: Next Generation CTSV (V.3) - What if...



Dr. Design
09-03-08, 09:11 PM
Hello,

As the big release date is still on the horizon for the 09MYCTSV and the ever changing landscape of the economy got me to thinking about the future of Cadillac. The future of Cadillac with the new CAFE regulations will certainly be in for some major changes over the next decade. My question is, what if Cadillac went to a high output V6 to power the next gen CTSV? Figure the power would still be in the same neighborhood of where the V2 CTSV is coming in at, but the subtraction of (2) cylinders would be present. What would the perception be of a vehicle like that? Does a vehicle like this need to have a V8 to get its point across? Would CTSV owners consider making the move if Cadillac went in that direction?

Just curious....Feedback and responses are much appreciated.

Thank you,

Dr. Design

HiTechRV
09-03-08, 09:14 PM
You loose market appeal going down on cylinders unless you significantly increase power over the model you replace. Unless you can hold equal performance and go up a LOT on mpg - to the point of being able to claim being green - say 30 mpg highway - then it works.

IMO you are better off with a small V8 and a big electric motor to get MPG and gobs of torque. Tune the V8 for high RPM performance and get a big enough electric to get it moving.

buf05CTSV
09-03-08, 11:27 PM
I could never switch down to 6 cylinders if given the choice. I really hate to say it, but if a German counterpart was still making a high output V8, that would be way more appealing. I'm not worried though, I'm so ready for a V2, and when I get one, whenever that may be, I'll just do what's necessary to keep up 5 years + down the road. I'm always American First, and I'd hate to see our muscle get replaced with import antics.

CIWS
09-04-08, 06:59 AM
The Volt V - the next true V car. :D (only Cadillac will probably call it the Cadillac EMF, so the EMF-V)

NormV
09-04-08, 10:06 AM
For engine details I would follow what GM does for the C7 Corvette as the rest of GM usually gets the hand-me-downs.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=2083232

It will probably be smaller to get the econ:

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=2083232

Maybe a boost 4.7 with DOD:

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=2020379

Norm

Dr. Design
09-04-08, 12:05 PM
The 4.6N* is similar and can be evolved to use DOD. The motor has been around for almost 20 years, so I am sure they could develop it a bit more to bring it to tomorrows standards. Its a very capable motor!

Assuming that they go with a V6 FI motor. Would people scoff at that idea with a vehicle that screams american muscle? I agree with HiTechRV in that you might loose some of the market by doing that. However if we were talking about a 3200 lbs sedan with 500BHP you are looking at a power to weight ratio of about 6.4lbs:1BHP. That is about a full (1)lbs per BHP over the incoming V2.


Something to think about....

Thanks,

Dr. Design



For engine details I would follow what GM does for the C7 Corvette as the rest of GM usually gets the hand-me-downs.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=2083232

It will probably be smaller to get the econ:

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=2083232

Maybe a boost 4.7 with DOD:

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=2020379

Norm

NormV
09-04-08, 12:13 PM
If economy is the key the N* is too old and heavy. Pushrods are here to stay. :)

Hope the price doesn't double with the use of exotic materials.


Norm


The 4.6N* is similar and can be evolved to use DOD. The motor has been around for almost 20 years, so I am sure they could develop it a bit more to bring it to tomorrows standards. Its a very capable motor!

Assuming that they go with a V6 FI motor. Would people scoff at that idea with a vehicle that screams american muscle? I agree with HiTechRV in that you might loose some of the market by doing that. However if we were talking about a 3200 lbs sedan with 500BHP you are looking at a power to weight ratio of about 6.4lbs:1BHP. That is about a full (1)lbs per BHP over the incoming V2.


Something to think about....

Thanks,

Dr. Design

Dr. Design
09-04-08, 12:48 PM
Too old?? The pushrod motor has been around forever. I dont know that the N* is too old. It may be a little dated, but like the pushrod engines, it can be revised and made more efficient. Dont get me wrong, I love pushrod motors. I think there is more left in the N*....

As for the exotic materials. Just like any new technology it can be produced for less given some time. I am sure by 2013 the automotive industry should have found a way to use exotic materials for less.

Dr. Design


If economy is the key the N* is too old and heavy. Pushrods are here to stay. :)

Hope the price doesn't double with the use of exotic materials.


Norm

CIWS
09-04-08, 12:50 PM
I am sure by 2013 the automotive industry should have found a way to use exotic materials for less.

Dr. Design


I realize it's just a guess, but what do you think a gallon of gas will cost on average in 2013 ?

lawfive
09-05-08, 12:41 PM
Depends on how much and how fast we drill, baby, drill!!

Dr. Design
09-05-08, 01:56 PM
Depends on how much and how fast we drill, baby, drill!!
:yeah:

Honestly I dont really know. And if we ask the speculators I am sure they will tell us something we really dont care to hear. :banghead: But the idea behind this post is to assume that the industry goes the direction of small displacement H/O engines....would the consumers get behind something like that.

Thanks,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac

edsuski
09-05-08, 05:21 PM
The Volt V - the next true V car. :D (only Cadillac will probably call it the Cadillac EMF, so the EMF-V)

Actually - in the very near future - the fastest cars will be electric. If it is true, as GM claims, that 78%of us travel less than 40 miles per day, then a high performance Volt "type" product is likely. Imagine a car that could run the generator and use the battery at the same time while delivering 100% torque to possibly four wheel mounted electric motors. Obviously - this mode would not be used unless extreme performance were demanded from the driver (read all the time for most of you), but ultimately - performance will be an electrical engineering problem and not a mechanical one.

CIWS
09-05-08, 05:59 PM
Actually - in the very near future - the fastest cars will be electric. If it is true, as GM claims, that 78%of us travel less than 40 miles per day, then a high performance Volt "type" product is likely. Imagine a car that could run the generator and use the battery at the same time while delivering 100% torque to possibly four wheel mounted electric motors. Obviously - this mode would not be used unless extreme performance were demanded from the driver (read all the time for most of you), but ultimately - performance will be an electrical engineering problem and not a mechanical one.

Yes :D

Electric cars can be very fast. All one needs is the little button to go to performance mode. :yup:

Dr. Design
09-05-08, 06:20 PM
Exactly!!!

Actually - in the very near future - the fastest cars will be electric. If it is true, as GM claims, that 78%of us travel less than 40 miles per day, then a high performance Volt "type" product is likely. Imagine a car that could run the generator and use the battery at the same time while delivering 100% torque to possibly four wheel mounted electric motors. Obviously - this mode would not be used unless extreme performance were demanded from the driver (read all the time for most of you), but ultimately - performance will be an electrical engineering problem and not a mechanical one.

CIWS
09-05-08, 06:32 PM
Exactly!!!


Which is why I said there may be a "EMF-V" :D

Albertan
09-05-08, 08:08 PM
Buick Grand National, Cyclone and Typhoon were pretty well received by high performance people weren't they? In their day GM didn't make a higher performance V8. I can see this combo coming back for North American cars.
Most imports are already doing it.

HiTechRV
09-07-08, 10:00 AM
The N* had already been killed in favor of a new luxury V8 when gas prices spiked and the engine program was publically killed.

I like the N*. There is certainly the possibility of taking the SC N* in the STS and XLR V's, reducing displacement, and moving to an electric blow off valve that can be opened to reduce back pressure and improve MPG. You'd have to sleeve it down like they did in the Bonnie GXP or the Aurora to reduce displacement and improve MPG.

Personally though I'd like to see continued development of the engine in the Escallade Hybrid (5.3l? + big electric). This motor would make a car scoot as it is today. Tune out a little move NVH and add some more power and you have high performance, lots of torque (electrics make 100% of their torque at 0 RPM), and the ability to claim that *all* V's are green. V then becomes synonomous with performance AND being seen as green. That's why Escallade hybrid has a wait list while the rest of the hybrid trucks sit on lots. The high end market can afford to pay the price penalty for a hybrid powertrain, just to be percieved as being green. Then the development on this motor can be shared on a lot of other vehicles later, such as the other hybrid trucks, G8 and even Camaro. It makes up for the MPG penalty of RWD. It even lets you have an all wheel drive V if desired.

concorso
09-07-08, 04:29 PM
I thought the Escalade Hybrid will use the 6.0L...

HiTechRV
09-07-08, 05:21 PM
Not sure. Very nice if it does. Should work either way. The concept being that a V8+electric powertrain that can push a truck, and be smooth enough for an Escallade, is half way there to being a V powertrain since the car is lighter. The mileage would be considerably better in a car than it is in a truck. Obviously the packaging is easier in a truck.

CIWS
09-08-08, 07:30 AM
Yeah the hybrid Lade is 6.0 ltr @332HP