: GM asking for $10B bailout



The Wrench
10-28-08, 12:55 PM
Here we go again, first houses, now cars:

The American public turned their backs on GM, and bought Japanese cars, just because they were generally better machines, and better values.
The justifications were free enterprise, global economy, and getting the most personal bang for the buck, no matter where it originated.
A few of us rationalized hard, and bought GM cars anyway, assuming it was good for the country, and in the end good for us to keep the nation's once-largest company alive.

Now, I am being asked to sacrifice again to support GM, because our people wouldn't, the unions wouldn't, the workers wouldn't, and the management wouldn't.

So, if nobody cares, or wants their products, why should the average, Toyota-driving taxpayer be asked to save GM?

The Japanese are laughing at the dumb, greedy Americans, who could care less about nationalism, pride in their work, and American values.

I want to blame someone, but it keeps coming back to that famous Peanuts quote: "We have met the enemy and he are us".

Maybe they should give the $10B to GM, then give a tax break to all us guys who drive GM cars?

DG

The Tony Show
10-28-08, 04:26 PM
Here we go again :lol:. There's plenty of blame to go around for the current state of the Big 3, including (but not limited to):

-Foolish decisions made by executives

-Bean counters designing cars instead of engineers

-Triple the "legacy costs" (pensions and healthcare) compared to Japanese companies

-Poor design and reliability through the 70s, 80s and 90s

-People buying imports

-Unions extorting exorbitant wages and benefits out of the Big 3 through strikes

.....and many more. The important thing at this point is to realize that GM or Ford going out of business would be the final nail in America's coffin, making us officially no longer a superpower. The Auto industry reaches so far into practically every other field (such as glass, computers, plastic, rubber, upholstery, oil, etc, etc...) that the effect of losing one of those two companies would decimate the large majority of businesses and workers in America.

Night Wolf
10-28-08, 04:49 PM
I drive American and I drive import.... so which side do I get thrown to?

Both Ford and GM are top sellers in China and other places... then again they actually get cool cars, if by chance we do get one, it's whatever is left over from the previous years (ala GTO/G8)

Ah well, the gov't is just printing this money anyway, not like we actually have it.

93DevilleUSMC
10-28-08, 05:41 PM
Source please?

mighty_quad4
10-28-08, 05:56 PM
Here we go again :lol:. There's plenty of blame to go around for the current state of the Big 3, including (but not limited to):

-Foolish decisions made by executives

-Bean counters designing cars instead of engineers

-Triple the "legacy costs" (pensions and healthcare) compared to Japanese companies

-Poor design and reliability through the 70s, 80s and 90s

-People buying imports

-Unions extorting exorbitant wages and benefits out of the Big 3 through strikes

.....and many more. The important thing at this point is to realize that GM or Ford going out of business would be the final nail in America's coffin, making us officially no longer a superpower. The Auto industry reaches so far into practically every other field (such as glass, computers, plastic, rubber, upholstery, oil, etc, etc...) that the effect of losing one of those two companies would decimate the large majority of businesses and workers in America.

this quote is more accurate than the OP's rant.

93DevilleUSMC
10-28-08, 06:03 PM
The OP has no source and no proof of his story. He just has yet another "I hate American cars, Americans, and American culture in general" thread. His post is unfounded gibberish and should be treated as exactly that.

gary88
10-28-08, 06:15 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081028/bs_nm/us_chrysler_gm

gothicaleigh
10-28-08, 06:22 PM
No more bailouts.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
10-28-08, 06:24 PM
Well if Iacocca did it in '79 or whenever to save Chrysler's stagnant ass, then we ought to do it now. It's benefecial for all parties involved, no?

gothicaleigh
10-28-08, 06:29 PM
Well if Iacocca did it in '79 or whenever to save Chrysler's stagnant ass, then we ought to do it now. It's benefecial for all parties involved, no?

No.

...and how did that magnificent pile of a company turn out? That's right. No one but the nearly bankrupt company we are talking about now wants to own them.

No more bailouts. I'm tired of paying for other people's failed businesses.

gary88
10-28-08, 07:42 PM
Remember when SUVs were all the craze? This is what happens :nono:

MauiV
10-28-08, 08:22 PM
Actully this will fall on the 40% of American adults that actually pay taxes, just like the $700B bailout will. Those that are living off the sweat of others and carry a $0 tax burden will continue to do so while the rest of us pay your bills.

Off my soap box now.

93DevilleUSMC
10-28-08, 08:28 PM
Actully this will fall on the 40% of American adults that actually pay taxes, just like the $700B bailout will. Those that are living off the sweat of others and carry a $0 tax burden will continue to do so while the rest of us pay your bills.

Off my soap box now.

Don't forget the bill that Obama/Biden's "tax relief" is going to add on. we the 40% will get to give out involuntary welfare..um, tax relief to 60% that don't pay taxes.:cookoo:

LS1Mike
10-28-08, 08:47 PM
10 Billion wouldn't even be close to enough, they burn through 1 billion dollars of cash a month.
That would buy them 10 months, maybe, not enough in the current finacial situation.
I question the guys sources.

hueterm
10-28-08, 10:18 PM
But I think that Chrysler has $11B and GM has a little more than that. So basically, the put all their chips on the Volt and pray that it works and that gas gets expensive again...

FAIL...

dkozloski
10-28-08, 11:13 PM
Here we go again, first houses, now cars:

The American public turned their backs on GM, and bought Japanese cars, just because they were generally better machines, and better values.
The justifications were free enterprise, global economy, and getting the most personal bang for the buck, no matter where it originated.
A few of us rationalized hard, and bought GM cars anyway, assuming it was good for the country, and in the end good for us to keep the nation's once-largest company alive.

Now, I am being asked to sacrifice again to support GM, because our people wouldn't, the unions wouldn't, the workers wouldn't, and the management wouldn't.

So, if nobody cares, or wants their products, why should the average, Toyota-driving taxpayer be asked to save GM?

The Japanese are laughing at the dumb, greedy Americans, who could care less about nationalism, pride in their work, and American values.

I want to blame someone, but it keeps coming back to that famous Peanuts quote: "We have met the enemy and he are us".

Maybe they should give the $10B to GM, then give a tax break to all us guys who drive GM cars?

DG
The quote was not from "Peanuts". It was from "Pogo Possum" and it was, "We have met the enemy and they is us". It referred to environmental issues and not automobiles.

concorso
10-28-08, 11:58 PM
The quote was not from "Peanuts". It was from "Pogo Possum" and it was, "We have met the enemy and they is us". It referred to environmental issues and not automobiles. Isn't it "...and he is us."? It was on a poster for earth day, iirc...

93DevilleUSMC
10-29-08, 01:01 AM
Hey, if GM and Chrysler tank, we're all gonna be Ford fans.

dkozloski
10-29-08, 02:02 AM
Isn't it "...and he is us."? It was on a poster for earth day, iirc...
I believe you're right. It was also the name of a book by Walt Kelly.

Krashed989
10-29-08, 02:29 AM
Why the hell does the bank get a bailout as well as GM when all of the smaller businesses that are suffering don't see a dime?... I'm in college, working 2 jobs and paying rent (have less than $100 to my name right now), I didn't even see a dime when the stimulus checks went out.... This stuff just erks me.

Sandy
10-29-08, 09:58 AM
It's the fault of the United States, for not doing what every other country (Except Canada) does. That being putting restrictions on the number of foreign cars imported into America, and then giving huge mega monster tax relief to those same companies to come here & build assembly plants in America and pay no property tax for - oh, say 25 years, while the American-owned business has its tax increased to cover the gov. loss.
Only China lets in alot of Buicks, the rest of the world, Canada excluded, you'd be hard pressed to spot a Chrysler, GM or FoMoCo car on the streets.
THEY tax our vehicles
right outta their home market. with importation taxs +++ and we give them every break in the book to come here & build and flood the market.

I say with great pride, that my family, extended family, wife's family has never owned a foreign car.
3 Cadillacs, 2 Buicks, 1 Oldsmobile, 4 Pontiacs, 3 Chevrolets, 8 Imperials, 4 Dodges, 3 Fords, 1 Mercury and 3 Lincolns.
Lemons? 2 of the 4 Pontiacs 2 outta 32 cars, were lousey. 0.6% bad

concorso
10-29-08, 10:04 AM
Why the hell does the bank get a bailout as well as GM when all of the smaller businesses that are suffering don't see a dime?... I'm in college, working 2 jobs and paying rent (have less than $100 to my name right now), I didn't even see a dime when the stimulus checks went out.... This stuff just erks me.The argument is that if you do poorly or a small business does poorly, it affects a small group of people. I read a stat that said GM indirectly employs about 10 million people...I dont know how accurate that is, but thats a substantial amount of people directly affected if GM goes under. It would take months before ofther companies could pick up the slack. Im not defending that, tho. All that means is that the hard working taxpayers are once again paying to save something, while the nontaxpayers sit by and reap benefits.

The hardworking citizens allready pay for everything, anyhow, why not pay for a little more eh?

fleetofcads
12-12-08, 04:46 PM
To me, "fair trade" is allowing ONLY the amount a export cars from a country that we import American made cars into. Whats not fair about that? They want us to buy theirs? They will need to buy the same amount from us.

I am very much for the automakers bailouts. There should be conditions but our government can pave the way through fair trade agreements from the foreign countries export competition. We got to take care of our own before we bend over for them.:rant2:

Destroyer
12-12-08, 09:58 PM
Well if Iacocca did it in '79 or whenever to save Chrysler's stagnant ass, then we ought to do it now. It's benefecial for all parties involved, no?Bring back the K car?. Oh please NO!

Jesda
12-13-08, 09:19 AM
Bring the K-car back and call it the S-car. Make 30 different economy cars, sports cars, trucks, luxury barges, and minivans based on the Sebring!

c5 rv
12-13-08, 12:15 PM
Instead of a bailout, how about designating tax payments for leases? We already have the option to check off a couple dollars of our returns for Presidential elections. Let's allow people to allocate withheld income tax dollars, say up to $500 per month, towards the lease of a new GM, Ford, or Chrysler vehicle. The automakers get money and sell more cars. We don't have to make an extra car payment.

GailyBedight
12-13-08, 12:37 PM
Whether its a tax credit, rebate, or any other kind of incentive its still a bailout. Instead of giving the money to the car companies you're artificially lowering the car price while incurring debt by lost taxes. The one thing that hasn't been discussed is the breakup of these companies so that an individual line would not have the same impact. They broke up GM, Fisher Body, and AC/Delco. They also broke up AT&T. If there is any bailout, they should break up the marques and let them survive or fail on their own.

GM and Toyota sold virtually the same number of cars in 2007, 9.3 million. Toyota made 15 billion and GM lost 40 billion. I know that numbers can be made to say what you want, but even fudging won't make up for a 55 billion dollar gap.