: How Cadillac is Percieved



majax
06-19-04, 02:21 AM
It has been a while since I have heard someone call a Cadillac an old persons car, I use to hear it a lot. Thank the good lord I dont anymore that always got on my nerves. Another perception which is still around and bugs me the most is people think they guzzle gas like crazy such as 8mpg. Probably they think this because they remember the ones from the 70's. Well it aint 1977 anymore and Cadillacs has one of the most adavanced production engines in the world. What are your opinions on what people think of Cadillac to this modern day?

Pimpin:coolgleam cars hehe?

Adam
06-19-04, 06:31 AM
A lot of people I know would much rather drive a Cadillac than any other vehicle out there. Nobody i know calls them old people cars except for those honda boys (ricers), they think they have the greatest cars ever built. I argue with them all the time. Then i show them what grampa's big lac can do. A lot of people say oh you drive a Cadillac i bet that is expensive at the gas pump. I just tell them believe it or not but times have changed and my car is a little more technoligically advanced in that area. (I'm not sure thats how it is spelled.) My Fleetwood gets a whole lot better gas mileage than my fwd Lincoln. If you drive a Caddy around here everybody thinks your rich. which is pretty nice. i work at a hospital and all the hot nurses want to check it out. One of em just loves how big the back seat is and they always ask me for a ride. haha. And to me and everybody else i know that drives or has rode in a Caddy just loves them and want to know where they could get one like mine. Not to many Caddy's are sold around here (unless its new) I've even converted a few honda boys into hardcore Cadillac fans. they always say they dont know what they were thinking driving a honda or whatever. to me there is nothing like cruising through town in a big body Caddy with the brains blowed out (sunroof open) listening to an old skool Dr. Dre CD and hittin a few switches. It just dont get any better.:drinker :coolgleam :yup: :burn:

airbalancer
06-19-04, 09:29 AM
When we got our STS a friend called it old person car, :banghead:
He rent s CTS for a trip to Florida, when he came back we said it was one of the best cars he ever drove.
The views on Caddy are changing slowly

Sandy
06-19-04, 10:36 AM
When I bought my 1993 60 Special in 1993 I too was told it was an "Old Person's Car" to which I replied, "Well, I AM OLD! I'm 47. Immediately, they'd back-step and say, "OH, THAT'S not old!!!" ~ When I bought the Mark 8 in 1998, they said, "THAT'S a gas guzzler" (It got 28MPG on the highway)!! When I bought the 2003 Town Car, they once again said, "That's an old person's car" ~ I said, "Well, I'm an old person - I'm 57. Immediately, they'd back-step and say, "OH, THAT'S not old!!" ~ so, what others percieve, really is inmaterial....Very few people can say, "It's a nice car, best of luck with it". It takes a special kind of person to say just that, and not, "For what you paid, you coulda had a ______________(fill it in, again).

Msilva954
06-19-04, 02:03 PM
I think that the Escalade is turning it around for the younger people that dont or wouldnt really pay attention to Cadillac.

elwesso
06-19-04, 02:12 PM
when its by itself, IE someone comes and talks to you.. They think its really cool, some poeple say its old people car, screw them..... They're not....

From 93+ they think its a brand new model. Hell with my Q45 everyone thinks its uber expensive and new. I asked my friend (who is into cars, kinda) and he said its gotta be at least a 99, and you had to have paid 12k for it..

94 and I paid $5500!

Caddy Man
06-19-04, 02:13 PM
i think its less about caddys being percived as old person cars, and more about them being american build quailty. lets face it, cadillac isnt up to par on quailty such as lexus is, many people i kno like caddys designs but if they had to buy a car they would go for a lexus, bmw, mercedes anyday over a caddy. Belive me, i get compliments from all my freinds, but they would rather spend thier money elsewhere.

BeelzeBob
06-19-04, 03:48 PM
Cadillac quality might not be on par with Lexus just yet - but they're getting there. They'll be at the same lever or higher in time.. It's only a matter of time. Reliability is practically RIGHT there, though. Reliability has improved big-time over the years. So Cadillac is headed in the right direction.

As far as how Cadillac is perceived - I think that those who are INTO automobiles realize where Cadillac stands at this point. Those who couldn't care less about cars probably don't realize the change. Then again, who cares about those people who don't care about cars? They probably don't buy very nice vehicles anyway...

ben72227
06-19-04, 03:54 PM
i think its less about caddys being percived as old person cars, and more about them being american build quailty. lets face it, cadillac isnt up to par on quailty such as lexus is, many people i kno like caddys designs but if they had to buy a car they would go for a lexus, bmw, mercedes anyday over a caddy. Belive me, i get compliments from all my freinds, but they would rather spend thier money elsewhere.
Thats what i hear most about caddys. Since Honda came out, most people just turned to Japanese made cars (Honda, Toyota, Acura, Lexus) because they were less maintainance(sp?) and low gas mileage, and etc. etc. etc. ALso, since BMW and Mercedes are a lot more accesible now adays, people turn to European made cars. Point is, the jap cars are a "better buy" for the money.

Also, another thing i hear a lot, is that people just dont like the design of the caddys compared to say... BMW or Mercedes. I was with someone yesterday and we saw a new CTS pass by and he said, "Wow, thats small for a Cadillac." Most cadillacs have gotten smaller, and i think that was another appeal, was that they were larger vehicles. Some people think that GM is really overdoing this whole Space & Art (or whatever its called ) design in their vehicles. For example, that new Chevy SSR looks like CRAP; like and el camino and a VW Beetle had a kid. yuck. ALso, *most* american cars have reputation for being cheaply made. Just compare the interior of a Chevy Malibu to a Honda Civic.

Who here would buy Chevy(Cavalier, Malibu) or Ford(Focus, Taurus) car over a Honda/Toyota(Accord, Camry, Civic) car???

elwesso
06-19-04, 03:57 PM
To be honest, with the SSR, I think they did it too early.. I dont think the general public is "ready" for styling like that.. Itstoo different

I like the art/science theme but I think the STS looks too much like the CTS... Its different, but its too similar... I know all the BMWs are the same, but thats just saying they are just as bad, and that cadillac isnt better.....

Ralph
06-19-04, 04:07 PM
I think that the Escalade is turning it around for the younger people that dont or wouldnt really pay attention to Cadillac.
I think the CTS has really helped break the stereotype also. :)

Msilva954
06-19-04, 08:31 PM
I think the CTS has really helped break the stereotype also. :)

It really has...just look at it......its been featured in the Matrix; along with the Escalade too, alot of young people see that movie and say "Hey, I didnt know Cadillacs were cool enough to be in the Matrix" Well, now they are and in my opinion have been for the past 10 years.

majax
06-19-04, 09:01 PM
I think Rapers and Pop culture in general has really helped.

strindl
06-19-04, 10:33 PM
Who here would buy Chevy(Cavalier, Malibu) or Ford(Focus, Taurus) car over a Honda/Toyota(Accord, Camry, Civic) car???

The new Malibu is actually quite a nice well engineered car. I drove one the other day...very nice quiet ride, solid handling, and lots of room.

ben72227
06-19-04, 11:58 PM
The new Malibu is actually quite a nice well engineered car. I drove one the other day...very nice quiet ride, solid handling, and lots of room.
Im not saying that chevys are BAD, but they just aren't up to par with jap cars. especially in reliability. I've always thought that *most* american cars were engineered quite well, (i kinda like the malibu maxx, it looks well designed and also the new dodge magnum) but as we all know, most american cars can't even try to compare to jap cars in terms of RELIABILITY. What i mean, is how often do you have to take a car to the shop to get it fixed. Jap cars hardly EVEr. american cars on the other hand, especially dodges and fords, are quite a different story.

majax
06-20-04, 01:45 AM
Chevrolet is pretty reliable trust me on that they are as good as Toyota almost. I would buy a Impala over a Camry any day.

ben72227
06-20-04, 03:00 AM
are as good as Toyota almost
Almost - key word - the problem that chevy has right now is the "american revolution" thing they've got goin' on. I think that their trucks are great, esp. the silverado. but would you really buy a chevy cavalier if you could get a civic???

majax
06-20-04, 03:39 AM
I would never buy a cavaleir but with the new Cobalt it may be a somewhat challenging decision. Dont get me wrong I think Civics are great!

airbalancer
06-20-04, 08:47 AM
We have a total of 3 cavalier and a sunfire from 86 to 2003
eachhad over 70000 miles on it.
'86 trade in for a Safri SLT had 4 kids living at home when and Ford wagon died
1996 Calalier, lease for one daughter to go to collage 120 miles round trip.
1997 Sunfire bought it for the wife that was a mistake as the sale peson also let her take out a 97 Grand Prix load, so in Sept of 98 she got her Grand Prix
and I drove the sunfire for another 2 years until I got my pick up truck.
1999 Calvier, lease that for another daughter to go to school100 miles round trip she had that until she total it in 2003.
I know a number of service people who is use Calvier and Sunfire for service work and very few problem.
Why pay $5000 more for a Civic when a Calvier is more then a good car.
I think they look much better.

bbozsik
06-20-04, 09:49 AM
Let's see... when I was a kid, the first car I owned was a beater 1984 Olds Delta 88. P.O.S.-but wasn't taken car of before me, either. Second car, a 1985 Buick LeSabre. The BIG one. Great running/driving car, and I got it for a dollar. Had to junk it eventually because of cracked manifolds and no money. I was in high school and my parents demanded that I pay for any car and the responsibility of owning one.

My next car was a 1984 Audi 4000s that was, IMHO a great car to drive, except the fuel pump kept failing and leaving me stranded until I could fix it, and it wouldn't start in the rain, and blah blah blah blah blah. Some old lady from Massachusetts smashed it and put it out of its misery.

My next car was a 1991 Pontiac Sunbird that I bought with 111,000 miles on it. That car drove from seacoast southern Maine to everywhere within 800 miles of it. It religiously went to NYC, Montreal, Boston (weekly for school), Buffalo, and yes, even the mean streets of New Haven and Springfield, MA. I sold it for 100 dollars with 220,000 miles with the original engine and transmission. And get this-- it only had 4 oil changes during that period of driving!!! HA! I was young and naive back then.

I'd like to see a Civic stand up to that amount of neglect and abuse. I could have driving that Sunbird for another 50,000 miles with no 80 dollar an hour import mechanics.:dammit:

1toycad
06-20-04, 09:59 AM
When I bought my 1993 60 Special in 1993 I too was told it was an "Old Person's Car" to which I replied, "Well, I AM OLD! I'm 47. Immediately, they'd back-step and say, "OH, THAT'S not old!!!" ~ When I bought the Mark 8 in 1998, they said, "THAT'S a gas guzzler" (It got 28MPG on the highway)!! When I bought the 2003 Town Car, they once again said, "That's an old person's car" ~ I said, "Well, I'm an old person - I'm 57. Immediately, they'd back-step and say, "OH, THAT'S not old!!" ~ so, what others percieve, really is inmaterial....Very few people can say, "It's a nice car, best of luck with it". It takes a special kind of person to say just that, and not, "For what you paid, you coulda had a ______________(fill it in, again).
Sandy, let me the first person to say to you. "Congratulations, that's a nice car, best of luck with it." :lildevil:

fast32vsts
06-22-04, 01:32 AM
I own a 93 Seville STS with 80K, I always get. "thats a nice Cad" "that Northstar is a good engine" and also " I wish I could afford one of those" I paid cheap for mine at 7K dollars with 70K on the clock and that is with a 3Year 30K bumper to bumper warrenty, owned by one man that is family of a huge dealership in portland that does not sell C ads. I also own a 2003 Subaru Outback loaded with all the options, I bought it brand new with 30miles and now I have 20K on it and found it also came loaded with PROBLEMS. This is my second JAP CRAP car. now I will only by GM product. I feel its hit and miss with any car. I also think Toyota and Honda are way way over rated. Sorry for the rant but its ben bugging me. :drinker
:hide:

mack1a
06-22-04, 02:26 AM
I have owned the following Cadillacs 97 Eldorado ETC, 99 Deville DTS, 2001 Deville DTS, 2003 Deville DTS which I still have and a 2004 SRX. I had 1 repair action on the 99, clock still running on the 2003 and 2004. The cars aren't babyed (love the sound of a Northstar at full throttle coming on the expressway).

My neighbor is from Luxembourg and was an automotive engineer. Everytime he gets arrogant about Stuttgart I offer to compare cost of ownership and car availability with his BMWs any time he is willing. He knows all about BMW service, I don't know much about Cadillac service because I don't have to. I also owned a couple of Corvettes (98 and 2001) I'm just too old to climb in and out anymore. Believe it or not, they make goo stable mates. Both with stabilitrack, both with GM quality (that is no longer an oxymoron) both fun to drive.

My dad always said you haven't owned a car until you've owned a Cadillac. guess what, he's right.

I once had a punk kid walk up to me when I was driving the 2001 Vette. He askd how fast it would go. I said it's supposed to do 165 and the only reson I haven't done it is I don't want to go to jail. The jerk said, is that all. I then pointed out that it had 2 CD players electric everything, heads up display, memory, power everything was extremely comfortable and price per performance or price per any other paramater was better than anything he could show me. And besides that it started and ran every day, day after day. I could say the same about the Caddys I now own (except Caddy is still behind the times and has no HUD. A little bigger, probably only good for 135 MPH or so but. Also enjoy knowing I'm not enriching a former WWII enemy. Sorry, I'm not a PC type of person.

Ralph
06-22-04, 02:36 AM
I have owned the following Cadillacs 97 Eldorado ETC, 99 Deville DTS, 2001 Deville DTS, 2003 Deville DTS which I still have and a 2004 SRX. I had 1 repair action on the 99, clock still running on the 2003 and 2004. The cars aren't babyed (love the sound of a Northstar at full throttle coming on the expressway).

My neighbor is from Luxembourg and was an automotive engineer. Everytime he gets arrogant about Stuttgart I offer to compare cost of ownership and car availability with his BMWs any time he is willing. He knows all about BMW service, I don't know much about Cadillac service because I don't have to. I also owned a couple of Corvettes (98 and 2001) I'm just too old to climb in and out anymore. Believe it or not, they make goo stable mates. Both with stabilitrack, both with GM quality (that is no longer an oxymoron) both fun to drive.

My dad always said you haven't owned a car until you've owned a Cadillac. guess what, he's right.

I once had a love god kid walk up to me when I was driving the 2001 Vette. He askd how fast it would go. I said it's supposed to do 165 and the only reson I haven't done it is I don't want to go to jail. The jerk said, is that all. I then pointed out that it had 2 CD players electric everything, heads up display, memory, power everything was extremely comfortable and price per performance or price per any other paramater was better than anything he could show me. And besides that it started and ran every day, day after day. I could say the same about the Caddys I now own (except Caddy is still behind the times and has no HUD. A little bigger, probably only good for 135 MPH or so but. Also enjoy knowing I'm not enriching a former WWII enemy. Sorry, I'm not a PC type of person.

You and I are gonna get along just fine. ;)

My Dad said something very similar to what yours said, and he is on his second Cadillac now. They are the car to own, especially back in their day, and today with the recent JD Power ratings. He keeps them a long time, but has several cars so doesn't put very high mileage on them. He's never had any trouble with the cars and his mint 1979 Nova has never broke down. He also has a 2003 DTS, and no one in my family has owned a Jap or German car. For some people (reasons you describe) it just doesn't seem right to own one of those cars.

I do like the styling of the new BMW 645ci though, :hide: but that's about as far as it goes.

Imprl59
06-22-04, 04:07 PM
Cadi's down here in the heart of ol' folks land are as common as cockroaches. A good number of younger (under 50) people buy them as used cars so I don't really get many comment on the car about it being an old peoples car.

I do get "You must be rich to afford a Cadillac" Usually my answer to that is "Why yes I am, why do you ask?" even though I only paid 4500 for mine and they are making payments on something they paid 25k for. I figure if they can be obnoxious so can I :bighead:

I also get the comment a lot about the car using a lot of gas. I don't know how GM pulled it off but I regularly get 19/26 with my '94 and I don't drive it that easy. PT Cruisers don't get mileage that good and they don't have enough power to get out of their own way.

Reliability is getting on my nerves lately. EGR valve, baro sensor, idle speed motor, $800 per each shocks and the radio just died. I'm a little disappointed that all these things have failed at 70k.

Roswell256
06-23-04, 09:17 AM
I bought with 111,000 miles on it. That car drove from seacoast southern Maine to everywhere within 800 miles of it. It religiously went to NYC, Montreal, Boston (weekly for school), Buffalo, and yes, even the mean streets of New Haven and Springfield, MA. I sold it for 100 dollars with 220,000 miles with the original engine and transmission. And get this-- it only had 4 oil changes during that period of driving!!! HA! I was young and naive back then.

Did anyone else cringe when they read this?? :eek: ... lol I hope my caddy lasts me for a while. its got 114 on a 94 Concours and I couldn't afford to get anything else if this thing dies. Its been pretty reliable the last thousand miles. I'm hoping that it keeps it up

majax
06-23-04, 01:54 PM
Yeah, that goes against everything i stand for haha. I wonder if thats a sin to treat your car like that haha?

RERM
06-23-04, 03:55 PM
Getting back to the topic (How Cadillac is Percieved), last night I went to a dealer close to my office (Foley-Rice Cadillac, Oak Park) and I got to see first hand one of the reasons Cadillac is not considered by all as "worthy competition". First, the dealer had about 12 cars in the showroom, only about half were new, over half had Vouges, fake hardtops, fake gold trim, pinstriping to make Dracula gag and wheels to make Biggie and Tupac come back to life (Biggie and Tupac are, to all older folks, a rap refference).

Now, if those are your thing, excuse me, diffrent strokes, for diffrent folkes. It's just that, mostly those are modifications only seen in Cadillacs driven by your local pimp, drug dealer or rapper. Well, the dealer has spoken, and very, very few BMW, MB, Audi, Jaguar, Porsche or VW buyers will feel wanted.

Remember, modify your car any way you like, my issue is with a Cadillac dealer doing it. :devil:

ben72227
06-23-04, 06:13 PM
Getting back to the topic (How Cadillac is Percieved), last night I went to a dealer close to my office (Foley-Rice Cadillac, Oak Park) and I got to see first hand one of the reasons Cadillac is not considered by all as "worthy competition". First, the dealer had about 12 cars in the showroom, only about half were new, over half had Vouges, fake hardtops, fake gold trim, pinstriping to make Dracula gag and wheels to make Biggie and Tupac come back to life (Biggie and Tupac are, to all older folks, a rap refference).
well RERM, (i don't want to sound racist or anything) but you have to look at who is buying caddys (for the most part anyways) - Old white guys that grew up knowing no other luxary car but caddy and black people who don't care about driving Audis or VW or etc. who just want a Caddy because that is the ultimate luxary car for them (at least down in here in the south it is).
So the dealer was probably going for the young black audience with all of that modification. After all, every rap star has to have a caddy (most of them have escalades with the tvs in the headrest and the subs in the back, etc.) and young black guys DO look up to major hip hop stars.so........

In Arkansas (where im at) there's only one Cadillac dealer (Parker Cadillac) and they tend to focus towards the old white guys audience. They play classical music in the showroom and the xlr is on a revolving platform......you get the picture...

Caddy Man
06-23-04, 07:01 PM
You and I are gonna get along just fine. ;)

My Dad said something very similar to what yours said, and he is on his second Cadillac now. They are the car to own, especially back in their day, and today with the recent JD Power ratings. He keeps them a long time, but has several cars so doesn't put very high mileage on them. He's never had any trouble with the cars and his mint 1979 Nova has never broke down. He also has a 2003 DTS, and no one in my family has owned a Jap or German car. For some people (reasons you describe) it just doesn't seem right to own one of those cars.

I do like the styling of the new BMW 645ci though, :hide: but that's about as far as it goes.
i dont understand how people like you think about things like that. ( i dont mean that in a bad way) im just sayin so you wouldnt buy a chrysler even though its an american name, but its owned my a german comopany??? the mercedes ML class is built in Kentucky, i bleive the Toyota Camry is also built in the US as well as many mazda cars (that ford ownes) The world is so globalized now, that that kind of thinking of 'buying american' dosnt work anymore. In my opinion, just buy whatever you like, who cares where it was made. If you like american cars better buy them because you liek them better, if you like japanese cars or german cars better buy those then.

ben72227
06-23-04, 07:47 PM
i dont understand how people like you think about things like that. ( i dont mean that in a bad way) im just sayin so you wouldnt buy a chrysler even though its an american name, but its owned my a german comopany??? the mercedes ML class is built in Kentucky, i bleive the Toyota Camry is also built in the US as well as many mazda cars (that ford ownes) The world is so globalized now, that that kind of thinking of 'buying american' dosnt work anymore. In my opinion, just buy whatever you like, who cares where it was made. If you like american cars better buy them because you liek them better, if you like japanese cars or german cars better buy those then.
My grandfathers are kinda like that. I think it has to do with two things mainly:

1 - They grew up with Ford and Chevy and AMC Ramblers and Dashs etc. before Hondas even existed in this country.
2 - My grandfather bombed Tokyo (he was a Doolitle Raider for those who are history buffs) and he has ALWAYS hated the Japs since then. To my knowledge nearly every car he's ever had was american. right now he has a ford LTD (the land yacht) and before that he had an oldsmobile. My other grandpa's dad was a chevy dealer, so of course he drives nothin but GM. Right now he has a STS, Corvette and a Silverado.

Randy_W
06-23-04, 10:45 PM
wheels to make Biggie and Tupac come back to life (Biggie and Tupac are, to all older folks, a rap refference).


We're old, not stupid!!!:D :D :D

Ralph
06-24-04, 01:37 AM
i dont understand how people like you think about things like that. ( i dont mean that in a bad way) im just sayin so you wouldnt buy a chrysler even though its an american name, but its owned my a german comopany??? the mercedes ML class is built in Kentucky, i bleive the Toyota Camry is also built in the US as well as many mazda cars (that ford ownes) The world is so globalized now, that that kind of thinking of 'buying american' dosnt work anymore. In my opinion, just buy whatever you like, who cares where it was made. If you like american cars better buy them because you liek them better, if you like japanese cars or german cars better buy those then.

:confused: Of course I would buy a Chrysler! Are you sure you quoted the right person? I also thought Chrysler wasn't COMPLETELY owned by Benz, just part of it? If people like my Dad have always bought cars with American names and never had much trouble with them, why change now?

Sure the world is globalized, but do you think it's "globalized" to a point where the money doesn't go overseas anymore if you buy a Toyota? Here is a question I asked a certain someone who never had the courage to answer on another thread, and I would like it explained. He also believed there was no difference if you buy a Benz or a Cadillac, here goes, I'll ask you. ;) If the world is so globalized, and all auto companies are so involved with each other, then if everyone (in NA) bought a Toyota, Honda, Lexus, BMW, etc. for one month it should NOT effect the American economy, right or wrong????? I say WRONG. It will have severe impact on the U.S. and Canadian economy because (for example) the domestic dealerships would have to close down because Ford, GM, or Chrysler would not be able to support/pay their dealers, and they would be laid off. This in turn effects and increases inflation because no one is buying American cars, so the prices might go up to make-up the difference. In some cases it goes down in the form of rebates, but that's what we are seeing with the recent gas price hikes, not massive unemployment, etc.

In some cases, globalization is not working that well for auto companies IMO. Look at Ford of Europe. They were 8 billion in debt recently (I posted an article on this somewhere) and it is having drastic consequences for Ford of North America. The Mercedes ML class built in Kentucky had a lot of quality issues I've read. So much so that Mercedes was embarrassed enough they were going to relocate the plant. (can't remember where I read this, perhaps it was just speculation) People can buy whatever they want, I don't care, but I think markets are effected by the purchase of specific products. Personally I believe the quality on the brand new Cadillacs is just as good as anything out there, even Mercedes! That's my perception of Cadillac. Just some thoughts to help you understand me I guess. :halo:

"If my Chevy aint broke, I'm not gonna fix it." :D

Imprl59
06-24-04, 11:36 AM
i dont understand how people like you think about things like that. ( i dont mean that in a bad way)
I'm not the person you were quoting but I am a die hard buy American guy. When I buy a product my first choice is always going to be to buy an American made product by an American owned company. Even if I have to pay more for the item this is true.

If it came down to buying a foreign car built in America or an American car built out of the country I would choose the foreign car as I don't agree with the "build it in Mexico because they will work for less" line of business thinking that goes on now. Unfortunatley that isn't an option for many things today. You can't buy a television that is made in America anymore. Same thing is true of most electronic things.

My whole point is I want my money to stay in the country and to go to American workers. I also want this country to still be able to function without the products of another country if it were to come to it.

Steve B.

Rolex
06-24-04, 12:45 PM
I think historically Cadillac has been perceived as a car for old farts. With their new advertisement campaign (and designs) they're doing a great job of attracting younger buyers.

As far as the rapper/filthy rich community...if you look at what these guys own: ie. Ferarri, Lamborghini, Mercedes AMG, etc. They also own a cadillac. Why do you think that is? My opinion is that in addition to the stigma of being the car for old people Cadillac also has the reputation for being a step above other cars in terms of luxury.

I have owned my Escallade for less than a month. When I was shopping at the dealer (in Arkansas) I don't recall ever seing any silver/blue hair little old people on the lot. There are tons of young professionals in NW Arkansas that also drive Cadillac. My personal choice for buying a Cadillac (other then stated) has to do with it being a GM product. I have (with little exception) always driven some kind of GM product, and reliability has never been a concern for me.

I will grudgingly admit that there seem to be lots of Cadillacs on the road with handicap license plates and blue-haired old ladies driving them. I do believe that nowdays that is the exception, and NOT the rule.:tisk:

1toycad
06-24-04, 05:00 PM
:confused: Of course I would buy a Chrysler! Are you sure you quoted the right person? I also thought Chrysler wasn't COMPLETELY owned by Benz, just part of it? If people like my Dad have always bought cars with American names and never had much trouble with them, why change now?

...

In some cases, globalization is not working that well for auto companies IMO. Look at Ford of Europe. The Mercedes ML class built in Kentucky had a lot of quality issues I've read. So much so that Mercedes was embarrassed enough they were going to relocate the plant. (can't remember where I read this, perhaps it was just speculation) People can buy whatever they want, I don't care, but I think markets are effected by the purchase of specific products.

...

Personally I believe the quality on the brand new Cadillacs is just as good as anything out there, even Mercedes! That's my perception of Cadillac. Just some thoughts to help you understand me I guess. :halo:

1. I also thought Chrysler wasn't COMPLETELY owned by Benz, just part of it?

Chrysler is wholly owned by Daimler-Benz.


2. In some cases, globalization is not working that well for auto companies IMO.

Benz put in their hand-picked management team in place at Chrysler and now Chrysler is coming out with truly innovative, awesome products--has anyone driven a 300C? The Japanese at Nissan-Infinit put in a Frenchman in charge of their company and now Nissan is also putting out some awesome products. Until he passed away that most American of all companies, Coca-Cola, was run by a man born in Cuba. My kids bought me a Canon Rebel Digital SLR. The camera is made in Taiwan, to cut costs. Yet, the camera is as good, or even better, than the Canon cameras made n Japan.

Globalization is the wave of the future, and not just for the auto industry. In the short run it may cause some economic displacements; in the long run, however, it will mean increased wealth for everyone.

3. The Mercedes ML class built in Kentucky had a lot of quality issues I've read.

Not anymore than the SRX (as posted here) has had. And what's that? Americans from Kentucky (or Tennessee) don't know enough about putting together a quality car? :hmm:

4. Personally I believe the quality on the brand new Cadillacs is just as good as anything out there, even Mercedes!

That's just an opinion, not necessarily based on empirical data. The new Caddies are just "too new" for anyone to judge whether their quality is superior to anything currently out on the road. :bonkers:

Sure new Caddies look, feel and even smell good. Time, however, will tell whether they can match the build-quality of other car makes.

Incidentally, "quality" is an elusive, hard to quantify factor. Quality, per se, is not the end-all, be-all that we like to think.

For example, during WWII, Germany made the most technically advanced tanks that ever roamed (up to that point) a battlefield. By comparison, our own Sherman tanks were puny, under-powered and under-armored. But whereas Germany could only manufacture the Panzers in small numbers, we could make 1000's of Sherman tanks. What if we lost 10 Sherman tanks for every Panzer tank that was destroyed in battle? At the end of the day we still had more tanks out in the battlefield than the Germans could ever field.

End result? We won the war.

Europeans (and for that matter, most people in the world, including our northern and southern neighbors) are not as affluent as we Americans are. Consequently, the average European's car-buying strategy is aimed at purchasing a long-running car that will last a long time and will not change much (style wise) over the years of ownership.

In America (the land of the 3-year auto lease) we can afford to (and want to) change cars every few years. Therefore car manufacturers are less concerned with long-term durability. That, in itself, has an adverse effect on a car's depreciation.

If you don't believe it, try this experiment. Go to any Benz dealer and ask for an interior trim part for say, a 1967 250SE. If the dealer does not have the part in stock, you can still have the part delivered to you within 48 hours. Now go to a Cadillac, Chevy or Chrysler dealer and ask for an interior trim part for, let's say a 1989 Seville. Their answer will be--go to a junk yard and see if you can get it from them. (Incidentally, the above examples are based upon real-life experiences).

Keeping a well-supplied stock of spare parts, even for aging cars, helps to: (1) improve the perception of one brand's quality over the other and (2) help retain the value of a car over the years.

American industry has done some wonderful things over the years. We were, and still are, the manufacturing leaders of the world. But there is a lot we can learn from others. If we cross our arms over our collective chest and claim that we are No. 1, and therefore have nothing to learn from others, then our position of leadership will be severely compromised.

Caddies are good cars, but GM could stand to learn a few lessons from other companies--Benz included.

Maybe then, good could turn into superlative and there would be no debate as to which is best: domestic or imported.

barge master
06-25-04, 12:32 AM
Politics aside,I think we drive Caddys because WE like them.Mine are not the same animal as some others drive, but I think we share a common thread of what a Caddy represents.I can't think of any one car mentioned in so many popular songs as the Cadillac.Whether it is a big 50s fin monster or an emissions choked 80s slug or a new Escalade, they stand as a solid piece of Americana.I've owned big American luxury cars since I was a long haired teenager,and some people admired them while others just shook their heads.That is still the case today.It all comes down to a matter of perception.I see people drooling over Camaros and Mustangs and various imports and I don't understand.To me they are just belly button cars that all look the same.A Caddy is somewhat of an egomaniac vehicle, but so is a Harley-Davidson,and look how many people, including myself, own those. It is not because they are the most sophisticated or fastest or best designed,it is because they have an undeniable aura around them that many find appealing.There will always be the crowd who want hybrid Hondas and Tauruses,and mini-vans. To them I say ''If I have to explain, you wouldn,t understand"

Ralph
06-25-04, 03:17 AM
1. I also thought Chrysler wasn't COMPLETELY owned by Benz, just part of it?

Chrysler is wholly owned by Daimler-Benz.

Thanks for updating me on that.

Funny you mentioning your camera, mine just bit the dust today! $120 Minolta automatic and now it's worthless because the plastic tab broke on the battery door. Much like new Cadillacs, like you said, give that new Canon some time and we'll see how it holds up because it's too soon to tell right now concerning quality. You are "perceiving" it to be a better product than one in Japan. :tisk: Time will tell.

Ralph
06-25-04, 03:32 AM
3. The Mercedes ML class built in Kentucky had a lot of quality issues I've read.

[color=black]Not anymore than the SRX

Does the SRX have this many problems? Or are they just perceived? And don't bother saying "time will tell for the SRX" because many of the ML problems are serious, an at lower mileage.

http://www.mercedes-benz-usa.com/ml_class.php

You might want to make note of the 4th post in this link. You may be able to get MOST parts for any Benz, (except this guy's cat converter that Mercedes changed the part number to and now costs $1,500! per side and on back order in U.S. and Germany!) but I'll take your word for it. :rolleyes2

Randy_W
06-25-04, 08:19 AM
"Incidentally, "quality" is an elusive, hard to quantify factor. Quality, per se, is not the end-all, be-all that we like to think.

For example, during WWII, Germany made the most technically advanced tanks that ever roamed (up to that point) a battlefield. By comparison, our own Sherman tanks were puny, under-powered and under-armored. But whereas Germany could only manufacture the Panzers in small numbers, we could make 1000's of Sherman tanks. What if we lost 10 Sherman tanks for every Panzer tank that was destroyed in battle? At the end of the day we still had more tanks out in the battlefield than the Germans could ever field.

End result? We won the war."


We won the war because we were better equipped to fight it, period! The Shermans were never meant to fight heavy tanks head to head, but often they had to. They were a medium tank meant for troop support, not tank battles. By 1943-44 our heavy tanks were faster better handling and had bigger cannon than anything the Germans dreamed of. There is a myth and I mean a MYTH, that anything from Germany is better engineered. It ain't so Bunky!! The Germans do build great stuff, they also build junk, like everyone else.
I hear people tout the jets the Germans used late in the war, big deal, they would fly ten hours between overhauls. They were very hard to fly, wouldn't turn at speed and were almost impossible to land safely! The Americans and Britts were testing jets before the war, just like the Germans, we new they were'nt ready for combat. The Germans were desperate for a miracle, so they threw out all the experimental stuff they had, hoping something would work. It didn't, we reduced thier cities and factories to shambles. Then we spent billions rebuilding thier country. This included much of the technology used at BMW and MB plants in the '50's and '60's. ;)

RERM
06-25-04, 11:05 PM
Again, getting back to the topic, some things that have to improve before Cadillac's image is fully revitilized:

1. As long as Cadillac dealers are hit or miss (Vouges, 20 inch spinners, crappy service) premium clients will go to Lexus.

2. Stop the discounting!!! it only cheapens the brand's image!!!

3. Keep improving on quality and reliability.

4. Use finer looking trim (specifically the plastic)

5. Having a Cadillac dealer sell Chevy's or other GM models out of the same showroom might not be everyone's idea of exclusivity.(not a major point for me, but it is for some)

majax
06-26-04, 03:31 AM
Do used car salesmen drive Cadillacs? I had someone comment on that the other day.

teddydeville
11-23-11, 03:47 AM
I'm 16 and I just bought a 2002 deville. I love it! I've driven many other makes and models I love Cadillac. Many people think only rich old people drive Cadillacs unless you have a different stereotype for wild modifications. Many different ethnic groups tend toward Cadillacs. Those are the main stereotypes. Alot of kids like the cts and ctsv. All my friends love my Cadillac though and adults always give me compliments.

Playdrv4me
11-23-11, 07:33 AM
I'm 16 and I just bought a 2002 deville. I love it! I've driven many other makes and models I love Cadillac. Many people think rich old people drive Cadillacs unless you have a different stereotype for wild modifications. Alot of ethnic groups tend toward Cadillacs too. Those are the main stereotypes. Alot of kids like the cts and ctsv. All my friends love my Cadillac though and adults always give me compliments.

I'm trying to figure out exactly what group of search terms somehow lead to dredging up a 7 year old thread for your first post... :hmm:

I~LUV~Caddys8792
11-23-11, 08:09 AM
It's like seeing the ghosts of Cadillacforums past!

Playdrv4me
11-23-11, 08:15 AM
It's like seeing the ghosts of Cadillacforums past!

Many of whom which were apparently banned.

Rolex
11-23-11, 08:38 AM
Teddy doing a little necroposting for his first post on CF.com. :cool:

:welcome: teddy.

cadillac kevin
11-23-11, 09:51 AM
I'm trying to figure out exactly what group of search terms somehow lead to dredging up a 7 year old thread for your first post... :hmm:
thats what I'd like to know.
no offense to new guys, but how exactly do most new people seem to dredge up many years old postings for their first post?

RippyPartsDept
11-23-11, 10:02 AM
per·cep·tion /pərˈsepSHən/
Noun:

The ability to see, hear, or become aware of something through the senses.
The state of being or process of becoming aware of something in such a way.

Synonyms: realization - understanding - comprehension




“There are things known and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors of perception.”
― Aldous Huxley

Rolex
11-23-11, 10:21 AM
thats what I'd like to know.
no offense to new guys, but how exactly do most new people seem to dredge up many years old postings for their first post?

Google is the culprit.

Submariner409
11-23-11, 10:30 AM
"Cadillac" perception is not easy any more -

How about GizmoQ and a super XLR, Submariner in a rumbly STS, Ranger in a Deville, others.........STS-V, CTS-V, Fleetwood, Concours, DTS.....yadda, yadda..............What group do all these fit into for "perception".

I edited the resurrection post............ #43

gdwriter
11-23-11, 03:26 PM
^^^ We all have good taste. Mine is most certainly impeccable.*














*Such a fun word that I don't get to use often enough.

SDCaddyLacky
11-23-11, 05:01 PM
Sadly when I think of Cadillac, it's not the big in your face Cad's of the past. I don't considering them impressive anymore. The last Cadillac I truly respect are the 93-96 Fleetwoods, I mean just pull one of those up next to a CTS, and see which one grabs your attention first. I do like 11 CTS styling to a certain extent, but the problem is that they're still too small of car to be considered a Cadillac. Once Cadillac brings out a true big flagship car, maybe we all can go back to remembering how things used to be.:D

drewsdeville
11-23-11, 05:42 PM
maybe we all can go back to remembering how things used to be.:D

Thankfully, I'm unimpressed by petty, meaningless attributes such as the external size the FWB brings to the table. Rather, like to focus on the performance and technology Cadillac, or any other car, has to offer (neither of which the 93-96 FWB offered over the rest of the Cadillac lineup). After all, performance and technology is what Cadillac has advertised for decades, not girth.

.......

OffThaHorseCEO
11-23-11, 05:55 PM
i will say this in every zombie thread/post

if the new member had simply created a thread like this he'd be called out for being a newb, not searchin, and double posting...

if he searches and refrains from double posting, hes called out for resurrecting a very old thread.

Submariner409
11-23-11, 07:06 PM
called out for resurrecting a very old thread.

Don't the Forum guidelines and rules recommend continuing an old thread with new questions or information ???

OffThaHorseCEO
11-23-11, 07:11 PM
exactly.

Submariner409
11-23-11, 07:17 PM
Yeah, that ^^^ ------- NOBODY ever goes to the dark blue bar ^^^ and studies the "User agreement / Rules" pages.

RippyPartsDept
11-23-11, 09:13 PM
.....maybe we all can go back to remembering how things used to be.

Thankfully, I'm unimpressed by petty, meaningless attributes such as the external size the FWB brings to the table. Rather, like to focus on the performance and technology Cadillac, or any other car, has to offer (neither of which the 93-96 FWB offered over the rest of the Cadillac lineup). After all, performance and technology is what Cadillac has advertised for decades, not girth...

um... what? where did SDCaddyLacky say that? the quote link does not go to an actual comment/post ... is someone stirring the pot?


--------------

as for the post resurrection: i agree with the :rulez: that new posts relative to old threads should be put under those threads ... the shock reactions to the resurrection is what usually leads folks to think that the newb is being chastised (which sometimes does happen wrongly) but i think that's just because it's so rare that a newb actually knows what they're doing

did that make sense? if you think not then just ignore it ... i'm pretty sure that didn't come out right

Playdrv4me
11-23-11, 09:30 PM
i will say this in every zombie thread/post

if the new member had simply created a thread like this he'd be called out for being a newb, not searchin, and double posting...

if he searches and refrains from double posting, hes called out for resurrecting a very old thread.

I think this depends on the subject matter of the thread and how old it is. Honestly, I can't imagine this topic having been called out as repetitive or uninteresting, especially if the member had included a personal introduction. It's also not the kind of technical post that has been answered over and over and over that brings up responses of "use the search" in particular.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
11-23-11, 09:32 PM
Yeah, I agree with Ian. If this was recreated yesterday, it would have been welcomed with open arms, because of all the new members to give their $.02. Most of the members that had posted were banned or had left since then, so it's all irrelevant and stale now.

drewsdeville
11-23-11, 09:34 PM
um... what? where did SDCaddyLacky say that? the quote link does not go to an actual comment/post ...


lulz. My bad. Never even noticed it did that. Still tweaking/getting used to this fresh linux install...

RippyPartsDept
11-23-11, 09:36 PM
what distro? i'm on mint 11 right now ... been loving mint for a few years now

drewsdeville
11-23-11, 09:37 PM
Mint 12, actually. Not officially released, it's still an RC. First time experiencing gnome 3. Not sure what I think of it yet.

- I'm also a long time Mint user, since "Gloria".

RippyPartsDept
11-23-11, 09:57 PM
yeah a friend of mine just text'd me the other day saying he was trying that out

i think elyssa was my first mint

i might have tried the D one before it but i don't really remember using it ...

SDCaddyLacky
11-24-11, 04:16 AM
lulz. My bad. Never even noticed it did that. Still tweaking/getting used to this fresh linux install...

Yeah I was about to say, Whaaaat?:hmm::D

DouglasJRizzo
11-25-11, 08:54 AM
Sadly when I think of Cadillac, it's not the big in your face Cad's of the past. I don't considering them impressive anymore. The last Cadillac I truly respect are the 93-96 Fleetwoods, I mean just pull one of those up next to a CTS, and see which one grabs your attention first. I do like 11 CTS styling to a certain extent, but the problem is that they're still too small of car to be considered a Cadillac. Once Cadillac brings out a true big flagship car, maybe we all can go back to remembering how things used to be.:D

The problem is what Cadillac will consider a "flagship" vehicle. Another ponderous SUV? Another V-6 front driver from the parts bin? Some generic "me too" design? Both Cadillac and Lincoln have seriously lost their way. Part of it is that the "euro stuff is always better even when it isn't" thinking of the car buying public - many of who have stated they won't buy ANYTHING American made no matter what or how good it is - and part is that Cad and Lincoln won't build an "in your face" luxury car, but the Euro guys will.

OffThaHorseCEO
11-25-11, 09:50 AM
Mint 12, actually. Not officially released, it's still an RC. First time experiencing gnome 3. Not sure what I think of it yet.

- I'm also a long time Mint user, since "Gloria".

Thats funny! I tried mint once with a Gloria. I highly recommend it. I've been a mint user since then as well

RippyPartsDept
11-25-11, 10:46 AM
Flagship mule spotted! (http://gmauthority.com/blog/2011/11/spied-the-first-shots-of-a-cadillac-omega-mule/)

RippyPartsDept
11-25-11, 10:48 AM
i love carrying my OS on a tiny usb drive and booting to it from any computer ... persistent live usb ftw

drewsdeville
11-25-11, 10:57 AM
Yeah, that used to be my favorite method of trying out new distros. Very easy. However, after a while, I decided I wanted all of my OS's local on my own machine, so I partitioned my laptop's hard drive as needed to run a triple boot - one Win 7, one mainstay linux, and one spare partition for playing with new distros.

Bro-Ham
11-25-11, 11:29 PM
You're right, dredge is the word. Still a good question.

Nearly 8 years later from when this post was originally posted and I think Cadillac still has lots of work to do. In this currently depressed luxury car market I think there is a desperate need for a WOW and MUST HAVE car to tickle the world that Americans can set the standard and make the very best car that can be dreamed of whether you're in bed waiting to get your sleep over with so you can hustle back to your garage to turn the key and take it out on a heavenly drive or a car that you dream of that makes you want to get your sleep so you can wake up early to get your rear in motion to work hard and hustle to find a way to have one in your garage.

I believe the time is right, is Cadillac going to make it happen? Put that vaunted V engine in a revolutionary Cadillac that wakes up the world and sets the standard once and for all. Our national psyche needs this car - right now! Quit diddling around Cadillac - you can do it! We're behind you! INSPIRE US! LEAD!!! :)

RippyPartsDept
11-26-11, 12:01 AM
i wonder how much the misspelling of perceived had to do with it... hmm?

DouglasJRizzo
11-26-11, 10:32 AM
Flagship mule spotted! (http://gmauthority.com/blog/2011/11/spied-the-first-shots-of-a-cadillac-omega-mule/)

We'll see..
GM has a bad habit of killing off or watering down good ideas.
Be nice to see something other than an Chevy engine, but that's asking too much.

RippyPartsDept
11-26-11, 11:29 AM
http://www.demotivationalposters.org/image/demotivational-poster/1008/pessimism-demotivational-demotivational-poster-1282018059.jpg

DouglasJRizzo
11-26-11, 09:27 PM
You must not remember HT4100 V-8's, 5.7 diesels, V8-6-4's and other assorted atrocities to the vaunted Cadillac name. GM is a billion dollar corporation with resources that are vast and engineers and designers that are talented. So why do we get transverse engined front drive Cads made from the GM parts bin? C'mon Chris. How many 'Vette powered Cads before they develop a proprietary V-8 that only goes in a Cad? They did it in the pre computer days. Now, all of a sudden, it seems to be impossible. How much unit construction garbage before they build something that's sturdy and bullet proof? Why is it that now, with cad/cam, finite element analysis, C.N.C., and all the rest, that we can't build the 2012 equivalent of a 70 DeVille or 70 Mark? In their day, those cars made a STATEMENT. Not only with luxury and prestige, but with road manners and build. You could whomp on it and EMBARRASS a MB or BMW.

The answer is right in front of us - as someone else has said here - it's easier to just give up than stand and fight. Lincoln is just as bad now. It's too darn easy to turn out milquetoast vehicles that sell a few here n' there than to really commit resources and money to building a winner. Could Cad and Lincoln build a car that could go toe to toe with a MB-600 sedan or Lexus LS? Yup. Will they? You know the answer.

Chris, I'm old enough to remember going to fancy restaurants and seeing Eldorados and Marks parked in the most prestigious spots. The Tbirds, Rivs and Toros usually got the good treatment too. The M-B's and BMW's were quirky odd anomalies with exhaust stains on the back, buzzy exhaust notes, and toed out rear wheels, rarely were they given the "front door" treatment.

Next time you see the zone office guy, grab him by the lapels and tell him to start building Cadillacs without compromise. While you're at it, go to your pal at the Lincoln store across town and tell him to start making some worthy competition. This way, we all win.

Bro-Ham
11-26-11, 11:01 PM
I think Cadillac doesn't have to even compete with Mercedes and Lexus. A Cadillac just needs to be uniquely Amercanesque and FABULOUS and we will embrace it! All those mammoth Lexus dealerships will be turned into health clubs or Wal-Marts. We need our American confidence back! All of us need to stand tall, our cars need to be made by car people who aren't just content to take the pulse of American luxury buyers but rapidify our all-American pulses to be exceptionally better than the best in our own inexplicable way! Some of us may have forgotten, some may not have ever known, all of us deep down know better! As they say on the lottery commercial: it could happen! Say your prayers tonight! GO CADILLAC! :)

drewsdeville
11-27-11, 12:10 AM
You must not remember HT4100 V-8's, 5.7 diesels, V8-6-4's and other assorted atrocities to the vaunted Cadillac name. GM is a billion dollar corporation with resources that are vast and engineers and designers that are talented. So why do we get transverse engined front drive Cads made from the GM parts bin? C'mon Chris. How many 'Vette powered Cads before they develop a proprietary V-8 that only goes in a Cad? They did it in the pre computer days. Now, all of a sudden, it seems to be impossible. How much unit construction garbage before they build something that's sturdy and bullet proof? Why is it that now, with cad/cam, finite element analysis, C.N.C., and all the rest, that we can't build the 2012 equivalent of a 70 DeVille or 70 Mark? In their day, those cars made a STATEMENT. Not only with luxury and prestige, but with road manners and build. You could whomp on it and EMBARRASS a MB or BMW.

The answer is right in front of us - as someone else has said here - it's easier to just give up than stand and fight. Lincoln is just as bad now. It's too darn easy to turn out milquetoast vehicles that sell a few here n' there than to really commit resources and money to building a winner. Could Cad and Lincoln build a car that could go toe to toe with a MB-600 sedan or Lexus LS? Yup. Will they? You know the answer.

Chris, I'm old enough to remember going to fancy restaurants and seeing Eldorados and Marks parked in the most prestigious spots. The Tbirds, Rivs and Toros usually got the good treatment too. The M-B's and BMW's were quirky odd anomalies with exhaust stains on the back, buzzy exhaust notes, and toed out rear wheels, rarely were they given the "front door" treatment.

Next time you see the zone office guy, grab him by the lapels and tell him to start building Cadillacs without compromise. While you're at it, go to your pal at the Lincoln store across town and tell him to start making some worthy competition. This way, we all win.

I won't say whether or not I agree or disagree with most of this, but I can at least understand where you come from on it. However, referring to the bolded, what do you mean? Unit construction is one of the most fabulous mainstream advancements we had last century. And an advancement it IS in every way, with little to no penalty. Just trying to understand that portion of the argument. '70's Cads and Mark, while they had their own merits, were far from the pinnacle of build quality and road manners (especially!) and can be bested by many unit construction vehicles on the road in these respects, especially those produced within the last 20 years...

Playdrv4me
11-27-11, 04:43 AM
A Cadillac just needs to be uniquely Amercanesque and FABULOUS

Define this, and I have a feeling you're going to end up right back at a Mercedes or a Lexus as it stands today. And if you tell me that this is defined by an '80s land barge, I'm afraid you won't be selling too many of them.

A balance needs to be struck between this land yacht period, and the joke that is the XTS. Something long, low and wide, with extremely high fit and finish, the finest tactile surfaces (within reason), and a RWD based layout. Chrysler has come shockingly close to this with the 300, but that's NOT a world class car. Take that formula and give it a proper Cadillac treatment, and you begin to have something worth crowing about.

Jesda
11-27-11, 05:15 AM
The future
http://2007-saturn.usa-used-car.com/wp-content/uploads/2007-saturn-ion-review-2.jpg

CIWS
11-27-11, 07:05 AM
This is what they're bringing ?


83121

That's a Chevy with a Cadillac grill.

mberisha
11-27-11, 08:10 AM
nice rims

DouglasJRizzo
11-27-11, 09:55 AM
I won't say whether or not I agree or disagree with most of this, but I can at least understand where you come from on it. However, referring to the bolded, what do you mean? Unit construction is one of the most fabulous mainstream advancements we had last century. And an advancement it IS in every way, with little to no penalty. Just trying to understand that portion of the argument. '70's Cads and Mark, while they had their own merits, were far from the pinnacle of build quality and road manners (especially!) and can be bested by many unit construction vehicles on the road in these respects, especially those produced within the last 20 years...

Unit construction cars tend to ride "light" and most don't have the correct feel, they're also not tough enough for livery, heavy duty, or commercial use. There's a reason why so many in the "black car" biz used Town Cars and it has nothing to do with fleet pricing. I want my luxury sedan to be that tough underneath, while it's as posh as can be inside. I also have to disagree with you on the 70s Cads and Marks, they were at least as good as the euro stuff of the time. While they may not compare with modern euro sedans (or even American ones) in road manners or build quality, if you put a 70 DeVille or Conti up against a 70 MB or BMW, the German stuff will not seem as superior. Interior furnishings, a/c units, trim parts, all feel "lesser" compared to US counterparts of their day. In fact, even the vaunted MB 6.3 feels at a disadvantage. Sure it could do 140 on the autobahn - if you gave it enough time and room, so what..? On US roads that 6.3 limousine motor didn't have the punch that a 472 or 460 did. It sure didn't ride as good as the US stuff did.

drewsdeville
11-27-11, 11:11 AM
So you are arguing that what worked in 1970 will work in 2012?

You want your luxury sedan to be how tough underneath, as tough as a Lincoln Town Car? My oh my, your expectations are quite low, sir. :suspense:

Bro-Ham
11-27-11, 12:47 PM
There isn't much magical about a Lexus or a Mercedes, they are the pinnacle of what exists now, but only because imagination hasn't gotten us to the next level. What Cadillac did in decades past was magic for the times they were intended. A relatively plainly styled German car, of which the Japanese pretty much copied, doesn't get me excited. The idea of thinking outside the box is something that is lost at this moment in automotive evolution, something that is hard to think about because we can't quite put our fingers on what it is that would make our hearts pound. More of the same bland Lexus or Mercedes cars aren't going to sustain or satisfy us forever. That's where the magic comes in. We need something to get us to the next level, there are people capable of doing this, they may not know it themselves yet since we keep using Lexus as the benchmark which I think is a flawed ideal. I'm optimistic it will come from America since we have potential to be great if we want to be, as we have proven in the past. :)

DouglasJRizzo
11-27-11, 01:36 PM
So you are arguing that what worked in 1970 will work in 2012?


No.. What I'm saying is that in 1970 we had the ability to best what was coming from overseas. We did it easily. We need to not recreate a '70 DeVille or Conti in the physical, we need to recreate the same "can do" attitude that made those cars great in their day. I do NOT see that attitude from either Ford nor GM currently. I see corporations in full retreat - running scared and believing that they are "through." I see "me too" designs and badge engineering. I see mighty corporations that used to do nearly anything, now sit on their hands while others feast at their table, or take warmed over platforms from other markets and dress them differently when they should be bringing the very best here to this Country, FROM this Country.

Drew, I've worked in manufacturing all my life. I'm an engineer with several college level texts under my belt and letters after my name. I know what I'm talking about and I know what I see. I don't like what I see - at all. I see two mighty car companies full of talent that are taking the "cheap n' easy" way out. I see luxury car divisions more worried about a gas guzzler tax on sedans than they are about building the right car and tax be damned - that's what entry level cars are for.

Oh, as far as "tough" goes - I've had both Broughams and TC's go past the 300k mark on the original drivetrains. I haven't yet seen a MB 600 do that.

drewsdeville
11-27-11, 03:18 PM
No.. What I'm saying is that in 1970 we had the ability to best what was coming from overseas. We did it easily. We need to not recreate a '70 DeVille or Conti in the physical, we need to recreate the same "can do" attitude that made those cars great in their day. I do NOT see that attitude from either Ford nor GM currently. I see corporations in full retreat - running scared and believing that they are "through." I see "me too" designs and badge engineering. I see mighty corporations that used to do nearly anything, now sit on their hands while others feast at their table, or take warmed over platforms from other markets and dress them differently when they should be bringing the very best here to this Country, FROM this Country.

Drew, I've worked in manufacturing all my life. I'm an engineer with several college level texts under my belt and letters after my name. I know what I'm talking about and I know what I see. I don't like what I see - at all. I see two mighty car companies full of talent that are taking the "cheap n' easy" way out. I see luxury car divisions more worried about a gas guzzler tax on sedans than they are about building the right car and tax be damned - that's what entry level cars are for.


Wasn't arguing any of this. Badge engineering? "Me too" designs? I agree with the above.

Just was unsure of where the "unit body sucks" claim was coming from, nothing more.

We've all seen cars that can run 300k on the original drivetrain - even ones placed in unit body vehicles. What does that have to with the body construction?

DouglasJRizzo
11-27-11, 04:10 PM
Just was unsure of where the "unit body sucks" claim was coming from, nothing more.

We've all seen cars that can run 300k on the original drivetrain - even ones placed in unit body vehicles. What does that have to with the body construction?

My disdain for unit construction comes primarily from two avenues, the first being that I don't like the ride qualities of most unit constructed cars, but the second is more important, I see body-on-frame as being tougher and able to withstand punishment far better than a unit car can. Hence the reason the Town Car/Crown Vic dominated the police/taxi/livery/funeral business for so long, its body on frame RWD construction could take a beating.

This is also the reason you don't see too many unit constructed trucks.

drewsdeville
11-27-11, 04:18 PM
I see body-on-frame as being tougher and able to withstand punishment far better than a unit car can.

I know, I know, you've mentioned this. Elaborate a little: "Tougher" in what way? More rigid? Laterally? Torsionally? What kind of "punishment" can BOF take over a unit?

Some of the worlds most impressive towering structures are unit construction - they wouldn't exist without it. Many aircraft are unit construction. Military TANKS, of all things, are unit construction. Even some of the strongest semi trailers are unit construction. All support MASSIVE loading and force that a dinky car or pickup will never see, and all do it in a very efficient manner. I'm missing the "tougher" claim.

orconn
11-27-11, 04:46 PM
When one considers that it is possible to build a very rigid frame and body structure using "unibody" technology, while at the same time keeping the weight of vehicle down compared to body on frame units weighing the same amount, I think that the efficiency of unibody construction for passenger cars makes the best sense.

Comparing todays cars with the passenger cars of the 60's and '70's is like comparing apples and oranges. The automobiles of that bygone era couldn't begin to comply with todays mandates for gas mileage or safety. Quality of construction and materials is another area where those cars fall far short. And while it is true that the Mercedes' (forget about BMW n that era) performance, for their volume (such as it was) models was way down compared to US car performance, their build quality and the materials used in their construction was certainly superior to those found even in Cadillacs. American cars were built to sell in the US Domestic market and catered to, from the cheaper models to the most costly, to what Americans wanted in the way of "luxury" in their cars. The European cars were designed and built to meet the needs of the new class of car buyers in Europe and Britain at that time.

Bro-Ham
11-27-11, 05:47 PM
Cadillacs just need to be Cadillacs again. We'll know one when we see it. :)

DouglasJRizzo
11-29-11, 06:40 PM
I know, I know, you've mentioned this. Elaborate a little: "Tougher" in what way? More rigid? Laterally? Torsionally? What kind of "punishment" can BOF take over a unit?

Some of the worlds most impressive towering structures are unit construction - they wouldn't exist without it. Many aircraft are unit construction. Military TANKS, of all things, are unit construction. Even some of the strongest semi trailers are unit construction. All support MASSIVE loading and force that a dinky car or pickup will never see, and all do it in a very efficient manner. I'm missing the "tougher" claim.

Rigidity is one factor although many unit cars have a high degree of chassis rigidity as well. The biggest advantage of BOF is how the structure can handle towing (hence most trucks are BOF) and abuse from ramming curbs, potholes, and excessive loads. No such thing as a unit constructed Mack or Peterbuilt - or F150 or C1500 either. You'll never see any of those deviate from BOF construction - why - BOF can handle loads, towing, and abuse better than unit can. I'll use the Crown Vic/TC example again, there's a reason why so many police/tax fleets were made up of these and pricing has nothing to do with it. The old rear drive, BOG "panther" platform could take a far worse beating than a unit constructed Charger could. Sure the Charger is fast. I've also seen them crabbing down the highway and I know it's been walloped.

drewsdeville
11-30-11, 10:18 AM
Lol?

After working in an autobody shop for 3 years, I can assure you, BOF will sustain damage from ramming curbs and high loading just like a unit constructed car. Believe me, if you slam into a curb in a Crown Vic or a Corolla, neither car will be rolling away on their merry way with no damage. IN FACT, BOF's tend to up on the frame machine seemingly far easier than a unit constructed car. But I agree, they are still at an advantage. Why? Because They are easily/cheaply repairable. Generally, when you distort the structure on a unit constructed vehicle (which takes quite a feat in itself), it's considered junk unless the damage is relatively minor. Usually, a BOF simply needs a tug here and a pull there and it's back in business.

Why are you planning on ramming curbs with your Cadillac anyway?

Also, you are quite the fool if you don't think cost plays a major role in fleet operations... Taxi and police have a business to run and a budget to meet - not a demo derby to win. Considering taxi and police garages have been stocked with panther-specific equipment, knowledge, and parts that are compatible as far back as the '92 redesign, it's no wonder they keep coming back - when the time comes, it's cost effective to just buy a new (identical) car and continue the tradition. This is why the heat is on between the big three right now for the fleet market (Charger, Taurus, Caprice). It's a new leaf being turned over, the fleet market is now open to anyone (panther has ended production), and whoever gets the initial sale is probably going to secure the market for years to come, just like the panther.

Look at the fleet vehicles that have serviced this country throughout history - they were far from high quality automobiles. Funny thing - they were all some of the cheapest large vehicles available in their time.

When it comes to business, it's all about maximizing the dollar.

orconn
11-30-11, 12:42 PM
Let's face it, with all the kudos the CTS-V has received, Cadillac has not really impacted the impression that their cars are suitable transportation for young yuppies that can afford to buy a new "entry level" executive car. While even the large, totally "haute bourgeoisie" senior Mercedes and BMW models are considered OK to be seen in and even drive (by some), the thought of owning or even driving a borrowed Cadillac is anathema.

I say this because of conversations I have overheard among young folks newly minted to their lucrative professions. My daughter-in-law is a prime example, having only recently come into a life style where status symbols are an option, she wrinkles her nose in disgust at the thought of owning a Cadillac, or even borrowing one of ours. (Of course this was the girl who adamantly refused to drive a minivan, or be seen in one, and would only accept a crossover SUV until she discovered, after forcing her husband to buy a SUV for her, that the "vanity minivan" wouldn't hold all the crap she thinks she needs to haul around her two young kids). Unfortunately I think my daughter-in-law's attitude is more the norm than the exception!

Jesda
12-01-11, 04:48 AM
I favor unibody construction for most passenger cars. Full sizers can go either way for me -- the largest Cadillacs had impressive towing capacity.

Of course, the latest unibody crossovers will do a decent bit of towing too.

Lord Cadillac
12-01-11, 11:19 AM
First, bringing back old topics is fine. I don't understand why so many forums shun this. There are opinions on this topic from members that are no longer here to share them today. Instead of starting a new topic with ONLY our current member's opinions - now we have one with ALL of them. That's bad?


Define this, and I have a feeling you're going to end up right back at a Mercedes or a Lexus as it stands today. And if you tell me that this is defined by an '80s land barge, I'm afraid you won't be selling too many of them.

A balance needs to be struck between this land yacht period, and the joke that is the XTS. Something long, low and wide, with extremely high fit and finish, the finest tactile surfaces (within reason), and a RWD based layout. Chrysler has come shockingly close to this with the 300, but that's NOT a world class car. Take that formula and give it a proper Cadillac treatment, and you begin to have something worth crowing about.

I don't believe any one automobile company can stand out from the rest the way Cadillac did many years ago. These days EVERYONE is building very impressive cars. Look at the Hyundai Equus. While it's the low man on the totem pole, it's still very impressive. And did you know the Kia K9 (their own version of the Equus) is actually going to be a better, more luxurious car? Think Equus 1.5. Equus 2.0 will certainly TOP the Kia...

I don't feel Cadillac should mimic Mercedes or BMW - or anyone for that matter. However, there are certain standards that luxury buyers expect. It just so happens that most luxury makes have this covered. Cadillac does not - for obvious reasons (building crap for too long and bankruptcy as a result). Are they on the right track? Sort of. They're building really great automobiles - most of them just lack power - which is something Cadillac had been known for through history.

We have to keep in mind that Cadillac isn't even building post-bankruptcy vehicles yet. The XTS is a result of the bankruptcy. Even the ATS, with it's shortcomings - not even released to the public - will suffer because of the bankruptcy. These cars will be mainstream models that SHOULD sell to enough people to allow Cadillac to build what most of us here are expecting. If I were 20 years old, I'd be ecstatic about this. Unfortunately I'm 40 and it appears I may not get to drive "my kind of Cadillac" until I'm nearly 60.


This is what they're bringing ?


83121

That's a Chevy with a Cadillac grill.

Unfortunately, right now, yes. Which is why you've owned an Infiniti and BMW since your STS-V. I think you're younger than I am. Maybe you'll get your Cadillac before it's too late.

Smiling Jack
12-01-11, 04:05 PM
...
...
....
We have to keep in mind that Cadillac isn't even building post-bankruptcy vehicles yet. The XTS is a result of the bankruptcy. Even the ATS, with it's shortcomings - not even released to the public - will suffer because of the bankruptcy. These cars will be mainstream models that SHOULD sell to enough people to allow Cadillac to build what most of us here are expecting. If I were 20 years old, I'd be ecstatic about this. Unfortunately I'm 40 and it appears I may not get to drive "my kind of Cadillac" until I'm nearly 60.



Unfortunately, right now, yes. Which is why you've owned an Infiniti and BMW since your STS-V. I think you're younger than I am. Maybe you'll get your Cadillac before it's too late.

Take heart: 60 is the new 30 !

I've been driving Cadillacs for over 50 years now, and I've lived through several dark periods of many years during which they did not make a Cadillac that interested me very much.

My solution: If you have a car you really like, baby it and maintain it well until they make one you really like a whole lot more. This is not hard to do with a Caddy, since with good care they will last a very long time, and the dark periods never seem to last much more than 10 years or so.

In the past, with this strategy you could have been driving a succession of the world's truly great cars continuously for a lifetime.

I could elaborate by examples, but that's a post for another day (and perhaps for another thread).

PS: Yes Lord Sal, I as a new member, I certainly support your position regarding the resurrection of old threads.
Keep up the good work.

orconn
12-01-11, 04:52 PM
I sort of agree with Smiling Jack. The first Cadillac I personally owned was a 1962 convertible, but my enjoyment and ownership of that great car was cut short by Uncle Sam's invitation to serve in the armed forces in 1966 after owning her for only six months. I didn't own another Cadillac until 1977 when I bought my "left over" 1976 Cadillac Seville. I really liked that car and while replacing it as my "business car," I owned it until 1985, and regretted selling that Seville even after 8 years of ownership. In the eighties Cadillac wasn't really producing anything I'd want to own, I had Jaguar XJ6's as business daily drivers during that decade. The performance of the of the Cads of eighties made even the somewhat slow first generation Seville look good!

During nineties I still was using the Jags for business, but had bought the best car I ever owned, my 1992 Alfa Romeo 164S. However, Cadillac had brought out a car I very much admired, for its' looks, but also for the performance and handling it offered, with the 1993 Northstar Seville STS. Not needing any cars at his juncture, we (my wife and I) didn't have another Cadillac until we leased a 2000 Catera for her business car. The Catera turned out to be a good car that she like quite a lot, but when the lease had run its' course she had retired and wanted to "pay cash" for something for her to drive. This started my experiment in owning an older used car on the premise that the cost of upkeep probably wouldn't be more than the first four years depreciation of a new car. Thus she came to own the 1993 Seville STS which we bought with 48,000 miles in 2003. In 2002 I had bought a new Mercedes and while it was OK I really wasn't all that impressed with it, two years later, being very impressed with the all round performance of the STS (especially for Winter driving) I sold the Mercedes to my son and bought a 1995 STS with 55,000 miles on it. My wife got a 2002 SLs with 23,000 miles on it after she had run up 100,000 miles on her '92 STS, and I am still happily driving my '95 STS which still has only 78,000 on it.

I could buy a new car, but to be honest, I just haven't seen or driven a new model, whether Cadillac or another make that I like as much. My experiment in buying an older car in good condition and maintaining it so that looks and performs like new has proven quite successful and I further enjoy the little patina that my cars accummulate as a special pride of ownership!

DouglasJRizzo
12-01-11, 08:13 PM
Why are you planning on ramming curbs with your Cadillac anyway?

No, but I have my build preferences for my stated reasons.



Also, you are quite the fool if you don't think cost plays a major role in fleet operations...

Save the name calling, ok?

Most PD's and fleet ops don't stock that stuff and don't do major repairs. The VAST majority around here just send the vehicles out to local shops for repair. Heck - the local pd won't even check their own oil.



When it comes to business, it's all about maximizing the dollar.

True, and it's cheaper to send a wayward vehicle out most of the times. Only the largest fleet operators maintain their own mechanics.

I've given my credentials and my reasons for preferences. I believe BOF/RWD to be the most rugged and superior for passenger car layouts. You feel otherwise, which is fine.

Smiling Jack
12-01-11, 09:50 PM
Douglas: I second your gripe about name calling on the forum, you old rattlesnake !

I suppose that '75, '76 Cadillac hearses were about the biggest cars ever made, and with the biggest engines - even if not the most powerful - and among the smoothest running.

I had a '75 Coupe DeVille with the 500 cu inch V8. I was a little disappointed with the power and fuel economy (by comparison to my pre-cataltic '71 with the 472) - that is until I had the '75 dualed out with large pipes and dual cats. That made ALL the difference.

DouglasJRizzo
12-01-11, 11:21 PM
Douglas: I second your gripe about name calling on the forum, you old rattlesnake !

I suppose that '75, '76 Cadillac hearses were about the biggest cars ever made, and with the biggest engines - even if not the most powerful - and among the smoothest running.

I had a '75 Coupe DeVille with the 500 cu inch V8. I was a little disappointed with the power and fuel economy (by comparison to my pre-cataltic '71 with the 472) - that is until I had the '75 dualed out with large pipes and dual cats. That made ALL the difference.

The hearses are about 22 feet long give or take a little - and fit in the garages with less than 8" of clearance! I love them dearly, and had to go through a lot to get them.

My favorite years are 70-76 and the 472 and 500 V-8's are very responsive to exhaust tuning. The early Cats were VERY restrictive and fitting a freer flowing unit(s) can really wake up the Cad engine.

SDCaddyLacky
12-02-11, 06:56 AM
Regarding the BOF Vs Unit Body argument, I'm kinda swayed to both platforms honestly, but unit body seems to be the choice for everything. For instance, technology today, and the advancements in the automotive industry, have made using unit body constructed cars the best choice even for the worlds most luxurious cars. Unit Body vehicles today are even more rigid and strong than the old BOF cars of the past. After driving a few new cars, I can tell you that they are very quiet on the road, they drive and ride really nice and very feel tightly put together.

But if ever in an accident, I'd rather be inside a BOF'er for protection.

I also liked 70's Cadillac's at one point, and still do to certain extent, but the 60's Cad's were so much better in terms of styling, quality and overall feeling. I remember my 72 Deville rattled like crazy when going over pot holes. It was a smooth riding car, but not completely isolating. My 68 Coupe Deville actually rode better, and felt a little higher in quality compared to the 72. Not sure why, but it could be that the 72 was not constructed as well.

I also own a 61 Lincoln Continental that has no frame underneath it, it's Unit-Body constructed! Crazy right? But it's true. All 60's Continental's were Unit Body, and let me tell you, these cars are more solid and ride much better than any BOF Caddy I have ever driven. They are built like tanks, and feel extremely tight, no creaks or rattles from anything. It's interesting because Lincoln at the time wanted to save weight and money by going with Unit Construction, they also knew that unit body was a better design and way to create a more solid and better riding car. Well after everything was all said and done, the Continentals weighed over 5,000lbs, the verts weighing even more at around 5,400-5,500lbs which added balancing weights, because of the lack of solid center pillers for support. All that weight actually added additional benefits to the car because it showed that Lincolns build quality was ahead of the pack in those days.

My point is, as much as I love my BOF 94 Fleetwood, I am starting to realize that many new cars built in the last 5 years ride better than the Fleetwood. I wouldn't mind Cadillac building a new huge bad ass Unit-Body land yacht in the future, as long as it drive's great and completely isolates passengers from the stresses of the outside world, I will be perfectly fine with it.

Look at the S Class, 7 Series, and even a Rolls Royce Phantom, they are all Unit's. Those cars have so much isolation materials built into them, including air ride supensions, that I'am sure you would totally forget about your old school Caddy at least for a day or 2....... possibly forever after getting into something of that class.

At the same time, whatever draws and holds your attention no matter how much better another car may be on paper, if you don't have a connection to the car, what's the point of owning it? I love my cars because they are different, you don't see them everyday, and they make a statement wherever I go. How many new cars built today can you name that truly make a statement? I can't. They're all still too small, look cheap as hell, even the luxury one's priced at $60,000-$80,000 don't feel like they are worth that much, no freaking way!