: Cadillac needs to step up a level on the luxury platform



N0DIH
10-13-08, 02:40 PM
I know the economy is a mess right now, but somehow companies like Lexus seem to have a perception they are so much better (at least with the customers) than Cadillac. They have smaller engines making near the power if not exceeding Cadillac's V8's. It isn't that GM CAN'T do it, they can, and should, but there is a lot up at the top that isn't allowing progression of the drivetrains to stay outpaced of the competition. Competitive ends up meaning same to the end item customer. If they see a V8 with same advertised hp as a V6, then they perceive the V6 as being technologically superior. We know it isn't the case, but it is the perception.

I would like to start seeing NorthStar V8's in the 380-400 hp range (if a "old school" Gen III/IV V8 can do 400 hp with 2 valves.....). I would also like to see a V12 NorthStar. 500-550 hp range and get competitive with Mercedes and Maybach. There is no performance V8's with the Cadillac lineup that use a premium high value 4 valve V8. Just the SC 4.4L and NA 4.6L. Lets see a 6.9L V12 (ok 6.6L if you "wanna make it smaller"), maybe a, rear wheel drive. Lets see a Cadillac that brings cutting edge drivetrain technology back to the high end customer. BMW and MBenz need to know the king of US Luxury is taking back a foothold in the high end luxury space with a modern super high reliability high tech direct injected "SuperStar" NorthStar V12 with no less than 550 hp, closer to 600 hp. Coupled with a 6 speed auto, performance gearing this would rewrite power and vehicle performance in this space.

And the V12, std in the Escalade. Make it rewrite the performance luxury SUV. With DOD/AFM, the 6 speed auto and modern aero, concentrating on lightening the weight, a low to mid 20's mpg SUV is very possible. Keeping AFM more aggressive where V12 mode isn't active as often as the V8's to keep economy up.

Southern-Hospitality
10-14-08, 12:02 AM
With cars like the Hyundai Genesis coming out I think all the luxury cars are about to change.

Lexus and Cadillac are in different leagues. Lexus makes Camrys(with an L on them), Cadillac makes Devilles and Escalades. There is no Japanese/Asian import that compares to Caddys. European luxury is a different story.

But back to the Hyundai, it's premium package comes with a 374 horse v8!!! in a hyundai? They are $50,000 and they look like they're worth every penney.

N0DIH
10-14-08, 09:55 AM
I just picked up a 00 Park Ave Ultra, top of the line Buick, and honestly, it does NOT compare to the 94 Fleetwood Brougham it is replacing. It is NOT a Cadillac.

I personally feel Cadillac is lacking drivetrain value for the customers, they just need to outpace the comp, not just stay status quo. When was the last time a NorthStar set the world afire? Imagine a 375-400 hp NorthStar with a 6 speed with AFM? As you can see, Hyundai is figuring out the luxury market. Although a Lexus and Hyundai and Cadillac do not compare, for every Genesis or LS Lexus sold, is one less Cadillac sold. They aren't attracting that customer very well, at least drivetrain wise. I would like see GM up the ante and show off a bit more. Get a base Cadillac power of 350 hp for all cars over the CTS. 350 hp minimum. Set the standard where the V6 "luxury" cars can't go....

billc83
11-08-08, 07:49 PM
Honestly, the perception gap between imports and domestics is horrendous. But it has been in the making for nearly thirty years, and it won't be able to be eliminated overnight.

Cadillac's prestige in the luxury game was steadily declining since the late 70s, with several critical missteps like the V8-6-4 and Oldsmobile diesel engines. The Cimarron was the biggest mistake; it proved the Cadillac name truly wasn't sacred if it could be applied to a gussied-up J-Car. Cadillac could not truly call itself "Standard of the World." I liken the Cimarron to the Packard 120 ("Junior Packards") produced during the Great Depression - before Packard stood for nothing short of luxury excellence, afterwards it could refer to a lesser car as well. The '85 model year downsizing and switch to FWD didn't help Cadillac's cause, either.

Cadillac has made some great steps to reclaiming their place at the top of the luxury heap, but even with a stellar product portfolio and no mistakes it will take some time for the mistakes of the past to fade.

Koooop
11-16-08, 10:31 AM
A V12 Northstar?

Now that would be one wide Escalade!

Cadillac Forum
11-18-08, 05:34 PM
You're ridiculous. I don't even have to argue with you about Cadillac being in the same league as Lexus - because everybody already knows how funny that is.. Same goes for the asinine comment about Lexus vehicles being Camrys with L's on them.. And last but not least, the Hyundai Genesis has 375 horsepower and maxes out a $42,000.00 fully loaded. If you're paying anything more than that, you're getting rear-ended by a greedy dealership.


With cars like the Hyundai Genesis coming out I think all the luxury cars are about to change.

Lexus and Cadillac are in different leagues. Lexus makes Camrys(with an L on them), Cadillac makes Devilles and Escalades. There is no Japanese/Asian import that compares to Caddys. European luxury is a different story.

But back to the Hyundai, it's premium package comes with a 374 horse v8!!! in a hyundai? They are $50,000 and they look like they're worth every penney.

Cadillac Forum
11-18-08, 05:39 PM
Unfortunately, Cadillac is broke. GM has no money to fund Cadillac and their ideas/innovations. Cadillac hasn't made a full-size luxury sedan that could compete with the Japanese since Lexus, Acura and Infiniti came into the game. You cannot be the standard of the world and be dead broke at the same time. Without money, there is no innovation. Cadillac is what it is (now) and that's all it's going to be for a long time. GM is slowly but surely turning things around - but it may be too little, too late.

70eldo
11-20-08, 07:01 AM
The 3.6 DI V6 performancewise is on par with the current engine technology. Compared to Fords V8 you see same hp numbers, so I see no shame in there for Cadillac. V8 improvements were also in progress (even Turbo-Diesel V8) but currently put on hold it seems. (there have been some media reports on that).

As far as I understood the V12 (or V10) Super Luxury project (75% Sixteen size) is put on the shelve until the time has come to release it. With the current economical situation GM might do good to wait it out a little. The technology has not been lost yet.

But I agree that GM/Cadillac CAN do it. The Sixteen was a good example of that! Let's just hope GM will overcome.

Koooop
11-20-08, 02:49 PM
As long as the UAW runs the big three, they will not be able to compete in most segments.

Sandy
11-23-08, 09:02 PM
IMHO, the only popular foreign cars that upstage a DTS / STS are the tip top models, such as the Lexus LS, the Audi A8, the E & S Class Mercedes Sedans, and the BMW 5 6 & 7 Series, the Volvo S80 Premier Elite and the Jaguar XJ Sedans.

The smaller (cheaper) "brothers" are no better (and alot smaller with smaller engines than a DTS / STS.
A4? 3-Series? C-Class? S-Type? A4? S Type? No, I don't think so.

It's usually the slowest selling, most expensive model. Ever have the misfortune to sit in the back seat of an Audi A4 or a Infiniti G ? It's akin to the back seat of a 4-door Ford Focus, room-wise.

N0DIH
11-24-08, 09:27 AM
Speaking of the 3.6 DI V6, where is the 4.6L or 4.8L DI NorthStar V8? Should be a near bolt on. The 400 hp NorthStar V8 should be EASY with DI. From what people tell me the 4T80E should be able to handle it fairly easily.


The 3.6 DI V6 performancewise is on par with the current engine technology. Compared to Fords V8 you see same hp numbers, so I see no shame in there for Cadillac. V8 improvements were also in progress (even Turbo-Diesel V8) but currently put on hold it seems. (there have been some media reports on that).

As far as I understood the V12 (or V10) Super Luxury project (75% Sixteen size) is put on the shelve until the time has come to release it. With the current economical situation GM might do good to wait it out a little. The technology has not been lost yet.

But I agree that GM/Cadillac CAN do it. The Sixteen was a good example of that! Let's just hope GM will overcome.

Rodya234
11-28-08, 05:15 AM
Let us not forget that James Watt came up with the unit we know as horsepower in order to give people something to relate to when they were looking at buying his steam engine. I see horsepower as simply a unit intended to sell cars. Despite the fact that a Genesis produces 375hp, my modded 4.9L Deville would run neck and neck if not beat one in 0-60 times and in the 60-90mph highway acceleration...with only 285hp. (For reference, my average 0-60 time is 5.6 seconds.)

I do acknowledge that the Genesis has a higher top speed, but where in the United States outside of a race environment can you legally drive at 160-170mph?

Everyone has been tripping over the Genesis lately, but the only points that sound impressive are the price and the horsepower rating. The DTS meets or exceeds in a lot of other major selling points. Considering that the resale value of a 2007 DTS would only be about 20-23,000 dollars now, you can bet which one I would buy.

N0DIH
11-28-08, 01:17 PM
Yup, there is a LOT more to power than a pretty hp number. But what sells cars? What does GM need to give to the customer to choose from?

Case in point, my Cadillac Fleetwood LT1 with 3.42 (factory installed) gears. Dodge Ram Hemi, short box, short cab, 3.91 gears, similar wieghts, taller tires, overall, a similar combo short of aero. 20-100, Cadillac win. 345hp vs 260hp. Sorry, I got more of a run from a LQ9 powered SS Silverado. Again, still the old Cadillac was on top from 70 mph up. And a match 10-70. The SS was nearly a dead match. Lots more hp, but torque and hp peaks are 1000-1500 rpm higher. Even Toyota's vaunted 5.7L in the truck, my aging 290 hp 454 in a 4x4 Suburban with 3.73's is a close match to it 50-80 mph. I wouldn't be bragging if I was Toyota.... And I can strap on 10000 #'s and enjoy the ride still.... I don't need a Mt Everest torque peak, Mine's as wide as the Atlantic.... Forget the peaks....

People buy hp numbers. Remember when GM took the execs out and had them drive the LT4 powered Corvette and a LT5 Corvette, automatics, cars with identical hp numbers. 100% of the execs chose the LT4 over the LT5. The LT5 made great power, but at 7000 rpm, the LT4 made same power at 5000 rpm. So the overal hp AND torque curves are fatter. We don't race redlines. (and please don't correct me about the PRODUCTION LT4, this was an internal test not a car that was sold to the public, this was an Engineering test mule)

But alas, most customers don't know, most are very uneducated when it comes to power. HP sells cars, Torque wins races.... I have a 3500 powered Impala rental right now, I would GLADLY take my 1991 Bonneville 3800 for power any day of the week. The 3800 powerband is much fatter.... Not as peaky. So to make up for it we add more and more trans gears.... Then we can get away with 4.10, 4.56's, etc and still have 2.14-2.41 final drives or less.

Rodya234
11-29-08, 06:57 AM
What I think Cadillac needs to start with is to advertise more models. They've been pushing the CTS, and despite the fact that it is working, most people now see the flagship of Cadillac as a mid-sized car instead of the large machines they used to produce. Though the CTS is a very nice car, feature-wise it blends in with the foreign competition. And even though most people know about the CTS, few people that I've talked to know about the CTS-V, which means that those looking for a sporty car aren't going to be looking at Cadillac.

I'd like to see more advertising of the DTS, STS and the XLR, which in the case of the DTS, would bring back the once well known fact that the word Cadillac means a large, and comfortable but still sleek powerful, uniquely American car. I'd actually like to see the DeVille name back, but I won't dwell on that.

With the XLR, they could show that you can still find a high-performance luxury vehicle that offers clean styling and ingenuity, rivaling even the best European coupes.

What I'm saying is that the only Cadillac models the public really sees are the CTS and the Escalade. Cadillac needs to show off everything they have to offer, or else there's no point in even selling those models. GM has been hiding things from their customers for years, and unfortunately, what they hide tends to be their best offerings. In 1968 when my dad went to a Chevy dealer to order a Camaro Z/28, the sales rep didn't even know that RPO-Z28 even existed. Once the Z28 started being talked about, it was one of the hottest cars on the street.

I don't believe Cadillac has to change their lineup at all. I think if they work with what they have it won't be long before they find themselves back on top of the luxury game.

pompste
11-29-08, 10:02 PM
What I think Cadillac needs to start with is to advertise more models. They've been pushing the CTS, and despite the fact that it is working, most people now see the flagship of Cadillac as a mid-sized car instead of the large machines they used to produce. Though the CTS is a very nice car, feature-wise it blends in with the foreign competition. And even though most people know about the CTS, few people that I've talked to know about the CTS-V, which means that those looking for a sporty car aren't going to be looking at Cadillac.

I'd like to see more advertising of the DTS, STS and the XLR, which in the case of the DTS, would bring back the once well known fact that the word Cadillac means a large, and comfortable but still sleek powerful, uniquely American car. I'd actually like to see the DeVille name back, but I won't dwell on that.

With the XLR, they could show that you can still find a high-performance luxury vehicle that offers clean styling and ingenuity, rivaling even the best European coupes.

What I'm saying is that the only Cadillac models the public really sees are the CTS and the Escalade. Cadillac needs to show off everything they have to offer, or else there's no point in even selling those models. GM has been hiding things from their customers for years, and unfortunately, what they hide tends to be their best offerings. In 1968 when my dad went to a Chevy dealer to order a Camaro Z/28, the sales rep didn't even know that RPO-Z28 even existed. Once the Z28 started being talked about, it was one of the hottest cars on the street.

I don't believe Cadillac has to change their lineup at all. I think if they work with what they have it won't be long before they find themselves back on top of the luxury game.

Wow! Very well stated! If your age of 16 is correct in your profile,you`re quite wise in your analysis for your age!
I agree that Cadllac is focusing their advertising on the CTS and Escalade and not enough advertising of the DTS,STS and XLR.It seems they are adapting to a changing sales environment.In the past Cadillac traditionally focused most of their ads on their big luxury rides.For proof simply go to youtube.com and checkout the tv commercials for "Cadillac" from the 1960`s/70`s/80`s and 90`s----overwhelmingly they were the big luxury rides with elegant music in the background and the scenes flowed smoothly---obviously geared for mature buyers.
Fast forward to today and any Cadillac tv commercial you see today is really upbeat with quick,jerky scenes and fast paced tunes all geared to a younger buyer.Times have no doubt changed and Cadillac is adapting.
There are many of us that would like to see the Deville and Fleetwood names back--both names have always represented "luxury".

inurok
06-20-09, 12:32 PM
Let us not forget that James Watt came up with the unit we know as horsepower in order to give people something to relate to when they were looking at buying his steam engine. I see horsepower as simply a unit intended to sell cars. Despite the fact that a Genesis produces 375hp, my modded 4.9L Deville would run neck and neck if not beat one in 0-60 times and in the 60-90mph highway acceleration...with only 285hp. (For reference, my average 0-60 time is 5.6 seconds.)

I do acknowledge that the Genesis has a higher top speed, but where in the United States outside of a race environment can you legally drive at 160-170mph?

Everyone has been tripping over the Genesis lately, but the only points that sound impressive are the price and the horsepower rating. The DTS meets or exceeds in a lot of other major selling points. Considering that the resale value of a 2007 DTS would only be about 20-23,000 dollars now, you can bet which one I would buy.

Your Fleetwood gets 0-60 in 5.6 with only 285 hp :histeric:. WOW..My STS-V barely reaches that number with 469 hp. I think you might have to have your speedometer calibrated.

Rodya234
06-20-09, 01:29 PM
^A C-body like mine is about 1000lbs lighter then your STS. It's actually lighter then a new Corvette ZR1.

hhkov8
06-30-09, 12:46 PM
In Germany we have trouble with Cadillac warranty. The mean dealer for Europe went in bankrupty, no one knows if and when full warranty will be given for new Cadillac cars again. Now you have to pay first even for warranty works and then may hope to get your money back somewhere in future.

In Germany Cadillac cars are known as luxury cars. But most of the people here will not know the actual Cadillacs.

The XLR is as good as unknown here and there is no PR at all for it. The Escalade is rarely known, it is the same with the new STS. Sometimes you can find PR for BLS but you dont find them on our streets. CTS you can find very few cars here.

PR for Cadillac in Germany was and is more than bad. And in german newspapers american cars nearly always are tested worse than comparable cars - except C6 Corvette.

I am sure if there would be good PR for STS, CTS and XLR here (and if good and safe warranty would be offered...) a lot more people here would buy Cadillac. Because Cadillac builds good cars that are equal to Mercedes E and S, BMW 5 and 7, Audi A 6 and A 8 and so on. And Cadillacs are a lot cheaper than these cars.

Koooop
06-30-09, 05:40 PM
^A C-body like mine is about 1000lbs lighter then your STS. It's actually lighter then a new Corvette ZR1.

Now that is just ridiculous. :thepan:

Rodya234
06-30-09, 07:02 PM
From Corvette ZR1 spec sheet: 3520lbs
From '91 Deville owners Manual: 3459lbs

And I just thought about that.....if you're struggling to get 5.6 seconds 0-60 with a STS-V(!) then I'd go back to whoever I got it from and make sure I got a real V, not just an STS with the V8 option. An STS-V should be able to 0-60 in around 4.8.

N0DIH
06-30-09, 08:37 PM
I have heard the CTS-V is lighter than the ZR1 too.

Probably why the CTS-V has less hp, can't risk the V beating the "flagship" of GM now can we? Every car that has EVER done that in GM history has been canned... 73-74 SD455 T/A, 80-81 Turbo T/A, 86-87 GNX, 89 Turbo T/A.... Well, they all were doomed within a model year....

Now we just do a software flash to slow them down.


Now that is just ridiculous. :thepan:

Koooop
07-03-09, 03:20 AM
Whell that sertanly splains why the ZR1 is such a pig at the ring.

Koooop
07-03-09, 03:22 AM
From Corvette ZR1 spec sheet: 3520lbs
From '91 Deville owners Manual: 3459lbs

And I just thought about that.....if you're struggling to get 5.6 seconds 0-60 with a STS-V(!) then I'd go back to whoever I got it from and make sure I got a real V, not just an STS with the V8 option. An STS-V should be able to 0-60 in around 4.8.

Someone's been using Wikipedia.

And my CTS-V should put that away in 4.6.

LOL

70eldo
07-03-09, 09:05 AM
In Germany we have trouble with Cadillac warranty. The mean dealer for Europe went in bankrupty, no one knows if and when full warranty will be given for new Cadillac cars again. Now you have to pay first even for warranty works and then may hope to get your money back somewhere in future.

In Germany Cadillac cars are known as luxury cars. But most of the people here will not know the actual Cadillacs.

The XLR is as good as unknown here and there is no PR at all for it. The Escalade is rarely known, it is the same with the new STS. Sometimes you can find PR for BLS but you dont find them on our streets. CTS you can find very few cars here.

PR for Cadillac in Germany was and is more than bad. And in german newspapers american cars nearly always are tested worse than comparable cars - except C6 Corvette.

I am sure if there would be good PR for STS, CTS and XLR here (and if good and safe warranty would be offered...) a lot more people here would buy Cadillac. Because Cadillac builds good cars that are equal to Mercedes E and S, BMW 5 and 7, Audi A 6 and A 8 and so on. And Cadillacs are a lot cheaper than these cars.

Warrantees have been secured by letter now. That has never been the problem though.
You are right about the PR. I have been preaching that for the last 2 years here.

LashCTS
07-05-09, 02:36 PM
Cadillac is already on the Luxury Platform-"something that is an indulgence rather than a necessity;lavishness: the quality possessed by something that is excessively expensive; wealth as evidenced by sumptuous living (DTS, STS, ESV)

Now Cadillac is offering performance "the act of performing; execution, accomplishment, fulfillment, etc; operation or functioning, usually with regard to effectiveness; as of a machine; something done or performed; deed or feat. (CTS-V and STS-V)"

Cadillac does both well. The problem is value (cost of ownership over a period of time, including operating, maintenance, depreciation and trade value).

Cars.com rates the DTS #1 cost to own-

"The DTS isn't just comfortable it's smart, too. Cadillac's largest car leads the Cost of Ownership index thanks to seriously low insurance, maintenance and repair costs. The current generation may be headed for the exit, but it's still a smart choice overall."

Just wish I could say the same about my CTS value.