: Can a 500cid from a 70's eldorado fit



84llacin
06-14-04, 03:39 PM
Could you fit a 70's 500ci eldorado engine in a 84 fleetwood brougham?:rolleyes:

DaveSmed
06-15-04, 12:13 AM
Yep. Look up the 81 models with the 368. Same block as the 500.

84llacin
06-16-04, 10:33 PM
thanks for the info

Mystical_Ice
06-18-04, 03:12 AM
keep in mind that the brougham is a RWD car, while the early 500 c.i. engines were only in Eldorados, which were FWD................ so unless you want to do transmission modifications too, i'd suggest a mid 70s,

caddydaddy
06-18-04, 07:54 AM
They are the same engines, just using different oil pans, and exhaust manifolds. If he uses the exhaust manifolds and oil pan from 368 or 425, it should work fine!


<<<<keep in mind that the brougham is a RWD car, while the early 500 c.i. engines were only in Eldorados, which were FWD................ so unless you want to do transmission modifications too, i'd suggest a mid 70s,

Mystical_Ice
06-18-04, 12:58 PM
i think you'd have to do some transmission modifications too. it's not just going to bolt onto the TH400.

DaveSmed
06-18-04, 02:59 PM
The FWD transmissions were basically TH400s mounted weird. They sat along side the engine, and had the same TH400 B-O-P bellhousing bolt pattern as the RWD Cadillac engines. They were also longitudally mounted in the engine compartment.

Mystical_Ice
06-18-04, 03:11 PM
so you think it would be fairly easy to drop a FWD early 70s eldorado 500 engine into a 368 c.i. 1980 cadillac RWD?

lux hauler
06-18-04, 03:50 PM
so you think it would be fairly easy to drop a FWD early 70s eldorado 500 engine into a 368 c.i. 1980 cadillac RWD?Yep......It'll be, pretty much, a bolt-in. The 368 and 500 are basically the same size and have the same motor mount locations. Use the oil pan, pick up tube, dipstick and tube (maybe a few other things) from the 368. The drivers side exhaust manifold from the fwd won't work......you'll need one from either a 472 or 500 rwd car. The bell' bolt pattern is the same too so the 500 will bolt right to the 80's transmission.

illumina
06-18-04, 09:50 PM
dont know a lot about these older motors, but i will tell you this... i have a magazine article that shows a guy putting a 500 cid. into an 82 coupe deville or something, and got the car to run 11.80s on a quarter mile, may be extreme for you case (dunno) but the point is that it is basically a direct bolt in for those cars. i will try and post some pics of the article as soon as i can.

lux hauler
06-18-04, 10:14 PM
dont know a lot about these older motors, but i will tell you this... i have a magazine article that shows a guy putting a 500 cid. into an 82 coupe deville or something, and got the car to run 11.80s on a quarter mile, may be extreme for you case (dunno) but the point is that it is basically a direct bolt in for those cars. i will try and post some pics of the article as soon as i can.I had some pictures (or a picture) of that car in the photo section of this board. The owner is a member of this board. His name is Jeff Schwartz (sp?).

illumina
06-18-04, 11:08 PM
I had some pictures (or a picture) of that car in the photo section of this board. The owner is a member of this board. His name is Jeff Schwartz (sp?).
cool deal...that is one MEAN caddy...i would love to see the faces of the people he smokes at the light with that big @$$ed caddy:D

Mystical_Ice
06-19-04, 12:51 AM
i know a few people that have put performance engines in their 80s cadillac, but only a few that have put 500s in. i'll give you the link to one such person, my idol:

http://www.mcsmk8.com/80CAD-500/MAVICA.HTM


also, this guy's DOCUMENTED his 368 --> 500 c.i. swap, a GREAT website to find information about swapping the engines, and he gives details of the different cadillac 'big-block' engines (368, 424, 472, 500)...
http://www.mindspring.com/~dburden/engine_swap.html <--- engine swap details
http://www.mindspring.com/~dburden/Caddy_engines.txt <--- cadillac's 4 biggest engines, in detail. GREAT GREAT GREAT reference site.

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Pit/9364/guide/Engineid.html <---- engine identification and conversion, and general (detailed) information


there... now you guys have all my 'reference' sites, and all my secrets :D you now know what i know ;) use it wisely :D

Mystical_Ice
06-19-04, 12:54 AM
so you're sure the 1970 and 1971 (eldorado models, FWD models) 500 engines will fit in a RWD 1980 brougham? without major modifications!? i'd have to change the mounts though, wouldn't i?

also, the 500 "longblock" is what i should get apparently. anyone have any information on this "longblock"? i'm assuming it's a 500 from the mid 70s, which went in the RWD cars

illumina
06-19-04, 01:36 AM
so you're sure the 1970 and 1971 (eldorado models, FWD models) 500 engines will fit in a RWD 1980 brougham? without major modifications!? i'd have to change the mounts though, wouldn't i?

also, the 500 "longblock" is what i should get apparently. anyone have any information on this "longblock"? i'm assuming it's a 500 from the mid 70s, which went in the RWD cars
http://www.500cid.com might want to try these guys...

lux hauler
06-19-04, 04:54 AM
70-76 500 blocks were identical......no difference at all. 70-74 472 blocks were the same as the 500 blocks except that the bore was different. The only differences in the 68-69 472 blocks is the oil passages are supposed to be a little different (smaller) and the bottoms of the cylinders are not notched for the longer stroke that the 500 needs.

Mystical_Ice
06-19-04, 07:34 AM
so even the FWD eldorados 500 engines were the same as the RWD mid-70s engines?

yeah i'm familiar with www.500cid.com :)

Also, this guy's first question: will a 500 cid fit in an 84 brougham. wouldn't that depend on what engine he has? i thought the 500 cid was only 'interchangeable' with the 368, 424, and 472. well as far as i know, only 1980, and 1981 brougham had the 368, didn't the 84 brougham have the 4100?

Mystical_Ice
06-19-04, 07:43 AM
yeah now that i think about it, i'm pretty sure the 1982-1987/1992 cadillacs had the HT4100, which means they don't have the TH400 transmission, which means it won't be as simple as just bolting the 500 down. i'm sure you can do it, but not as easily had you had a 368. if you have the 4100, get rid of that piece of shit. it's nothing more than a boat anchor, or maybe a paperweight.

DaveSmed
06-19-04, 02:44 PM
Correct, but given that they were the same body style, the 81 mounts will go right in the later HT4100 car. Thus my suggestion to look up the 81 parts. THEN its a bolt in. Also, if we were getting picky, IIRC there was a special trans for the 81s due to the V864 setup. I believe it was some variant of a TH350 instead of a TH400. Had the same bolt pattern, would WORK, but you better baby it!

Mystical_Ice
06-19-04, 03:01 PM
ok so for my 1980 cadillac (fleetwood brougham)... with the 368 carbureted. i'm wanting to get a 500 ci, ... preferably a 1970 or 1971 because of how much powerful they were than the other years (i don't really want to modify the engine much, because i'm aware that you can get the same HP and torque numbers out of any 70s year 500). i want to just drop an engine in. i've heard it'll be fairly easy, no major modifications (right?)... and i want to treat the engine the same as i treat mine, which is of course checking oil, water, etc. and changing oil every few 1000 miles. i don't want to have to take good care of it, and never push it. i want my car to be able to be a LOT faster and more powerful than it is now, particularly in low-end, like taking off from stop signs, etc. what would you recommend?

DaveSmed
06-19-04, 03:06 PM
I will try to check for sure what trans. you have. The only thing I really know for sure about the 81s is that they had a switch for the DOD setup.

lux hauler
06-19-04, 04:44 PM
so even the FWD eldorados 500 engines were the same as the RWD mid-70s engines?

yeah i'm familiar with www.500cid.com (http://www.500cid.com/) :)

Once again........70-76 500 blocks were identical......no difference at all.
If you're familiar with MTS.....check out the tech tips on their site.....lots of good info there.

Mystical_Ice
06-19-04, 09:27 PM
i'm not familiar with MTS... not even sure what it is :p

so when they refer to the 500 as a "500 longblock"...what's the difference between that and the other engine? I know absolutely nothing about old engines, but for the FWD eldorado, would the engine be mounted sideways? or facing the front.

Mystical_Ice
06-19-04, 09:28 PM
i have a 1980 fleetwood, so i'm pretty sure i have the TH400. i'm almost positive in fact, because the other two people that i know that did 368---> 500 engine swaps both said that they had the TH400, and they both did it on the 1980 cadillac.

lux hauler
06-19-04, 11:58 PM
i'm not familiar with MTS... not even sure what it is :p

so when they refer to the 500 as a "500 longblock"...what's the difference between that and the other engine? I know absolutely nothing about old engines, but for the FWD eldorado, would the engine be mounted sideways? or facing the front.MTS = Maximum Torque Specialties = http://www.500cid.com/
BTW.....they are revamping their web site and I can't seem to find their tech section.
A short block is the engine without the cylinder heads. A long block is the engine with the cylinder heads.....basically.
If you read DaveSmeds post, post #7 ( http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=114147&postcount=7 ), you will see that he said that the Eldo 500's were mounted front to rear. The transmission (th-425) was mounted to the back of the engine, just like the rwd cars. The trans wrapped around the side of the engine and was connected to the trans-axle. I'll have to look for the picture that I have of the '72 Eldo that I had so you can see what the engine looks like in the car.

Check out the link for some pictures........it's not my car but it'll show you how the engine sat in the car.
http://www.4arnolds.com/1972_eldorado.htm
http://www.4arnolds.com/eld12.jpg

Mystical_Ice
06-20-04, 12:47 AM
so despite what i've heard from other people... would you recommend buying a cadillac 500 (definately from a 70 or 71 eldorado), putting it on an engine stand, spending a few weeks and a few hundred $ to get it running, put a few performance parts in, and then dropping it into my 1980 fleetwood (with the 368)? i don't see it being that hard a job! probably a day's work or so.

would i be able to use all the factory options though? like cruise control, A/C, heat, the same steering column and power steering, etc.?

lux hauler
06-20-04, 10:02 AM
Don't pass on a 472 either. They'll probably be easier to find and are just as good an engine.
The best way to go about it is to find a complete, running car.
1970 was the last year of the high compression motors. '71 and '72 engines were basically the same except they had different pistons which made the compression lower. Starting in '72, they changed the way they figured horsepower and torque. That's the reason for the majority of the apparent power loss.
Regardless of the year......472's and 500's are going to have alot more power than the 368 that's in the car now.

Mystical_Ice
06-20-04, 10:50 AM
yeah but i want the most power :D :D :D

even if i have to look long and hard for it.

barge master
06-20-04, 09:41 PM
I've just gotten a super clean 80 FWB,and it's going to get the 500 treatment soon also.I don't claim to be a Caddy expert,but I put a500 in my Chevy p/u and have several other engines stripped or saved,so here's my 2 cents.ANY 500 or 472 you choose will be a big improvement,even low-comp ones.70 Eldo engines are a little tough to locate,but the pre 71 472s are some snotty MF's.The only reason I'm using a 500 is because it's low-comp and the gas thing is a factor.This job is a breeze in an 80 because the 368 is the same block,and the oil pump and pan needed are on it also.Just find a set of 425 pulleys [no air pump] to simplify that end of things and you're gonna have one cool car. :want:

Mystical_Ice
06-21-04, 01:14 AM
OK but i want to know about other stuff, like, hooking back up the A/C, steering column and power steering assembly (pump, etc.), hooking all the electronics back up (i don't even know if the 1980 has a computer, but i assume it does) like all the "Check Engine" and "Low Oil" and "Check Oil Pressure" lights, etc.

Caddy_freak
06-22-04, 09:37 PM
there was a special trans for the 81s due to the V864 setup. I believe it was some variant of a TH350 instead of a TH400. Had the same bolt pattern, would WORK, but you better baby it!
Hey wait a minute! Hold everything! :shocked2:

I did not know about this. I'm about to put a 500 in my 81 Fleetwood with the tranny from my 368.

But I still have the 76 TH400 Tranny that came with the 500. I could rebuilt it and just use the shorter tail of the other right?

How certain are you of this?

lux hauler
06-22-04, 11:10 PM
Look at the pan on the tranny that came out of the '81. If it's the same shape as the TH-400 pan, then they should be the same (or at least basically the same).
I had a site bookmarked that listed transmissions by year and body style......it looks like the page is gone now. :rolleyes2

Caddy_freak
06-23-04, 09:41 PM
Will do ....Thanks :D

84llacin
06-24-04, 01:27 PM
Thank you everyone for all the sites and info. My 84 did have the 4100 but someone before me dropped a 307 olds in it which is fine if done right but it wasn't. Very sloppy. My basic goal is to put an 8.0 in sounds stubborn, this is a frame up restore so modifying mounts are not an issue. I want to keep the class and luxuary of Cadillac but also to put it one way smoke mustangs and imports, After We Are the Standard of the Industry still? Thanks again for everyones help

Keith
06-28-04, 03:58 PM
There is some incorrect information posted in this thread, and one of the referenced web sites also has some problems.

500 cids came in Eldorados (FWD) from 1970 to 1976. They also came in RWD full size Caddys (Devilles) in 75 and 76. Whether originally in a RWD or FWD car, the transmission bolt pattern is identical, so that any 500 will bolt to any Caddy TH400 RWD transmission. I know this because I bolted up my 70 Eldo 500 to a TH400 from a 75 Deville - no problem.

FWD/Eldo 500 engines do have the following differences from RWD applications:
1. FWD starters will not work in a RWD application, but RWD starters will bolt right up to any 500 Eldo engine;
2. FWD cars did have a rear sump pan, which uses its own pickup tube, and the dipstick tube was in the rear most hole rather than the forward hole used on RWD cars - an easy swap. 425 pans/oil pickup tubes can also be used on both 472 and 500 engines, although they do require some clearancing for the 500. 368 pans will also bolt up to the 500, but a 70-76 Eldo pickup tube will have to be used and slightly modified (bent) to fit that pan.
3. I seem to recall that although the Eldo 500 exhaust manifolds will bolt up to any other 500 or 472 engine, that one or both may have a slightly different collector angle.

lux hauler
06-28-04, 05:20 PM
Keith,

If you re-read the whole thread, I think you'll see that most of the stuff you listed as being incorrect, WAS corrected by someone.

DaveSmed
06-28-04, 08:16 PM
The special trans wasn't all THAT special.... I think the biggest change was a switch to show when it was in third gear, so the DOD setup knew when to activate.

Caddy_freak
06-28-04, 11:30 PM
Good , so it should stand up to my 500 then, and not have an early death.:bonkers:

wildcatkit52
07-11-04, 05:01 PM
If you want the most powerful big cad you can get, the best year was 1970. After that they started lowering comp ratios. Like has been said above, 68-69 not as good do to oil passages, 472 and 500's all share the same block. the statment above that the difference was bore is incorrect. The only difference is the crank which effects the stroke. The 500 was born in 1970 as a stroked 472. At that time it came in only the front drive Eldo. The blocks are all the same so if you get a 76 block you can use heads off of a 70 472 or 74 500... Biggest thing to look for is know what heads go with what piston. Al at the 500cid.com site can sell you a complete engine ready to drop in if that is what you want. These engines last for years as they had a higher nickel content which makes them hold up longer due to less wear... they are also quite lite for the amount of cubic inches they sport... You can also offset grind either crank to use big block chevy rods, which will give you even more cubic inches and better oiling. Check out the book "Big Inch Cadillac"... You can look it up on Amazon.com. It has all the info you need about this family of engines... For sake of saying it, the 425 is the newer little brother of the 472/500, only it DID have a smaller bore. I live in Arkansas and am strongly considering going around to every hunk of old caddy used as redneck yard decoration and coming back with the car for $100 down to free... That is basically how I got my first 1970 472... My dad bought a house about 15 years ago and a deville was left to rot away until I looked under the hood and woundered what the hell that thing was! Now the car is long gone and the engine is waiting for me to get back from Baghdad to build it, add bulldog aluminum intake and heads, inject it and put it in the 92 Camaro I just purchased off of ebay... :worship: I would like to thank and praise GM for producing this marvel of a motor that produces numbers with the best of them, has lower comp ratio, and still can be found for prices unheard of comparitivly...

lux hauler
07-18-04, 08:49 AM
wildcatkit52,
You are correct about the 472 bore......I stand corrected.

I hope for a safe and speedy return home for you and all others. Thanks for your service!!! :2thumbs:

Shoehorn
08-04-04, 06:31 AM
The eldorados had their engines mounted longitudinally, so there is no transmission issue. It's not weather it was FWD or RWD that matters. It's if the engine was Transverse or longitudinal.