do it with the auto, it MUST BE GOOD!" That's not actually true. Watch his post-run interview. He used the auto during his run because he was USING the auto all week at the Ring. He was comfortable with the auto by that point. He wasn't about to trade up to the manual and lose any advantage he might have due to comfort with the vehicle. And he admits to this openly in said interview.

Had he been practicing with the stick all week, he could have easily ripped off a similar (if not identical) lap time with the manual. He's just that good a driver.

If you want to ride in your car: get an auto.
If you want to DRIVE your car: get a stick.

jasAnd Andy Pilgrim prefers the automatic. And I don't care so much about having a 3rd pedal as I do full control over shifting the vehicle. That, to me, is most important...

jvp
11-13-08, 01:55 PM
And I don't care so much about having a 3rd pedal as I do full control over shifting the vehicle. That, to me, is most important...

If that were the case... you'd get the manual. :-)

jas

RightTurn
11-13-08, 02:11 PM
How about "Get the one YOU want; it's YOUR money." Living in a large metro area with traffic from hell, the auto is the only way to go IMO.

V-Love
11-13-08, 02:43 PM
How about "Get the one YOU want; it's YOUR money." Living in a large metro area with traffic from hell, the auto is the only way to go IMO.

Sounds about right.

thebigjimsho
11-13-08, 03:30 PM
How about "Get the one YOU want; it's YOUR money." Living in a large metro area with traffic from hell, the auto is the only way to go IMO.Q3iorVlGPR4

Karaya Eins
11-13-08, 03:58 PM
Does anyone think they can get a car around that track in 8:00 min? Andy Pilgrim told me his choice was the Auto. He had driven it against an M5 and was a good 7 mph faster on an track. I like to shift for myself, and also know that a paddle shifted SMG M5 is a quicker way. It was market demands in the US that put a stick in it. Stroke you ego or salve its inadequacies, as you see fit. I am in counseling to figure it out.

thebigjimsho
11-13-08, 04:24 PM
Does anyone think they can get a car around that track in 8:00 min? Andy Pilgrim told me his choice was the Auto. He had driven it against an M5 and was a good 7 mph faster on an track. I like to shift for myself, and also know that a paddle shifted SMG M5 is a quicker way. It was market demands in the US that put a stick in it. Stroke you ego or salve its inadequacies, as you see fit. I am in counseling to figure it out.:yup:

jvp
11-13-08, 04:29 PM
I like to shift for myself, and also know that a paddle shifted SMG M5 is a quicker way. It was market demands in the US that put a stick in it.

It was market demand that brought the stick to the M5 because BMW's SMG sucks and was, and still is, universally hated by driving enthusiasts.


Stroke you ego or salve its inadequacies, as you see fit.

:lol:

How about wanting to be more involved with driving?

You can ride in your car or you can drive your car. Which would you rather do?

jas

thebigjimsho
11-13-08, 04:38 PM
It was market demand that brought the stick to the M5 because BMW's SMG sucks and was, and still is, universally hated by driving enthusiasts.



:lol:

How about wanting to be more involved with driving?

You can ride in your car or you can drive your car. Which would you rather do?

jasYou sound like me...before I drove the automatic '09...

RightTurn
11-13-08, 05:24 PM
You sound like me...before I drove the automatic '09...

You can leave your hat on. :yup:

CVP33
11-13-08, 06:48 PM
Hey, that`s good CVP but the manual is top speed rated 193 mph and auto is 175 mph.:thumbsup:

:lies: Nitrous

gotapex
11-13-08, 06:50 PM
It was market demand that brought the stick to the M5 because BMW's SMG sucks and was, and still is, universally hated by driving enthusiasts.

jas


Is it? The vast majority of M5 and M6 are purchased in SMG and the vast majority of the enthusiast owners on the forums across the internet also own the SMG. Looking at the cars come in for performance mods, again, SMG cars clearly outnumber the 6-speed.

The difference here though is the BMW S85 engine has a relatively narrow powerband, and thus worked better with the closer ratio SMG. The closer ratio along with the faster shifting made it the better performing choice. This remains the case even after BMW relented and allowed the 6-speed manual to fully disengage traction control (it wasn't that whay during release).

While some people do prefer the 6-speed for driving enjoyment or tradition, it's clearly the performance loser.

caddynoob
11-14-08, 01:01 AM
Some more thoughts on this...

- F1/SMG type transmission has performance advantage on the track. Though that doesn't mean it's better around town. The shifting is not always all that smooth.

- Plenty of performance cars comes with automatic only. McLaren SLR, IS-F, and the entire AMG line up. Before PDK, 997 Turbo auto was also slightly quicker than the stick to 60mph and 1/4 mile IIRC.

- On the 09 CTS-V, both auto and manual transmission are well implemented. So, both are very good choice. There is no clear bad choice here per se.

While I am leaning towards the automatic after weighting out the pros and cons. I still think that I will feel more "connected" to the car with the stick shift.

HPCC
11-14-08, 02:11 AM
...Stop watching JohnH's lap with the auto and saying "If he could do it with the auto, it MUST BE GOOD!" That's not actually true. Watch his post-run interview. He used the auto during his run because he was USING the auto all week at the Ring. He was comfortable with the auto by that point. He wasn't about to trade up to the manual and lose any advantage he might have due to comfort with the vehicle. And he admits to this openly in said interview...He also said they shot video of his colleague trying to maintain pace behind him--he's reportedly no slouch but they said he was much busier. Wonder why that video has never been released? Or has it? Just wondering.

Kadonny
11-14-08, 09:21 AM
It was market demand that brought the stick to the M5 because BMW's SMG sucks and was, and still is, universally hated by driving enthusiasts.



:lol:

How about wanting to be more involved with driving?

You can ride in your car or you can drive your car. Which would you rather do?

jas


Broken record with your RIDE and DRIVE stuff. You like the manual, we get it. Others like the auto and guess what, they will DRIVE the car too. Move on please. Thanks.

It's your car, pick the transmission that best suits you. End of story. One will probably not be far superior to the other.

RightTurn
11-14-08, 12:17 PM
^^ :yeah: :golf clap:

thebigjimsho
11-14-08, 12:55 PM
Broken record with your RIDE and DRIVE stuff. You like the manual, we get it. Others like the auto and guess what, they will DRIVE the car too. Move on please. Thanks.

It's your car, pick the transmission that best suits you. End of story. One will probably not be far superior to the other.Quoted for truth.

thebigjimsho
11-14-08, 12:56 PM
^^ :yeah: :golf clap:Quoted for hotness.

Krug Ford
11-14-08, 02:27 PM
I liked driving the Auto.. But a sportscar in my mind has to be a manual.. The burn outs in a manual are unreal..

CIWS
11-14-08, 09:15 PM
I liked driving the Auto.. But a sportscar in my mind has to be a manual.. The burn outs in a manual are unreal..

The auto seemed to "sportscar" the ring just fine and set a record in the process. If I want a real Sportscar with power I would buy a Z06 instead, but the CTS-V is luxury performance model, not sportscar. Then again you don't or haven't owned a :v: have you Mr. Pratt ?

ba83
11-14-08, 11:06 PM
I would go with auto
my reasons
I dont track the car and auto is plenty fast
It would be hard to live with a manual every day, 80% cars I have owned so far were manual and it gets old but I still love to some degree
If I was buying a Z06 there is a reason for 6 speed but for a fast luxury sedan auto is the way to go. Look at M5 , E55
It would have been great if they made the trans like the IS F I recently test drove. Paddle shifts 0.1 seconds

Karaya Eins
11-16-08, 11:05 AM
After several days of psychological counseling, including but not limited to electro convulsive therapy and an intervention by a renowned cult deprogrammer, I have decided on a manual transmission and the big sun roof.

1. In his Garage 419 interview Heinricey said he preferred the stick.

2. i like a sunroof.

3. The weight I save on the stick will compensate for the extra weight of the sunroof.

4. It is a street car and I want to drive around town with the roof open.

5. The sun roof actually hurts the depreciation when leasing. My GF said so and she sold investments for Hancock for years and is smart on this stuff and hot and her hotness makes her smarter because she explains this sort of thing to me when we are shopping for lingere or doing other things of sexual nature to offer me positive reinforcement when I agree with her.

6. I am smart enough to realize that there are other limits to my abilites that will prevent me from lapping the Nurburgring in less than eight minutes. (I figured this out on my own, though I did run my reasoning by the GF and did get rewarded for my perspecacity):bulging:

7. Because I want to.:yawn:

thebigjimsho
11-16-08, 03:56 PM
^^^tehehehe^^^

CIWS
11-16-08, 04:24 PM
7. Because I want to.:yawn:

:thumbsup: best reason to.

JBsZ06
11-16-08, 09:51 PM
Love the new CTS V and as an owner of a 08 C6 M6 Z51 and an 08 AWD FE2 DI CTS I'd have to say with the new v series I'd opt for the automatic tranny.

Technology today is just too dam impressive .

Manuals cool but I'd opt the new V series with the automatic tranny.

JMO and Great vehicle either way.

JB

Dark SSide
11-17-08, 01:51 AM
I'm going with the auto because its going to be a daily driver unless bad weather. Also I have clients in the car all the time, but more importantly because my wife says I HAVE to get the auto.

caddynoob
11-17-08, 04:34 AM
Here is the link to the Garage 419 interview

http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=fB8ibDrfmA8

Jump to 7:28 for the auto/stick question.

JimmyH
11-18-08, 12:41 PM
And Andy Pilgrim prefers the automatic. And I don't care so much about having a 3rd pedal as I do full control over shifting the vehicle. That, to me, is most important...

You're a girl.

As for the lack of a handbrake, I am fine with this. Other than creating artificial over-steer in the snow, the only other function of a hand brake is wasting space on the console. It's so much cleaner, nicer, and spacious without a big-ass lever in the way.

And I am sure 98% of would be faster with an automatic. But I would think y'all could appreciate the fact that there is way more to this car than being fast. A manual is more fun.

caddynoob
11-18-08, 03:21 PM
As far as lacking proper hand brake goes. If you have ever driven a stick in San Francisco or somewhere really hilly. Maybe you will think otherwise about it.

Razorecko
11-18-08, 08:45 PM
^ i'm new to the forums and am seriously looking into the cts-v. Now off hand are you guys saying that even the manual tranny version will have a footbrake instead of a handbrake??

oh and my list of cars...

'08 Grand Cherokee SRT8
'97 Toyota Supra TT
'93 Toyota Mr2 Turbo

caddynoob
11-18-08, 09:07 PM
^ i'm new to the forums and am seriously looking into the cts-v. Now off hand are you guys saying that even the manual tranny version will have a footbrake instead of a handbrake??

oh and my list of cars...

'08 Grand Cherokee SRT8
'97 Toyota Supra TT
'93 Toyota Mr2 Turbo

To the best of my knowledge, yes. Some manufactures will redesign the center console to have a proper hand brake for their manual model. The Acura CL being an example of that.

Maybe I am old school, but I think that's an important safety feature. Especially in my last condo. Where I have to wait for the garage door to open on a rather steep uphill ramp when I get out.

jvp
11-18-08, 09:17 PM
^ i'm new to the forums and am seriously looking into the cts-v. Now off hand are you guys saying that even the manual tranny version will have a footbrake instead of a handbrake??

There is no footbrake on either car. It's a little push-button thing in the center console. Go here:

http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/MediaNav/styleId=101066439/firstNav=Gallery#

Click on "Interior" and then find the fifth picture. The little button just south of the shifter is the parking brake. It's in the same position in the manual.

jas

Razorecko
11-18-08, 09:23 PM
wow i'd be realllly disappointed if they put in a footbrake for a manual trans car.

thebigjimsho
11-18-08, 11:45 PM
wow i'd be realllly disappointed if they put in a footbrake for a manual trans car.They did it for V1...

Razorecko
11-19-08, 12:57 AM
^ I didnt know - Damn ! so than i wont be able to drift it ?!?













jk.

CIWS
11-19-08, 08:25 AM
^ I didnt know - Damn ! so than i wont be able to drift it ?!?

Just increase the Heroin dose.

Kadonny
11-19-08, 10:54 AM
As far as lacking proper hand brake goes. If you have ever driven a stick in San Francisco or somewhere really hilly. Maybe you will think otherwise about it.

I have driven a stick all my life here in the rolling hills of Pennsylvania. All the times I have sat at a stop on an uphill (many very steep uphills) I have never used a handbrake to hold the hill. In fact, every night when I had my 06 CTS-V I drove home where I faced a stop sign on a very steep hill. You learn how to work the clutch and brake to hold the car.

Razorecko
11-20-08, 10:33 PM
^ yep same here. I know some manuals incorporate a hill anti-roll where when the car knows its in an incline it will hold the position long enough to engage the clutch and get moving.

thebigjimsho
11-21-08, 01:01 AM
^ I didnt know - Damn ! so than i wont be able to drift it ?!? You don't need a hand brake to drift in the V...

JEM
11-21-08, 05:09 AM
^ i'm new to the forums and am seriously looking into the cts-v. Now off hand are you guys saying that even the manual tranny version will have a footbrake instead of a handbrake??

The V has the electrically-operated parking brake with a console-mounted on/off toggle, doesn't it?

Yeah, I hated the footbrake on my '91 SHO so badly that it now wears an 1999 Saturn handle.

The one ill effect of the Stoptech brakes on my M5 is that the parking-brake shoes don't seem to grip the aluminum drums in the hats well enough to actually hold the car unless you're really hauling on the lever.

JimmyH
11-21-08, 05:14 PM
I thought I read that the 09 V has a hill-holding feature for both manual and auto.

And you should not need to use the parking brake anyway. You should stay on the brake until it is time to move. And (if ever so briefly) blip the throttle while still holding the brakes and bring the clutch pedal up to just before slip. If you do it right, you can hold it there (while burnishing the clutch of course.)

Razorecko
11-21-08, 07:44 PM
Just threw down a deposit on a black on black cts-v manual...first manual order they've had-lol

CSX
11-22-08, 04:22 AM
Maybe it's the purist in me. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that I don't live in a hilly area and/or inclement weather. Or perhaps it's because everything I own has a manual transmission. But there's no way I will get a CTS-V with anything put a proper six-speed with three pedals on the floor. Even if the auto proves to be the better performer, it simply cannot provide that "connection" I feel with a car that has a manual transmissions.

thebigjimsho
11-22-08, 12:34 PM
Maybe it's the purist in me. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that I don't live in a hilly area and/or inclement weather. Or perhaps it's because everything I own has a manual transmission. But there's no way I will get a CTS-V with anything put a proper six-speed with three pedals on the floor. Even if the auto proves to be the better performer, it simply cannot provide that "connection" I feel with a car that has a manual transmissions.It's a good thing F1 drivers don't need any "connection" to their race cars...

CSX
11-22-08, 06:42 PM
It's a good thing F1 drivers don't need any "connection" to their race cars...

Yes, good thing, especially since purpose-built race cars have so much in common world-class sport sedans.

I'm sure 99% of all CTS-V owners do not hold professional race credentials, and therefore, are most are far less concerned with cutting down lap times by that last 1/10th of a second, and far more concerned with "the drive". And to me, that driving experience simply can't be enjoyed without rowing my own gears.

Sure, it may be far easier to nail the perfect downshift in an F430 using Ferrari's F1 gearbox...pull the paddle, let the computer do the work for you...but I feel that it would be infinitely more satisfying (albeit more difficult) to execute using your left foot and right hand working in unison.

But, as I said, I'm a purist, and I'm ok with being one of the (very) few who orders their V with a manual tranny.

thebigjimsho
11-22-08, 11:16 PM
Yes, good thing, especially since purpose-built race cars have so much in common world-class sport sedans.

I'm sure 99% of all CTS-V owners do not hold professional race credentials, and therefore, are most are far less concerned with cutting down lap times by that last 1/10th of a second, and far more concerned with "the drive". And to me, that driving experience simply can't be enjoyed without rowing my own gears.

Sure, it may be far easier to nail the perfect downshift in an F430 using Ferrari's F1 gearbox...pull the paddle, let the computer do the work for you...but I feel that it would be infinitely more satisfying (albeit more difficult) to execute using your left foot and right hand working in unison.

But, as I said, I'm a purist, and I'm ok with being one of the (very) few who orders their V with a manual tranny.So...3 pedals to be a purist, OK...

JEM
11-22-08, 11:56 PM
My view: there's automatics that work with the car, and automatics that work against the car.

The biggest weaknesses are jerky behavior off the line and part-throttle kickdown reluctance (which I think might be CAFE-mileage-tuning related; they want the car to stay in the highest gear possible on the EPA rollers.) Some cars have torque converters that are too tight, a few too loose, some too quick to go into lockup (and too resistant to unlocking.)

The Germans seem to have a lot of trouble getting things right -their 'tiptronic', 'steptronic' etc controls are sluggish crap, BMW's 'steptronic' shifters started working backward around 2001, and they seem to like second-gear starts - though oddly enough I once drove a '98 M3 automatic that worked beautifully. I've driven Falcons in Australia that used the same ZF 6HP26 transmission as a BMW 550i - but the shifter works right and the kickdown behavior is better.

That said, the more torque an engine's got, the easier it is to get the engine-transmission mating right, and I'm not a three-pedal purist.

darjae
11-23-08, 12:13 AM
I'm getting the auto cause that's what the dealer ordered :) stick otherwise, wife-be-damned :)

caddynoob
11-23-08, 12:27 AM
Yes, good thing, especially since purpose-built race cars have so much in common world-class sport sedans.

I'm sure 99% of all CTS-V owners do not hold professional race credentials, and therefore, are most are far less concerned with cutting down lap times by that last 1/10th of a second, and far more concerned with "the drive". And to me, that driving experience simply can't be enjoyed without rowing my own gears.

Sure, it may be far easier to nail the perfect downshift in an F430 using Ferrari's F1 gearbox...pull the paddle, let the computer do the work for you...but I feel that it would be infinitely more satisfying (albeit more difficult) to execute using your left foot and right hand working in unison.

But, as I said, I'm a purist, and I'm ok with being one of the (very) few who orders their V with a manual tranny.

Shifting yourself can be a lot of fun, but I think it depends on what you gonna use the car for. If I am not gonna have another car with stick shift in my garage, I would opt for the manual without second thoughts. I just love the vibration that I get from the shifter.

Vrocks
11-23-08, 01:21 AM
I like a manual because of the added feel but I don't think a car like the V really needs one. The only reason why manual transmissions stuck around was because autos weren't able to handle the high horsepower or track usage (heat), and they only had 4-5 gears for a long time. Now they shift faster than a human can and we have the option of overriding the computer.

The only thing I don't like about an auto is, the locking and unlocking of the torque converter. I figure it's necessary for fuel economy ratings... if there was a mod that I'd like to have, it would be to change the way the torque converter locks and unlocks.

CSX
11-23-08, 03:29 AM
So...3 pedals to be a purist, OK...

In my opinion, yes. But as they say...to each his own. :)

CSX
11-23-08, 03:33 AM
Shifting yourself can be a lot of fun, but I think it depends on what you gonna use the car for. If I am not gonna have another car with stick shift in my garage, I would opt for the manual without second thoughts. I just love the vibration that I get from the shifter.

Like I said, pretty much everything I own is manual (with the exception of the Mazda sedan, but that was given to me, it wasn't my choice), and with the exception of having in auto in a truck, I foresee it staying that way. The V will be a daily driver...a stick just makes the commute that much more interesting. :thumbsup:

Razorecko
11-23-08, 11:59 AM
^ I agree - thats why oddly i'm the first person to put a deposit for a manual cts-v. I will be using it as my daily driver and although it isnt much fun sitting in traffic with a stick it is alot more enjoyable and keeps me awake and aware. Not too mention i believe it will be a few more years untill they perfect the auto/dual clutch trans to take high hp/tq abuse. This would be a first year model with a brand new engineered high hp auto trans from gm. That in itself to me is asking for issues. I am more than sure if there are any tsb's/recalls it will probally be for the auto tranny. Not too mention more than one magazine/test has show that the auto trans isn't downshifting as well as it can....Oh and it takes up another additional cooler in the front of the vehicle.

onelove
11-24-08, 08:12 PM
The main reason why AMG products have never, ever been on my shopping list is because you can't get them with manual trannies. IMO, there is nothing like the feel of a perfectly executed downshift going into a turn or the all too familiar 1-2 powershift in a manual trans car with lots of power.

I understand from a purely academic standpoint, new autos and computerized manual trannies can offer better performance than a traditional manual, but I don't care. I'll put up with the hassle of shifting in traffic (and where I live we have the 2nd worst traffic in the nation) just for the smile a true manual puts on my face when I get a chance to let the V stretch her legs.

As impressive as the auto was with Andy at the wheel (I got to ride with him at a Caddy event) when I finallhy trade up to a V2, I will be looking at manuals.

thebigjimsho
11-24-08, 09:04 PM
kaka.

CadV
11-28-08, 07:07 PM
Getting a STS-V with an auto made me miss the manual in my old CTS-V. I miss the 25/26 mpg in 6th gear and the responsiveness.

I am getting the stick.

thebigjimsho
11-28-08, 08:56 PM
Getting a STS-V with an auto made me miss the manual in my old CTS-V. I miss the 25/26 mpg in 6th gear and the responsiveness.

I am getting the stick.The auto in the CTS-V is a far cry from the one in the STS-V. I'd suggest a test drive first. And this is from a staunch supporter of manual transmissions...

V-Love
11-30-08, 01:17 AM
I would like to see the stick vs manual on the 1/4 mile. As soon as we get some more delivered, lets get those time slips posted.

caddynoob
11-30-08, 03:01 AM
My money is on the auto.

But objective performance figures and subjective fun factor are two different things. The manual is probably more rewarding to drive.

Caddyscat
11-30-08, 03:37 AM
We're getting both. Wife's getting the auto in crystal red. Im getting the Manual in thunder gray.

There's no foot brake in the manual, it's button operated hill assist. Don't any of you read motor trend? it's funny watching you guys go around in circles. Im waiting for someone else to ask when AWD is coming out. Again.

thebigjimsho
11-30-08, 04:08 AM
We're getting both. Wife's getting the auto in crystal red. Im getting the Manual in thunder gray.

There's no foot brake in the manual, it's button operated hill assist. Don't any of you read motor trend? it's funny watching you guys go around in circles. Im waiting for someone else to ask when AWD is coming out. Again.Well, someone has money and the ego to match.

Luna.
12-02-08, 02:56 AM
My money is on the auto.

But objective performance figures and subjective fun factor are two different things. The manual is probably more rewarding to drive.

Wow...I'm definitely missing something if the auto takes the manual in the 1/4 mile. :hmm:

lawfive
12-02-08, 03:38 AM
We're getting both. Wife's getting the auto in crystal red. Im getting the Manual in thunder gray.

There's no foot brake in the manual, it's button operated hill assist. Don't any of you read motor trend? it's funny watching you guys go around in circles. Im waiting for someone else to ask when AWD is coming out. Again.

:wes::gnome:

Hard to read anything when we're busy going around in circles.

Might want to rethink the color choice: Tony tells me that there's an Arrogant Puce coming mid-year.

caddynoob
12-02-08, 10:27 AM
Wow...I'm definitely missing something if the auto takes the manual in the 1/4 mile. :hmm:

The Auto has slight advantage on overall gear ratio in the first 3 gears. Car and Driver also got better numbers from the Auto.

It is actually not all that uncommon. I think 977 Turbo auto (non PDK version) and even tunedToyota Supra with 4spd auto are also examples where the auto is as fast or faster than stick shift.

Luna.
12-02-08, 03:55 PM
The Auto has slight advantage on overall gear ratio in the first 3 gears. Car and Driver also got better numbers from the Auto.

It is actually not all that uncommon. I think 977 Turbo auto (non PDK version) and even tunedToyota Supra with 4spd auto are also examples where the auto is as fast or faster than stick shift.

The slight gearing advantage, which admittedly I haven't calculated, as manuals often have gearing advantages over their auto counterparts, has to overcome weight and the fact that auto transmissions aren't direct drive. Wow...these kinds of exceptions just blow my mind... :confused:

caddynoob
12-02-08, 05:32 PM
The slight gearing advantage, which admittedly I haven't calculated, as manuals often have gearing advantages over their auto counterparts, has to overcome weight and the fact that auto transmissions aren't direct drive. Wow...these kinds of exceptions just blow my mind... :confused:

Many automatic transmission also lock up in all gears except first. IS-F and AMG models comes to mind. I believe this is also the case for the 09 CTS-V. In first gear, traction is the issue rather than power.

Keep in mind that we are only talking about upshifts here. On the track, it is a different story. Incidentally, the CTS-V does pretty well on the track with its automatic transmission as well.

Luna.
12-02-08, 06:46 PM
Many automatic transmission also lock up in all gears except first. IS-F and AMG models comes to mind. I believe this is also the case for the 09 CTS-V. In first gear, traction is the issue rather than power.

Thanks--I didn't know they locked up in all gears but first. I'm old school, as I thought they didn't lock up until, say, 4th gear or so.

The biggest issue for me is the weight though. Is it something like 100 lbs more? I thought I read that somewhere, but I could be way off. In any case, if it's about that, good lord---that's a lot of additional weight to push down the road, especially when the manual doesn't have that weight disadvantage.

caddynoob
12-02-08, 08:14 PM
Thanks--I didn't know they locked up in all gears but first. I'm old school, as I thought they didn't lock up until, say, 4th gear or so.

The biggest issue for me is the weight though. Is it something like 100 lbs more? I thought I read that somewhere, but I could be way off. In any case, if it's about that, good lord---that's a lot of additional weight to push down the road, especially when the manual doesn't have that weight disadvantage.

100lb is a less than 2.5% increase compared to the manual (4200lb vs 4300lb). I wouldn't worry too much about the weight increase. The weight added by the sunroof is a different story. I think it's also close to 88lb, but that will probably change the center of gravity quite a bit.

JEM
12-02-08, 08:30 PM
Thanks--I didn't know they locked up in all gears but first. I'm old school, as I thought they didn't lock up until, say, 4th gear or so.

Torque-converter lockup isn't exactly a performance feature...

Poorman08
12-02-08, 09:21 PM
Stick is the way to go, I've driven in traffic with uphills and everything sure it's a bit of a PITA but you get the real pleasure when you're crusing freely and shifting thru the gears. No paddle shift automatic would give the same feeling as a car with a clutch and a gearbox :cool2:

thebigjimsho
12-02-08, 11:17 PM
This is one instance where when having the fastest sedan with the most power, I want the fastest version available. So if that's the automatic, that's what I want...

CSX
12-02-08, 11:26 PM
The Auto has slight advantage on overall gear ratio in the first 3 gears. Car and Driver also got better numbers from the Auto.

It is actually not all that uncommon. I think 977 Turbo auto (non PDK version) and even tunedToyota Supra with 4spd auto are also examples where the auto is as fast or faster than stick shift.

Most C5 and C6 Corvette owners I've spoken too also say that auto 'Vettes put down quicker times than their manual counterparts as well.

CadV
12-04-08, 01:37 AM
Most C5 and C6 Corvette owners I've spoken too also say that auto 'Vettes put down quicker times than their manual counterparts as well.

I remember that talk and ever person I raced with an auto I beat with a manual.

With the car being the same there is no way an auto will beat a manual if the driver is good.

gotapex
12-04-08, 01:57 AM
I remember that talk and ever person I raced with an auto I beat with a manual.

With the car being the same there is no way an auto will beat a manual if the driver is good.

It's possible with a turbocharged vehicle. There's no boost loss between gears with the automatic, and you can also brake launch to build boost from launch. That's why the Porsche 997 Turbo is faster in auto than manual.

thebigjimsho
12-04-08, 02:33 PM
I remember that talk and ever person I raced with an auto I beat with a manual.

With the car being the same there is no way an auto will beat a manual if the driver is good.Hey Mr. Hypothetical, when are automatic and manual versions EVER equal??

Cadillac Tony
12-04-08, 03:17 PM
Here's some more fuel for the fire:

Most of the magazines have a rule in their testing procedure that requires them to test manual transmission cars by lifting off the gas, pressing the clutch, then reapplying the gas. I assume this rule is to prevent testers from achieving unrealistic times by "speed shifting", which would not be representative of real world acceleration. I always assumed that cars like the ZR-1, Cobalt SS and CTS-V would be tested using the "No-Lift Shift" feature, since GM designed this feature for use and would not be considered "abuse". I saw a writeup in Car & Driver this month on the Cobalt SS however, that specifically mentioned that they did NOT use the No-Lift Shift in the test due to the rules. Here's the quote:


Had we used the no-lift shift feature built into the Cobalt SS, it would have been quicker than the Mazda through the quarter-mile, but our test procedure requires using the clutch pedal and lifting off the throttle to shift.

So the question now becomes "Are the 0-60 times for the 6MT in the magazines using the No-Lift Shift or not?"

Ketzer
12-04-08, 04:22 PM
:stirpot: :tisk:

Cadillac Tony
12-04-08, 04:26 PM
:lildevil:

b4z
12-04-08, 04:42 PM
That's just dumb. I understand using the clutch and lifting because that is the intended design of most manual transmissions and will lead to longevity.
But when a company includes a feature specifically designed to not lift, why wouldn't you use it.
Car and Driver's decision is just dumb.

Maybe they should test all automatic transmission cars by lifting before each gear change? LOL.

Cadillac Tony
12-04-08, 04:53 PM
On one hand I see C&D's point- they're trying to compare the strength of the engine and drivetrain on equal footing by not using the NLS, but on the other hand I agree with you and think it's dumb. The feature was built into the car for the purpose of improving acceleration, so not using it is like taking the belt off the ZR-1's Supercharger to make it "fair" against the Ferrari. :lol:

Motor Trend is the only one that mentions the NLS in their testing, and posted a 4.1 0-60 for both transmissions. Looks like when it's all said and done, both are equal and it comes down to driver skill.

MWM
12-04-08, 07:29 PM
If I were leaning Auto, I'd prolly pick up a CLK63 Black Series. It's a better car. What makes the V cool is that you can get a stick (and it's not detrimental to the overall design, like the stick on the E60 M5 was).

CadV
12-05-08, 01:09 AM
Hey Mr. Hypothetical, when are automatic and manual versions EVER equal??

I said with the car being the same as in same CAR.

But you are right auto and manuals are not equal hahaha

Luna.
12-05-08, 04:16 AM
Here's some more fuel for the fire:

Most of the magazines have a rule in their testing procedure that requires them to test manual transmission cars by lifting off the gas, pressing the clutch, then reapplying the gas. I assume this rule is to prevent testers from achieving unrealistic times by "speed shifting", which would not be representative of real world acceleration. I always assumed that cars like the ZR-1, Cobalt SS and CTS-V would be tested using the "No-Lift Shift" feature, since GM designed this feature for use and would not be considered "abuse". I saw a writeup in Car & Driver this month on the Cobalt SS however, that specifically mentioned that they did NOT use the No-Lift Shift in the test due to the rules. Here's the quote:



So the question now becomes "Are the 0-60 times for the 6MT in the magazines using the No-Lift Shift or not?"

LOL Tony...you are so very evil... :)

thebigjimsho
12-05-08, 10:08 AM
I said with the car being the same as in same CAR.

But you are right auto and manuals are not equal hahahaDo manual and auto versions ever have the same curb weight, gear ratios, etc...???

caddynoob
12-05-08, 09:08 PM
Let's not forget that the tires on the auto and manual cars that they tested might have different level of wear. Though in acceleration test it is probably less of an issue.

At the end, performance wise they are very close.

Stangar
12-08-08, 11:33 PM
The Auto and Manual have different rear gears also.

The Auto is 3.23 to 1. The Manual is 3.73 to 1. Using the proper gear ratios for each tranny and rear tire size (285/35-19) provides the following numbers:

Automatic: 2000 RPM in sixth = 71.2 MPH
2250 RPM in sixth = 80.2
2500 RPM in sixth = 89.1



Manual: 2000 RPM in sixth = 65.6 MPH
2250 RPM in sixth = 73.8
2500 RPM in sixth = 82.0

HPCC
12-09-08, 12:12 AM
^ Hmmm...the numbers indicate the manual has more of an overall mechanical advantage gear ratio-wise, yet the auto maintains parity to a slight acceleration advantage. Could the auto's torque converter be a factor?

atdeneve
12-09-08, 06:40 AM
Those numbers only indicate the relative 'mechanical advantage' that the manual has in 6th gear. The auto has the 'mechanical advantage' in the lower gears. Even with the lower differential ratio.

Razorecko
12-09-08, 09:30 AM
we'll see which trans has the advantage when the modding starts to happen :)

marktanner
12-14-08, 11:38 PM
I am a manual "purist", and I have an '08 CTS 3.6 DI FE3 M6. This car has a foot operated parking brake, which I thought I would hate, but don't really use that much, and haven't had any problems not using it here in hilly Atlanta. I have driven CTS DI automatic loaners, and still prefer the stick. Plus, even though the stick 3.6 DI has lower EPA ratings than the auto, I consistently achieve 1-2 mpg better in my car than the auto, even when I manually shifted the auto and used 2nd gear starts, which did help. This was important here recently when we had a severe gas shortage. The stick also cost $1300 less.

Looking at the invoices of stick V2 vs auto, the stick has EPA ratings of 13/19 vs 12/18 of the auto, and the gas guzzler tax is "only" $1300 vs $2600 for the auto, which yields the same $1300 saving for the stick as with my car. The stick does weigh 100 lb less per the specs, all off the front, which is good. I believe this puts the stick in a lighter EPA test category, which may account for the better ratings, but should also translate into more mpg in real life as well.

I know most people shopping this car won't care about mileage that much, but it affects RANGE as well, and that was really important when you couldn't find gas! These cars don't have big tanks as it is, so IMO the stick is truly the way to go.