: '93 North* Glitch out of hand!



Mountie
11-06-08, 04:05 PM
I'm getting exhausted!! I found new/ used vacuum parts for TB area. No change, but now I can adjust my ISC (0.60 gap). But, warming up the engine I also figured to see if there was air in the coolant system. I kept the tank cap off for a bit. The car got hot driving around the neighborhood yesterday spewing out the little hose. The car did cool down to 117.??

Today, the fans didn't turn on until 225 degrees, and the coolant was flying out of the overflow & steaming! I turned on the Air before the fans turned on, and stayed on after turning off the Air. ??

After cooling down, I'm hoping to replenish the coolant to hopefully balance both sides of the thermostat????? How do I fill both sides to make sure I have all the water? I hope low coolant is low? ( The tank was full before starting car)...

So far, the oil & coolant seem clear of any oil/ water mix. The dreadded head gasket.... I don't believe so.....

I had concerns about "white smoke" which is a lot when first starting up. - Yesterday it had a lot of white smoke ( gas related?)

This morning no smoke.

I don't have a million dollars to send it to a shop for all this stuff.

The end-all might be buying a crate motor? But I must know if I NEED TO!!

I'm so frustrated.

Everything else about the STS is fantastic. ( Sell it -or just install a crate motor & you got a great car - 2 y/o tranny, etc)

RexCaroll
11-06-08, 04:18 PM
Im no caddilac expert mechanic. But I have a few ideas for you. #1 the fans should not be waiting till the motor is red hot before turning on. It could be a bad fan thats not starting when its supose to, a bad thermo switch, or a bad relay. My suggestion is wirer the fan hot to run all the time and drive the balls off the car and see if it overheats. If it starts to heat up make sure the fans still running. If it is you can look else where for your problem. Like bad thermostat, water pump or bad head gasket....

Rex

Mountie
11-06-08, 04:31 PM
Im no caddilac expert mechanic. But I have a few ideas for you. #1 the fans should not be waiting till the motor is red hot before turning on. It could be a bad fan thats not starting when its supose to, a bad thermo switch, or a bad relay. My suggestion is wirer the fan hot to run all the time and drive the balls off the car and see if it overheats. If it starts to heat up make sure the fans still running. If it is you can look else where for your problem. Like bad thermostat, water pump or bad head gasket....

Rex

I'm trying to remember what temp the fans should turn on. When I bought the car I had to 'tap' the relays and the one fan turned on, and replaced the other. I need to find at what temp they turn on, to see if one of the relays are bad.

If the fans don't turn on, does it heat up THAT MUCH? & so fast??

STSj90
11-06-08, 05:12 PM
225 is not red hot. Its normal for the northstar. Actually ive seen that its common for it to get hotter than that on curtain days. But shouldnt go past 232.

Id say everything is fine. Sounds like if you filled the coolant to the top..Thats too much. And it will puke it out. Needs to be half way up the tank cold with the engine off.
And the smoke could very well be cold smoke. Wich is normal. What was the outside air temp when the white ''smoke'' was coming out?


ALSO, I beleive the fans come on at 224....

Mountie
11-06-08, 05:19 PM
225 is not red hot. Its normal for the northstar. Actually ive seen that its common for it to get hotter than that on curtain days. But shouldnt go past 232.

Id say everything is fine. Sounds like if you filled the coolant to the top..Thats too much. And it will puke it out. Needs to be half way up the tank cold with the engine off.
And the smoke could very well be cold smoke. Wich is normal. What was the outside air temp when the white ''smoke'' was coming out?


ALSO, I beleive the fans come on at 224....

75 degrees.

Warm & cold days..... Not the typical amount of smoke, wondering about a fuel glitch - Stuck injector, 'cause the idle stumbles a bit when it happens. Excess gas. But it didn't happen, ( stumble), today, except for 30 seconds. & no smoke today.

It's hard to see where "half way " is in the tank.

Submariner409
11-06-08, 06:54 PM
Somewhere around halfway full, COLD, is about correct. Much over that and it all spits out on the ground as the coolant expands with engine temperature rise. A LOT of coolant will blow out before the pressure cap seats again: it is not designed to seat against liquid pressure, only gasses.

If the '93 is anything close to the later series N* the fans go to slow at 224 degrees or A/C ON. Fans to fast at coolant 236 degrees or transmission at 304.

There's a purge line in the coolant system which runs from near the top of the surge tank (NOT the overflow line which may ba attached at the tank neck) to a fitting near the water pump and thermostat housing. This line removes gas bubbles from the coolant and bleeds the gasses to the surge tank airspace in order to lower crevice corrosion and water pump cavitation. Check the purge line for free flow, and if necessary clean out the water pump end and the tank nipple.

Ranger
11-06-08, 09:38 PM
Next time you start it and it starts "smoking", go back there and stick your nose in the tail pipe. If it smeels like fuel, it's an injector or FPR. If it smeels sweet like coolant, bend over.

Mountie
11-06-08, 09:51 PM
Next time you start it and it starts "smoking", go back there and stick your nose in the tail pipe. If it smeels like fuel, it's an injector or FPR. If it smeels sweet like coolant, bend over.

I tried real hard to smell coolant back there.... (sounds gross?)....

Almost passed out...... Can't say it's coolant. Not sweet.
Fuel only.

Re: uneven - higher idle glitch....
Hey, The ISC plunger doesn't move off the throttle. Following directions. ( But I can push the throttle away from it.) Is the 0.60 gap BETWEEN the plunger & throttle 'tip'?? I can use a 9mm to turn the bolt/plunger.

Can I just replace the ISC with the one that was on my old North*?

I'll jump on the FPR & Inj. next.

Eee - gads..... This crap is all at once....

Mountie
11-06-08, 10:32 PM
Next time you start it and it starts "smoking", go back there and stick your nose in the tail pipe. If it smeels like fuel, it's an injector or FPR. If it smeels sweet like coolant, bend over.

I looked in my Manual..... '93 Volume 1, FPR is on page 6C-12 to 14, etc., is 4.9 (vinB). WHERE IS 4.6 VIN 9????

I can't seem to locate where the FPR is. The back of the manual says they are both together on the same page, but it isn't.

There is a vacuum connection to the TB on one side, FPR on the other side of the part. Where is it?? Up by the TB? Or down hidden somewhere?

Inside the "Turtle" cover at injectors? I have the extra Inj. assy. but not sure what to find..

Ranger
11-06-08, 11:06 PM
Is the 0.60 gap BETWEEN the plunger & throttle 'tip'??
Yes, when the plunger is fully retracted.

On the '93/'94, the FPR is on the fuel rail, inside the manifold. Remove the manifold cover. Since it is subjected to manifold vacuum, there will be no vacuum hose to the nipple. Turn the key on to activate the fuel pump and pressurize the fuel system, but DO NOT crank the engine or it will run away at WOT and bounce off the rev limiter. Look for fuel leakage from the FPR nipple.

Mountie
11-07-08, 01:32 PM
Yes, when the plunger is fully retracted.

On the '93/'94, the FPR is on the fuel rail, inside the manifold. Remove the manifold cover. Since it is subjected to manifold vacuum, there will be no vacuum hose to the nipple. Turn the key on to activate the fuel pump and pressurize the fuel system, but DO NOT crank the engine or it will run away at WOT and bounce off the rev limiter. Look for fuel leakage from the FPR nipple.

I found where the FPR is, looking in my spare Injector assy. Looking in the Manual, it seems I need to buy a box of 'O' rings, & the LEARN PROCEDURES!! What the heck??

My gosh! I wish I could find a " Cadillac Owner's .COM friendly" local independent service shop!! I may make a glitch into a mess, if I don't know how to adjust, code selections, etc.

I just don't have $500.00 to take this glitch to a dealer!

Can I relieve the fuel pressure, be CAREFUL WITH 'o' RINGS, & just replace the FPR if needed? Let the computer do the adjust?

The manual directions seem to be for the 4.9L, and not the North*, anyway? North* is different procedures?

By the way, I opened the TB butterfly, turned on the ignition, and used a flashlight to see ( over to the right) the base of the FPR inside the opening. I saw no evidence of fuel leaking. ( I should be able to see it there?)

I'm capable of removing the Inj. lid & pulling up the Inj rail myself......

Would fuel be spouting out of the top / vacuum nipple? Not having to remove the fuel rail anyway?

( Man-o-man ).....:crybaby:

Mountie
11-07-08, 02:54 PM
Yes, when the plunger is fully retracted.

On the '93/'94, the FPR is on the fuel rail, inside the manifold. Remove the manifold cover. Since it is subjected to manifold vacuum, there will be no vacuum hose to the nipple. Turn the key on to activate the fuel pump and pressurize the fuel system, but DO NOT crank the engine or it will run away at WOT and bounce off the rev limiter. Look for fuel leakage from the FPR nipple.

Even when fully retracted, the throttle is still against the plunger. Do I keep turning the plunger/bolt head until I get the 0.60?

I plugged in the other ISC to the car, turned on the ign. and it clicked & vibrated like crazy! Seems to work, but work well? It seemed to be fine when it was in the car when the original engine was still in, & it idled fine.

But it looks like the plunger is the same distance as the one in the car?

Ranger
11-07-08, 03:33 PM
I'm not sure if you can detect a leak in the FPR by looking through the TB. It may only be a small drip. You can R&R the FPR with the fuel rail in place. Just be sure to relieve the fuel pressure first by holding a rag on the service port (Schroeder valve) and depressing the valve pin (Just like letting air out of a tire).

If when fully retracted, the plunger is still against the throttle linkage, turn the plunger in until you have the .060 gap. Then drive it and it should relearn the idle in a few days. A clicking and ratcheting ISC more is a sign that it is going bad.

Mountie
11-07-08, 04:20 PM
I'm not sure if you can detect a leak in the FPR by looking through the TB. It may only be a small drip. You can R&R the FPR with the fuel rail in place. Just be sure to relieve the fuel pressure first by holding a rag on the service port (Schroeder valve) and depressing the valve pin (Just like letting air out of a tire).

If when fully retracted, the plunger is still against the throttle linkage, turn the plunger in until you have the .060 gap. Then drive it and it should relearn the idle in a few days. A clicking and ratcheting ISC more is a sign that it is going bad.

I'm struggling, but also learning...... I remember a couple weeks ago the ISC was 'clicking' for 20 seconds before stopping, after I turned the car off.

So I can get a new one.

Also, ( keep in mind) I'm testing my R&R on my old Injector assy. before I do it on the actual car.

Removing the Inj. lid, the plastic frame for the injectors/fuel rail is one piece..... I have to lift it completly up to get at the FPR, lifting the Injectors also. It's troublesome to squeeze the plastic tabs on the plastic fuel rail frame, leaving the Injectors attached to the intake, and still have to keep everything undamaged. Easier to just lift the whole assy.

I wonder if I can test Injectors now? Maybe just look & see if one opening is different than the others ( stuck)....

I'm going to learn about injectors now.....:alchi:

Ranger
11-07-08, 05:27 PM
Sounds like a failing ISC motor. Check rockauto or gmotors for a new one.

I do not believe you have to remove the fuel rail or the injectors to R&R the FPR. Just remove the manifold cover and it should be mounted right on the fuel rail.

Mountie
11-07-08, 05:56 PM
Sounds like a failing ISC motor. Check rockauto or gmotors for a new one.

I do not believe you have to remove the fuel rail or the injectors to R&R the FPR. Just remove the manifold cover and it should be mounted right on the fuel rail.

I attached 3 photos... Of my SPARE Injector assy., not done on the car yet...

1, is the FPR and how it can't be raised up from the rail. Notice the 'crown' shape, on rail, covering the FPR rim..

2, The FPR has a bracket* on the side & also has the fuel inlet that has to be pulled sideways, out, from the fuel supply, under the rail surface. (* Bracket for the 4.9 engine - exposed outside of system, attaching vacuum hose to top nipple)

3, The whole fuel assy. has to be raised to get at the FPR.

FPR : $145.47 Part# 17089203

ISC 'Actuator' : $176.70 Part# 17112866

Should I really have to replace 'o' rings after removal?

Ranger
11-07-08, 08:11 PM
That does not look like pics I remember seeing of the '93/'94. Looks to me like you have to remove that black cover surrounding the manifold. Maybe that's the gasket? I'm not real familiar with the '93/'94.

Mountie
11-07-08, 09:00 PM
That does not look like pics I remember seeing of the '93/'94. Looks to me like you have to remove that black cover surrounding the manifold. Maybe that's the gasket? I'm not real familiar with the '93/'94.

The "black gasket" is the top side rim of the injector housing. The fuel rail, underneath, with the injectors are attached with tabs on the underside. ( A big pain in the butt to dissconnect fuel stuff from the underside of black plastic) I just lift the ENTIRE 'black plastic' gasget up, pulling the injectors up with it. Which I have to do to gain access to the FPR, to be able to dissconnect it.

Injector wiring is on top ( under thin cover ) with injectors attached underside. This gasket is more like an assembly.

I'm going to take the car for a little test drive and see what (if anything) changed. Before buying ISC & FPR .

Ranger
11-07-08, 09:07 PM
Not at all what I remembered seeing.

Mountie
11-07-08, 09:13 PM
Not at all what I remembered seeing.

Yea, I know...... I have gray hair too.....

I can't afford a new Caddy, so I have to learn this one.

To me, even getting, (later) a new G.M. North* longblock, it's worth it, figuring the cost of a new performance car these days.

Mountie
11-09-08, 02:28 PM
Since I had to replace nearly all the coolant, can I get those 'required' coolant tablets at a parts store? Like a PepBoys or an AutoZone?

Submariner409
11-09-08, 06:32 PM
If you had no leaks before the work, and the hoses and their connections are OK, don't worry about the Bar's Leaks B12P... sealant tablets or brown powder, available at any parts house. The tablets or powder comes in a lettered clear plastic tube with end caps.....not a bottle or plastic bottle. It is/was used on initial assembly to stop nuisance leaks.

Mountie
11-09-08, 07:16 PM
If you had no leaks before the work, and the hoses and their connections are OK, don't worry about the Bar's Leaks B12P... sealant tablets or brown powder, available at any parts house. The tablets or powder comes in a lettered clear plastic tube with end caps.....not a bottle or plastic bottle. It is/was used on initial assembly to stop nuisance leaks.

As per manual, "serious may occur" if the tablets are not used.

No supplements?

Just coolant - only?

Ranger
11-09-08, 09:26 PM
The cooling system supplement (sealant tabs) are just insurance against porous aluminum castings or small nuisance leaks. You can get them at Walmart or most auto parts stores. The tabs are Barsleaks product code HDC and the powdered version is G12BP.

Mountie
11-11-08, 02:32 PM
Ranger & Submariner, Back to my ISC.. One glitch is in neutral, revving up easily to 3,500, the idle doesn't drop down smoothly. It goes down, ..up a tiny bit, then down.

I read another post & dissconnected the cruise connection & plugged it back in. ??

I have not tried that result yet, I'm going to get the coolant supplement first.

I'm getting an ISC, install it then after then, I'll get the FPR if needed due to 'white smoke' that comes & goes.

Am I going in the correct direction?

Man.... I wish I could find, & take my car to a knowlegable Northstar guy near by....

Ranger
11-11-08, 03:52 PM
Hard to say, but kind of sounds like a bad ISC motor.

Does the white "smoke" smell like coolant or gas?

Mountie
11-11-08, 03:54 PM
Hard to say, but kind of sounds like a bad ISC motor.

Does the white "smoke" smell like coolant or gas?

Gas..... ( You NEVER forget that coolant smell !! )

By the way.... As soon as my budget allows I will become a supporting member again......

Mountie
11-11-08, 06:47 PM
Hard to say, but kind of sounds like a bad ISC motor.

Does the white "smoke" smell like coolant or gas?

The new ISC does not have the shoulder sticking out like in the old ISC. I will turn in the new bolt to match the old one ( 7 threads, 1/4" - sort of) As a ball park length?

The new ISC didn't have the bolt in the plunger yet, and installing it for the first time it feels like the threads are bad, but I think it is like a locking thread? It did go in. ( photo shows it not it threaded yet)

It just felt scary.

I hope the o.60 gap can be done now...... Since the plunger is already in all the way.

I'll see if the manual says anything, but I believe it requires a diagnostic hook-up.

So, install, adjust to 0.60, THEN plug harness into it?

Mountie
11-11-08, 08:43 PM
[quote=Ranger;1681784]Hard to say, but kind of sounds like a bad ISC motor.

I installed the new ISC. Engine off, ISC unplugged.

Photos : An overview of location, and then close-up of ISC & plunger ( center photo).... All the way in.... Came this way.

Without starting engine, maybe adjust 0.60 to the gap? Currently a 1/8" gap.

I hope I'm not driving you nuts??

Ranger
11-11-08, 09:50 PM
Yeah, try that and if that does not work, then start the procedure from the start as initially instructed. I'm not sure if it is shipped fully retracted or not.

If the "smoke" smells like gas, then you have a stuck open injector(s). Maybe a bad FPR, but I would think it would have to be pretty bad. Should be easy to tell.

Mountie
11-11-08, 10:24 PM
Yeah, try that and if that does not work, then start the procedure from the start as initially instructed. I'm not sure if it is shipped fully retracted or not.

If the "smoke" smells like gas, then you have a stuck open injector(s). Maybe a bad FPR, but I would think it would have to be pretty bad. Should be easy to tell.

The ISC was retracted new..... I installed it and NO difference. ( anyone want a new ISC?) But I had to know for sure, so I got a new one.

As soon as I plugged it in, the plunger came out, and like the old ones, it won't push all the way back inside at all. ( Note previous ISC photos) . Like the other ones, the plunger only manualy pushes back in only a little bit.

With ISC unplugged, the idle is not consistant. With the ISC PLUGGED IN, the idle is not consistant.

ALSO, with ISC plugged in, & I rev up the RPM, it stays high for a long moment, THEN drops down..SLOWLY back to a high idle.

With the ISC UNPLUGGED, and I rev it up,it comes down MUCH BETTER but still a high idle.

Hey, how is it "Easy to tell" if it is an injector or FPR??????

( slightly rough idle during white smoke ) A LOT of smoke ..then it clears up and during my testing, no more smoke. :hmm:

( Redundant > A local Northstar guy?? )

Ranger
11-12-08, 11:01 AM
Is the ISC plunger screwed all the way in?

I think we went through how to test the FPR. If that is not leaking then you'll have to pull the fuel rail and energize the fuel pump and look for a leaking injector.

Mountie
11-12-08, 12:26 PM
Is the ISC plunger screwed all the way in?

I think we went through how to test the FPR. If that is not leaking then you'll have to pull the fuel rail and energize the fuel pump and look for a leaking injector.

The ISC plunger when purchased, was all the way in. It seems, when plugged in for the very first time, it pops out, and will never go all the way in, again.

Yes, the plunger bolt is pretty much screwed all the way in, with no gap ...ever between throttle & the tip of the plunger bolt. ( Just like the other old ones).....

I wonder if I attempt to drive it (as you say) have the car re-learn the idle position? Before doing other $$ questionable parts?

I still don't understand the reason why the idle, when I rev it to 2,500RPM, it "holds" the idle up there for 5 seconds before slowly dropping down, WHEN ISC IS PLUGGED IN........

I have not heard mention about the TPS........ ? Would that be defective & mess with idle control as mentioned?

I'd rather solve the idle glitch before messing with opening up the Injector lid ......

Mountie
11-12-08, 03:51 PM
Is the ISC plunger screwed all the way in?

I think we went through how to test the FPR. If that is not leaking then you'll have to pull the fuel rail and energize the fuel pump and look for a leaking injector.

This morning, just turning on the ignition, the NEW ISC motor was running & the plunger was "clicking" back & forth for about 30 seconds.

Turning off the ignition does the same thing!

( Is the car "learning"?)

The old one did the same thing sometimes.

What the hell would cause that??

I'm calling a mechanic that might have worked on these before, I hope!

Ranger
11-12-08, 07:22 PM
A ratcheting ISC motor is a sign that it is failing.

Mountie
11-12-08, 09:52 PM
A ratcheting ISC motor is a sign that it is failing.

It's the NEW ISC that was ratcheting!!

No offence.... But are you sure? It's new*

( * "new" = Not a known good ) Heck if it's bad, I hope I can return it.

I am going to remove the Injector lid & check the FPR for leaks.... thinking it is leaking into the plenium ( intake manifold ) causing all the white gas smoke.

Whew!! :rant2:

Ranger
11-12-08, 10:05 PM
My understanding is that a ratcheting ISC motor is bad. It's not supposed to do that. See if anyone thinks otherwise. Maybe you could find and try the idle learn procedure and see if that helps, but I'm guessing it won't. I don't like that ratcheting.

If the "smoke" smells like gas, then it is unburnt fuel vapor. That is an extremely rich condition and it has to be an injector(s) or FPR.

Mountie
11-12-08, 10:21 PM
My understanding is that a ratcheting ISC motor is bad. It's not supposed to do that. See if anyone thinks otherwise. Maybe you could find and try the idle learn procedure and see if that helps, but I'm guessing it won't. I don't like that ratcheting.

If the "smoke" smells like gas, then it is unburnt fuel vapor. That is an extremely rich condition and it has to be an injector(s) or FPR.

I'm learning & listening.......
I was told a bad injector, usually, is in the closed position, making me believe the FPR is leaking the fuel, causing white smoke. I'm checking tomorrow.

I'll research the ratcheting tomorrow if possible. :banghead:

Ranger
11-12-08, 10:28 PM
I'm not sure how injectors "usually" fail. I would tend to agree with you (in the closed) position, but I suppose it is possible to have some debris cause the pintle to stick open. I'm kind of thinking FPR though, because you said that the smoke is not constant. I'm envisioning the fuel pooling in the intake until enough builds up to get sucked in and run a cylinder or two very rich. If that is the case, the possibility of enough pooling to cause a hydrolock situation is rather scary.

Mountie
11-13-08, 12:57 AM
I'm not sure how injectors "usually" fail. I would tend to agree with you (in the closed) position, but I suppose it is possible to have some debris cause the pintle to stick open. I'm kind of thinking FPR though, because you said that the smoke is not constant. I'm envisioning the fuel pooling in the intake until enough builds up to get sucked in and run a cylinder or two very rich. If that is the case, the possibility of enough pooling to cause a hydrolock situation is rather scary.

Years ago, being a crew chief on an Off-Shore Powerboat racer, I had an engine hatch out for repair. It rained. The weight of water lowered the canvas cover, punching a hole from the carb aircleaner stud, filling engine w/ rain. Starting the 600 ci Chevy, it locked up "CLUNK". ( Water) We drained it.... It was fine.

I believe the fuel is only in the plenium , creating smog out the pipe.

I HOPE....... :blah:

Ranger
11-13-08, 11:50 AM
Another thought comes to mind. The fuel rail in inside the manifold on your engine. Perhaps IT is leaking.

Mountie
11-13-08, 12:08 PM
Another thought comes to mind. The fuel rail in inside the manifold on your engine. Perhaps IT is leaking.

Well, I'll find out soon enough..... I'm preparing to remove the Injector cover. I suppose I don't have to release fuel pressure until I do a leak test? I hope I can remove the cover without raising/ dislodging the fuel parts inside. ...Patience......

Using a flashlight, I'll turn on the ignition & see what I find. Then depending on WHAT I find, I may raise up the fuel rail , etc. I hope 'O' rings ( Injectors) will be alright.... I may clean up around the system, etc.

I wish I had access to the diagnostic toys...... I have spare MAP sensor, etc.......

Wish me luck.....

Ranger
11-13-08, 12:31 PM
Right, you don't have to relieve fuel pressure until and if you open the fuel system.

Mountie
11-13-08, 02:21 PM
Right, you don't have to relieve fuel pressure until and if you open the fuel system.

I saw no evidence of a drip or leakage anywhere. Nothing came out of the FPR vacuum tip. Even though, the whole thing has a residue..all over inside the Injector interior & on top of the plastic "gasket". I cleaned the FPR & dried it off. Dried off at the base of the FPR ( using an air hose & 'Q' Tip.

I turned on the ignition....and even did a "bump the starter" to encourage a leak. Nothing found.

The injection valley, down inside, had only a tiny bit of residual wetness, in the crevice ( shown in photo - my spare Injection, but it looks the same)

By TURNING ON THE IGNITION... does that in itself build fuel pressure to locate a leak?

I wonder if I can take the Injectors/ fuel rail to a shop to check injectors. I THINK I may be able to remove it from the cast housing?

( In through the nose....out the mouth.....)

Mountie
11-13-08, 03:27 PM
Right, you don't have to relieve fuel pressure until and if you open the fuel system.

Well.... next,...... After drying & wiping what I could get to ( fuel rail still attached)....... I noticed raw fuel puddeling on the bottom surface, just inside of the butterfly. Wiping it again, engaging the starter ( It won't start up with a 10 sec, turn-over)..... Fuel is running down from where the FUEL INLET connection is. ( If you look into throttle body opening, it's at the 11:00 position)..... Fuel runs down ( not a lot but is visible to my NAKED eye).

Now, maybe because the car is NOT starting, it leaks out? But I don't think so?

I can ASSUME..... Raw fuel down inside the air box, gets into the air mixture?? Blowing out the tail pipe?

I can ASSUME the fuel inlet connection is leaking fuel while running, but how does it continue to leak ENOUGH fuel when turned off, to create so much smoke at start-up??

I can ASSUME I need to finally lift off the fuel rail? And spend another $4,500 on some dealer 'O' rings for the fuel rail hose connections?

.......:stirpot:.........:alchi:

Ranger
11-13-08, 03:31 PM
By TURNING ON THE IGNITION... does that in itself build fuel pressure to locate a leak?
Yes, That energizes the fuel pump for 2-3 seconds and pressurizes the fuel system. Bumping the starter does nothing.

I don't see the fuel rail in those pics. I think it is down below that gasket or whatever that is around the manifold.

Ranger
11-13-08, 03:35 PM
I can ASSUME the fuel inlet connection is leaking fuel while running, but how does it continue to leak ENOUGH fuel when turned off, to create so much smoke at start-up??
When you shut down, the system is still pressurized to 45 psi. That pressure bleeds down to zero and the raw fuel sits in the manifold until you restart. You must locate and repair the leak.

Gotta leave for work. Talk to you later.

Mountie
11-13-08, 03:41 PM
When you shut down, the system is still pressurized to 45 psi. That pressure bleeds down to zero and the raw fuel sits in the manifold until you restart. You must locate and repair the leak.

Gotta leave for work. Talk to you later.

Thanks... Uh, I have a previous post photograph, showing what the fuel rail looks like below. The actual connection looks like the connection the FPR fits down onto.

Thank you so much for your help!.....:worship:

Mountie
11-13-08, 04:34 PM
Thanks... Uh, I have a previous post photograph, showing what the fuel rail looks like below. The actual connection looks like the connection the FPR fits down onto.

Thank you so much for your help!.....:worship:

Here's photos of the area. The fuel INLET is underside, & you have to push down all 8 injectors, the FPR, the Brake vacuum, & Fuel inlet fitting at the same time.

First photo shows the fuel rail hose inlet, that attaches to the tube, coming up from the casting.... Below the casting is the fuel line.

Ranger
11-13-08, 06:16 PM
I suspect the leak may be in the fuel rail running from injector to injector.

Mountie
11-13-08, 07:49 PM
I suspect the leak may be in the fuel rail running from injector to injector.

There is so much CRAP to atimize fuel & air......

I believe I found the cause of excess fuel in the intake. Carefully raising the fuel rail above the FUEL INLET..... I noticed puddling at the Fuel Inlet fitting. Closer inspection, "something looked funny"........ some debris where the 'O' ring is. (The exterior fuel line enters the Injector housing from the bottom, with a nipple poking up inside the intake. Around that nipple is an 'O' ring). The 'O' ring had a chunk taken out of it. ( Old repair, or crappy factory assembly) .... Fortunatly, I have a spare 'O' ring from my sparr injector unit. I replaced it. After the residual bit of fuel spill, this should remove the "white smoke' problem. I hope.

Uh, the dealer has mostly, NO MORE PARTS FOR THE '93 -'94 Northstar injector parts..anywhere. No 'O' rings, etc. So they say.

Cross your fingers. ( Now to the idle glitch )

Ranger
11-13-08, 08:38 PM
I think you solved THAT problem. Just maybe, they where related and you killed two birds with one "O" ring. Fingers crossed.

Mountie
11-13-08, 09:19 PM
I think you solved THAT problem. Just maybe, they where related and you killed two birds with one "O" ring. Fingers crossed.

Took it for a short cruise. It idles at around 1,300, causing a bit of a "cruise control" feeling. I noticed, being careful not to excellerate more than needed, it sort of 'cruised' at the same speed I held it. It hauled ass when I tested it, and ran nice.

I wanted the car to "LEARN" different actions. After parking it, and a half hour later, I started it. It idled perfect ( 700 rpm) I hardly touched the gas parking it in the garage. Seemed perfect.

I'll see how it drives tomorrow, using the throttle as normal, not being "careful".

In the morning, it should not smoke......

I wonder how much $$ to have a guy do the "Learning Procedures" > New ISC, etc...... To dial it in?

I'll let you know what the results are tomorrow....If I can go to sleep....

Ranger
11-13-08, 09:23 PM
If it runs OK tomorrow, don't do anything to it other than drive it. You fixed it.