: Option updates (including gas guzzler tax)



Cadillac Tony
10-28-08, 05:29 PM
According to my latest information, both the Track brake package (with red calipers and two-piece front rotors) as well as the double black stained Sapele wood trim will be available in December.

As far as the Guzzler tax, there's been quite a bit of speculation. The final verdict is Level 3 ($1,700). For comparison, the M5 is a level 7 ($3,700). For anyone curious how the EPA decides this, here's the table:

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=188&pictureid=1251

caddiedrummer
10-28-08, 05:37 PM
Great post--keep them coming.

Ketzer
10-28-08, 05:52 PM
I guess I've somehow missed it... double black wood trim? Is there a pic of this somewhere? Where does it go? (specifically, which pieces of trim get swapped) It replaces plain gloss black pieces?

Gotta be good for at least 3hp... right?:histeric:

Jeff-

Cadillac Tony
10-28-08, 06:36 PM
The Black stained wood replaces the Carbon Fiber(ish) trim that runs along side the center console to the armrest, between the upper and lower dash panels and the doors.

I had to dig to find a picture of the wood, and it looks browner in this picture than in person. The trim around the shifter in these pictures is also repeated on the doors and dash. I put them side by side so you can see the difference:

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=188&pictureid=1252

Dualcams34
10-28-08, 06:36 PM
options are driving us on the plant floor nuts. We have not ever built a car with so many special little options. I saw one today with black exterior, black interior trim with neutral seat inserts and neutral door panel inserts. Different for sure. This block of V's is going very well. Just a note, because of our current money crunch, we have reduced our line rate just a bit so things are going a little slow at this time. Please be patient with your need for speed, you will get what you asked for. This car is very cool. and it is a Cadillac.
leather steering wheel and shift knob or suede? The automatic cars are far more fun to drive then the manuals. Get the auto.

Cadillac Tony
10-28-08, 06:40 PM
Here you go: The areas I painted red are where the trim is either Carbon look or wood. The strip on the dash also extends to the door, but you can't see it in this pic.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=188&pictureid=1253

Cadillac Tony
10-28-08, 06:41 PM
options are driving us on the plant floor nuts. We have not ever built a car with so many special little options. I saw one today with black exterior, black interior trim with neutral seat inserts and neutral door panel inserts. Different for sure. This block of V's is going very well. Just a note, because of our current money crunch, we have reduced our line rate just a bit so things are going a little slow at this time. Please be patient with your need for speed, you will get what you asked for. This car is very cool. and it is a Cadillac.
leather steering wheel and shift knob or suede? The automatic cars are far more fun to drive then the manuals. Get the auto.

Thanks for the update, Dualcams. :thumbsup:

Ketzer
10-28-08, 07:11 PM
... and thank you Tony, for all the effort to explain the wood option location.

This isn't another question, just an opinion. I realize Alacantra is all the rage, but on the steering wheel? Sure, sure, it feels great, looks cool, but you can't think that it will last on an area like the steering wheel? White gloves everytime you drive.

Jeff-

Caddyscat
10-28-08, 07:20 PM
I wish there was a real carbon fiber trim option (sorry Dualcams - Keep an eye on that manifest!).
Tony - I have to wait till December to order the wood trim? (sorry stupid question)
I cant decide if I want Crystal red, radiant silver or thunder gray. Gonna have to look at pics of you guy's who got them first!

urbanski
10-28-08, 07:21 PM
tony and dual, ROCK ON GUYS! :)

CIWS
10-28-08, 08:11 PM
tony and dual, ROCK ON GUYS! :)

:yeah:

HPCC
10-28-08, 10:01 PM
According to my latest information, both the Track brake package (with red calipers and two-piece front rotors) as well as the double black stained Sapele wood trim will be available in December.

As far as the Guzzler tax, there's been quite a bit of speculation. The final verdict is Level 3 ($1,700). For comparison, the M5 is a level 7 ($3,700). For anyone curious how the EPA decides this, here's the table:

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=188&pictureid=1251Wow, I hope your streak of great predictions continues, Tony. I'll take around 20 combined for this car any day! I wasn't sure if she would even manage 20 highway...

JEM
10-28-08, 10:29 PM
That's not a bad mileage number, we'll see if it can match that in the real world. Same number auto vs manual?

concorso
10-28-08, 11:47 PM
That's not a bad mileage number, we'll see if it can match that in the real world. Same number auto vs manual?
Match it? I plan on smashing it. Heres to 12 mpg :cheers: :thumbsup:

JEM
10-29-08, 12:29 AM
Match it? I plan on smashing it. Heres to 12 mpg :cheers: :thumbsup:

Yeah, between stoking the boilers and the rubber and the brake pads I'm sure one could keep one's credit card quite busy.

readyact
10-29-08, 08:29 AM
Dual and Tony keep the great info coming you guys are great. Personally I want the track package and I can wait on the wood inserts. I figure there will be a couple of accessory shops that will make the interior inserts including real carbon fiber or different colors, but pulling up next to someone with the V badge and performance RED BREMBO calipers…priceless.

NormV
10-29-08, 09:26 AM
According to my latest information, both the Track brake package (with red calipers and two-piece front rotors) as well as the double black stained Sapele wood trim will be available in December.

As far as the Guzzler tax, there's been quite a bit of speculation. The final verdict is Level 3 ($1,700). For comparison, the M5 is a level 7 ($3,700). For anyone curious how the EPA decides this, here's the table:

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=188&pictureid=1251

Thanks for the update Tony and Dual!

Tony, what is your source for ggt level? Got to run you through FACT CHECK . ORG. :)

"The fuel economy figures used to determine the Gas Guzzler Tax are different from the fuel economy values provided on this web site and in the Fuel Economy Guide. The tax does not depend on your actual on-the-road mpg, which may be more or less than the EPA published value."
- http://www.fueleconomy.gov/FEG/info.shtml#guzzler

"The total amount of the tax is determined later and is based on the total number of gas guzzler vehicles that were sold that year. It is assessed after production has ended for the model year and is paid by the vehicle manufacturer or importer."
-http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/guzzler/420f06042.htm

Better add a couple hundred bucks.


Norm

Cadillac Tony
10-29-08, 09:45 AM
The source of the table is here: http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/guzzler/420f06042.htm#calculate. The Guzzler tax is based on a different set of (higher) numbers than those displayed on the window:


EPA conducts fuel economy tests in a laboratory on a dynamometer (a device similar to a treadmill). Laboratory conditions can be different from real world conditions for such parameters as vehicle speeds, acceleration rates, driving patterns, ambient temperatures, fuel type, tire pressure, wind resistance, etc. EPA studies indicate that vehicles driven by typical drivers under typical road conditions get approximately 90 percent of the laboratory test-based city miles per gallon (mpg) value and approximately78 percent of laboratory highway mpg value. This difference is referred to as “in-use shortfall.” To account for the in-use shortfall, the city and highway mpg values listed in Fuel Economy Guide and shown on fuel economy labels are multiplied by 0.90 for the city test and 0.78 for the highway test. However, the combined city and highway fuel economy that is used to determine tax liability is not adjusted to account for in-use shortfall, so it is higher than the mpg values provided in the Fuel Economy Guide (www.fueleconomy.gov) and posted on the window stickers of new vehicles.


The source of the information that the 2009 CTS-V carries a level 3 tax ($1,700) is directly from Cadillac, so I know it's correct.

Cadillac Tony
10-29-08, 10:05 AM
It's also worth noting that the .78 and .90 correction factors were only added by the EPA in the last few years when they came under criticism for the public perception that their estimated MPG numbers were too high. This is the same public that (for the most part) drives on under-inflated tires and doesn't properly maintain their cars, so now the numbers have gone from one extreme to the other.

Case in point: The 2003 DTS had an EPA estimated 28mpg highway, which most of my customers achieved on trips. Along came the correction factor, and now the 2009 DTS with the same weight and powertrain has an EPA estimated 23mpg highway, which is far less than it actually gets. A lot of people who are trading '03s ask me "Why does this one not get the mileage my old one does?", and I then have to explain the convoluted process the EPA uses to "guess" what mileage you're going to achieve- The EPA is now basically assuming that you're not going to properly inflate your tires or service your car, but they leave themselves an out: The tiny numbers below their guessed "average". It looks like this:


23MPG

"Mileage will range between 19mpg and 27mpg"

The whole system is pretty silly and flawed, especially in how they present it to the consumer.

Florian
10-29-08, 10:28 AM
tony and dual, ROCK ON GUYS! :)

+1, thanks to both of youz!



F

Flyboy
10-29-08, 10:31 AM
This new V is gonna' be "V"antastic!!!!!!

Cadillac Tony
10-29-08, 11:10 AM
rofl :rofl:

bruff1977
10-29-08, 04:13 PM
Happy to hear the wood is available, Tony. I hope it's similar to the wood in the STS-Vs. Now on to bugging my dealer about changing my order in include the wood...

CVP33
10-29-08, 06:47 PM
Sorry I didn't have time to read all the posts. I was just so excited to see the new inferno red interior treatment. Looks awesome!!!!

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=188&pictureid=1253

bruff1977
10-29-08, 07:15 PM
This may be the best pic I've seen of the black wood...

bruff1977
10-29-08, 07:21 PM
Sorry folks, here's the pic...

http://www.autoblog.com/photos/first-drive-2009-cadillac-cts-v/1011538/

NormV
10-29-08, 08:21 PM
GM would be optimistic for 20 mpg combined. That is why I questioned it. Allot of current V owners would love to 20 combined with 150 HP and 400-500 lbs less!

Dts use reg unleaded now as opposed to premium in early models?


Norm

gotapex
10-29-08, 08:34 PM
Sorry folks, here's the pic...




Great pictures, thanks.

Cadillac Tony
10-29-08, 09:43 PM
Sorry folks, here's the pic...

http://www.autoblog.com/photos/first-drive-2009-cadillac-cts-v/1011538/

Nice find- that's the stuff.



Dts use reg unleaded now as opposed to premium in early models?




87 octane since model year 2000.

HPCC
10-30-08, 12:15 AM
Taken at face value, level 3 seems to map more closely to the regular CTS combined MPG. What I was expecting from the V was more along the lines of the E63 AMG: around 13/20 for a combined of around 15. Of course I hope I'm wrong...

Varsity
10-30-08, 05:20 AM
My RS4 struggles to hit 18mpg, and take in mind that the gallon here is bigger than in the USA, an extra 5th I believe.

So I cant see the V being better than that, even our 3.6 CTS struggles to get 22mpg combined on gas, but with LPG at 1/2 price the cost of gasoline we really are 'cooking on gas!' (LPG).

:D

gotapex
10-30-08, 04:00 PM
My RS4 struggles to hit 18mpg, and take in mind that the gallon here is bigger than in the USA, an extra 5th I believe.

So I cant see the V being better than that, even our 3.6 CTS struggles to get 22mpg combined on gas, but with LPG at 1/2 price the cost of gasoline we really are 'cooking on gas!' (LPG).

:D


My wife struggles to get 11mpg (US gallons) on her 06 BMW M5. That means that on average, the first low-gas warning light turns on at around 130-150 miles on the tank, and she needs to refill by 170-180 miles.

She's not even the worst, some drivers on the M5board get as low as 8mpg.

By that benchmark, the CTS-V is doing very well. :)

jashearer
10-30-08, 04:22 PM
Also remember that Tony mentioned how the combined MPG is calculated for guzzler tax in that its all done on a treadmill with no wind resistance...

At least that's how I read it. That can make a huge difference as he also pointed out.

Jay

jkviper
10-30-08, 09:33 PM
I just picked up a Jaguar XF Supercharged I ordered back in August. I really liked the CTS V, but needed more leg, head and shoulder room and wanted Active Cruise Control.

Anyway, the Jag is estimated at 16 City and 23 Highway and there was no gas guzzler tax on the Sticker, according to Tony's post there should have been.

So far after the third tank of gas I am averaging 21 mpg averaging 44mph which is probably 75% highway. Not too bad for a 4200 lbs car with 420 horsepower.

jimbo1320
10-30-08, 09:42 PM
Thanks Toney for keeping us abreast on options etc. Ahh more choices. I also looked up the gas guzzeler tax on line and after I ran the formula I came up with $2600. I used 13 mpg city and 19 hwy as a starting point which yelded a overal 17.64 mpg putting it at level 5 or $2600. If of course I used the formula correctly.

atdeneve
10-31-08, 04:04 AM
Reading, reading, oh so fun! Reading is for everyone!

One post above yours.

Anyway, the Jag is estimated at 16 City and 23 Highway and there was no gas guzzler tax on the Sticker, according to Tony's post there should have been.

So far after the third tank of gas I am averaging 21 mpg averaging 44mph which is probably 75% highway. Not too bad for a 4200 lbs car with 420 horsepower.

And two posts above yours.

Thanks Toney for keeping us abreast on options etc. Ahh more choices. I also looked up the gas guzzeler tax on line and after I ran the formula I came up with $2600. I used 13 mpg city and 19 hwy as a starting point which yelded a overal 17.64 mpg putting it at level 5 or $2600. If of course I used the formula correctly.

But what do we have here?

Also remember that Tony mentioned how the combined MPG is calculated for guzzler tax in that its all done on a treadmill with no wind resistance...

At least that's how I read it. That can make a huge difference as he also pointed out.

Jay

Cadillac Tony
10-31-08, 10:41 PM
Okay, I totally burned myself on an assumption there. My training course said "level 3" for the CTS-V, and I started counting at the first level where there's a charge. Apparently they consider "no charge" level 1, because the official number is $1,300 guzzler tax, not $1,700.

Whoops for me, but good news in the end! :hide:

JEM
11-01-08, 04:47 PM
My wife struggles to get 11mpg (US gallons) on her 06 BMW M5. That means that on average, the first low-gas warning light turns on at around 130-150 miles on the tank, and she needs to refill by 170-180 miles.

My old E39 M5 averages 17mpg. Our C5 Audi S6 Avant averages 17mpg. My wife's E39 540iA averages 17mpg. Think we're in a rut?

thebigjimsho
11-01-08, 07:14 PM
Okay, I totally burned myself on an assumption there. My training course said "level 3" for the CTS-V, and I started counting at the first level where there's a charge. Apparently they consider "no charge" level 1, because the official number is $1,300 guzzler tax, not $1,700.

Whoops for me, but good news in the end! :hide:Wasn't there an omission of a gas guzzler tax on the '04 due to production numbers, or something like that? I know I didn't pay a GG tax, but I don't know why...

CIWS
11-01-08, 11:22 PM
Wasn't there an omission of a gas guzzler tax on the '04 due to production numbers, or something like that? I know I didn't pay a GG tax, but I don't know why...

There wasn't one in 04 and 06, but in 05 and 07. Not sure the reason for the difference.

jimbo1320
11-02-08, 06:01 PM
I thought the 04 was exempt because it was a mid year release. The 06 I don't know. Numbers for the 04 were half what the 06 and 05 were.

gotapex
11-03-08, 12:37 PM
My old E39 M5 averages 17mpg. Our C5 Audi S6 Avant averages 17mpg. My wife's E39 540iA averages 17mpg. Think we're in a rut?


LOL, yes indeed. However, that's a good step better than my non-rut. :ill: Besides that 11mpg BMW, we've got a 12mpg SUV, a 13mpg car, and 17mpg car. This Caddy may end up being the best of the bunch.