: "Tuning" the LSA?



HPCC
09-26-08, 03:08 AM
Hendricks Motorsports dynoed a couple of ZR1's (http://www.corvetteblogger.com/index.cfm/2008/9/24/2009-Corvette-ZR1-Hits-the-Dyno); with one of them, they were able to boost HP output by around 7% through "tuning" (stock tune was pretty rich). Nowadays, is such fuel remapping still pretty much a serious hack or would it be routine for a competent tuner?

If the LSA has similar "low hanging fruit," we're talking in the neighborhood of 590 HP at the crank without swapping a single part...

Jpjr
09-26-08, 10:49 AM
Hendricks Motorsports dynoed a couple of ZR1's (http://www.corvetteblogger.com/index.cfm/2008/9/24/2009-Corvette-ZR1-Hits-the-Dyno); with one of them, they were able to boost HP output by around 7% through "tuning" (stock tune was pretty rich). Nowadays, is such fuel remapping still pretty much a serious hack or would it be routine for a competent tuner?

If the LSA has similar "low hanging fruit," we're talking in the neighborhood of 590 HP at the crank without swapping a single part...

Although to each thier own, where is the upside of blowing your warranty for a barely noticeable 7% horsepower gain? Personally, I want my LSA pig rich. Forced induction means lots of air and the potential of running lean fast. Just my opinion.

Florian
09-26-08, 11:14 AM
theres plenty left in the LSA....DAMHIK


F

atdeneve
09-26-08, 12:52 PM
Although to each thier own, where is the upside of blowing your warranty for a barely noticeable 7% horsepower gain? Personally, I want my LSA pig rich. Forced induction means lots of air and the potential of running lean fast. Just my opinion.

At those levels of horsepower, an increase by 7% yields pretty healthy gains - from 556 hp to 595 hp for the LSA and from 638 hp to 683 hp for the LS9 (an increase of 39 hp and 45 hp, respectively). Not too shabby. I think I'd notice.

HPCC
09-27-08, 05:42 AM
Yes, to each their own; all I want is a map as close to the ideal stoichiometric ratio of 14.7:1 as practical and of course within the tolerances of the engine management system's capabilities over the range of conditions I'm likely to encounter over the life of the car. I'm not looking for blowtorch lean, but too rich fouls plugs and leaches oil from the cylinder walls, not to mention how it affects mileage too. The way I see it, it's like calibrating my HDTV--I like knowing it's performing optimally and what I'm seeing is exactly what the cinematographer intended...

Jayrcr3
09-27-08, 10:06 AM
Didn't one of the engineers state in an article that they left 10% for the tuners? Then he said we know its there because we have done it.

330toSRT8
09-27-08, 10:08 AM
It'll take a while for me get bored with the stock HP. The SRT-8 I've been driving for the last three years feels pretty healthy still so the 2009 CTS-V must be pretty crazy with so much more HP and similar weight.

Jpjr
09-27-08, 12:02 PM
Yes, to each their own; all I want is a map as close to the ideal stoichiometric ratio of 14.7:1 as practical and of course within the tolerances of the engine management system's capabilities over the range of conditions I'm likely to encounter over the life of the car. I'm not looking for blowtorch lean, but too rich fouls plugs and leaches oil from the cylinder walls, not to mention how it affects mileage too. The way I see it, it's like calibrating my HDTV--I like knowing it's performing optimally and what I'm seeing is exactly what the cinematographer intended...

I don't think you are weighting these correctly.

$20 a year for a set up plugs, plus a few extra gallons of gas, vs. detonation and blowing a forced induction motor that would probably cost $20k right now to replace and install aftermarket.

No one in my experience has ever had a problem running a little rich.

I'm not saying don't tune the car, just saying I would do a full blown pulley swap and tune after I had made sure any necessary supporting mods (most notably on the fuel delivery and cooling side) were in place first. This motor does have a TON of upside potential if the internals prove strong.

HPCC
09-27-08, 03:09 PM
Yes, I wholeheartedly agree that detonation would be bad under any circumstances.

CTSV_Rob
09-27-08, 03:27 PM
Reading this makes me wonder who will be the first to break the 600 HP mark. I was pretty happy with my current mods for about 1 month and now I am in the process of putting a super charger on. I for one can say that I don't know what the max HP/TQ I would be content with but I haven't hit it yet. :devil:

HiTechRV
09-27-08, 06:53 PM
If you are not driving in Saudi Arabia or Death Valley leaning it out a little is minimal risk, with less washing down of the cylinder walls. The engine will actually last longer with better compression if you carefully creep a little closer to stoich in many climates. I know I'd like to.

So the real question is can it be tuned, and then later returned to stock tune without any bread crumbs left behind to tell what's been done?

RacerVX
11-04-08, 04:53 AM
I hope that we are discussing cruising AFRs here? Some poeple might get the wrong impression that 14.7:1 is a performance setting. Target AFR for peak power in NA engines is 12.8:1 and 11.8:1 in FI engines. Cylinder heads can alter this with material and mixture motion but not by more than .2-.3. It's also nice to have individual cylinder control as we do but we are not going to get anywhere near stoich under WOT.

gotapex
11-04-08, 03:33 PM
Yes, to each their own; all I want is a map as close to the ideal stoichiometric ratio of 14.7:1 as practical and of course within the tolerances of the engine management system's capabilities over the range of conditions I'm likely to encounter over the life of the car. I'm not looking for blowtorch lean, but too rich fouls plugs and leaches oil from the cylinder walls, not to mention how it affects mileage too. The way I see it, it's like calibrating my HDTV--I like knowing it's performing optimally and what I'm seeing is exactly what the cinematographer intended...


Are you sure you'd want that? At 14.7:1 on a forced induction engine, you'd have to pull quite a bit of timing for survival. You'd end up losing more power than you gain at that a/f.

HPCC
11-05-08, 01:50 AM
So if 11.8 is optimal for an FI engine, that's what I'd want, plus a safety margin for hysteresis in the system.

Hogg
11-07-08, 02:27 PM
A/F rtatio is only 1 part of the tuning process. Get a decnt a/f ratio (11.8 isnt the be all end all number) then you can start making real power by adding timing while leaving the a/f ratio alone. Increase timing until you get max power without knock. Dont use the old and archaeic method of tune til it knocks then back off. Loaded chassis dynos allow for proper cell by cell tuning.
Any competent ECM tuner will be able to get 20hp frpm an LSA EASILY with 40-60 being possible. safely. Sensible tuning will not shorten the life of the engine. Engine tuning is only 1 part of ECM/TCM tuning as well.
I really dont know about tuning on a new vehicle nowadays. Gm can tell if the ECM/TCM has been flashed. I dont see a Tech looking for a reflash ALL THE TIME, but I'm sure they will be looking if there are holes in the pistons, or repeatedly fragged drivetrains.
I do know that folks are working on the new GM MDI scan/flash tool on tunes that GM wont be able to detect as non-GM. I am not into that sort of thing as it is INDEED illegal. If you tune it and it breaks, you should pay for it IMO. Which is why I question ECM/TCM tuning on fresh warrantiable vehicles.

The problem with pumping up the LSA is its small single element air/water intercooler. It can be done of course, but you have to be careful.

An expensive option would be to use the larger LS9 2.3L blower and its dual element air/water intercooler. You wouldnt have to spin the 2.3l blower as fast as you would the 1.9l blower to net the same boost level.

GM Engineers do admit that the LS9's intercoolers will need to be adressed for much beyond the stock LS9 power levels. Water/meth injection can always be used for detonation supression.


LSA 6.2
9.1L1 CR
Fuel shutoff 6200rpm
1.9l blower
single air/water intercooler
forged crank
nodular iron main bearing caps
PM forged rods
high silicon/high moly cast iron
hypereutectic cast pistons
556 hp@6100rpm
551 lb/ft torque@3800rpm

LS9 6.2
9.1:1 CR
Fuel shutoff 6600rpm
2.3l blower
dual air/water intercooler
forged crak
forged steel main bearing caps
Forged Titanium rods
forged pistons
titanium intake valve
stainless steel exhaust manifold
638hp@6500rpm
604 lb/ft torque@3800rpm

both engines feature piston spray cooling

Things are definitley heating up in the GM camp.

peace
Hog

gotapex
11-07-08, 05:09 PM
The problem with pumping up the LSA is its small single element air/water intercooler. It can be done of course, but you have to be careful.


Hog


That's what I have heard as well from auto journalists who have driven it.

http://www.nobleforums.com/showthread.php?t=4150

Dr. Design
11-07-08, 08:49 PM
D3 will eventually release new products to address some of the pitfalls for the new 09 V. We have already started development of some new items and it should be pretty interesting when the vehicle is finally released to the public.

With any blown vehicle the intercooler is always a concern. Since GM only builds these vehicle to meet their desired goals, you have to dig a little deeper to find the areas that need to be improved to increase performance and efficiency.

One of the items on our hit list is very similar to what we have been doing for the XLR-V and the STS-V application with our plug and play module. This will not give you the "MOST" power possible through ECU tuning, but it will also not void your warranty. We have determined that most people would sacrifice a little bit of HP for a little more leeway with their warranty. Of course we will address those that have little disregard for the factory warranty :lildevil:.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac

Ketzer
11-07-08, 09:34 PM
I saw your car at SEMA but didn't see you guys... :( Did you have a booth that I missed?
Look forward to the new developments!

Jeff-

Robb03
11-09-08, 09:22 AM
I am new to the forum, I had an 03 cobra. (the supercharged one) My family and I have outgrew it, so I am saving up for a new v. When my 03 was stock it was way rich, under 10:1 at redline on a dyno. It took an 9 inch CAI and full exhaust to get it close to 11.5:1. One of the big differences between the 03 and other ford FI engines was the internals were all forged. You could change pulleys, blowers ect and have no problems where the other engines would fail under the increased boost. 600 rwhp was not uncommon after a blower swap and fuel system upgrade. It was very popular to do this, while using a programer, then if issues were present, go back to stock form, and it couldn't be caught through the PCM. If you were to put a "chip" on the car, it would be obvious. I didn't do this, but I knew many who did. I am sure GM cars are drastically different, but I know you could with cobras. I just thought I would share.

Karaya Eins
11-09-08, 11:56 AM
It would seem one of the better answers here is to do the oldest hot rodding trick. The first trick, enging swap. Void the warranty and then replace the TC or the clutch.

Jpjr
11-09-08, 01:27 PM
That's what I have heard as well from auto journalists who have driven it.

http://www.nobleforums.com/showthread.php?t=4150

This is what I eluded to near the beginning of this thread.

If you are going to increase power, you have to have the supporting mods in place. To know what those are, you have to find the weak links in the system, which are almost always 1) cooling and 2) fuel delivery. My unsolicited advice with new performance cars is to let a shop like D3, Roush, etc. build a car and identify all of the weak spots for you. That is their business and it costs money.

On top of the hp boost, you have the traction issue. Mustang Cobra's already come stock with more power than the wheels can handle, so your first mods are chassis, suspension, drivetrain, etc. Everyone loves to brag about hp and dyno race, but on the street a decent driver with a $400 set of rear nitto drag radials will beat a guy with $2000 of hp mods. Something to think about.

Lastly, a tune if detected will blow your warranty if you hurt your motor. The dealer does not pay much attention unless it is a major motor issue, but that is of course the only time it matters. Simply reflashing the computer is NOT fool proof. The ECM has codes that show every time it is reset, and some other hints that field reps can identify to detect modifications prior to approving a very expensive warranty fix. So I'm not saying don't mod while under warranty, I'm just saying go big because blowing a $15k motor over a 20hp tune is a tough trade. At least trust your tuner and do not be ignorant about how the power is being made. Keep the A/F safe, and know what safe means for an LSA (back to D3, roush reference above).

rand49er
11-09-08, 07:55 PM
theres plenty left in the LSA....DAMHIK


FFlorian's source is also my source I do believe.

I was told by this source that there's a relatively easy 25% more power to be had with the LSA motor. I didn't press to get the details, but "700+" was the number mentioned to be attained on an engine dyno. I'm sure there'll be even more made by creative minds.

Jpjr
11-09-08, 11:04 PM
Florian's source is also my source I do believe.

I was told by this source that there's a relatively easy 25% more power to be had with the LSA motor. I didn't press to get the details, but "700+" was the number mentioned to be attained on an engine dyno. I'm sure there'll be even more made by creative minds.

I can almost guarantee you that 800hp could be made with this motor cheaper and safer than 600hp with the LS2. Boost is a great thing. No reason not to go big if you are going to do anything but cai/exhaust IMO.