: domestic vs import



alexinvancouver
06-14-04, 07:57 PM
i have older mercedes s-class and was considering buying cadillac seville sts, but after reading forum topics i was surprised how many problems you guys having with them!
i decided to stay away from domestics.
Its even hard to belive that top of the line american car is so unreliable, even newer models:confused:

speedyman_2
06-14-04, 09:48 PM
Umm...ok the tech forums are usually for people with problems. So all the cars with problems would be posted there. Every tech section on ever type of forum will have cars with problems. No one's going to post a thread called. "My dash lights work all the time, I never have a problem." or "My 3rd tail light has never gone out, what an amazing car!!" That's what the tech sections are for. Problem's that come up can be solved there. Am I wrong? http://cadillacforums.com/forums/images/smilies/hmmm.gif

P.S. Oh yeah, don't judge a car based on one forum.

Ralph
06-15-04, 02:31 AM
i have older mercedes s-class and was considering buying cadillac seville sts, but after reading forum topics i was surprised how many problems you guys having with them!
i decided to stay away from domestics.
Its even hard to belive that top of the line american car is so unreliable, even newer models:confused:

It's a shame you will not consider a "domestic" car after reading a few posts about problems, etc. There are many members here who go 150,000 miles with little or NO problems. Dig deeper from many early posts on this Forum and you wil see what I mean. Also, read some of my posted info on the quality of the NEWER Mercedes Benz reliability regarding the electronics nightmare they are experiencing right now and are trying to rectify. The new Cadillacs are #2 in quality only after Lexus according to JD Power. Scratch below the surface. ;)

If American cars are so "unreliable," why then do I see so many still from the 1970's?

Msilva954
06-15-04, 09:26 AM
Cadillacs are probably the most reliable domestic you can purchase......I know as a fact that newer mercedes are a lot less reliable then these.....even the parts are double.

Mitch3
06-15-04, 11:23 AM
Does Mercedes have a REPAIR MANUAL ??????? They do !! Guess Mercedes must be a bummer then.

Sandy
06-15-04, 11:29 AM
How come Mercedes dealers have service departments?

I just checked, by calling my local M-B dealer, asking for an appointment. I told him that I had a knocking sound under throttle at 60 MPH, and I wanted it looked at. He offered me an appointment on June 22nd. WHAT are they doing in there for the next 54 working hours times 8 mechanics? Ummmm.
8 X 54 = 432 man hours over the next 6 days?? FIXING Miserable Bends !!

limousine rider
06-15-04, 11:35 AM
Every Caddillac that ive owned i loved , no matter what the cost ! :2thumbs: :grouphug:

PDBDeville
06-15-04, 11:45 AM
Even though I am probably responding to what is just another troll (if not, I apologize), here's what I found when looking at the very first Mecedes Forum that I checked:

Intake Coolant Leak
Front End Noise
COMAND System Crash
Hunting Idle
Engine Crack
Seat Problem
Starting Trouble
Transmission Trouble
Stalling

This is all on page 1 of the Mercedes S Class section of mercedesforums.com

Using your flawed logic, Mercedes must be junk.

Mitch3
06-15-04, 10:33 PM
So Alex in Vancouver, aren't you glad you made that comment about Cadillacs ? Sorry we gave you such a hard time. I bought my first Cadillac about a year ago (1994 Eldorado with 107000 miles). It took me a little while to get used to because it drove differently than my other cars and it made some wierd noises. Didn't take me long to get used to it and now I hate driving other cars. The wierd noises are all the little servo motors I guess. I haven't put any money into the car other than routine service. Like you, I got a little scared when I first joined this forum because it sounded like everyone that owned a Cadillac was having big trouble. It's a forum with people helping people when they do have problems. ALL CARS HAVE PROBLEMS TO SOME EXTENT. I don't care whether it's Japanese, European, or American.

Vesicant
06-15-04, 10:43 PM
PDB your forgetting what speedyman said, and what the purpose for most of these forums are... for helping the small amount of people with problems that occur in their vehicles.


This small amount is not going to happen on every vehicle, any thing can go wrong on any car or truck... it brings back the problem of people pointing fingers again.

airbalancer
06-16-04, 09:16 AM
What do you call domestic or import
Honda's and Toyotas's are made by Toronto
How old of a STS are you looking because there is not many problem with the 98 - 03 STS
Most of the problems here are people with Caddies older then 10 years
Most of the problem are minor and could be fixed at the dealer.If you look at who is post problems for help are younger owner who do not have the cash to pay the dealers( more important to have beer money, ).

PDBDeville
06-16-04, 02:01 PM
PDB your forgetting what speedyman said, and what the purpose for most of these forums are... for helping the small amount of people with problems that occur in their vehicles.


This small amount is not going to happen on every vehicle, any thing can go wrong on any car or truck... it brings back the problem of people pointing fingers again.

No, actually not forgetting what was said, and after being on automotive forums like this for the last 5 years or so I am aware that a small % of owners visit for technical help.

I stand by my original post.....it was in response to a person that is making a judgement on a platform based on forum topics. My intention was to show that you can visit ANY forum (Mercedes in my example) and find "problem" areas. alexinvancouver had stated that he owned an older S Class Mercedes without any problems, and I have no reason to doubt him. Just wanting to illustrate that in any internet forum (even a Mercedes forum), you will often find what is "worst case scenarios".

Vesicant
06-16-04, 02:04 PM
No problem.. thats cool :)

1toycad
06-16-04, 02:41 PM
i have older mercedes s-class and was considering buying cadillac seville sts, but after reading forum topics i was surprised how many problems you guys having with them!
i decided to stay away from domestics.
Its even hard to belive that top of the line american car is so unreliable, even newer models:confused:
I currently own a 1999 Seville SLS with 22K miles. I have previously owned other Cadillac models. I also own a 1991 420SEL with 248K miles and a 1989 300TE with 180K miles. Prior to that I owned a 1984 300SD (diesel) which, last time I checked, is still running strong at 340K (I sold it to a family friend who couldn't be happier with the car).

As I stated before I LOVE my SLS. But, comparing my Benzes to the SLS, I can tell you that there is no way that the SLS will last 248K and still run as strong as the 420SEL or the 300TE. If I get 150K good miles out of the SLS I will consider myself a lucky guy.

Is this a knock on Cadillac? No it isn't.

The 420SEL's MSRP, back in 1991, was $63K. The MSRP of the SLS, in 1999, was $47K. The 420SEL is a more expensive car, built to higher tolerances, so I expect it to be a better car, and it is a better car.

Let me give you an example. Many people in this forum complain about the high oil consumption in their N* engines. Some have pointed out that some N* eninges consume up to one qt. of oil per 1K miles while other N* engines consume no oil at all. GM's explanation (and the explanation given here by GM's rep) is that tolerances change from day to day, even during a single work shift. The same is not true with Mercedes. You do not see those kinds of tolerance differentials from one engine to the next. Another thing, the paint in my 420SEL was flawless, albeit a bit faded now. The paint job in my SLS has "problem" spots, where the person in charge of painting it was a bit sloppy.

Having said all of that, would I buy another brand of American luxury car? HELL NO!

If I am going to buy American, I'll buy American-Cadillac (with any luck, my next new car will be an STS).

So,if you are considering buying an American luxury car, then buy Caddy and don't worry about the rest. Pocket the price difference and have yourself a nice vacation. :lildevil:

PDBDeville
06-16-04, 02:47 PM
Hope I didn't come off as snotty above, wasn't intended that way. It just surprises me that some people will look at an internet forum and base judgement on what is read. I've often heard that if you make a customer happy, they might tell 2 others of their good experience....if you piss off a customer, they WILL tell 10 others about their experience. Have always looked at the forums, and what I read there, in the same light. Has my Deville been perfect? No. Do I look forward to purchasing another Cad in the future? Very much so :)

alexinvancouver
06-16-04, 03:20 PM
is still running strong at 340K (I sold it to a family friend who couldn't be happier with the car).

As I stated before I LOVE my SLS. But, comparing my Benzes to the SLS, I can tell you that there is no way that the SLS will last 248K and still run as strong as the 420SEL or the 300TE.

The 420SEL's MSRP, back in 1991, was $63K. The MSRP of the SLS, in 1999, was $47K. The 420SEL is a more expensive car, built to higher tolerances, so I expect it to be a better car, and it is a better car.

:lildevil:Thats a good point.
I had a quite a few japanise cars in my life and they hardly if ever broke down. But you know - as you grow up you wanna drive something bigger ;)
So i purchased my first mercedes and then second one and now ive been driving this '86 300 SD for the last four years. it was from the states, had original 170mi and now close to 200mi. Mentioning that fuel consumption almost twice less than 94 caddy i looked at i also wanna say that i had to replace one ball joint cuz rubber cracked on it. well... thats it.
Still i agree - every make has a problem. some more and some less. but domestics are terrible. as for toyotas and hondas made in canada - the're made by japanise technology and out of japanise components - mostly.
my 86 mers still worth a lot more than 86 caddy of course.
a friend of mine in Ca also had problem with his merc - it burned =o) it had a little over 300mi by that time. and firet was the only problem he had in years - i suspect he did it though ;)
Anyways - i thank you all for the replies and i think im gonna buy another mercedes a bit newer accordingly to my budget.
Thanks again and good luck to all of you from russian-canadian car crazy Alex!

As for the cost of parts - grill on that caddy had to be replaced - piece of plastic costs $400 - something wrong here!

Randy_W
06-16-04, 06:54 PM
I've never seen a high performance MB engine that didn't use oil in the range of 1qt per 1000- 1500 miles. Now I'm certain all who enter here will tell me about thiers never needing oil. Well guess what? My Seville at 89k has never needed a qt of oil between changes, and I change it when the display tells me to. While Caddy's are expensive to work on, try pricing a tune up the MB dealer near you sometime!
Also bear in mind that a large chunk of the Mercedes cost difference is transportation from the 'Fatherland'.;)

While MB's are very nice cars, they are also amoung the most over rated machines in history! Studies show, if you take the diesels out of the equation, they are no more reliable than average.

Ralph
06-16-04, 11:05 PM
domestics are terrible.

Is that even a plausable statement anymore? Considering that you are quick to knock "domestics" have you considered that there are many Japanese, German, etc. engineers presently working for GM, Ford and Chrysler? Obviously, the past has it's shady areas, but when you consider the present ratings in quality surveys, etc. you should think twice about that statement. ;) I think the question to ask yourself is "Would you rather buy a NEW Cadillac OR Mercedes Benz RIGHT NOW." (if those were your only 2 choices) I don't have to tell you what my choice would be, and yes, all makes have problems, but don't generalize all domestics as being more problematic, that's just your opinion and very subjective at that!

My Dad's 1979 Nova with a 305 HAS YET to have a single breakdown! He bought it new, and I'm convinced that sometimes simple is better when it comes to automotive technology.

p.s. compare the price of that 400 dollar Caddy grille to a new Benz grille, then complain about it here. :tisk: Expensive bumper and grille components are just a fact of life now for pretty much any vehicle unless you go to a junk yard. I agree it SHOULD be cheaper than a solid steel bumper (for ex.) that might come off a '91 Grand Marquis, but it isnt.

Ralph
06-16-04, 11:10 PM
as for toyotas and hondas made in canada - the're made by japanise technology and out of japanise components - mostly.

So? By that logic, German engineered VW Jettas and Golfs made in Mexico should top quality ratings with the likes of JD Power and Associates. Guess what? They are at the BOTTOM along with Kia. :rolleyes2

1toycad
06-17-04, 01:44 AM
While MB's are very nice cars, they are also amoung the most over rated machines in history! Studies show, if you take the diesels out of the equation, they are no more reliable than average.
I don't know what you base your opinion on. But judging by the four Benzes that I have owned, (compared to the Caddies that I have owned) the Benzes are among the most reliable, better engineered cars on the road. Caddies are nice, but they have yet to match the build-quality, reliability and solid feel of the Benzes that I've owned.

Of course, it is not a fair comparison. Benzes are more expensive, so they will always be better cars. (BTW, Randy, what percentage of the Benz's cost do you attribute to transportation from Deutschland? And what percentage of a Caddy's cost do you attribute to shipping parts from Mexico and Canada to Michigan?)

I've said it before and I'll say it again. My 1999 SLS (which does drink a lot of oil between oil changes and only has 22K miles on the clock) will not last as long as my 1991 Benz (currently 248K miles on the clock). My daughter's 1989 300TE, with 189K on the clock, runs like it was new.

Do these cars have problems? Of course, anything mechanical will have problems. Over the years, however, a Benz will probably be cheaper to own than most cars because they last so darned long.

And we are not even going to mention depreciation. Look at Intellichoice's depreciation index. All Caddies lose a huge percentage of their initial value due to incredible depreciation. On the other hand, Benzes retain a high percentage of their initial value.

Still, I am happy, overall, with my 1999 SLS. It is no Benz, but it is a very nice car--the best American car on the market. If I could afford any car(s) that I wanted these are the cars that I would own:

Benz S500 (AMG version)
Cadillac SRX (V8 model)
Cadillac XLR
Mini Cooper S
And a Harley bike :lildevil:

Randy_W
06-17-04, 08:56 AM
"I don't know what you base your opinion on."



I base it on a JD Power study done a few years ago! When they took the gas engined cars from all the major car makers and compared reliability, the Mercedes came in mid pack! Many cars were rated higher, including Cadillac. I don't know what MB pays to ship that car to the USA, but it ain't free! By the way my sister in law just got a $1500 brake job on her 500 SEL. My Seville had a brake job with ceramic pads all around, it set me back $390. If a status symbol makes you tick, buy a MB and pay to play. If a very reliable car with great performance, that will out run the MB's in the same price range, and dosent look like you are trying to impress school girls, get a Caddy! If your Cadillac burns that much oil, it is abnormal. My car uses less than a qt between changes and my mom's DeVille has never had to have oil added ('98 with 131000 miles). If you have a problem with MB, you will pay a lot more to repair it than a Cadillac owner will, and they do have problems. Don't believe me, call your local autohaus and ask for an appointment!:rolleyes:

RBraczyk
06-17-04, 10:19 AM
Whoever says domestics are bad, should take a look at these
http://adepssimius.is-a-geek.com:81/rob/ODO%20reading.JPG - add 3000 miles to that...
http://adepssimius.is-a-geek.com:81/rob/Far%20away%20side%20shot.jpg

speedyman_2
06-17-04, 10:36 AM
OK, alot of you are also basing your opinions on JD power, and whatever else, blah blah blah. I look at cars on the road. I don't ever see these "run forever Benz's" when I go to work everyday. So where are they?? The only one's I see are newer models. One car I do see a lot are the 89-93 Devilles. I see them everywhere. Plus, I've seen three alone in my family and they were sold at well over 200,000 miles. Not becuase they were dead, but because my parents wanted to update. My father had another car before that. '87 Oldsmobile Delta 88. Over 250,000. Never had a full tune-up. Never burned a quart of oil. Not to mention the other coutless cars I know people with. Ran like new until he got rid of it also. So, in my opinion the Domestics win for reliability.

1toycad
06-17-04, 11:08 AM
"I don't know what you base your opinion on."



I base it on a JD Power study done a few years ago! When they took the gas engined cars from all the major car makers and compared reliability, the Mercedes came in mid pack! Many cars were rated higher, including Cadillac. I don't know what MB pays to ship that car to the USA, but it ain't free! By the way my sister in law just got a $1500 brake job on her 500 SEL. My Seville had a brake job with ceramic pads all around, it set me back $390. If a status symbol makes you tick, buy a MB and pay to play. If a very reliable car with great performance, that will out run the MB's in the same price range, and dosent look like you are trying to impress school girls, get a Caddy! If your Cadillac burns that much oil, it is abnormal. My car uses less than a qt between changes and my mom's DeVille has never had to have oil added ('98 with 131000 miles). If you have a problem with MB, you will pay a lot more to repair it than a Cadillac owner will, and they do have problems. Don't believe me, call your local autohaus and ask for an appointment!:rolleyes:
If you are going to base your car buying decisions on what JD Powers, or for that matter Consumer Reports has to say, then you should be driving a Honda or a Toyota, or their luxo versions, Lexus and Acura.

I drive Benzes because they are safe and reliable and because spread over thier life, they are far cheaper to drive than any other car. I do not, however, drive Mercedes to "impress the girls." I've been married to the same girl for 27 years and I am very happy with her. I do not need ot impress other girls--maybe others here do; more power to them.

In Southern California there are tons of "senior" Benzes still running around and making hteir owners happy. I can't say the same thing for the older Cadillacs. I do see a lot of mid 80's or late 80's Caddies running around, but they are mostly driven by people who want to attain a little bit of prestige without doling out a lot of dough.

Cadillac says that 1qt of oil per 1K is "normal." Bbobinsky seems to agree. I think he has referrred to it as a design feature. Go figure. My Benz, with 248K miles does not leak oil.

If you can afford to take a big hit with Caddillac's infamous depreciation, go ahead--that's cool. There are lots of used-Caddy owners who are only too happy that new Caddy owners are so generous and giving with their car's depreciation--it is the only way they can afford to buy a late model Caddy. I happen to be a little stingier and prefer my cars not to depreciate by over 50% of their original price within the first two years after purchase.


BTW, according to JD Power there is a 111 day supply of unsold new Devilles, a 117 day supply of Sevilles, a 114 day supply of Escalade SEV and a 116 days supply of SRXs. There is only a 51 day supply of unsold new Benzes and a 51 day supply of unsold new Benz trucks. Even at a higher price, Benzes sell better and faster than Caddillacs--even without rebates.

JD Power DOES rank Lexus #1 and Cadillac #2 in their 2004 IQ survey. They rank Mercedes as #10.

Some people use this ranking as evidence that Caddy is better than Mercedes. But some people have argued that the IQ survey is affected by the fact that Mercedes owners, having paid more for their cars, tend to be pickier, ar emore discerning and tend to be quicker to report problems--any problem at all. I am not sure how JD conducts their surveys, so I can't comment on that.

All I know is that, no matter what we say or would like ot think, the buying public is voting with their dollars--and they are buying Benzes.

Raze
06-17-04, 01:34 PM
One point of clarification, the supply numbers quoted from JD power by 1toycad may not correlate between total production versus the number of 'actual' vehicles supplied. Those numbers I assume refer to the US supplies, however we all know that Mercedes are imported and Caddys are manufactured domestically/semidomestically. To say that Mercedes is a better seller based on the supply numbers alone is inaccurate since it neglects the fact that a smaller supply reaches the US because of import regulations/corporate strategy (This helps keep the price high and resale value up, if you don't believe this statement read up on foreign auto value/depreciation in their domestic market and you'll see that Mercedes, BMW, and the like all drop just a quickly as Caddys do here. I can only point you to University librarys since they usually have detailed international economic data available).

I will not be making an argument for or against Imports or Domestics. However I would be interested in a comparison between the number of total cars produced by both Cadillac and Mercedes or BMW respectivley, the number of cars exported and to which country they go, what their 5 year depreciation rate is in that country and then a weighted average to see which one sells 'better.' Without an analysis any argument for or against which is a better seller is irrelevant.

Randy_W
06-17-04, 01:35 PM
You are right MB outsold Cadillac by around 2000 units last year, but that was way down from the 13000 unit advantage the year before. Also note that Chevy has the highest customer retention rate MB was third and Caddy was eighth.

1toycad
06-17-04, 06:46 PM
In Southern California, Benzes sell like hot cakes. Outside of Germany, So. California is the biggest market for Benzes (and other German cars). Wjhere I live, there is a Benz dealer within half a mile of a Caddy dealer. Both dealers are owned by the same corporation. I have spoken to the people at both dealers (since I take my cars to both dealers) and they tell me that overall the Caddy buyer is older (no big surprise there) than the Benz dealer. Interestingly enough, they told me that the Caddy buyer tends to be more affluent and often buys his car for cash. they also say that Caddy buyers tend to be "old money." Benz buyers, on the other hand, are younger and, except for the top of the line Benzes, tend to rely more on credit and leases (the high resale value of the Benzes make it a more attractive lease choice because of the higher residual value). The also tell me that the Benz buyers (at least in my area) tend to be entertaintment types and young professional (doctors and lawyers) and noveau rich.

I like Benzes and I will continue to buy them. As far as the best American luxo sled is concerned, in my opinion Caddy still wears the crown and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

elwesso
06-18-04, 12:02 AM
I didnt read all these posts, so forgive me if theres any overlapping..... :)

EVERY car I know of has one major design flaw..... Something that almost routinely fails, and sometimes even at a certain mileage.... Some more major than others....

For instance, on the 90-93 Q45 there was thing where the chain guides failed, and would cause the engine to basically selfdestruct...

The northstar had the headgaskets, we all know about that

This is the most disturbing: 1995 BMW 4.0 V8s had blocks that would disintegrate. Sulfur in US gas would cause the blocks to basically rot... $60,000 luxury car and you have a ENGINE BLOCK that rots! Gimme a break the germans are better than that

The Lexus LS400 (generalyl thought of as bulletproof) still had to be maintained with old school distributors, plugs/wires, etc.....



I think one of the major things, with american cars we complain about everything on american cars.. "my brake pads failed, I needed new tires after 20,000 miles, my water pump failed, the engine overheated and now I need a new engine"... ALL those things are considered normal maintenance, IMO.. And to most import owners, repairs they consider normal routine maintenace are complained about american buyers.....

Its also the public perception... Many threads on this, so I wont go into to details. No one EVER talks about the rotting blocks in the BMWs, or the cheap timing belts in the lexus engines... BUt they still talk about the failing headgaskets in the northstar :annoyed:

1toycad
06-18-04, 01:15 AM
I didnt read all these posts, so forgive me if theres any overlapping..... :)

EVERY car I know of has one major design flaw..... Something that almost routinely fails, and sometimes even at a certain mileage.... Some more major than others....

For instance, on the 90-93 Q45 there was thing where the chain guides failed, and would cause the engine to basically selfdestruct...
I agree with you on this respect. The early 4.2L engines in the 420SEL also used the plastic rail guides. They had to be repalced at around 85K or the engines could, potentially, self-destruct.

I had forgotten about those :canttalk:

Sandy
06-18-04, 01:52 AM
I do not care if (Insert your preferance here) Infiniti, Lexus, BMW, Saab, Mercedes-Benz, Volvo, Porsche, Audi, Rolls Royce, Bentley, Jaguar or any other is the BEST car, the least depreciating car, or whatever else one person's opinion might be. I AM an American, and I will support my country's product that keeps my fellow American working. That said, Cadillac & Lincoln are the cars I'll buy, and I think they are darn good cars..

Seems to me that the homeland of Germany sided with the French recently, against our president. Seems to me that the only support came from England, and Spain. If people were so darn mad at the French, that there was a campaign to call FRENCH fries another name, why would people want to support the country that sided with France?? That Mercedes S600 V-12 at $134,000 .... I could purchase two of them, one for me & one for my wife, and pay cash for both, no problem. BUT... I'd rather pay $45 to $50 thou for a Caddy or Lincoln, because I made THAT money in America, I saved it up in America, and by spending it **IN** America, it stays right here, In America, for others to earn & spend!! .... and now, my fellow Americans will procede to tell me how very wrong I am, but just make sure that your American Flag is tied tightly to your FOREIGN car's antenna.

My 2 cents.

speedyman_2
06-18-04, 05:04 AM
I do not care if (Insert your preferance here) Infiniti, Lexus, BMW, Saab, Mercedes-Benz, Volvo, Porsche, Audi, Rolls Royce, Bentley, Jaguar or any other is the BEST car, the least depreciating car, or whatever else one person's opinion might be. I AM an American, and I will support my country's product that keeps my fellow American working. That said, Cadillac & Lincoln are the cars I'll buy, and I think they are darn good cars..

Seems to me that the homeland of Germany sided with the French recently, against our president. Seems to me that the only support came from England, and Spain. If people were so darn mad at the French, that there was a campaign to call FRENCH fries another name, why would people want to support the country that sided with France?? That Mercedes S600 V-12 at $134,000 .... I could purchase two of them, one for me & one for my wife, and pay cash for both, no problem. BUT... I'd rather pay $45 to $50 thou for a Caddy or Lincoln, because I made THAT money in America, I saved it up in America, and by spending it **IN** America, it stays right here, In America, for others to earn & spend!! .... and now, my fellow Americans will procede to tell me how very wrong I am, but just make sure that your American Flag is tied tightly to your FOREIGN car's antenna.

My 2 cents. Finally, this is another reason. I've only had American cars. My Caddy is my 3rd car. This is probably the Best reason to have an American car!!! http://cadillacforums.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
Oh, and for everyone that's gonna post, "but, it has parts made in CHina, Japan, etc..." Whatever. It's still considered an American car!! So I don't wanna hear that crap! It's more American than a foreign car!!

1toycad
06-18-04, 10:11 AM
Finally, this is another reason. I've only had American cars. My Caddy is my 3rd car. This is probably the Best reason to have an American car!!! http://cadillacforums.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
Oh, and for everyone that's gonna post, "but, it has parts made in CHina, Japan, etc..." Whatever. It's still considered an American car!! So I don't wanna hear that crap! It's more American than a foreign car!!
With multi-mational corporation the "buy American" argument has lost a lot of its appeal. My wife's Yukon and my Cadillac have many, many, many components made in Mexico and in Canada. Let's see, the Canadian government recently turned its back on us. Even when Reagan died their PM refused to come to the US to pay his last respects (good thing that their ex-PM did show up). and the Mexican government allows polcies that perpetuate the illegal flooding of our borders AND the Mexican government will NOT extradite cop killers, rapists and other criminals to the US to be tried here. :want:

So, do you want your car filled with components manufactured by governments like the Canadian goverment (did not help us in the recent war) and Mexican government (habitually shields cop killers and floods our borders with illegal immigrants)? I don't. :tisk: But if I want to buy a GM, or any other american car, that's the price that we have to pay.

How about a Benz SUV, they are made here, would you not buy one and thus deny jobs to Tennessee workers? Same for BMW and Toyota.

How about a Chrysler. Will you not buy a 300C because Chrysler is owned by Mercedes?

And should a Brit refuse to buy a Jag because it is owned by Ford? Or a Swede refuse to buy a Volvo (Ford) or a Saab (GM)???

Where do you draw the line???

The rise of multinational corporations, whose assets are spread all over the world and who habitually rely on on foreign capital to finance production plants and human resources makes the "buy-(insert favorite country here)" moot as far as I am concerned.

Sorry, I am as American and as patriotic as the next guy (in fact, I was not born here, but I chose to live in the U.S.) but the "buy-American" argument no longer holds much water. And this is coming from a guy wose family boycotts Costco because I sincerely believe that Costco is doing its level best to destory America's economy.

My .02 worth (how much is that in Euros)? :lildevil:

Randy_W
06-18-04, 01:15 PM
"Buy American", still holds a lot of water! The free trade agreement was a mistake, not that we didn't need some agreement, that just wasn't it!:helpless:

1toycad
06-18-04, 02:04 PM
"Buy American", still holds a lot of water! The free trade agreement was a mistake, not that we didn't need some agreement, that just wasn't it!:helpless:
Try buying exclusively American, by a company owned only by Americans, with financing only from American capital, that only invests in America, that does not outsource out of America, that hires only Americans and you get...???

Sandy
06-18-04, 02:21 PM
Try buying exclusively American, by a company owned only by Americans, with financing only from American capital, that only invests in America, that does not outsource out of America, that hires only Americans and you get...???

Campbells' Soup :bouncy: :cheers: :banana: :p

1toycad
06-18-04, 03:16 PM
Campbells' Soup
Are you sure about that? :rolleyes:

How about the veggies they put in their soups? All-American? :hmm:

And the chickens? All-American? :hmm:

How about the tin in the cans? All-American? :hmm:

Look, this thread started out with one guy asking for an opinion regarding whether he should buy domestic vs. imported.

It has now turned into a forum for American values, apple pie and motherhood. Sheesh!!! :banghead:

The beauty of this country, among many other things, is that we have the God-given right (oh dear, now I'vbe started a religious debate here :lildevil: ) and the freedom to buy whatever brand or make of car we choose. As long as we have money to buy cash (like Sandy) or if you do it in the installment plan (like most of us) it is no one's business what we buy or drive. :tisk:

If you want to buy a Canadian-Mexican sourced Caddy, that's great. If you want to buy a Mercedes, made in Germany, by Turkish immigrants, using parts made in Hungary, that's fine too. Who cares???

Sandy
06-18-04, 04:08 PM
Peas! It's the PEAS! The Peas are grown in Chili, which is why when I eat their vegitable soup, i pluck out the Peas! I realize that I have allready paid for the peas, and thereby created an additioal demand for these off shore grown Peas, but I can't help that. Hopefully they'll intorduce Campbell's Pea-less soup-line!

(of course, I am kidding 'round.... I do agree, we are lucky to be able to say & buy anything we chose. It's a great country. I was only giving my opinion and what I believe in. I love America, and I don't wanna see it lose market share and entire markets to other countries.)

Speaking of.....My next-door neighbor buys a new car every 15 years (whether he needs it or not > :helpless: < his 1989 Lincoln Town Car has been waving the flag now for 2 years, but he has been "nursing" it. Prior he had a 1974 Mercedes of some model I don't recall. Wife just called me to come see what he brought home ! She was out looking at it. Says the window sticker says $90,000. It's (quote wife here) "Some kinda Jaguar" - White. Whoa.....Gotta go look. (That's a Ford, right? :canttalk: )

Randy_W
06-18-04, 04:47 PM
Try buying exclusively American, by a company owned only by Americans, with financing only from American capital, that only invests in America, that does not outsource out of America, that hires only Americans and you get...???
You must not have read my post! I said we needed an agreement, just not that one! The truth is "all American" doesn't really exist any more, too bad. I don't need imported status symbols to bolster my manhood, as well as the economies of Germany, Japan, Korea,etc... My '67 Impala SS does fine in that department, and it's about as all American as they come! It even has character! Unlike the new imports, I was behind a MB the other day and a Hyundai at a light, from a distance the tail lights and deck lid looked enough alike to mistake one for the other!;)

1toycad
06-18-04, 06:13 PM
I don't need imported status symbols to bolster my manhood, as well as the economies of Germany, Japan, Korea,etc... My '67 Impala SS does fine in that department, and it's about as all American as they come!
Randy, so you admit that you need your manhood bolstered.

My manhood is just fine; it does not need to be bolstered by a Benz, a Chevy or a little blue pill.

And, Randy, if you can't tell the difference between a Hyundai and a Benz, I suggest that it is not just your manhood that needs bolstering.

Look, if it makes you feel more manly to buy a car that is full of Mexican components (will not extradite cop killers) and Canadian components (did not help us out during the Iraq War)--that's great for you.

If it makes you feel more patriotic to buy cars from a company that recently built a factory in Communist China to build Buicks (thus giving the Communist government of China access to a HUGE chunk of our technology)--that's wonderful.

Maybe you can do like Sandy, buy your new Caddy and then take out the Canadian and Mexican components. What will you have left then?

(Sandy, I know you were kidding. I do like the image of you sitting down to dinner and plucking the Chile grown peas from your soup. That was hilarious!!! :worship: )

Sandy
06-18-04, 11:09 PM
'Ya know,to get serious for a moment (I get serious on Fridays) ~
We banter back & forth and sometimes verbally argue, but in reality, who would really want everyone to agree with them, and share the exact same thoughts, and look the same? We'd be reduced to large sized squarells, all fuzzy & grey, after the same nuts (don't go there!).

I respect the beliefs of those who do not agree with me, and I do always make an attempt to see things their way. I've been called "wishy-washy" only because I do sometimes admit that the other guy makes a good point, and I consider it and try to see it from a different perspective, and sometimes change my opinion, 100%. Nobody is always correct. What I verbalize is "right" for me ... it blends well with my beliefs, but....we all believe differently, too. (Only difference is.....
I'm always right! :) ) j/k

elwesso
06-19-04, 12:47 AM
I think I can respect all views on this..

Its an american name, so you buy it... HOwever, its still international. Hell theres a nissan plant in tenessee (or is it MB, not sure)...

I say go out and buy the car you want.. In the short run its ALWAYS affecting the american economy directly, no matter what brand you buy (the dealer).....

Buying used, it doesnt even matter what you do there. The money is in the hands of the foreign manufacturer, you might as well buy it there to keep the litlte used car dealer going.....



I respect peoples tonacity to buy american, and I will buy american when I can afford a new caddy, but in reality it doesnt really matter... Its all going to america, in one way or another!!!!!!!

Ralph
06-19-04, 04:24 AM
and Canadian components (did not help us out during the Iraq War)-

I am getting more and more tired of trying to enlighten some of you Yanks on this subject. You really need to spend more time in the Current Issues Forum, I've posted on this specifically!

FYI, Canada had special forces and regular troops in IRAQ and AFGHANISTAN before, during and after the "official" Iraq war was under way. I still have contacts in the forces. In fact, whenever there is a crappy job in Afghanistan, etc, Canadians get sent in by Uncle Sam. You see, Chretian at the time did not want us to become a terrorist target so he helped the U.S. government unofficially, but we were there. Canada had several soldiers fighting along-side the British in Iraq, (exchange program) and a few of them even got killed. I felt a need to enlighten you, because you are knocking my country (despite how pro-American I actually am). I won't bother getting into detail about D-Day. You see, the Americans weren't the only ones there! That day WE helped take Omaha Beach, Sword Beach, and were responsible for taking Juno Beach. One year earlier, in 1944, the AMERICANS sent in the Canadian soldiers for the Dieppe Raid that got the Canadians slaughtered! The Soviets wouldn't do it, nor the Americans. It seems many shyti soldiering jobs in the past and present that came around for the U.S., more than a few have been "passed along" to the Canadians to be dealt with, and we always have done our duty. Guess what, we NEVER turned down a challenge in battle, nor have Canadian soldiers EVER retreated in battle! EVER! I can post on that if you wish. It's a fact. Do a search on what Patton said about Canadian troops, and how he held them n high regard!

Regarding Reagan's funeral, our current PM was out of the country at the time, plus now he is fighting for his seat (and his political career) because we are having our Federal election this year also, and it doesn't look good for him. And just for you, I am trying to remember the last time an active American President came to one of our funerals. You pushed me.

Personally, I think you are just tired of trying to defend you Mercedes ownership to some of us, but I'll tell you this, the citizens of the country of origin of that Benz you are driving would not crawl through tunnels with a Browning Hi-Power and a flashlight in Afghanistan to hunt terrorists, nor tolerate the "friendly-fire" incident by the American pilots that got Canadian soldiers kiled trying to HELP the Americans! I don't like to bring up bad memories, but don't mouth uneducated opinions either.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/cdnmilitary/jtf2.html

Ralph
06-19-04, 05:01 AM
Let's see, the Canadian government recently turned its back on us.

You'd better enlighten me on this one! Our current PM is bending over backwards to help restore relations between the two countries after Chretian almost ruined it. But Canada has NEVER turned it's back. Besides, if we did, you could nuke us. ;)

I would bet that when you buy a Benz, most of the money still goes overseas to Germany. Perhaps if an American car is not really an American car, no one should buy them anymore, and it shouldn't hurt the U.S. economy then either? :rolleyes2

1toycad
06-19-04, 10:23 AM
Regarding Reagan's funeral, our current PM was out of the country at the time, plus now he is fighting for his seat (and his political career) because we are having our Federal election this year also, and it doesn't look good for him.

Ralphie, you just made my point for me. Why wouldn't it look good for your PM to come to Reagan's funeral? Simple, Canada is filled with a bunch of socialists, American-bashers who would like for nothing better than to see the U.S. bite the big one. To establish its independence, the Canadian government, and many Canadians as well, have been acting like a bunch of petulant, spoiled children. Canada did send troops to Afghanistan, but in the Iraq War Canada's government made a point of opposing the U.S. efforts to go into Iraq. Canada's participation in WWII nothwithstanding, Canada's recent record leaves much to be desired. History is history Ralph and you can't change facts.

Personally, I think you are just tired of trying to defend you Mercedes ownership to some of us, but I'll tell you this, the citizens of the country of origin of that Benz you are driving would not crawl through tunnels with a Browning Hi-Power and a flashlight in Afghanistan to hunt terrorists, nor tolerate the "friendly-fire" incident by the American pilots that got Canadian soldiers kiled trying to HELP the Americans! I don't like to bring up bad memories, but don't mouth uneducated opinions either.
Ralph, I DO NOT have to justify my car buying choices, to you, or to anyone else (except maybe the missus) I live in the U.S. and not in some socialist state, therefore I do not have to justify nor defend my car choices/ownership. If you are going to drag history and allegiances to the U.S. then I have to remind you that duringthe Cold War Germany agreed to allow the U.S. to set up nuclear missiles all over its countryside thus setting up the only deterrent to a Soviet invasion. While the rest of the world partied, Germans prepared themselves to be the only land deterrent to a Soviet invasion. In the years since WWII ended, German citizens here, in the U.S. and in Germany have done a lot more for the U.S. than crawl around with a flashlight.

It is sad that Canadians were killed by friendly fire. That should have never happened, but Americans, including Tillman, have also been recently killed by friendly fire.

You know, I am not the only person in the world who thinks that Benzes are superior to anything that GM has recently put out. Even GM has gone to great lengths to admit that for the last couple of decades they have put out CRAP. Look at the ads that GM recently took out, apologizing to the car buying public and promising to do better. Will GM ever refund the money to buyers who bought the crappy, underpowered, underwhelming Cimarron (myself ncluded) or to the buyers who bought diesel Caddies, thinking that they were going to be as reliable and long-lasting as Benz diesels, or to the buyers who bought the 8-6-4 abominations?

Maybe Caddy and GM ismaking better cars now. I hope so. I like the CTS and I like the new STS and maybe when I am through putitng all my kids through college maybe I can even afford to buy a new XLR. But look what is happening in at Chrysler. Only after Mercedes took them over have they started to make exciting cars that people want to buy and drive.

Are Benzes perfect? Of course not. It would be stupid for me or for anyone else to say so. I agreed with Elwesso that the early 4.2L engines in the W126 series were infamous for their plastic guide rails, which, when they broke, basically destroyed the engine. But you know what, you drive my 1991 420SEL with 248K miles onit and then you drive my 1999 SLS with only 22K miles on it, and if you are honest you will have to admit that the older car rides better, feels more solid and is more luxurious than the SLS. I've owned both Caddies and Benzes and I can tell you, up to the time of the introduction of the CTS and SRX series, the Benz is the superior car.

I am, however, willing to submit the question to a jury of 12, impartial, unbiased automotive experts. I am sure that the jury will vote for Benz time and time again.

It is truly sad than a thread that originally started when a member asked whether he should buy a used Benz or a used domestic, has turned into a chest-thumping contest to determnine who is more American/patriotic or who is mas macho or whatever. Ultimately, a person's choice of car is a personal thing, based on preferences, budget, etc. Seeing that a car is probably the second biggest purchase decision a person makes in his orher lifetime that decision should be as educated as possible and not based on false or faulty criteria.

Look, I have nothing much against Canadians or Canada. In fact, the only time I think about Canada is when I think about getting contraband Cuban cigars. Living in So. California, Mexico is a bigger problem/issue. But don't try to justify the purchase of a Canadian-content or a Mexican-content GM product by telling me how much Canadians and their goverment love, support, embrace, hug, etc., the U.S. and our people.

Maybe you should go back to worshipping Nattie and I go back to fantasizing about Zeta and then everyone can be happy again.

airbalancer
06-19-04, 11:07 AM
1toycad could you tell me why your goverment invaded Iraq oops war with Iraq
It was because Iraq had Nukes oops no Nukes
It was becauses Iraq had tons of chemical weapons oops wrong again
It was because Saddam Hussein had help Al Qaeda oops wrong again http://www.thestar.ca/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1087381798148

I have nothing against the American people most are good nature people, like everyone else in the world.
Your government on the the other hand is :bighead: :banghead: but I think that about our own government

elwesso
06-19-04, 01:03 PM
IF your gonna talk about this keep it in the current issues forum..... Thanks!

Ralph
06-19-04, 04:39 PM
Regarding Reagan's funeral, our current PM was out of the country at the time, plus now he is fighting for his seat (and his political career) because we are having our Federal election this year also, and it doesn't look good for him.

Ralphie, you just made my point for me. Why wouldn't it look good for your PM to come to Reagan's funeral? Simple, Canada is filled with a bunch of socialists, American-bashers who would like for nothing better than to see the U.S. bite the big one. To establish its independence, the Canadian government, and many Canadians as well, have been acting like a bunch of petulant, spoiled children. Canada did send troops to Afghanistan, but in the Iraq War Canada's government made a point of opposing the U.S. efforts to go into Iraq. Canada's participation in WWII nothwithstanding, Canada's recent record leaves much to be desired. History is history Ralph and you can't change facts.

Personally, I think you are just tired of trying to defend you Mercedes ownership to some of us, but I'll tell you this, the citizens of the country of origin of that Benz you are driving would not crawl through tunnels with a Browning Hi-Power and a flashlight in Afghanistan to hunt terrorists, nor tolerate the "friendly-fire" incident by the American pilots that got Canadian soldiers kiled trying to HELP the Americans! I don't like to bring up bad memories, but don't mouth uneducated opinions either.
Ralph, I DO NOT have to justify my car buying choices, to you, or to anyone else (except maybe the missus) I live in the U.S. and not in some socialist state, therefore I do not have to justify nor defend my car choices/ownership. If you are going to drag history and allegiances to the U.S. then I have to remind you that duringthe Cold War Germany agreed to allow the U.S. to set up nuclear missiles all over its countryside thus setting up the only deterrent to a Soviet invasion. While the rest of the world partied, Germans prepared themselves to be the only land deterrent to a Soviet invasion. In the years since WWII ended, German citizens here, in the U.S. and in Germany have done a lot more for the U.S. than crawl around with a flashlight.

It is sad that Canadians were killed by friendly fire. That should have never happened, but Americans, including Tillman, have also been recently killed by friendly fire.

You know, I am not the only person in the world who thinks that Benzes are superior to anything that GM has recently put out. Even GM has gone to great lengths to admit that for the last couple of decades they have put out CRAP. Look at the ads that GM recently took out, apologizing to the car buying public and promising to do better. Will GM ever refund the money to buyers who bought the crappy, underpowered, underwhelming Cimarron (myself ncluded) or to the buyers who bought diesel Caddies, thinking that they were going to be as reliable and long-lasting as Benz diesels, or to the buyers who bought the 8-6-4 abominations?

Maybe Caddy and GM ismaking better cars now. I hope so. I like the CTS and I like the new STS and maybe when I am through putitng all my kids through college maybe I can even afford to buy a new XLR. But look what is happening in at Chrysler. Only after Mercedes took them over have they started to make exciting cars that people want to buy and drive.

Are Benzes perfect? Of course not. It would be stupid for me or for anyone else to say so. I agreed with Elwesso that the early 4.2L engines in the W126 series were infamous for their plastic guide rails, which, when they broke, basically destroyed the engine. But you know what, you drive my 1991 420SEL with 248K miles onit and then you drive my 1999 SLS with only 22K miles on it, and if you are honest you will have to admit that the older car rides better, feels more solid and is more luxurious than the SLS. I've owned both Caddies and Benzes and I can tell you, up to the time of the introduction of the CTS and SRX series, the Benz is the superior car.

I am, however, willing to submit the question to a jury of 12, impartial, unbiased automotive experts. I am sure that the jury will vote for Benz time and time again.

It is truly sad than a thread that originally started when a member asked whether he should buy a used Benz or a used domestic, has turned into a chest-thumping contest to determnine who is more American/patriotic or who is mas macho or whatever. Ultimately, a person's choice of car is a personal thing, based on preferences, budget, etc. Seeing that a car is probably the second biggest purchase decision a person makes in his orher lifetime that decision should be as educated as possible and not based on false or faulty criteria.

Look, I have nothing much against Canadians or Canada. In fact, the only time I think about Canada is when I think about getting contraband Cuban cigars. Living in So. California, Mexico is a bigger problem/issue. But don't try to justify the purchase of a Canadian-content or a Mexican-content GM product by telling me how much Canadians and their goverment love, support, embrace, hug, etc., the U.S. and our people.

Maybe you should go back to worshipping Nattie and I go back to fantasizing about Zeta and then everyone can be happy again.









Out of respect for Wes, I'll keep this brief, then if you wish I can inform you in the CI forum.

Canada WAS represented at Reagans funeral FYI!

You're right, history is history, don't discount it. You are trying to change it by refusing to acknowledge our soldiers WERE fighting with the British in the EXCHANGE PROGRAM. It made our National News, why not CNN. :hmm: I don't change history, I tell it like I know it to be.

I agree, we have many politicians (and citizens) that don't support the U.S., those are not my feelings however. Canada initially opposed the war in Iraq (officially that's what you heard on the news) but we were there in a smaller capacity.(made our news!)

I am not asking you to justify owning a German car to me. Don't knock Canada trying to justify how superior a German car is to you.

We may still be known as a "socialist Nation" but I can park my car any way I want to and not get a ticket. :p About the only thing left that is socialist is our health care system, (and education) despite the fact that MANY private American style clinics have opened up here. Call it what you want.

If our participation in the coalition is not respected (crawling through tunnels with a flashlight can be stressful and deadly) perhaps we should just pull out? You should treat your Allies with a little more respect, or you may not have many left. Other countries (like Canada) should not have to be on our knees to be your friend, we are doing our part regarding this can of worms that has been opened up, (and dying for it) and NOT by us.

AB, I'm not going to waste my time unless he wants to continue this in the CI forum. I guess all our troops have to die, or do EVERY crappy job before we get respect and the U.S. media gives the whole story.

p.s. there are over 40 countries in the coalition, and we NEVER hear about their involvement, so don't claim to know it all when it comes to us. If we are so insignificant in the world, tell Michael Moore to stop going on our media and trying to sway the votes Liberal!

Natty is still better looking! :worship: Sorry. DONE!

http://canadianally.com/ca/terror/terror_military.asp

Ralph
06-19-04, 11:27 PM
1toycad, there is a thread created FYI in the CI Forum, see you there.

(I apologize to everyone else about hijacking this thread)

Randy_W
06-20-04, 12:38 AM
Randy, so you admit that you need your manhood bolstered.

My manhood is just fine; it does not need to be bolstered by a Benz, a Chevy or a little blue pill.

And, Randy, if you can't tell the difference between a Hyundai and a Benz, I suggest that it is not just your manhood that needs bolstering.

Look, if it makes you feel more manly to buy a car that is full of Mexican components (will not extradite cop killers) and Canadian components (did not help us out during the Iraq War)--that's great for you.

If it makes you feel more patriotic to buy cars from a company that recently built a factory in Communist China to build Buicks (thus giving the Communist government of China access to a HUGE chunk of our technology)--that's wonderful.

Maybe you can do like Sandy, buy your new Caddy and then take out the Canadian and Mexican components. What will you have left then?

(Sandy, I know you were kidding. I do like the image of you sitting down to dinner and plucking the Chile grown peas from your soup. That was hilarious!!! :worship: )


I guess ego would have been the word, not manhood!:D I was in a hurry when I typed that little ditty. But honestly one of the Hyndai models has tailights and trunk lid that MB could probably file suit over for copyright infringement. As for GM providing China with tech help, it's too late, the US government did that years ago! GM can't convey any technology that the gov't doesn't approve. Of course you do realize that Chinese tanks run on engines designed under liscense from Daimler? German tech prowess is legendary, but as we know few live up to thier legend. I have 40 year old Singer (American made through and through) in my shop, as well as a 25 year old Pfaff (German) and a Juki (part Japanese, part Korean). The Singer was the second most expensive in 2004 $$, the Phaff cost the most. The Pfaff has the big reputation as well. The truth is the Singer is by far the most dependable, the Pfaff is solid but has a problem now and then. When it does, it costs way more to repair than the others. The Juki is so erratic that I only use it as a back-up, but then it costs half what a Singer did and 30% of the Pfaff price.
As for the manhood thing, it was a misstatement and not meant to insult you, I should have said ego, though a lot of people feel 'things' make them better, I dissagree and wasn't implying you felt that way. As for manhood, it's a lot more than penis performance.;)

D148L0
06-20-04, 01:51 AM
1toycad, there is an thread created FYI in the CI Forum, see you there.

(I apologize to everyone else about hijacking this thread)
I consider you more intelligent than that... do you really want to keep wasting your time?

Jesda
06-20-04, 08:06 AM
The current Seville is more problematic than most conventional cars, but not MUCH more. You get cooling and oil-related problems with Northstar Cadillacs, while you get massive electrical problems with Mercedes-Benz and BMW. Pick your poison! The Japanese have been pretty consistently good, with a lack of style and flare being a major downside. And then there's Toyota's sludgetastic motors.

-Jesda

Ralph
06-27-04, 04:39 AM
Regarding maintenance costs, here is a reason domestics are cheaper:

http://www.motoringtv.com/archives/quakerstate/domesticcars.html

gothicaleigh
06-27-04, 06:01 PM
I've owned both Caddies and Benzes and I can tell you, up to the time of the introduction of the CTS and SRX series, the Benz is the superior car.

I agree that up until the Art&Science redesign, M-B was the better manufacturer. But you also paid for it.


I am, however, willing to submit the question to a jury of 12, impartial, unbiased automotive experts. I am sure that the jury will vote for Benz time and time again.

In just about every comparison done by any 'automotive expert' in the last few years, Cadillac has bested Mercedes. Go read what Road&Track, MotorTrend, Car&Driver, Automobile, etc. have to say. It will surprise you.

You may also find these interesting:

http://www.jdpa.com/presspass/pr/images/2003050b.gif

http://www.jdpa.com/presspass/pr/images/2004037c.gif

http://www.jdpa.com/presspass/pr/images/2003067a.gif

Randy_W
06-28-04, 08:29 AM
Says a lot!!!;)

1toycad
06-28-04, 01:38 PM
All it says is that if we had any brains, and based our car-buying decisions on auto surveys, and not irrational jingoism, we would should all drive Japanese-made Lexus--the perennial #1 car in J.D. Powers surveys.

This thread is getting so boring--people trying to justify their car buying choices is like trying to justify marriage choices. Who is a better wife, a skinny blond or a voluptous brunette--blah, blah, blah. :crybaby:

I think someone here put it best: buy what you can afford and drive what you enjoy.

Ralph
06-28-04, 05:20 PM
Who is a better wife, a skinny blond or a voluptous brunette--blah, blah, blah.

A skinny blonde that your wife doesn't know about. :D

1toycad
06-28-04, 05:39 PM
A skinny blonde that your wife doesn't know about. :D
Not bad....for a Canadian. :coolgleam

airbalancer
06-28-04, 06:11 PM
Ralph maybe we could move to Utah have both wifes.
Wait I have hard enough time with one!

Ralph
06-28-04, 06:21 PM
Ralph maybe we could move to Utah have both wifes.
Wait I have hard enough time with one!
LOL! Forget Utah, I'll go to Florida where the girls wear bikinis every month of the year! If we were Muslem, we could get 76! :bonkers: You're right, after one, I'm too worn out for more anyway.

:hmm: Domestic or import women? which are better :hmm:

Randy_W
06-28-04, 10:03 PM
All it says is that if we had any brains, and based our car-buying decisions on auto surveys, and not irrational jingoism, we would should all drive Japanese-made Lexus--the perennial #1 car in J.D. Powers surveys.

This thread is getting so boring--people trying to justify their car buying choices is like trying to justify marriage choices. Who is a better wife, a skinny blond or a voluptous brunette--blah, blah, blah. :crybaby:

I think someone here put it best: buy what you can afford and drive what you enjoy.This says a lot, too!:rolleyes:

If it bores you, move on!

1toycad
06-29-04, 01:11 PM
This says a lot, too!:rolleyes:

If it bores you, move on!The thread started out OK...it is now oh so boring though.

I do find the obsession that some Caddy owners have to prove that their ride is better than (fill-in-the-blank) to be simply fascinating, however.

I would like to see this issue submitted to a jury of twelve impartial "jurors." Pick the first 12 people that you meet out on the streets and ask each one of them: What would you rather get as a gift, a top of the line Caddy or a top of the line Benz. The only stipulation is that the person must keep the car for the next 10 years (can't sell it, trade it or give it away). I wonder which marque would be the People's Choice.

And Randy and Ralph, if you are ever presented with this choice, choose the Benz, give it to me, and I'll buy you any Caddy that you want. :lildevil: I'm sure that you will consider it more than a fair trade.

D148L0
06-29-04, 01:44 PM
I would like to see this issue submitted to a jury of twelve impartial "jurors." Pick the first 12 people that you meet out on the streets and ask each one of them: What would you rather get as a gift, a top of the line Caddy or a top of the line Benz. The only stipulation is that the person must keep the car for the next 10 years (can't sell it, trade it or give it away). I wonder which marque would be the People's Choice.And the probability of obtaining a knowledgeable result would be somewhere around, say, 0.00005%?.

1toycad
06-29-04, 02:39 PM
And the probability of obtaining a knowledgeable result would be somewhere around, say, 0.00005%?.
And I suppose Diablo, that you arrived at the above percentage based upon the vast amount of statistical knowledge available in Hell?

Diablo, I'll make ou the same offer that I made Randy and Ralph. If anyone ever offers you a top of the line Benz, go ahead take it and then give it to me. I'll then buy you the top of the line Caddy of your choice.

(dealing with the Devil, now that's a new one for me :lildevil: )

Randy_W
06-29-04, 02:52 PM
Caddy doesn't try to compete at the highest price levels, as MB does. There is no V/12 Cadillac, so that really isn't a straight on comparison. (When and if the sixteen V is produced, then the comparison can be made.) That would be akin to having the Benz compete with the top of the line Rolls, they are different markets. The Caddy competes very well within the classes they are meant to compete in.;)

1toycad
06-29-04, 05:18 PM
Caddy doesn't try to compete at the highest price levels, as MB does. There is no V/12 Cadillac, so that really isn't a straight on comparison. (When and if the sixteen V is produced, then the comparison can be made.) That would be akin to having the Benz compete with the top of the line Rolls, they are different markets. The Caddy competes very well within the classes they are meant to compete in.;)
Fine...then an S500 vs. a DTS...

Hell Randy, if they ever offer you a brand new Benz S500, take it, give it to me, and I'll buy you...hell, I'll even buy you an XLR and I'll throw Natty in the front seat. I don't mean that I'll throwh her in the front seat, I'll throw her in the deal.:coolgleam

BTW I take a Maybach over a Rolls...any old day of the week. Benz has Rolls covered at that end of the market.

Slick V
06-29-04, 06:42 PM
The thread started out OK...it is now oh so boring though.

I do find the obsession that some Caddy owners have to prove that their ride is better than (fill-in-the-blank) to be simply fascinating, however.

I would like to see this issue submitted to a jury of twelve impartial "jurors." Pick the first 12 people that you meet out on the streets and ask each one of them: What would you rather get as a gift, a top of the line Caddy or a top of the line Benz. The only stipulation is that the person must keep the car for the next 10 years (can't sell it, trade it or give it away). I wonder which marque would be the People's Choice.

And Randy and Ralph, if you are ever presented with this choice, choose the Benz, give it to me, and I'll buy you any Caddy that you want. :lildevil: I'm sure that you will consider it more than a fair trade.

How you going to compare the top of line benz($500,000) to the top of line cadillac($80,000)?

Ralph
06-29-04, 07:04 PM
The thread started out OK...it is now oh so boring though.

I do find the obsession that some Caddy owners have to prove that their ride is better than (fill-in-the-blank) to be simply fascinating, however.

I would like to see this issue submitted to a jury of twelve impartial "jurors." Pick the first 12 people that you meet out on the streets and ask each one of them: What would you rather get as a gift, a top of the line Caddy or a top of the line Benz. The only stipulation is that the person must keep the car for the next 10 years (can't sell it, trade it or give it away). I wonder which marque would be the People's Choice.

And Randy and Ralph, if you are ever presented with this choice, choose the Benz, give it to me, and I'll buy you any Caddy that you want. :lildevil: I'm sure that you will consider it more than a fair trade.

If I believed Benz was better (other than name reputation) then I might consider one. These Forums are helpful because others can post articles of competing auto companies problems. This is not flaming Benz owners, it is sharing consumer awareness, especially if many people seem to be experiencing a similar problem with a vehicle IMO. I think certain German cars are not as good as other German cars. I am actually looking over the new BMW X3's and 5's right now, and if they are a good vehicle, I would possibly consider one in the future. Or I might buy an SRX. It's all personal preference like you referred to. Lexus is currently the most reliable car on the planet, however, they seem very boring to me like dressed up Camrys, so I have no interest in them. I would buy a new 5 Series over a loaded Lexus if given those choices. I also go to many car sites like MSN.com autos for consumer reviews which are very interesting.(before I would purchase anything new) But until Benz gets rid of their electronics problems (I posted the article in Lounge) I wouldn't consider one. I am sure that your 1991 is a fine vehicle. Things change. ;) Given the fact that I've only owned American cars, and had good luck with them, I don't really see a need to change my buying habits, although it's great to look at everything and weigh the pros and cons of every vehicle I might consider. Tomorrow I may want a Ferrari so Natty can look good cruising with me, that can change.

As for the juror question, I think it would depend what age group we ask. I see a lot of younger people in a Benz as opposed to many older Dudes in Caddies. It would have to be a good overview of the population, and more than 12 would increase accuracy of the results IMO

If I ever win a new Benz, you are welcome to it, however, I'll take an XLR to go please. :bouncy:

Natty likes Caddies, and only rides with me. :D

Ralph
06-29-04, 07:10 PM
1toycad, have you honestly ever heard of a Caddy on this Forum having problems like these? What's your impression of this website? Every company has trouble, but some of these problems are serious.

http://www.mercedes-benz-usa.com/ml class.php


click your reliable ML's and see what it says.

Ralph
06-29-04, 07:31 PM
I would bet that when you buy a Benz, most of the money still goes overseas to Germany. Perhaps if an American car is not really an American car, no one should buy them anymore, and it shouldn't hurt the U.S. economy then either? :rolleyes2

Regarding globalization, I'm still waiting for a logical answer to this statement. :suspense: