: '09 CTS-V vs. '08 BMW M5 SMG



cmltx1
08-21-08, 11:21 AM
Thought everyone might find this one interesting...

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=31&article_id=6996

Cadillac Tony
08-21-08, 11:26 AM
Cadillac brought hot-shoe John Heinricy while BMW tapped Bill Auberlen.

The Manufacturers bringing out Auberlen and Heinricy shows how much both sides wanted to win this challenge. This is so cool. :D

V-Love
08-21-08, 05:40 PM
Finally! 4 days untill we have something more to devour. Can't wait for it to blow that things doors off. This should be the start of all the magazine tests. This is gonna be great.
Now, who has the inside info before Monday?

Kidhummer
08-21-08, 08:51 PM
Damnit!!! why are they making us wait.. I want to see the results now!!!! Caddy had to rip it a new one

caddiedrummer
08-21-08, 09:30 PM
I have an M5 SMG and CTS-V on order. I traded an XLR-V for the M. Let me say after having a number of Caddies the new V will have to be awful good to beat the fit ,finish and quality of the M. It is a magnificient car.

Even if the V beats it in a straight line it will have to go a long way to handle like the M which I can take in the corners about as fast as my Viper SRT. I am excited and hopeful about the new CTS-V but when I recall all the piddly issues with my wife's XLR and my XLR--V, it is going to have to have come a long way. Why do I keep ordering Caddies? Eternal optimism over American muscle. (how else can you explain 4 Vipers and 2 Vettes):banghead:

digital1021
08-22-08, 01:23 AM
I would first like to say that the XLR-V while a nice car is not the best handling of the V series, I think that honor currently goes to the Gen 1 CTS-V.

Another thought, if BMW of America is in fact participating in this "battle" they are in a sense validating Cadillac's standing as a "true luxury" competitor and proprietor of sports luxury vehicals. Granted, this only has any useful effect if the Gen 2 CTS-V wins the competition.

I say this because this is the first time that I am aware of, some one correct me if I am wrong, that BMW has ever recognized and competed against an up comming competitor in such a fashion. All the M5 vs E63 vs RS6 and M3 vs RS4 vs C63 competions that I am aware of are done purely by Car Mags and shows like Top Gear. None have any factory backing to the actual test.

I am interested in all your opinions on this.

NormV
08-22-08, 10:38 AM
Definitely 'merican bias! Take the engineer and his test mule to compete against a race car driver who is used to driving prepped 3-series put him in a 4000 lbs. Anyone want to guess the results?! D'uh! :)

Norm

mtwabo
08-22-08, 10:41 AM
I currently own a 545i and the ride and fit on that car is amazing before that I had a C6 and that car was junk sure it was fast but the car got sideways everytime you got on it or took a turn to fast.

Im betting the V is faster 0-60 and 1/4 mile but for handling and finish I bet the M5 is night and day, GM is getting better but the Germans really know how to design a car

SDS1
08-22-08, 11:33 AM
If the M5 is really significantly better in handling over the CTS-V2, they should post new times at the "Ring" that are lower than Cadillac's 7:59.

I've driven M5's and they're great cars. My wife drives an ACS prepped 3 series and tracks it, so I'm not anti BMW.

But unless BMW and other manufacturers that use the ring to tune and develope their cars post a timed video run at Nurbergring under the CTS's time, magazine handling comparisons to other cars will not have much credibility in my opinion.

Steve

Cadillac Tony
08-22-08, 11:44 AM
Im betting the V is faster 0-60 and 1/4 mile but for handling and finish I bet the M5 is night and day, GM is getting better but the Germans really know how to design a car

I'll take that bet- how much do you want to wager? :)

NormV
08-22-08, 12:18 PM
Think John is going being the 6-speed or automatic to the fight?! :)


Norm

Cadillac Tony
08-22-08, 12:24 PM
Considering it's an SMG M5, I'd say it's the Auto CTS-V.

NormV
08-22-08, 12:56 PM
I agree! It'll be a ringer since the venue is just the track. GM has come along way and has left all other domestics in this category behind, especially Lincoln.

Considering a torque converter is old school GM has something to prove with pushrods to bboot. Besides that it is programmable which means they can adapt it to this specific course. The manual Vy will not be any faster. :)


Norm


Considering it's an SMG M5, I'd say it's the Auto CTS-V.

Kidhummer
08-22-08, 03:01 PM
Check out what the BMW guys have to say:
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/gtboard-com-general-sportscars/119922-cadillac-cts-v.html (http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/gtboard-com-general-sportscars/119922-cadillac-cts-v.html)

CIWS
08-22-08, 03:37 PM
The 09 CTS-V bested the M5's ring time by what 14 seconds ? (I think that's right). Sounds to me like it severely out handles the current version on a road track. But hey we'll see on Monday :D

chris1268
08-22-08, 03:43 PM
The 09 CTS-V bested the M5's ring time by what 14 seconds ? (I think that's right). Sounds to me like it severely out handles the current version on a road track. But hey we'll see on Monday :D



Is it Monday August 25th or September 25th that we get all this info? I have now heard both of these as benchmark dates? Anyone have anymroe info?

CIWS
08-22-08, 03:46 PM
Is it Monday August 25th or September 25th that we get all this info? I have now heard both of these as benchmark dates? Anyone have anymroe info?

The regular NDA seems to be Sept. 24th. But this article says "check back on August 25th when we will reveal the winner!"

chris1268
08-22-08, 03:52 PM
The regular NDA seems to be Sept. 24th. But this article says "check back on August 25th when we will reveal the winner!"


Thanks

Seattle CTS-V
08-24-08, 05:30 AM
I currently own a 545i and the ride and fit on that car is amazing before that I had a C6 and that car was junk sure it was fast but the car got sideways everytime you got on it or took a turn to fast.

Im betting the V is faster 0-60 and 1/4 mile but for handling and finish I bet the M5 is night and day, GM is getting better but the Germans really know how to design a car


Your 545 didn't have enough torque to get it sideways. Should have just bought a Hyundai. I've driven M5/M6s at the ///M school and they are nice cars...but I have to tell you that all I needed was a set of $600 coilovers and my '05 CTS-V handled better. Look up my youtube video and watch me school a guy in a new M5 (and I've only done 5 track days my whole life). The new V is gonna embarrass a bunch of bavarians.

As far as Germans really knowing how to design a car you should ask the tool that designed my Cayenne Turbo's plastic window switches and air vents why all the damn paint is peeling after only 3 years. Also ask them why burning a full quart of expensive 0-30 Mobil-1 oil every 6 weeks is 'normal'. Why did the rear tailgate struts go out in 3 years? Why did all 8 of the coil packs need replacing in 3 years? Yeah, awesome German superiority!

NormV
08-24-08, 08:41 AM
...As far as Germans really knowing how to design a car you should ask the tool that designed my Cayenne Turbo's plastic window switches and air vents why all the damn paint is peeling after only 3 years. Also ask them why burning a full quart of expensive 0-30 Mobil-1 oil every 6 weeks is 'normal'. Why did the rear tailgate struts go out in 3 years? Why did all 8 of the coil packs need replacing in 3 years? Yeah, awesome German superiority!

Lot of the those parts are supplier parts. Just like GM and inferior parts they put on their cars. Not a design fault. If you have not spent time in the Porsche world you know the oil replacement is common to the design. :)

Norm

Seattle CTS-V
08-24-08, 02:29 PM
Lot of the those parts are supplier parts. Just like GM and inferior parts they put on their cars. Not a design fault. If you have not spent time in the Porsche world you know the oil replacement is common to the design. :)

Norm


Doesn't matter who made it - it's still Porsche's problem. Everyone blames Cadillac for faulty parts so why not fault Porsche?

The design of the Cayenne's twin turbo V8 isn't the same as the ubiquitous boxer 6's in all of the other models (as far as I know.)

My ultimate point is that a lot of people don't respect American cars for their perceived lack of quality, design and performance (handling especially). I'm just trying to point out to those German car lovers that their shit stinks too...and it typically costs a lot more which makes it even more inexcusable!

big_tugg
08-24-08, 05:07 PM
do the BMW/MB fans trash talk the vette the way the attacked the new CTS-V?

Flavoade
08-24-08, 06:54 PM
All the time. They are really irritated by the Z06, and probably are disgusted by this new V.

NormV
08-24-08, 08:06 PM
I thought German car owners had more smarts

The Germans would work through their bad batch of parts. Caddy is still working on the Nav buttons on the cts and other makes. The CTS diff got an updated bushing in 08 for the Soltice. All the manufactures are doing the same thing. When GM makes caddy replace the whole Nav that works fine just for the buttons hiss who pays? The supplier as Gm jus charges it back to them. Guess who suffers? Us, the purchaser. If I was buying European outside of a domestically owned company, Saab is still GM, I would definitely have s warranty to cover my expenses. The forums are worth their weight in gold if they are used. I could see when a manufactor was going through a bad batch of parts as we'd be all in the the same thing. When a bunch of my buddies own the same German car we could see that there was a bad batch of sway bar endlinks as they were replaced just about whenever we brought the car in. Eventually we got to the good batch.


Doesn't matter who made it - it's still Porsche's problem. Everyone blames Cadillac for faulty parts so why not fault Porsche?

The design of the Cayenne's twin turbo V8 isn't the same as the ubiquitous boxer 6's in all of the other models (as far as I know.)

My ultimate point is that a lot of people don't respect American cars for their perceived lack of quality, design and performance (handling especially). I'm just trying to point out to those German car lovers that their shit stinks too...and it typically costs a lot more which makes it even more inexcusable!

NormV
08-24-08, 08:16 PM
Most Porsche owners can drive! Can't say for the vette drivers that for hit local cruise-in.
Car&Driver already made reference to the pushrod LSA. I guess the magazines are on to it or the demographics. We'll let the perproduction V2 set the stage.

Norm

do the BMW/MB fans trash talk the vette the way the attacked the new CTS-V?

onebadcad
08-25-08, 01:09 AM
Here is the link from the M5 Board:

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60-m5-e61-m5-touring-discussion/123956-upcoming-article_-road-track-bmw-m5-08-smg-vs-cadillac-cts-v.html

A few posters defend the V2's performance and value, most bash it, but that's what happens when you go on the competitor's board-kinda like here. I think the CTS-V will win the performance and handling, but have yet to see any Auto Rag praise Amercian 'fit and feel'. Then again, for a $20K savings (which would have to go for mods), I can overlook a trunk liner that may be .000001 of an inch misaligned.

V-Love
08-25-08, 01:22 AM
Its the 25th! Anybody have any advance word? It must have leaked out somewhere. Someone must have posted it somewhere.

v84life
08-25-08, 02:22 AM
My wife's Cayenne fell apart also... :canttalk:

I think Cadillac has a true winner with this car. I hope all the delays in production will only produce a wicked performance sedan with a fit and finish to rival the Germans....:drool: Please ,please Gm get it RIGHT

Seattle CTS-V
08-25-08, 12:23 PM
I thought German car owners had more smarts

The Germans would work through their bad batch of parts. Caddy is still working on the Nav buttons on the cts and other makes. The CTS diff got an updated bushing in 08 for the Soltice. All the manufactures are doing the same thing. When GM makes caddy replace the whole Nav that works fine just for the buttons hiss who pays? The supplier as Gm jus charges it back to them. Guess who suffers? Us, the purchaser. If I was buying European outside of a domestically owned company, Saab is still GM, I would definitely have s warranty to cover my expenses. The forums are worth their weight in gold if they are used. I could see when a manufactor was going through a bad batch of parts as we'd be all in the the same thing. When a bunch of my buddies own the same German car we could see that there was a bad batch of sway bar endlinks as they were replaced just about whenever we brought the car in. Eventually we got to the good batch.


Thanks for stating the obvious information about how manufacturers work though bad batches of parts. You've missed my point entirely. Re-read. Maybe we should get back on topic. Sorry OP.

big_tugg
08-25-08, 01:35 PM
also, what is up with this "the car/engine is 3 years old". They made it clear that if the V won that, that's their excuse. I saw another comment about m5 will see 600hp. I guess everybody forgetting these are sedans...I dunno I thought it was more than a hp war...plus being that the V now has force induction wuts 50hp...minor mods/adjustments can fix that.

Bigron
08-25-08, 02:44 PM
Still no update?

whisler151
08-25-08, 05:33 PM
Go to http://www.roadandtrack.com/video/ Search CTS and it is the second video. It doesn't give much in way of numbers...still fun to watch. I hope they give the full update soon!

cmltx1
08-25-08, 05:51 PM
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=31&article_id=6963

Still doesn't tell us too much, but I think this is it...

lusterblade
08-25-08, 05:52 PM
Go to page 2

LV_V
08-25-08, 05:54 PM
Nope, here it is, cut and pasted for you all:

The massive construction around the grounds has left a lot of dirt on the track. It's a new surface and will take a few race days to become seasoned. John and Bill are a little apprehensive about some water on the back side of the track that's in shade and also the ever-present dust that seems to be embedded in the surface. They don't seem to worry much as they reach just shy of 150 mph down the main straight on their first run. The first session goes for 20 minutes and the first overall track record is appropriately set by the CTS-V at 2 minutes, 47.55 seconds. Heinricy has countless hours behind the wheel of the car and is right at home; he's also an experienced racer it shows. The glossy black and chrome of Lord Vader's ride taunts Auberlen into action. He has been racing BMWs for years, but hasn't been in an M5 for four years, yet gets situated quickly. He switches cars from the 6-speed manual to the 7-speed SMG-equipped car and rips out a 2:45.96 and the Cadillac crew cringes. Team BMW is suppressing grins.

Heinricy is confident his 6-speed manual V can run with the ultra-racy paddle-shifted M5. Looking at the stats, the V has a big advantage with 56 more horsepower, 168 lb.-ft. more torque and only a 150-lb. weight penalty. He puts the power to good use and stretches the legs of his V to 149.18 mph and runs a 2:45.55. Our Vbox GPS data shows that both drivers and cars are performing nearly identical laps. With the water patch drying and the sun warming the track surface, both drivers start running cool-down laps between fast laps. It's the last session and it's too close to call yet. Auberlen runs two hard laps and comes in first with a smile. His timing beacon says he did a 2:44.70 and the GPS data agrees. Heinricy is still out and Kevin Smith of Cadillac's communications is perspiring. The V is flagged in, Smith's stopwatch says it's close. The V ran three fast laps, each one faster than the previous by a tenth of a second. The final one is a 2:44.23, just under a half-second faster than the BMW. Could the M5 go quicker? Maybe. But for now we'll have to let the track get back to its construction.

Cadillac won by the skin of its teeth and all the participants walked away happy. Cadillac has made a CTS-V that can best the BMW M5 for likely the cost difference of a Chevy Malibu, while BMW knows its 3-year-old M5 is still close competition for the newest CTS-V. I'm sure BMW will be glad to raise the bar again with the next M5, but for now the V is king.

Kidhummer
08-25-08, 05:55 PM
WTF?? The V hardly won: http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=31&article_id=6963&page_number=2

LV_V
08-25-08, 06:02 PM
I wonder why Heinricy switched to the 6-speed manual gearbox for this challenge, after running the 'Ring with the slushbox??? You would think that with BMW bringing their SMG 7-speed that Cadillac would follow suit and run the automatic to have a more favorable match up.

There is always something with these matchups.......

big_tugg
08-25-08, 06:17 PM
gotta give props to the BMW...that's a close race...dayum!

Seattle CTS-V
08-25-08, 06:32 PM
I think these cars are so closely matched that it's always going to come down to driver and tires. There is a point where adding more power only helps on tracks with big long straights (like the N'Ring). Two heavy sedans going around corners with limited straights to take advantage of huge power will always be clocking roughly the same times.

ejguillot
08-25-08, 06:51 PM
I wonder why Heinricy switched to the 6-speed manual gearbox for this challenge, after running the 'Ring with the slushbox??? You would think that with BMW bringing their SMG 7-speed that Cadillac would follow suit and run the automatic to have a more favorable match up.

There is always something with these matchups.......

Perhaps the fact that the slushbox version is 100 lbs heavier had something to do with it. On a tight track, you would want to minimize the weight disadvantage.

dqw1
08-25-08, 06:52 PM
I'm wondering what kind of times John could run with auto trans in the same race. What impresses me is that he outran the M5 with the manual.

CIWS
08-25-08, 07:08 PM
Bah - Guess I'll wait for the SS Camaro to come out now.



















;)

LV_V
08-25-08, 08:10 PM
Perhaps the fact that the slushbox version is 100 lbs heavier had something to do with it. On a tight track, you would want to minimize the weight disadvantage.
My point being why didn't they both bring manuals or both bring autos? An odd selection in a hyped match up if you ask me.

MacOSR
08-25-08, 08:33 PM
My point being why didn't they both bring manuals or both bring autos? An odd selection in a hyped match up if you ask me.

The SMG is not an auto, it is a hydraulically shifted manual tranny. I would imagine that the manual in the CTS-V is the better tranny option for performance.

I am a little disappointed that the CTS-V didn't do better with so much more power on tap.

Seattle CTS-V
08-25-08, 08:52 PM
^^ Could also be better gear ratios for that particular track?? The 7-spds of the SMG offer quite a gearing advantage (which is also why the tiny 380ish lb ft of torque in that V10 still function well).

Seattle CTS-V
08-25-08, 08:56 PM
The SMG is not an auto, it is a hydraulically shifted manual tranny. I would imagine that the manual in the CTS-V is the better tranny option for performance.

I am a little disappointed that the CTS-V didn't do better with so much more power on tap.

Like I mentioned, the extra power can only be put down in a straight line...which this track might not have had a lot of. You're basically dealing with the same amount of power being applied in the corners since both where about the same size/brand shoes (tires). A long straight away would have given the CTS-V multiple car lengths advantage.

JEM
08-25-08, 09:27 PM
The SMG is not an auto, it is a hydraulically shifted manual tranny. I would imagine that the manual in the CTS-V is the better tranny option for performance.

I am a little disappointed that the CTS-V didn't do better with so much more power on tap.

Heinricy's sub-8-minute Nordschleife lap was set with the slushbox, GM says it's the faster combo. With enough torque an hydraulically-coupled slushbox is no disadvantage.

The BMW SMG has an automatic mode if you've got strong neck muscles.

The 6-speed three-pedal E60 M5 is a joke, it exists only for that segment of the US buyer base who thinks a real BMW has to have three pedals. Hopefully the next M5 has a more flexible engine and the dual-clutch gearbox works better than the SMG.

MacOSR
08-25-08, 10:22 PM
Heinricy's sub-8-minute Nordschleife lap was set with the slushbox, GM says it's the faster combo. With enough torque an hydraulically-coupled slushbox is no disadvantage.

The BMW SMG has an automatic mode if you've got strong neck muscles.

The 6-speed three-pedal E60 M5 is a joke, it exists only for that segment of the US buyer base who thinks a real BMW has to have three pedals. Hopefully the next M5 has a more flexible engine and the dual-clutch gearbox works better than the SMG.

M5 E60 6sp -- Very true.

The SMG II in manual mode does have a faster shifting mode (s7). Also, there is a time around the ring for the M5 of 7:52 — 157.119 km/h. Not much is out there about this time but it appears to be a BMW time, I'm guessing a test driver but I don't really know.

concorso
08-25-08, 10:42 PM
^^^^ I've read that time on m5board previously, as well. But Ive never seen it substantiated....

MacOSR
08-25-08, 10:44 PM
^^^^ I've read that time on m5board previously, as well. But Ive never seen it substantiated....

Me neither... here is where it is from: http://www.caymanclub.net/cayman-chat/5967-nurenburgring-lap-times.html

BigFred
08-25-08, 11:51 PM
Have to hand it to the M5, I didn't expect it to come so close. No 0-60 or 1/4 mile times, and no pricing. Still a lot of info to look forward to.