: Crank pulley came loose!?



ND4SPD
10-19-08, 09:50 AM
Just got my 05 V back from the dealership after having the oil changed, a few other minor warranty issues taken care of... along with having a 6th gear vibration diagnosed (the tranny is going to be replaced in 2 weeks when the replacement arrives). Anyway, I was running an errand a couple of days later and got on it from 1st to 3rd and at the top of 3rd, heard a little pop. Next thing I know my temps are skyrocketing. As I pull into a parking lot so I can shut the car off, I find out that the power steering doesn't work. I manage to muscle it into a parking spot and shut the car off. Popping the hood I can see that the belt is off. Well, figuring the dealership just didn't tighten the tensioner or something I poke around a little more and see that there's a puddle of coolant forming under the car. Looking closer I see that the crankshaft pulley is sitting at an angle and looks like it's coming off. Looks like the pulley also took out the lower coolant line because there's coolant all over the place. I guess I should be thankful the pulley didn't shatter or fly off... but damn... wtf!?

rand49er
10-19-08, 09:57 AM
Whoa, this is the first one I've heard of. I believe this is indeed a rare event. Are you still on warranty?

As part of the maggie install, one of the early steps is to pin the crank pulley because of the added stress of driving the blower. As tempted as I was to skip that step, NOW I'm sure glad I didn't.

Naf
10-19-08, 10:10 AM
happened to me...but i had to pay...

Nutz
10-19-08, 02:40 PM
LS motors are notorious for loose balancers. There is a specific bolt available from the dealer with thread lock included. I strongly recommend buying it and following the GM procedure for torque requirements. Ignoring and re-tightening the existing one will probably loosen again. On C5's it hits the steering rack after working out. This is often seen at the dyno, as Rand mentioned it's suggested on built motors. :thumbsup:

Kmajecki
10-19-08, 06:35 PM
Happened to me too! Dealership changed my water pump while swapping my rear diff. 2-3 days later the damn thing fell off. I took it back to them and they wouldn't cover it because my crank had been modified (from back when i had the maggie). Had a different shop put a new one on. Im just glad it didnt mess up my crank

ctsv154
10-19-08, 07:24 PM
Are you sure not oil instead of coolant? The crank pulley is sealed in the timing cover so if it comes out oil will follow. After my cam install mine came off even after I put a new bolt in it.

rand49er
10-19-08, 07:43 PM
Sure didn't know this happened to so many guys.

ND4SPD
10-20-08, 08:27 AM
I guess I dont know for sure if it's the crank pulley... I'm guessing that's what it is because of it's appearance and location. The pulley did not come off completely, but is tilted at about a 15 to 20 degree angle and is in contact with what looks to be the radiator shroud. This is all from memory because the car is sitting at the dealership right now (I had it towed there after the thing came loose). Yes it's still under warranty and yes, I'm sure it's coolant. As I said it, or the belt, cut the lower radiator hose. Hopefully I'll hear from the dealership today and find out what happened.

CadiBlk
10-20-08, 10:52 AM
Pictures of what you fine fellows are discussing would be muchly appreciated.

ND4SPD
10-20-08, 04:42 PM
Pictures of what you fine fellows are discussing would be muchly appreciated.

I got a call from the dealership about a half-hour ago... they're not going to have time to look at it today, but tomorrow they should be able to get it in and look at it. If I get a chance to stop by the dealership on my way home from work tomorrow morning I'll try to snap a picture of what I'm talking about (assuming they haven't taken it into the shop and started working on it).

rand49er
10-20-08, 07:15 PM
... snap a picture of what I'm talking about ...Would love to see it.

C66 Racing
10-20-08, 11:57 PM
As mentioned, fairly common on LSx motors. I lost a motor due to this in my 02 Z06 at the 2004 SCCA National Championship Runoffs... before I knew about this problem. We had taken the motor apart for a rebuild prior to the runoffs and put the balancer on per the GM tech manual. No where in that manual does it say to use locktite. As mentioned, once loosened, the bolt doesn't seem to want to stay on and mine came off at high rpm on about lap two of the first day of practice. Also as mentioned above, the forward oil seal is right behind the balancer on the LS6 (and maybe other LSx motors) and I had oil spray all over the place. Because I was about 6000+ rpm when this happened, it damaged at least one of the bearings and the motor was toast.

After that happened to me, I talked to all my fellow racers and seems this was well know and they all asked me why we didn't use locktite. Would've been nice to know...

Hope you got yours shut off before bearing damage. I'd be very sensitive to oil pressure after you get it back. Lower than normal oil pressure indicates a wiped bearing. Don't run it. Cheaper to rebuild before you put a piston rod through the side of the block.

ND4SPD
10-21-08, 10:45 AM
Alright, stopped by the dealership and snapped some pictures. I apologize for the quality but it's hard for a camera phone to compensate for the weird sunrise lighting conditions plus a dark engine bay.

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc93/xND4SPDx/CTS-V/Miscellaneous/damagedpulley.jpg

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc93/xND4SPDx/CTS-V/Miscellaneous/damagedpulley3.jpg

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc93/xND4SPDx/CTS-V/Miscellaneous/damagedpulley1.jpg

I'll keep an eye on the oil pressure once I get it back. What, would you say is a pressure below which should be a cause for concern? I haven't had the car long enough to get a feel for oil pressures at various RPMs and engine loads. I may ask the dealer if there's any chance of bearing damage... but as I indicated before, there was no oil loss or spray... only coolant which is probably from the lower radiator hose.

rand49er
10-21-08, 11:07 AM
I'd say it would be a bit unusual to have caused a problem with the front main seal, but that pulley is sure shot to heck.

If it's ONLY the pulley, consider yourself lucky, IMHO. Could be the lower rad hose, too, but that's really nothing. Hope you're back up and running soon.

BTW, your pics get the general idea across just fine. Thanks!

CadiBlk
10-21-08, 01:08 PM
Thanks for the pictures.

Where does the before mentioned bolt that folks are mentioning located in those pictures? If it isn't shown in those pictures maybe a general location would work. I'm not having this problem, but if I or anyone else runs into it, some documentation for a reference will help once this thread gets buried in the archive.

This will help because everyone always does a search before posting questions. :thepan:

nmaier2201
10-21-08, 01:09 PM
Wow... so this is interesting... I was checking my fluids and after I read this thread I thought I'd let er run a minute and I notivced my balancer pulley wobbling a little a well... I can't tell if it's loose or bent. So I parked the car until I can have some more time to look it over. I'll try and snap a quick video of it... how do I get that video embedded on here? I'll pose it so you can see what you think of it. It's not a bad wobble....but still after reading this... it scares the @#(*$ out of me.

CadiBlk
10-21-08, 01:14 PM
Oh noes, if we keep this up, I will start having this problem.

The forumitis has me. Must go check engine, brb.

trukk
10-21-08, 08:47 PM
I was looking and looking for a pic that I took of the OEM GM crank bolt, next to an ARP crank bolt, but cant find it this second.

It looks like a galvanized deck screw compared to a work of metalic art. Do yourself a favor and get the ARP hardware.

Also, the GM balancer bolts are Tourque to yield, and can only be used once. The ARP ones you can put in and out as many times as you like. I wouldn't reuse your GM one even with locktite.

My $0.02,

-Chris

nmaier2201
10-21-08, 10:35 PM
Trukk: You have a 25% UD pulley. Take a look at my slight wobble (much less than ND4SPD) I'm not sure if I should be concerned or not.. it only wobbles .5" at most. Check out my video I make tonight and you guys let me know what you think. I know SLP makes a steel 25% UD pulley and ATI makes a 25%/10% AC pulley... maybe if the concensus here is that mine might blow up like ND4SPD.. maybe I should buy a new one.

Everyone let me know what you think before I gernade my motor!!


OlfvlcyAchQ

Or here is the link

www.youtube.com/v/OlfvlcyAchQ

rand49er
10-22-08, 06:14 AM
Seems like I notice it wobble a bit in the early part of the vid, but less so after that, then again maybe it was just camera movement.

Are you on warranty?

nmaier2201
10-22-08, 08:20 AM
Seems like I notice it wobble a bit in the early part of the vid, but less so after that, then again maybe it was just camera movement.

Are you on warranty?

I wish! If I was i'd just bring it in and let the dealer worry about it.

ND4SPD
10-22-08, 08:21 AM
It's an '06 so I would think so if my '05 is still under original warranty (unless his has high miles).

rand49er
10-22-08, 09:16 AM
It's an '06 so I would think so if my '05 is still under original warranty (unless his has high miles).:yeah:

nmaier2201
10-22-08, 10:09 AM
Salvage title. Owners manual states pretty black and white that I'm on my own. Otherwise you guys would definitely be right. 5yrs 50k miles standard on the 06.

CadiBlk
10-22-08, 10:11 AM
5yr warranty came with the 06, nga what?

ND4SPD
10-22-08, 10:58 AM
Have you tried bringing it in for service? They may not know it has a salvage title. Actually, if they're not busy they may not care... they may be more interested in getting the service dollars from corporate.

rand49er
10-22-08, 11:54 AM
Have you tried bringing it in for service? They may not know it has a salvage title. Actually, if they're not busy they may not care... they may be more interested in getting the service dollars from corporate.Geez, only 12 posts, and he's got a really great idea! :worship:

I'd give it a try. :lildevil:

nmaier2201
10-22-08, 11:58 AM
you know... that's a fantastic idea! I think I'll try it.

On that same note, you guys think I should try extending the warranty 1st? Pay some money and see if I can get a 100k warranty? then bring it in?

They can't say no if they sold it to me w/ a salvage cert right?

CadiBlk
10-22-08, 12:02 PM
I don't think anyone will warranty a salvage title. But worth a look.

ND4SPD
10-22-08, 02:33 PM
you know... that's a fantastic idea! I think I'll try it.

On that same note, you guys think I should try extending the warranty 1st? Pay some money and see if I can get a 100k warranty? then bring it in?

They can't say no if they sold it to me w/ a salvage cert right?

I would say no, don't extend the warranty first. There is a higher likelihood that if they do a title check... they're going to do it when selling a warranty. They may not check the title just to do a repair. If I knew anyone that worked at a GM dealership I'd call them up and ask and see if some sort of title check is built into their service database... you know what... actually I do know a former service writer that worked at a Chevy dealer north of here... I could try getting a hold of her and see if she knows. Since she doesn't work there anymore I doubt she'd have a problem answering a question like that. I'll try shooting her an e-mail right now.

nmaier2201
10-22-08, 06:13 PM
I would say no, don't extend the warranty first. There is a higher likelihood that if they do a title check... they're going to do it when selling a warranty. They may not check the title just to do a repair. If I knew anyone that worked at a GM dealership I'd call them up and ask and see if some sort of title check is built into their service database... you know what... actually I do know a former service writer that worked at a Chevy dealer north of here... I could try getting a hold of her and see if she knows. Since she doesn't work there anymore I doubt she'd have a problem answering a question like that. I'll try shooting her an e-mail right now.

Very kind of you. I appreciate it more than you know. Thanks so much. :cheers:

ND4SPD
10-22-08, 10:05 PM
No, problem... though if you're in a hurry I'd just go in there and see what happens. My lady friend is an old old friend, but leads an EXTREMELY busy life... so it could be a few days before I hear back from her.

CTSV_510
10-22-08, 10:53 PM
Alright, stopped by the dealership and snapped some pictures. I apologize for the quality but it's hard for a camera phone to compensate for the weird sunrise lighting conditions plus a dark engine bay.

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc93/xND4SPDx/CTS-V/Miscellaneous/damagedpulley.jpg

... only coolant which is probably from the lower radiator hose.


Umm...did you look at your UPPER radiator hose? It's darn near disconnected and thats probably where your coolant is coming from.

CTSV_510
10-22-08, 11:03 PM
OlfvlcyAchQ

Or here is the link

www.youtube.com/v/OlfvlcyAchQ

I know mine had the same little wobble that yours does before I installed the maggie. To be honest, I don't remember if it's doing it now or not, but I have spent a good amount of time checking on the belt travel with the engine running and I don't think it does that anymore. I'll try to remember to check it tomorrow.

C66 Racing
10-23-08, 12:03 AM
For the OP, "normal" oil pressure on LS6/LS2 motors (I've got one of each - LS6 in my Z06, LS2 in my CTS-V) is about 33-35 psi at idle hot, maybe low 40s idle cold, going upwards of 65 psi at high rpm hot (and I don't go to high rpm when the oil is cold). The low oil pressure I'm talking about is about half this. If I saw under 25 psi at idle hot, I'd worry. That said, the actual spec is really low, something like 7 psi per 1000 rpm.

For nmaier2201, I've seen Corvette pulley's wobble more than that. Not saying that I'd be comfortable with it... so that might not help! :thepan:

ND4SPD
10-23-08, 11:36 AM
Umm...did you look at your UPPER radiator hose? It's darn near disconnected and thats probably where your coolant is coming from.

No, actually I didn't notice that, but when I popped the hood after I got it shut off it sounded like the coolant was venting under pressure from the bottom side of the motor. Which is why I thought maybe the bottom hose had been cut.

Also thanks for the oil pressure information.

ND4SPD
10-24-08, 02:19 PM
Very kind of you. I appreciate it more than you know. Thanks so much. :cheers:

Okay, here is what my friend had to say about the VIN check and stuff...



When vehicles came in under warranty we used to have to run the VIN through the computer system to make sure it was still in warranty and that there were no factory warranty recalls that needed to be fixed and yes if people wanted to extend their warranty we would make sure that the car had a clear title. I am not sure if every dealership does it, but most should. Take care.

So, it looks like for sure they do a title check if you want to extend your warranty. But, it doesn't sound like they do a title check for repairs. Either way, it's worth a try. Just play dumb I guess. The worst thing that could happen is they say it's not under warranty (and I'm sure they would do that before incurring any charges) because it's a salvage title and you're out nothing.

rand49er
10-24-08, 03:05 PM
... Just play dumb I guess. ...Bring it to me, and I'll take it in. I can play dumb real good. :rolleyes:

nmaier2201
10-27-08, 05:57 PM
Thanks everyone. I'm going to bring er in and see how my poker face is. Extending the warranty is out, so if they don't want to replace it I think the safest bet is to get a new one.....and when I say "new" I mean a smaller under drive pulley!

I also apologize, I feel like I thread jacked this discussion. That was not my intention, I just thought he might want to see a slight wobble so we can all be wary... it's not something you check all the time, and apparently it can have some pretty devistating effects.

ND4SPD
10-29-08, 06:13 PM
I don't care that the thread got jacked a little... I'd like to hear how your situation goes. Got my car back yesterday... they put a new pulley on and we're cooking with gas once again.

ewill3rd
10-30-08, 07:02 AM
When a car comes in for any service the advisor is supposed to run the VIN through GMVIS. That will tell them if it has open recalls, service history, and also if it has a branded title or warranty block. In theory it will be caught every time. In practice it is often missed since it is so rare to see salvage title or warranty blocks. The advisor might miss it but you'll be hosing the dealer, not GM. When the warranty claim gets submitted you can bet that GM will catch the warranty block and deny the claim. The dealer will be left holding the bag since they already let you go without catching it.
If you are going to try it, do it at a dealer you don't like (like those are hard to find right?)

The pulley wobble in the above video is not abnormal, even though it isn't really pretty. If you have belt noise (squeaking at idle) or something then it might need to be replaced but it should still be doing its job, I have seen many worse.

The GM crank bolt is not reusable, the service procedure calls for using the old bolt to reinstall the balancer, then remove it and install a new one. As Trukk said, it is a single use bolt. The torque is pretty stiff on it too. If the balancer on the OP's engine has ever been off I'd suspect they didn't reinstall it properly and it came off. There are a lot of problems with that situation now if that is the case.
Things like that can damage all kinds of stuff down there.

Oh and finally, the upper hose is supposed to sit back from the water pump like that. There is a rib right there to stop the hose from going on any farther. I don't know why they did that but they did, they all SHOULD look just like that.

rand49er
10-30-08, 08:56 AM
Geez, it's nice having Bill on here. :thumbsup:

trukk
10-30-08, 10:19 AM
I was looking and looking for a pic that I took of the OEM GM crank bolt, next to an ARP crank bolt, but cant find it this second.

It looks like a galvanized deck screw compared to a work of metalic art. Do yourself a favor and get the ARP hardware.

Also, the GM balancer bolts are Tourque to yield, and can only be used once. The ARP ones you can put in and out as many times as you like. I wouldn't reuse your GM one even with locktite.

My $0.02,

-Chris


...The GM crank bolt is not reusable, the service procedure calls for using the old bolt to reinstall the balancer, then remove it and install a new one. As Trukk said, it is a single use bolt. The torque is pretty stiff on it too. ... :highfive:

I found that pic:

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/2871/017wf3.jpg


It's about $25 bucks, and can be reused as many times as needed, and isn;t going to come off:

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=ARP%2D234%2D2503&autoview=sku

-Chris

nmaier2201
10-30-08, 11:36 AM
Nice Trukk. Thanks for the link. You think this is the same bolt for the LS6 and the LS2?

nmaier2201
10-30-08, 11:40 AM
Thanks so much ewill3rd. That is priceless advice. Thank you so much for taking the time to spell it out like that. It is almost I shame I don't live in VA or I'd come visit you guys all the time. It is a shame the dealers around here are not up to par as you guys are. If gas was cheaper it would almost be worth a trip down there

ewill3rd
10-30-08, 09:30 PM
All that information is in the manual, they just have to take the time to read it. Some experience is required and I have had a few "lessons" along the way, thankfully I have patient and understanding customers and a boss who is always willing to "make it right".

I actually got grilled by my shop foreman for using a bolt on the one I did recently, once I explained it to him he seemed to understand.

Thanks guys for the kind words, always glad to help when I can.

C66 Racing
11-01-08, 01:56 PM
Amplifying my own cautionary tale, again, to this thread.

When my stock LS6 was rebuilt prior to the 04 SCCA National Runoffs, we did use the service manual procedure, and we did use the old bolt for the initial torque, then replaced the bolt with a new one. As can be seen from the above photo, neither the summit, nor the stock bolt have locktite on the threads. My crank pulley came off and I lost a $6kish motor. My personal feeling is that it is the process of removing and reinstalling the pulley that results in a less tight press fit. It is aluminum. The belt pulls the pulley in a direction to unscrew the crank bolt. With a less tight press fit of the pulley, I feel that this allows slippage of the pulley that untorques, then unscrews the crank bolt.

Several suggestions for those that pull the pulley for whatever reason (aftermarket cam replacement is common):
- Pin the crank
- Put locktite on whatever bolt you chose to use
- Use a new pulley
:cheers: