: GM/Chrylser merger to happen before Halloween?



Blackout
10-17-08, 10:45 AM
http://jalopnik.com/5064934/gm+chrysler-merger-rumor-roundup-deal-to-be-done-by-halloween-mandatory-two-month-furlough-for-chrysler-engineers

I~LUV~Caddys8792
10-17-08, 10:56 AM
Whoa! That's crazy! I'm second guessing the credibility though. The WSJ's source seems rather fishy.

Sandy
10-17-08, 11:48 AM
I think - I'm pretty sure - it's all true. It's Sad.
What I cannot understand is that the under 30 year olds all post nasties at Chrysler Corp. It seems they all hate MOPAR. Why ?

Down through the years Chry. Corp. were leaders in the Automotive industry, being the first to install Pwr. Steering & Air Conditioning in their cars and cars like the Imperial, The Chrysler 300 Legendary Letter Car Series and the Dodge Chargers, the Hemi Engines, the 440 Six-Pacs and low priced front wheel drive cars to America. After buying AMC, ownership of Jeep.

Why do so many hate and scribe "Good Riddance" towards Chrysler?

I'd think they'd hate the Japanese cars for killing the USA car manufacturers markets, and sending the $$$ overseas.

I guess the belief of being true to America and it's corporations, its industries, (which really are IT'S people) is wasted on youth.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
10-17-08, 12:13 PM
I guess the belief of being true to America and it's corporations, its industries, (which really are IT'S people) is wasted on youth.

Yeah, that's probably true. "Only Buying Domestic" doesn't hold much water for a lot of people my generation, and that's rather tragic.

But on the other hand Sandy, a good number of the pheomenal (sp?) Chrysler cars you mentioned were before our times, and are still widely admired by my generation...the timeless, always desirable Challengers, Cudas, Chargers, Road Runners, etc etc...they're still hot, as you can see by market pricing...but so much stuff that Chrysler made during the '80s, '90s and today is...so bland and undesirable, with the exception of the Turbo Dodges, Vipers, Stealth R/Ts, Eagle Talons, 300M & 300C, new Challengers, New Chargers, etc etc.... For a long time, Chrysler didn't really have as many desirable cars as GM or Ford did, and now they're coming back kickin' though! :thumbsup:

Blackout
10-17-08, 12:18 PM
I think - I'm pretty sure - it's all true. It's Sad.
What I cannot understand is that the under 30 year olds all post nasties at Chrysler Corp. It seems they all hate MOPAR. Why ?

Down through the years Chry. Corp. were leaders in the Automotive industry, being the first to install Pwr. Steering & Air Conditioning in their cars and cars like the Imperial, The Chrysler 300 Legendary Letter Car Series and the Dodge Chargers, the Hemi Engines, the 440 Six-Pacs and low priced front wheel drive cars to America. After buying AMC, ownership of Jeep.

Why do so many hate and scribe "Good Riddance" towards Chrysler?

I'd think they'd hate the Japanese cars for killing the USA car manufacturers markets, and sending the $$$ overseas.

I guess the belief of being true to America and it's corporations, its industries, (which really are IT'S people) is wasted on youth.

The main reason being that the cars that appealed to the under 30 crowd never saw the light of day. I've spent 5 years on a MOPAR forum and for the people in the under 30 crowd they were ready to see the ME-412 but that didn't happen, then the SRT-4 Caliber was slower and handled worse then the SRT-4 Neon it replaced, then there was the Dodge Razor that was supposed to give us a RWD affordable sports car but that didn't happen and Hyundai was the first ones to answer that call. The 300's and Charger's really do not appeal to the under 30 crowd except for the SRT series and those are usually out of the price range for the average under 30 year old person. So for the young people there really isn't much of anything in MOPAR's lineup that appeals to them

Cadillacboy
10-17-08, 02:42 PM
First Daimler - Benz and now it's GM's row ? No ,I hope that won't happen

LS1Mike
10-17-08, 03:11 PM
I have never been quiet sure what the appeal is of the Civic or the like to the 30 and under crowd.
What is exciting about a Civic, Accord or Corrolla, unless you dump tons of cash into it?
You could have got an affordable F-body with a V8 and RWD or you can still get an Affordalble V8 RWD Mustang that eats and continues to crap Civics daily.
Mopar has not done much recently in the relm of that sort of stuff. The SRT-4 was pretty cool and could move out well. The Caliber, not so much.
Perception is a weird thing.

MauiV
10-17-08, 03:26 PM
I cant think of a Chrysler made in my lifetime, other than a Viper hardtop, that I would own. The Charger SRT8 has nice lines but I dont find it worth the money and HATE the ridiculous 1970 colors they are available in. 300's have become the iconic Ghetto Fabulous mobile and I wouldnt be caught dead driving one. Challengers are HUGE and overrated IMO and I dont like the lines of a Ram truck and I sure as hell will never own a mini-van. The electric car concept they released shows promise but I doubt it will look anything like that if it ever sees the light of a showroom floor.

Daytona or Superbird I would own though.

The Jeep badge is the most valuable thing GM can get out of this aquisition.

dkozloski
10-17-08, 03:41 PM
Just before and after WWII, Chrysler had the most miserable flathead motors and rinky dink semi-auto transmissions imaginable. Engineering was way behind the curve. When they finally tried to modernize their line they jumped into the unibody world and turned out a whole generation of cars that guaranteed that there would be a whole generation of owners that would never own another Chrysler product as long as they lived. They did put out some interesting cars in the late 60s and 70s. Unable to stand success they proceeded to drive nails in their own coffin with the "K" cars with cardboard interiors, vestiges of which remain to the present time. They lost their MoJo twenty years ago and have been floundering ever since. There were a few accidental successes but they were most remarkable because of their rarity.

Spittin Game
10-17-08, 03:48 PM
The 300's and Charger's really do not appeal to the under 30 crowd except for the SRT series and those are usually out of the price range for the average under 30 year old person. So for the young people there really isn't much of anything in MOPAR's lineup that appeals to them

It is the 300's, the Chargers and the Magnums that appealed to the under 30 crowd. Do you really think your average 25 year old would really want a Caliber or a Mini Van or a Sebring (yuck!)? The LX cars are what people under 30 love about Chrysler and Dodge.

dkozloski
10-17-08, 03:54 PM
There is no way possible to gracefully explain away junk like the Tiptoe Matic and Gyro Matic transmissions. Late 50s and early 60s unibody cars rusted out and fell apart before your eyes. Virtually every early hemi engine I ever saw was in the shop having some repair or other made to the valve train. The wedge motors were a great leap forward for the Chrysler bottom line. The 50s 300s were world beaters but quickly deteriorated to mere silouettes of their former greatness. About the time they would have a success they couldn't stand it and they'd dilute all the good stuff out with junk.

dkozloski
10-17-08, 04:07 PM
What really pissed a lot of people off was that you could go to a Chevy dealer and order the same stuff that the winners at the drag strip had. If you went to the Chrysler dealer and ordered a cross ram manifold wedge motor car, what you got superfically resembled what the big name guys at the drag strip had but a close examination showed some very important differences in the length of the ram tubes and the carburetors and there was no way that Joe Sixpack could buy this stuff. Ford made the same mistake. The big success of the Chevy small block was not so much the basic design but the idea that when you went to your local dealer parts man there was no secret stuff held back for the big guys that the little guy couldn't buy. Ford or Chrysler neither one could grasp this concept and never have. Buick was the same way as Chevy. When Buick was big in NASCAR you could buy some of the most exotic stuff you ever saw right across the parts counter like magnesium rocker arms.

jey
10-17-08, 04:28 PM
I think - I'm pretty sure - it's all true. It's Sad.
What I cannot understand is that the under 30 year olds all post nasties at Chrysler Corp. It seems they all hate MOPAR. Why ?

I don't hate Mopar, but I am a GM boy first - grew up with GM vehicles, learned to drive on one, now own two GM cars of my own.

As far as domestics go, Chrysler has the #2 spot in my heart. I've always liked their design - everything from the Intrepid when it came out with the cab-forward design to the Ram truck. My dream car when I was in high school was a 6-speed turbo Dodge Stealth.

My current favourite is the Jeep Grand Cherokee - given $35k to spend on a car I'd pick up a 4x4 Overland. I was very close to buying a new Neon ACR once - good thing I didn't because my wife hates the Neon with a passion and she would have never dated me if I drove one.

Ford is the domestic company that I have no feelings for whatsoever. Maybe the Mustang, but now that the Camaro is back I have nothing to say about the Mustang anymore. The fact that most of the Ford dealers in my area are crappy just adds to the dullness.

I have a couple of friends (under 30) who just bought new Dodge trucks. I think the young people who hate Mopar are the sport compact fans, like Blackout said, who continue to be disappointed year after year with no good replacement for the Neon SRT-4. Even the non-performance oriented young people have nothing - I think the Challenger will be the first coupe they'll have had in years?

Chrysler's not the only one though - Ford continues to underwhelm fans too, especially when you see what they're making for the Europeans.

Caddyshack100
10-17-08, 06:27 PM
Koz is right on the money about Chrysler, I had a 69 Charger and a 73 charger along with a 78 Lebaron (remember the 318 lean burn...) yech, both those chargers I would lust for today, its too bad that they rusted into ingots. We forget today how horrible those cars were then, handling, braking, and of course the weight of them. Chrysler signed their own death warrant with the disposable transmissions in their product line, it was not uncommon for a minivan to have 3 trannies throughout its life. I do not think GM needs that baggage unless they can put their own 4T65E in them. GM needs to keep to the path they are following, albeit with some changes, Have GMC and Chevy truck mold into one division, keep Cadillac separate and do not let other bad ideas cloud the caddy vision, ie using the horrible Acadia, Enclave platform for the new SRX or Escalade. GM if gets Chrysler, should drop the 300 series, charger and the 'low' Caliber, keep the challenger since it looks like the Camaro will be delayed pending a lawsuit outcome, and keep the Ram pickup and slide some versions into the GMC lineup. Drop the rest.

caddycruiser
10-17-08, 08:06 PM
I think - I'm pretty sure - it's all true. It's Sad.
What I cannot understand is that the under 30 year olds all post nasties at Chrysler Corp. It seems they all hate MOPAR. Why ?

From my view? In the past few years, or a little further back, the products they've been plopping out have been not only subpar, but extremely under even the bare minimum requirements, making one wonder WTF. Yes, some cool new toy features--a Chrysler trademark--but after the 300, styling on everything became an absolute mess, their interiors became the worst in the business by far in terms of quality, the driving dynamics pulled no cards and continually cause professional reviewers and the everyday Joe to question "did anyone actually drive this, like this for more than an hour?", etc., etc.

They've just fallen so far under the bridge in product, especially mainstream let alone "exciting" stuff, that a huge majority lost respect or care for what they put out anymore. Not all is lost, with things like the new Ram or, still, the LX cars that continue to be winners after years on the market, but so much is still such a mess and subpar, it's a deep hole to dig out of.

But GM taking them on? Even when I read about how they actually have cash that GM could use, it's still BAFFLING as to the "yeah...then what?" for what they heck, in the world, would an already too big and too extended of a company as GM do with yet another under their belt, except have some dough for a few days and then really explode in a bad way? GM, Ford, and Chrysler have always brought something different to the domestic table, and even when one, two, or all of them are in great trouble, keeping them to somewhat of their identity seems like the only plan to me.

I've read article after article on this, and I still just don't understand how--aside from the initial cash availability--GM would do anything positive with another disaster of a company in its belt.

I keep hoping it's all just a dumb rumor, and will still do so, until something happens and I freak out after hearing it...

jey
10-17-08, 08:08 PM
Have GMC and Chevy truck mold into one division, keep Cadillac separate and do not let other bad ideas cloud the caddy vision, ie using the horrible Acadia, Enclave platform for the new SRX or Escalade. GM if gets Chrysler, should drop the 300 series, charger and the 'low' Caliber, keep the challenger since it looks like the Camaro will be delayed pending a lawsuit outcome, and keep the Ram pickup and slide some versions into the GMC lineup. Drop the rest.

From what I've read the new SRX is going to be on a separate platform, shared with the new Saab 9-4X. Hopefully they will keep performance a priority and it will be a good premium platform.

There are some other things worth keeping from Chrysler. How about the Dodge Caravan, the only American minivan left. Keep the Jeep Wrangler and Grand Cherokee too...

Playdrv4me
10-18-08, 03:33 AM
Chrysler has some awesome hits right now...

RIGHT NOW.

But that's the problem. Chrysler is an on again/off-again one trick pony just like Dkoz said. Maybe I am just in a sour mood, but honestly I'm ready to just see the whole stupid enterprise fold into GM rather than continue these tumultuous UPS and DOWNS through the years. From owner to owner to owner, this debacle and that debacle. Let's be completely honest with ourselves... Chrysler has *never* stood on it's own two feet with the strength and resilience of Ford and GM. Everytime Chrysler pops out a mistake, it shows negatively on the ENTIRE domestic industry and perpetuates stigmas about shitty interiors, safety problems, or unreliable garbage that brings everyone else down slowly but surely.

Sandy, I realize that I could NEVER change your mind about the loss of a great American brand, but alot of people fail to see the harm Chrysler has caused to the perception of the entire domestic industry over the years. It's kind of a backwards way to see through the looking glass.

Outside of Jeep, which really *IS* a precious Chrysler commodity (and really isn't a core Chrysler brand, rather than a clever series of acquisitions itself), and the VIPER brand, I'm just ready to see Chrysler's strongest employees and engineers re-allocated to other outlets, and finally have GM or Ford dismantle the rest or transform it into a usable resource.

Aron9000
10-18-08, 04:39 AM
Chrysler owes much of its current woes to its pitful FWD lineup. The midsize FWD family sedans are worst in the biz.

The Dodge Caliber is an ugly, oversized, underperforming, poor mpg, shitty interior, turd in the compact car market. It has a decent amount of cargo space, but its no more spacious than a Mazda 3, Honda Fit, Toyota Xb, Fit, Corolla, HHR, or even the better looking, higher quality, 8 year old PT cruiser.

That little shitbox is actually a much more horrendous car in terms of engineering, styling, packaging, performance, and mpg than a 2000 PT Cruiser. Despite the PT Cruiser being 8 years old, given a choice between a free brand new Caliber and a free, but very nice 80k mile PT Cruiser, I'd prefer that old PT Cruiser, assuming both were manual transmission.

Blackout
10-18-08, 09:47 AM
It is the 300's, the Chargers and the Magnums that appealed to the under 30 crowd. Do you really think your average 25 year old would really want a Caliber or a Mini Van or a Sebring (yuck!)? The LX cars are what people under 30 love about Chrysler and Dodge.

Huh? That's a first if I've ever heard it. The 300's, Chargers, and Magnums are popular for the inner city under 30 crowd because all the rappers and whatnot have them so they are the newest ghetto fabulous cruisers. I've taken a 300 on a road trip to Outer Banks, NC and at first I was liking the car but after a few hours behind the wheel the power was pathetic, the seats were just downright uncomfortable, and the driver ergonomics were pathetic at best. The only versions of those cars are the SRT series but like I said, for the average joe 30 year old or younger it's out of their price range. All the under 30 year old crowd cares about is what is the fastest for the cheapest. That's why the STi's, Evo's, MS3, Cobalt SS, etc are so popular. The other thing that is putting a bad taste in the under 30 crowd is the lack of products that appeal to them. The Dodge Razor was a vehicle the under 30 crowd was biting at the bit for and that never happened, the ME412 was a car that everybody was excited for but that didn't happen, the original specs for the SRT-4 Caliber had the under 30 crowd biting at the bit to replace their SRT-4 Neon's but once the Caliber actually hit and was an underperforming beast they mostly decided to keep their SRT-4 Neon's instead. The one brand that everybody seems to love in the Viper is the one brand Chrysler is trying to get rid of so that's not putting a good taste in the mouth's of people everywhere.

Blackout
10-18-08, 09:56 AM
Ford continues to underwhelm fans too, especially when you see what they're making for the Europeans.That's going to change for the 2010 model year for Ford. The euro spec Focus will be hitting the streets, the euro spec Fiesta, Mercury is getting a all new car that will be designed from Ford Europe, the drive trains in the US will be getting a complete overhaul, Ford's hybrids will double, and the Ford Fusion and the Ford Mondeo will merge in size to become one car. The current U.S. lineup has nothing in common with Ford of Europe products, but by 2010, 40 percent of the vehicles will be shared, and that number hits 100 percent by 2013. On top of which it will be just in time for Ford's new Ecoboost engines so if anything the future is looking pretty good for Ford

HotRodSaint
10-18-08, 01:51 PM
I'd think they'd hate the Japanese cars for killing the USA car manufacturers markets, and sending the $$$ overseas.

The Japanese didn't kill the USA car manufacturers. The Big 3 committed suicide.

Blaming the Japanese for killing the big 3, is like blaming your wife for you having an affair. Nobody forced the big 3 to make substandard products, they chose to do that all on their own.

Starting when VW came to the US in the 1950's, how many attempts has the Big 3 made to compete with imports? And how many of those attempts were succesful and long lasting?

Where's the Falcon? The Chevy II? The Corvair? The Vega? Pinto? Monza? Fairmont? Fiero? Cavalier? Escort? (Mecury) Capri? Fiesta? Merkur? Colt? This list is countless.

Let's look at todays cars.

With the new Malibu, Chevy has finally made a real Camry/Accord fighter. And how long has that taken them? And how much time will need to pass before people realize that Chevy is making a competitive car again?

Ford did have a bonafide Civic/Corolla fighter (although the sedan design was pretty weak). But they decided that the newly designed European Focus shouldn't replace the US Focus. Instead, the US got some redesign that looks like it came from 1970's Ford of Argentina. Whomever made that decision should be fired. But in classic Big 3 thinking, he was probably promoted for saving them money.

And what does Dodge/Chrysler have to compete with the Japanese? Rather than evolve and improve the Neon, they decided to repeat the same mistake that each of them have been making since the '60's. They dropped the car, dropped the name and replaced it with the all new Dodge Caliber! Which should have been the crossover that was introduced (after more thought and a much better design) to replace the PT Cruiser AFTER the Neon sedan was replaced.

I could go on and on with how many times GM, Ford and Chrysler blew huge opportunities to make good cars in the past. But what is done is done. And what is needed now, is smart people who understand cars and marketing.

Because people under 30's are not unlike people over 30. Safety, Style, quality, fuel economy and performance sells cars. It always has and it always will.

HotRodSaint
10-18-08, 01:56 PM
That's going to change for the 2010 model year for Ford. The euro spec Focus will be hitting the streets, the euro spec Fiesta, Mercury is getting a all new car that will be designed from Ford Europe...

We've seen this movie before, several times. And Ford never sticks to the plot. I hope this time they stick to it for more than one model cycle.

Blackout
10-18-08, 02:10 PM
We've seen this movie before, several times. And Ford never sticks to the plot. I hope this time they stick to it for more than one model cycle.

It should be interesting to say the least. It seems as if Ford has made this their long term plan because the way the company is doing financially they have to start cutting costs here and there so it's finally time for them to start cross platforming and cutting down the amount of products they have. The two things I am most interested in with Ford is their new upcoming RWD platform which I hear Ford Australia has won that project and if with the new Ecoboost engine's if we will be seeing a possible turbo charged V8 Mustang. BTW it's good to see you're still around here

MauiV
10-18-08, 05:07 PM
The Focus RS, Mondeo and the Falcon should have been on US shores years ago.

They are the only decent looking things coming out of Ford Motor Company right now. The Edge should come in a hybrid like the ugly Escape and everyone that is on an exterior design team at Lincoln should be collecting unemployment. HIDEOUS vehicles.

I get Fords on Z-plan pricing and wont touch one after they replaced the LS with a God awful FWD car.

hueterm
10-18-08, 10:18 PM
While there may be some obsure business/financial reason to do this (i.e. get Chrysler's cash so GM can finish the Volt technology, sell off Jeep to someone else, work some GMAC deal w/Cerberus...), from an automotive standpoint this would be the STUPIDEST idea EVER.

GMs minivan's always sucked, and Chrysler's are among the best -- but that's a dying market.

GM trucks are already better than Dodge (although the new Ram IS nice...).

GM is already too heavy in SUVs to need Jeep (just expand Hummer...).

Other than the LX models, Chrysler's cars are fail.

And there would just be something wrong from a branding perspective for one of the "Big 3" to buy another of the "Big 3" -- as they have been such close competitors for so long.

That Indian company should buy them so they can sell that crapo Nano and rename it the Neon for the US market -- then sell it next to a Jag. They could also then have as many brands cobbled together as you could fit in one dealer megaplex.

gothicaleigh
10-20-08, 03:13 PM
GM/Chrylser merger to happen before Halloween?

Appropriately scary.
<ghostie noises>

CIWS
10-20-08, 03:25 PM
This doesn't really sound like a merger to me. Cerberus gets GM's 49% stake in GMAC and they get Chrysler. That's a trade, not two different companies merging. Which sounds like Chrysler would then probably fade away.

firstimecaddi
10-20-08, 03:57 PM
the question here is: is this merger really a merger or an acquistion. I think it is an acquistion, that they are calling a merger. Imagine the chaos if it were to be announced that GM has gone belly up.

Playdrv4me
10-20-08, 06:05 PM
This doesn't really sound like a merger to me. Cerberus gets GM's 49% stake in GMAC and they get Chrysler. That's a trade, not two different companies merging. Which sounds like Chrysler would then probably fade away.

This is basically correct. If you are at the helm of GM you're probably seeing this as a way to exit the stagnant credit market altogether *AND* reduce or eliminate the position of one of your biggest competitors.

GM may be stupid... but they ain't stupid.

The Tony Show
10-20-08, 06:12 PM
-Get rid of stagnant credit and bad loans, plus exit the financial market during a crisis
-Pick up 11 billion in cash + good minivans, Hemi engine and Jeep
-Eliminate a competitor to Chevy, Pontiac and Saturn

How this can be seen as anything other than a brilliant move by GM is baffling to me.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
10-20-08, 11:26 PM
I can only hope they completely eliminate all of Chrysler's brands and trademarks, aside from Jeep and possibly Hemi, otherwise it'll be like the elimination of Oldsmobile never happened, plus like three more brands. GM will have more brands to confuse and stave off buyers than ever! Badge engineering FTL!

Playdrv4me
10-21-08, 12:11 AM
Yea but they can't close dealerships. That costs too much money as evidenced by the Oldsmobile situation you just referenced. I don't know how they are going to handle that. The Dodge, Chrysler and Jeep brands are here to stay for a while like it or not. They could possibly just turn them into GM branded dealerships to keep the dealers happy, but then there would be a glut of those. That will be interesting.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
10-21-08, 12:23 AM
Unless they absorbed the useful models into the GM range and got rid of the brands.

hueterm
10-21-08, 12:34 AM
I just don't see a "Chevrolet 300".....or a "Pontiac Challenger"....

Now, if they took the LX platform and made a new Riviera out of it...........................hmmmm.............

dkozloski
10-21-08, 06:57 PM
Yea but they can't close dealerships. That costs too much money as evidenced by the Oldsmobile situation you just referenced. I don't know how they are going to handle that. The Dodge, Chrysler and Jeep brands are here to stay for a while like it or not. They could possibly just turn them into GM branded dealerships to keep the dealers happy, but then there would be a glut of those. That will be interesting.
The hell they can't close dealerships. I've seen any number of dealerships over the years that were there one day and a furniture warehouse the next.

Playdrv4me
10-21-08, 07:13 PM
The hell they can't close dealerships. I've seen any number of dealerships over the years that were there one day and a furniture warehouse the next.

That's different. You can't FORCE the dealerships to close by eliminating a brand is my point. That's how the barage of lawsuits was brought in when Olds was dissolved. Sure the company can DO whatever it wants, but killing a brand results in serious legal ramifications I am sure they don't want to deal with right now.

AMGoff
10-21-08, 11:54 PM
...but so much stuff that Chrysler made during the '80s, '90s and today is...so bland and undesirable

That's not a fair assessment at all... especially with regard to the 90s. The 80s were a low point for the entire domestic auto industry, but regardless of quality Chrysler was extremely profitable with their K-Cars and their minivans. It was those profits that helped Chrysler make some big steps in the 90s.

Out of the Big Three at least, Chrysler was leading both GM and Ford in terms of style and manufacturing... and they had the most advanced design studio on the planet. The "cab-forward" LH cars, ie - New Yorker, LHS, Vision, Concord, Intrepid, and 300M were decent cars. They were stylish, fairly reliable, and cheap to work on. The "Cloud" cars - Cirrus, Stratus, Breeze were also stylish, dependable, and good sellers. When introduced and throughout its first generation notably, the Sebring took the market by storm and was absolutely gorgeous... especially when compared to the old LeBaron convertible - it was arguably the best 4-5 seater "family" convertible on the market. And then we have the lowly Neon.. knock it as you might, but it sold like hotcakes and by its second generation it was a pretty damn good little car. Aside from those... the 90s also brought us the modern "in your face" Ram, Dakota, and Durango, the Grand Cherokee, the improved Wrangler.. not to mention the engineering and styling exercises of the Viper and Prowler.

In the 90s we saw a Chrysler that was not only innovating, but was most importantly profitable - without relying heavily on trucks and SUVs... Over the course of a mere decade, they had managed put billions into the bank.

As I've always said... there were real, tangible reasons why Diamler wanted Chrysler. Between the profitability (and loads of money), the design studios, the current products, and the work on the future products (such as the LX cars which had already begun development before the merger)... it all added up to an attractive proposition.

Then the Germans 'effed everything up... I'm constantly depressed by the thought of where Chrysler would be today had they remained independent.

It would have been an entirely different story.

hueterm
10-22-08, 12:01 AM
The original 300 (and the other LH too, but the 300 especially) was a GREAT car and groundbreaking for the time and the price.

AMGoff
10-22-08, 12:19 AM
The original 300 (and the other LH too, but the 300 especially) was a GREAT car and groundbreaking for the time and the price.

Indeed...

Either way though... Cerberus is royally screwing GM with all of this.

I'm afraid the best case scenario involves the loss of several American nameplate. If the three headed dog from hell gets its way, they'll come out relatively unscathed... but at what cost?

hueterm
10-22-08, 12:32 AM
GM has arguably too many brands now...so which stays: Chevrolet? Pontiac? Dodge?...Chrysler? Buick?...Jeep? Hummer? GMC? (well...this one is already moving along...)

GM does need Chrysler's $11B so it can stay in business long enough for the Volt to come online (as gas is now dropping in price...).

I~LUV~Caddys8792
10-22-08, 01:19 AM
I forgot how much enthusiasm and profitiabilty was in Chrysler in the mid '90s....all that cab forward stuff, the big manly trucks, the little cute Neon, the Viper & Prowler, the newly renewed Jeep line, etc etc. Hell, they even had a whole two stores in the Mall Of America devoted to Chrysler Corporation and all their products...It was an amazing place...they had all sorts of Chrysler products in there....Dodge trucks, Plymouth cars, Chrysler cars...I can even remember a Viper and a Prowler...all on display for everyone to see and sit in, and they used to have all sorts of Chrysler memorabilia and gifts for sale too....! Man that was cool!!

AMGoff
10-22-08, 01:25 AM
GM has arguably too many brands now...so which stays: Chevrolet? Pontiac? Dodge?...Chrysler? Buick?...Jeep? Hummer? GMC? (well...this one is already moving along...)

GM does need Chrysler's $11B so it can stay in business long enough for the Volt to come online (as gas is now dropping in price...).

I had sort of touched on this in the other thread...

The most obvious brand to go would have to be Hummer, hands down... The biggest bright spot out of all this mess would be Jeep - GM would be foolish to sell Jeep off to another company. They would finally have a prime reason to dump the miserable failure that is Hummer, while maintaining dominance in the segment with a segment leader like Jeep.

After that, things start to get tricky...

First off, I've said for eons that they need to either sh!t or get off the pot with regard to Chevy and GMC, in that they need to either nix GMC and let Chevy make all their trucks... or quit making Chevy trucks and truck-based SUVs and let GMC be their premier truck division. If Dodge trucks were to be thrown into the mix, it would complicate things further... especially since the Ram does have good market value. If it were to happen, it would mean having to finally kill GMC or it would mean finally differentiating the lineups. GM could sell GM trucks solely through Chevy while killing GMC and turning the Ram into an actual brand - a la the Ram 1500, the Ram Dakota, etc.... or GMC would remain with Dodge trucks becoming "GMC" trucks - a la the GMC Ram. It would be weird to say the least.


The other GM brand I've often argued that needs to possibly go is Pontiac. As it stands now... between Chevy and Saturn, Pontiacs market presence could easily be absorbed. If Dodge were thrown into the mix... it would make such a move all the more necessary. Dodge and Pontiac could not exist under the same corporate umbrella and frankly, I'd argue in favor of retaining Dodge over Pontiac. It could easily fill Pontiac's shoes as GM's performance/"excitement" division.

But when all is said and done... I think the necessity of the situation would dictate the ultimate demise of the Chrysler brand. Just as with Pontiac and Dodge, Buick and Chrysler cannot exist together... and the Chrysler brand name/image has been so watered down over recent years, it would be very hard to justify keeping it at the expense of Buick. With that said though... the bulk of Chrysler's lineup, at least its platforms could easily be utilized to underpin and even expand Buick's lineup.

While it would mean losing several American nameplates... I think there could be one big, positive outcome for GM - to inexpensively (relatively speaking) differentiate their lineup in a meaningful way. We all blast GM (and Chrysler... and Ford) for their blatant badge-jobs.

The facilities are already there... there would be no retooling necessary. A GM Dodge would be actually different than Chevy and Saturn in a way Pontiac would never be. Buick would finally be distinct from Cadillac and Chevy... it would make them more attractive and competitive.

Just imagine a new Lucerne... or dare I say it - a new Park Avenue or even Roadmaster based on a RWD LX platform with Buick sheetmetal and a real, decent interior. With Chrysler out of the market, it would even give Buick a chance to expand its lineup with a new coupe/convertible - as unappealing as it may be to some, the Sebring 'vert is still a good seller. Just think.. a new, premium, mid/full-size Buick convertible... a new Riviera perhaps based on the "global" GS/JS platform (albeit with some proper modifications/engine options). And even though its an architecture comprised of some ancient MB components... the Crossfire platform is still there - Buick could have a sporty little coupe/roadster, maybe Reatta reincarnate?

Unfortunately, all of this would hinge on dynamic foresight on GM's part and a true desire to create the best company possible from the bits and pieces of both... but that would require an ego-check of massive proportions the likes of which has never been seen in Detroit.

A world-class company could emerge from all of this... leaving Ford in the dust while putting great pressure on the foreign competition.

Do I think it will happen?

Well, let's put it this way... I think I have better chance of winning the election in a few weeks.

AlBundy
10-22-08, 02:19 AM
Why should Ford be left in the dust. All of the big three should try someway to merge together to give America an American base to deal with the world auto market. They/foreigners will lose many $$$ trying to compete with the big three in America if all of them put their technology together.

hueterm
10-22-08, 02:32 AM
The more I think about this -- trying to integrate GM and Chrysler would just be FAIL -- at least from the consumer's perspective. They could consolidate a lot of the support functions behind the scenes, but jumbling the combined company up would just be a disaster. They could be run independently, but it would mean getting tougher w/dealers and cutting models:

1.) All Chrysler dealers would have to sell all three brands, and some would have to be cut. They would need to eliminate duplicate models:

> Whittle Dodge down to Calibre, Journey, Challenger, Charger, Durango (maybe) and Ram. Drop Avenger and Caravan.
> Reduce Jeep to Patriot (maybe), Liberty, Grand Cherokee. Drop Compass and Commander.
> Keep Chrysler Sebrings, 300, and Town and Country. Drop Aspen and let PT Cruiser live out its life and die when it would have anyway.

That way their only overlap is w/LX which are their best models and the most distinct from each other. If SUV market ever recovers, then make a RAM based Grand Wagoneer.


2.) If GM could ever figure out truck/SUV branding -- the rest could be fixed in a similar way.

> Only 1 "standard" truck/SUV line -- Chevrolet or GMC -- PICK (but Chevy probably wins here...)

> Only 1 "luxury" truck line -- Denali or Escalade -- Escalade probably wins here...they could make a luxury Silverado edition similar to Sierra Denali...and would let them get rid of GMC.

> Scrap this whole independent Saturn thing (as they're dipping into the parts bin as much as the rest now) and combine with Buick/Pontiac. Keep Astra, Vue, Aura, and Sky -- Drop Outlook. Keep Vibe, G8, and develop a "Firebird". Drop G5, G6, and Torrent. Keep Lucerne (mirror against whatever the DTS platform is) and Enclave and replace LaCrosse w/the freakin' Holden Park Avenue from China. (Maybe this eliminates need for Lucerne...?) Make a decent size Riviera coupe based on the LX and a near-luxury hardtop convertible like a bigger, better Sky. Now the only overlap is between the G8 and the LaCrosse replacement -- out of all three brands -- all at one dealership.

> Keep Chevrolet as is, except for a luxury Silverado (like Denali) and replace Impala w/Holden model.

> Cadillac needs to make all of the CTS variants they're planning. Either drop the SRX or make it look less like a station wagon. AND -- as we've all been saying -- make a short and long wheelbase version of the same car for STS/DTS replacement, with a short wheelbase coupe (wish). Base DI V6, Optional SC N*. Done.

> Either sell Hummer or make some interesting vehicles and drop everything they sell now. Offer hybrid options. Make them larger to avoid cannibalization of Jeep models.

jey
10-22-08, 12:51 PM
The other GM brand I've often argued that needs to possibly go is Pontiac. As it stands now... between Chevy and Saturn, Pontiacs market presence could easily be absorbed. If Dodge were thrown into the mix... it would make such a move all the more necessary. Dodge and Pontiac could not exist under the same corporate umbrella and frankly, I'd argue in favor of retaining Dodge over Pontiac. It could easily fill Pontiac's shoes as GM's performance/"excitement" division.


I would argue for Pontiac as the better brand for performance/"excitement" - seems like it would be more successful to expand Pontiac: Pontiac Viper as a halo car. Pontiac Challenger - this would give them a RWD coupe. Maybe even change the Vibe to be a Caliber instead of a Toyota Matrix. A Vibe SRT-4 that actually has exciting amounts of power. The current Vibe GT is almost a joke.

Dodge is a huge brand, and it doesn't have as much of a performance image. They've got trucks, minivans, and even the Sprinter van in the lineup, and they don't even have a convertible (other than the uberexpensive Viper).




> Reduce Jeep to Patriot (maybe), Liberty, Grand Cherokee. Drop Compass and Commander.
> Cadillac needs to make all of the CTS variants they're planning. Either drop the SRX or make it look less like a station wagon.

Some of this is already happening regardless of GM. Rumor is that 2009 is the last year for the Commander.
2009 is definitely the last year of the current SRX. We have the CTS wagon now for those who actually want a wagon.

Lord Cadillac
10-22-08, 01:31 PM
Whatever happens, I hope the Chrysler 300 sticks around in one form or another. I bought one for my wife last year and we're both loving the car. The only thing I'm not crazy about is the hard plastic doors and door/armrests. Otherwise, it's everything we expected it to be, plus some...

http://picasaweb.google.com/claziano/2007Chrysler300C#5202915627809301506

MauiV
10-22-08, 02:38 PM
As Kat Williams says.... It looks like a Phantom. Till a Phantom pulls up. Then it looks like a Chrysler 300.

Wayyyyyyyy to ghetto fabulous for me.

I like the Charger SRT8 looks better myself but to each there own.

AlBundy
10-23-08, 12:42 AM
As Kat Williams says.... It looks like a Phantom. Till a Phantom pulls up. Then it looks like a Chrysler 300.

Wayyyyyyyy to ghetto fabulous for me.

I like the Charger SRT8 looks better myself but to each there own.

:tard::cookoo:

hueterm
10-23-08, 12:48 AM
I'm sorry...I just can't see taking models from one make and transferring them to another make -- especially if that make is from competing companies.

Pontiac could do wonders w/an LX Coupe and make it into a GRAND PRIX....(not G whatever)....but a Pontiac Challenger would just be wrong...

70eldo
10-23-08, 11:26 AM
I just don't understand the whole idea behind GM buying Chrysler. Internaly they would always have fights over what platforms and parts will be shared on what model and basically GM would have its own competitive brand and models under one roof. That's just not profitable. You will end up with a HUGE mass of platform sharing and Chrysler will lose its own image.
It could go well, like VW shares the Golf platform with Seat and Skoda with completely different skins. But still, that requires a completely different company setup.

Then, GM is financially not going well either. How can they deal with the bankrupt Chrysler? I just don't see the logic in this.

But I am not a financial expert...

AMGoff
10-23-08, 01:27 PM
I just don't understand the whole idea behind GM buying Chrysler. Internaly they would always have fights over what platforms and parts will be shared on what model and basically GM would have its own competitive brand and models under one roof. That's just not profitable. You will end up with a HUGE mass of platform sharing and Chrysler will lose its own image.
It could go well, like VW shares the Golf platform with Seat and Skoda with completely different skins. But still, that requires a completely different company setup.

Then, GM is financially not going well either. How can they deal with the bankrupt Chrysler? I just don't see the logic in this.

But I am not a financial expert...

See my post in the other thread concerning this whole subject... GM does not want this - Cerberus does, and they're taking the necessary steps to make it happen.