: 2008 3.6DI Defective Cylinder Head



firststs
08-12-08, 09:07 PM
Driving to work Friday my 2008 STS with about 8,100 miles displayed a Check Engine Light. The car was running fine but I called OnStar, they ran a remote diagnostic and told me it was the Engine Control Module and that I should take it to the dealer that day.

The dealer left me a message later that day saying they had to do more testing but they thought it was probably a cylinder head, which they would have to replace. They left another message Tuesday saying it was definitely the cylinder head and they would replace it as soon as they got in a gasket set, which will take another day or two because it is on backorder. Since I didn't talk to the advisor I don't yet know specifically what is wrong with the head.

Anybody else had to have a head replaced? I've never had a GM car with a defective cylinder head.

At least they gave me a new CTS to drive.

justgreat
08-15-08, 09:58 AM
yeah, that's a ford problem, historically. will they replace the entire head or will they sevice the original? also, what is exactly wrong with the head? generally, due to overheating, heads warp and/or crack. in some cases of warpage, the head can be serviced and reused...if it's cracked...it's cracked.


jackg
06 sts6

firststs
08-15-08, 08:48 PM
yeah, that's a ford problem, historically. will they replace the entire head or will they sevice the original?

The advisor left me a message saying they will have to replace the head, but they can't do it until they get a gasket set (it's backordered).

I haven't called him back yet to find out exactly what is wrong with the head or what caused it. I know the car never overheated, there was no evidence of water in the oil (I'd checked it two days prior), and it was running fine even while I had the check engine light.

Meanwhile, they've had the car for 7 days and counting and I'm just putting miles on their loaner CTS.

justgreat
08-16-08, 06:08 PM
it sounds like you're familiar with the vagaries of blown head gaskets. another thing to look for would be to keep an eagle eye on the overflow tank of the coolant system (it's not called an overflow tank any more, but close enough). you check the level in the morning before using the car and note the level, going so far as to mark the container with a marker and always check in the am before using the vehicle. this should be done every month, just like checking the oil level. any loss of coolant that doesn't produce a puddle under the car is real cause for concern...it's going somewhere...

the next time you talk to the sm, find out if it's a complete head, with the complete valve assembly and cams...or if not, what will they be reusing. based on other problem posts, gm and the sm will be reluctant to go into details as to what exactly the problem was..but i would press them for as much info as possible...knowledge is power and can be useful down the road.


jackg
06 sts6

firststs
08-16-08, 07:05 PM
jackg,

Thanks for the tip about the coolant level. The only other GM car (or any car, for that matter) I've owned that had a cylinder head problem was an '84 Buick 4-cylinder. A radiator hose popped, allowing the engine to overheat before I could pull off the freeway. Everything seemed OK until about a month later when it started putting out a little bit of white smoke, but only when it was started up. Of course it was coolant leaking into the combustion chamber. It got worse over the next several weeks and the dealer diagnosis was a cracked aluminum head, which had to be replaced. $$$

I'm still wondering if anyone else with a V-6 Direct Injection has had a head problem. I couldn't find anything searching the CTS and STS boards, nor was there anything in the NHTSA complaint or TSB databases. I suppose this could just be a rare casting defect. Funny that it took 8,000 miles to show up.

So now it's going to be Monday at the earliest; 10 days and counting. At least I'm getting an extended test drive on the CTS loaner; I like the way it looks on the outside but I still much prefer my STS.

Dan

justgreat
08-17-08, 09:06 AM
i must say that surfing the various boards, warped or cracked cylinder heads is not something that is common nowadays, and that's a good thing, not for you, unfortunately.

one other area that has caused problems with heads is the head bolts threading into aluminum blocks. sometimes the threads of the bolts don't take a bite in the block and can back out. the last time i saw this thread on a board, it was pointed out that head bolts are no longer reused; once the bolt has been stretched by torquing it to spec, the bolt cannot be reused...i assume that is still the case...another point to bring up with the sm.

once you do get the car back, it is imperative that you follow the procedure i mentioned regarding the overflow bottle, i would watch it almost daily...at least a couple of times a week for the first month or so; you'll know pretty quick if there's a problem. there may some "settling in" for the level at the very beginning after the repair, but after that there shouldn't be any change in the level. i speak from experience on this, although it was a 93 ford explorer with the 4.0 v6...they never found where the coolant was going...no puddles, no clouds of white smoke out the exhaust, good pressure numbers in the coolant system, but it was going thru coolant at a steady clip...i got rid of it while it was still worth something.

jackg
06 sts6

dkozloski
08-17-08, 03:46 PM
The reuse reasoning on the headbolts is not so much stretch as the fact that the bolts come new with some pretty exotic coatings that both lubricate and lock and need to be renewed.

firststs
08-19-08, 10:38 PM
I got my STS back today and it turns out they did NOT have to replace the cylinder head.

First of all, the invoice said the ECM code was P0024, which I looked up as "Camshaft Position - Timing Over-Advanced". The service advisor told me some of the camshafts for the DI engine, manufactured by a 3rd party, have too much endplay and movement of the camshaft could result in timing errors, and at worst, valve damage.

They thought they would have to replace the head and they had already removed it, but he said they got a new TSB last Thursday, #08-06-01-011A, that addressed the problem. The new TSB ordered installation of shims to eliminate the endplay.

After reinstalling the head with new bolts and gasket kit they were able to fix the problem with the shim kit. The invoice says they fixed both left-bank camshafts; I don't know if that means the problem is with the intake or the exhaust camshafts.

At least I'm glad there wasn't an actual defect in the cylinder head or no damage done to it.

After driving the new CTS for 11 days it was great to get back in the STS! I like the way the CTS looks on the outside but to me it doesn't compare to the ride or luxury of the STS.

dkozloski
08-20-08, 12:54 AM
I got my STS back today and it turns out they did NOT have to replace the cylinder head.

First of all, the invoice said the ECM code was P0024, which I looked up as "Camshaft Position - Timing Over-Advanced". The service advisor told me some of the camshafts for the DI engine, manufactured by a 3rd party, have too much endplay and movement of the camshaft could result in timing errors, and at worst, valve damage.

They thought they would have to replace the head and they had already removed it, but he said they got a new TSB last Thursday, #08-06-01-011A, that addressed the problem. The new TSB ordered installation of shims to eliminate the endplay.

After reinstalling the head with new bolts and gasket kit they were able to fix the problem with the shim kit. The invoice says they fixed both left-bank camshafts; I don't know if that means the problem is with the intake or the exhaust camshafts.

At least I'm glad there wasn't an actual defect in the cylinder head or no damage done to it.

After driving the new CTS for 11 days it was great to get back in the STS! I like the way the CTS looks on the outside but to me it doesn't compare to the ride or luxury of the STS.
There is one exhaust and one intake camshaft in each bank of cylinders. They must have shimmed the both in one side.

firststs
08-20-08, 06:53 AM
There is one exhaust and one intake camshaft in each bank of cylinders. They must have shimmed the both in one side.

I found a GM document that lists the actual description of the ECM codes for the 3.6 DI and it shows that the P0024 fault code is from the camshaft control circuit, specifically a difference greater than 1.5 degrees between the actual and desired camshaft angle for the bank 2 exhaust cam (remember, the engine has variable valve timing).

The measurement is taken every 0.01 seconds and the check engine light is illuminated if there are two driving cycles each where the timing error exceeds 4 seconds continuous of 50 seconds cumulative.

justgreat
08-20-08, 08:48 AM
that's good news, for a whole host of reasons, that they didn't need to replace the head. since the head was off the block, you will definitely want to keep an eagle eye on the coolant level right from the time you get it back...and for the first week or so, try and check it every morning before you drive off. mark the side of the bottle with a black magic marker for the level. i know it's a pain in the ass, but you want to know right away if there is a problem with the sealing of the head to the block. there probably isn't going to be any loss of coolant, but you want to know this for sure.


glad you got it back in one piece...happy motoring.


jackg
06 sts6

ewill3rd
08-20-08, 09:59 AM
At least we got to waste some time jumping to rediculous conclusions about this issue before we even knew what was wrong with it.

Seems like a pretty simple issue to me, cars break.
I keep forgetting that bankers, insurance agents, IT guys, retail sales clerks, and rocket scientists never make mistakes.
Last I checked these things were engineered and designed by humans.
Seems like those same people so many folks like to bash on this forum fixed the problem with barely an interruption to your life except for a trip to the dealer and a few phone calls.... how horrible.
:lol:

Sorry for the sarcasm. ;)

firststs
08-20-08, 09:14 PM
At least we got to waste some time jumping to rediculous conclusions about this issue before we even knew what was wrong with it.

Seems like a pretty simple issue to me, cars break.
I keep forgetting that bankers, insurance agents, IT guys, retail sales clerks, and rocket scientists never make mistakes.
Last I checked these things were engineered and designed by humans.
Seems like those same people so many folks like to bash on this forum fixed the problem with barely an interruption to your life except for a trip to the dealer and a few phone calls.... how horrible.
:lol:

Sorry for the sarcasm. ;)

Yes, but I wonder how many other 2008's out there have incorrectly machined camshafts that are going to have the same problem. GM will probably not want to issue a recall, but rather wait until a customer gets the check engine light. And, is adding shims a good long-term fix rather than actually replacing the defective part? Was there any premature wear already done since the service advisor admitted that if not fixed there would eventually be engine damage?

As I was paying for the oil change the service advisor told me he had just dealt with a customer that had bought a used STS with 28,000 miles from their lot and the next day got the check engine light. Same problem.

What's interesting is that although the service advisor told me they ended up not having to replace the head, only reinstall the original one, the parts list includes not one but two heads (a head, part # 12626339, and a head assembly, part # 12626911). Gmpartsdirect shows the list price of the head as $435.00, and the head assembly as $712.38. WTF?

Dan

ewill3rd
08-21-08, 09:23 AM
And......?
If those issues come up they'll be dealt with, recall or not.

You just made my point.... again.

I am not sure what kind of business in, but are you more or less apt to help your clients that talk trash about your services to everyone they meet, even though you resolve their problems in a timely fashion?

I apologize if I am coming off too strongly. I respect your right to complain, I just don't agree with your method or your justification.

firststs
08-21-08, 10:13 PM
And......?
If those issues come up they'll be dealt with, recall or not.

You just made my point.... again.

I am not sure what kind of business in, but are you more or less apt to help your clients that talk trash about your services to everyone they meet, even though you resolve their problems in a timely fashion?

I apologize if I am coming off too strongly. I respect your right to complain, I just don't agree with your method or your justification.

What, are you accusing me of "talking trash", or did you mean your clients talk trash about your services? I didn't say one bad thing about the dealership or my service advisor.

I was merely wondering if shimming the camshaft rather than replacing it was a good long-term fix since the service advisor told me that the excess endplay causes wear on the camshaft which eventually results in valve or piston damage. I would hope that GM doesn't have your attitude that "If those issues come up they'll be dealt with...".

I'm glad I didn't have to talk to someone like YOU at my dealership! They were actually pleasent to deal with. Maybe that's why you perceive you are having difficulties with your customers. You do seem like you have a chip on your shoulder.

ewill3rd
08-22-08, 08:31 AM
I am sorry I misunderstood, it seemed to me that you were feeling around to see how many people had this issue so you could complain about how GM sucks. A theme that plays out over and over again on this forum. As a tech who really tries to make his customers happy I find myself stuck in the middle between a corporation that sometimes makes mistakes and unforgiving owners who don't ever appear to. If I somehow labeled you and stuck you into the mold of those who have gone before, I apologize.

Again, I might be coming off badly because of a personal bias.
I think the ending tone of your discussion was certainly fine, I just felt reading the early posts that your assumptions were pretty negative and in the end the issue turned out to be fairly minor. Maybe it was the naysayers posting around you that colored what you were saying in my eyes.

Please accept my sincere apologies for misinterpreting your intentions, I have to say I do get weary from hearing complaint after complaint and sometimes I let it get to me.
Even though I chose poor words, what I meant to say was that if your car breaks it sounds like you have a dealer that is willing to help you out and fix the car right. Cars break, and if they do so under warranty they'll be fixed, that is all I really meant.

I think if you put yourself in my shoes and re-read the first several posts you'll see why I got so cranky.
Again, I offer my sincere apologies for going a bit overboard there.

firststs
08-22-08, 09:01 PM
I am sorry I misunderstood, it seemed to me that you were feeling around to see how many people had this issue so you could complain about how GM sucks. A theme that plays out over and over again on this forum. As a tech who really tries to make his customers happy I find myself stuck in the middle between a corporation that sometimes makes mistakes and unforgiving owners who don't ever appear to. If I somehow labeled you and stuck you into the mold of those who have gone before, I apologize.

Again, I might be coming off badly because of a personal bias.
I think the ending tone of your discussion was certainly fine, I just felt reading the early posts that your assumptions were pretty negative and in the end the issue turned out to be fairly minor. Maybe it was the naysayers posting around you that colored what you were saying in my eyes.

Please accept my sincere apologies for misinterpreting your intentions, I have to say I do get weary from hearing complaint after complaint and sometimes I let it get to me.
Even though I chose poor words, what I meant to say was that if your car breaks it sounds like you have a dealer that is willing to help you out and fix the car right. Cars break, and if they do so under warranty they'll be fixed, that is all I really meant.

I think if you put yourself in my shoes and re-read the first several posts you'll see why I got so cranky.
Again, I offer my sincere apologies for going a bit overboard there.

Apology accepted. Yes, I was trying to find out who else had the same issue, but it wasn't to bash GM. I just wanted to know more details about this specific problem. I am an engineer and am never satisfied with just being told "it broke, we fixed it." The service manager told me they had fixed quite a few Caddys with the same problem but no one on this forum seems to have had it happen to them.

The STS is the 12th GM car I've owned (2 Chevys, 2 Buicks, 1 Oldsmobile, 6 Pontiacs, and now my first Cadillac) and I really wouldn't want to have to own another brand. I have to admit I have test driven many other brands but always end up choosing the GM car. And even when my cars have gone out of warranty I would never consider trusting anyone to work on the car except the dealer (not even for oil changes).

Superjim
08-22-08, 09:30 PM
I have to say I do get weary from hearing complaint after complaint and sometimes I let it get to me.

what I meant to say was that if your car breaks it sounds like you have a dealer that is willing to help you out and fix the car right.

Cars break, and if they do so under warranty they'll be fixed, that is all I really meant.



ewill3rd,

On a somewhat lighter note...
I know you all were discussing STS and not DTS... BUT...

I have put over 80,000 on my two 2006 DTS's with nothing but a few minor glitches which were promptly and properly fixed by my dealer. :cloud9:
Frank Kent Cadillac, Ft. Worth TX.

I have almost 50,000 on my 2006 Chevy van.
It has NEVER been in the shop AT ALL.

I have driven (mostly) GM products for almost 50 years.
Nothing better on the road.. in my opinion.

Texas Jim

ewill3rd
08-22-08, 09:48 PM
Always good to hear happy stories :D

Too bad our society rewards us for complaining all the time.

Thanks for elaborating firststs, if you'd like I might be able to get you a copy of the TSB that they are referring to.
Sorry again for the earlier conclusion, thanks for your understanding.

firststs
08-23-08, 12:34 AM
Always good to hear happy stories :D

Too bad our society rewards us for complaining all the time.

Thanks for elaborating firststs, if you'd like I might be able to get you a copy of the TSB that they are referring to.
Sorry again for the earlier conclusion, thanks for your understanding.

ewill3rd,

That would be great if you happen to come across that TSB; I'm sure others on this forum would also be interested in what it says.

Dan

ewill3rd
08-23-08, 08:13 AM
Send me an email to my forum name at lindsaycadillac.com and I'll reply with a copy of the TSB... but you don't know where it came from ;)
It has good information on the inspection and repair that an ME might find enjoyable.
(my wife is a CE)

justgreat
08-27-08, 04:08 PM
it's important to remember that if it weren't for the internet and these kinds of forums we would not be discussing these issues at all, unless we all frequented the same coffee shop....my point is, the internet and forums like this have empowered the consumer like never before...and that's the point: before you were on your own when the shit hit the fan with your car....now it's possible to find out how many others have had the same problem...case in point being firststs hearing about the same problem while in the shop....the gate swings both ways....good and bad....


jackg
06 sts6

justgreat
08-27-08, 04:19 PM
one other point regarding the cam problem; it it weren't for alll the sensors and computers and diagnostic programs running full time while we're watching the action on the sidewalk, you wouldn't know something was amiss until it was WAY too late...that was my frame of reference when it came to the problem before we found out what it was; it's good to see a major mechanical malfunction be averted by the sensors and computers.


jackg
06 sts6

justgreat
08-27-08, 04:26 PM
the shxx keeps popping into my head: what about having to go back after 500 miles and have the head bolts retorqued? do they still call for that in the service manual when the head has been r and r'd?


jackg
06 sts6

dkozloski
08-27-08, 07:46 PM
the shxx keeps popping into my head: what about having to go back after 500 miles and have the head bolts retorqued? do they still call for that in the service manual when the head has been r and r'd?


jackg
06 sts6
That stuff went away with the flathead Ford V8.

justgreat
08-28-08, 11:05 AM
well, maybe not that far back...my 76 alfa romeo with the all aluminum block and head had to be retorqued after 500 miles...but we are talking thirty years ago....


jackg
06 sts6

pjbizjak
08-28-08, 11:30 AM
Subject: Head bolts.........Not only should the be replaced with new ones, but in some cases when they are removed the threads in the engine block get messed up and that means 'block replacement'.

ewill3rd
08-29-08, 10:56 PM
The N* is the only one I know of with thread pulling issues.
This is about the 3.6 DI VVT engine, never heard of this happening on a V6 yet.

firststs
08-30-08, 12:25 AM
Send me an email to my forum name at lindsaycadillac.com and I'll reply with a copy of the TSB... but you don't know where it came from ;)
It has good information on the inspection and repair that an ME might find enjoyable.
(my wife is a CE)

ewill3rd,

I sent you an email last week to lindsaycadillac.com about the TSB, did you receive it? It's possible I misspelled the name or domain, but it didn't bounce back.

Dan

ewill3rd
08-30-08, 11:52 AM
Hmm, I didn't see one. Let me look again....

Yep, sure enough... there it is!
Sorry for the delay... you've got mail!

firststs
08-30-08, 11:18 PM
Hmm, I didn't see one. Let me look again....

Yep, sure enough... there it is!
Sorry for the delay... you've got mail!

Got it. Thanks!!

MDE3
08-31-08, 10:34 AM
I am only here seeking and to an extent sharing information. I am posting what I know of an event that took place with a 2007 STS AWD..where the head apparently underwent some sort of catastrophic failure...I cannot be more specific because the car is still at the dealers ...17 days later, and all they told her was that one of the heads failed....according to her anyway.

I am on this forum because of an internet search for similar events(which lead me here), as she is a friend and asked me to help (I have a substantial mechanical background from building weekend warrior rallye cars, and various other money pits, as well as an extensive service background in heavy equipment repairs for manufacturers...as well as product management). She has always owned and driven Cadillac products for the past 35 years, all purchased from the same dealer. She has always been satisfied with the product, at least until now.

Her problem occurred on route 78 in NJ just after peak traffic hours, but while the traffic was still substantial.. She was cruising along at between 70 - 80 mph in three lane traffic....ie the speed of the traffic, and in the middle lane, when the car made a loud noise...with no engine light warning, and proceeded to effectively die in the middle of this traffic..The car has 24,000 miles and was/is used as a daily commutor. Not much mileage for a major engine failure. She was fortunate that she managed to avoid an accident, and get the car off the road without incident.

This person has always had all her service done at the dealer where the car was purchased, and is fairly anal about obeying the rules(with the notable exception of speed limits..however that really does not distinguish her much on route I78 in NJ)...although she has no, nor does she want to be burdened with any mechanical knowledge of vehicles.

My concern, at this point not validated quite yet, is that she will have a relatively low mileage car with block inserts (heli-coils) to effect the repairs....this SHOULD NEVER be the case with a car of this stature and expense...(when BMW's have had similar problems..they always replaced the complete engine) I have asked her to insist an a detailed service report on what and how the repairs were done. While heli-coil repairs may be a cost effective solution to an owner of a high mileage, well past warranty automobile, where an aluminum block has had threads pulled, it should never be an acceptable repair of a low mileage almost new vehicle (on the assumption that this is what has been done)

I am curious just how commonly this type of problem may be occurring in the STS V6...(am familiar a bit with the N* problems just from doing research for this vehicle), not simply because of inconvenience, but also the obvious safety concerns such a failure creates, and the lack of confidence which is imparted to the owner/driver of the vehicle.

Note this occurred in a 2007 vehicle, not necessarily one that was included in the incorrectly machined cam vehicles (as mentioned in here) from 2008.

ewill3rd
08-31-08, 10:56 AM
I can tell you 3 things right off the bat.

1. This is not a "common" problem on the V6
2. The V6 does not require thread inserts on a repair of this type, that is a N* issue and has absolutely nothing to do with the 3.6 VVT engine.
3. Heli-coils are not used, they use something called "time-serts". They are a single piece threaded insert that is hardened, they are a good and reliable repair, whether the car is under factory warranty or not. Your suppositions seem to be based on rumor an inuendo rather than fact. It doesn't matter if the car has 100 miles or 100,000 miles there is nothing wrong with a time-sert repair... which again... will not be required on this engine.
4. Depending on the failure, again which we have not even identified yet, they may replace the complete engine or just pieces. It is up to GM and the dealer based on the extent of the "damage" that we don't even know exists yet.

I understand that all of us dealer techs are "incompetent crooks", but try to have a little faith my friend.

firststs
09-03-08, 08:40 PM
one other point regarding the cam problem; it it weren't for alll the sensors and computers and diagnostic programs running full time while we're watching the action on the sidewalk, you wouldn't know something was amiss until it was WAY too late...that was my frame of reference when it came to the problem before we found out what it was; it's good to see a major mechanical malfunction be averted by the sensors and computers.

That is a very good point! The main reason for implementing automotive control systems was to increase gas mileage and reduce emissions, but to do that the systems also have to be able to detect problems that would increase emissions. The added benefit to automakers and drivers has been that many of the problems that would increase emissions might also have resulted in catastropic failures had they not been identified. I never really thought about it that way until you mentioned it.

Since today's engines cannot operate without these controllers, I wonder how these cars will be running in 20 or 25 years when parts are no longer available? I guess that's a dumb question since by then there probably won't be any gasoline left to put in them!

MDE3
09-04-08, 03:43 AM
Allow me to update you all on the little saga of my friend's 2007 STS with the 3.6 V6. I have not responded to the "educational" remarks from "ewill3rd" until I had recieved more specific information from her concerning this whole affair.

Today, exactly three weeks from the date of the first incident, she finally received her car back. She was told it was "repaired to better than new condition" by the service department as she picked it up. (sound vaguely familiar?)

In her words, about thirty miles later it appears that the head gasket blew..again at highway speeds in traffic... the motor shutting off to the clamour of alarm bells (sensors at work?). She barely made it off the highway without an accident this time, with cars swerving and screaching brakes all around her. (and why would I assume it might be the head gasket?...just subtle things, like clouds of steam from the exhaust as well as under the hood, totally irregular detonation for the few seconds it continued to run before the sensors shut it down, and a large puddle of anti-freeze directly under the engine once the car was stopped)

I do not know the precise repairs were that were made to her car from the original failure, as she was not given the service record when she picked it up earlier today. She had been told verbally that the head had failed and was to be replaced. She had asked for a complete replacement engine at the time of the first failure, but was told that this was not an option. No concern apparently for the future resale value of this vehicle when someone does a service background check.

Due to the fact that a major failure had happened twice, and both times in traffic at highway speeds she lost it when she came back to the dealer, driven by her daughter. She was understandably hysterical and in tears....For this she was totally berated by the sales manager on the floor who even threatened to call the police.... a youngish grandson of the owner who apparently felt that she was just too much of an imposition to deal with. This sales manager also refused to give her the service history of the car when she demanded it, claiming that this was not his job..he was in sales.

This was his reaction to a 62 year old woman who had just been seriously traumatized by extremely unsafe highway incidents as a direct result of unpredictable and effectivley unnanounced mechanical failures....

This lady has been a thirty year customer of this particular dealer and purchased only Cadiallacs from them..and purchased all her cars from them during this time frame.

I would say this whole saga merits some serious attention, and will probably get it one way or another.

ewill3rd
09-04-08, 08:13 AM
Well, I'd like to say first of all that I am definitely sorry to hear about this poor woman's experience.
I'd say she has reason to be concerned.

If there is stuff spraying all over the engine compartment and dripping on the ground I can tell you it isn't a head gasket, they don't fail that way. It sounds to me like a tech wasn't thorough enough and either made a mistake during reassembly of the cylinder head or overlooked something pretty important. The dealer should be working to make it right, not chastising your friend.

I sure wish your post had more facts and less supposition in it. By your own admission you don't know what happened the first time, and no one seems to know what happened the second time yet.
I wouldn't try to defend the dealer, and your friend certainly has a reason to be dissatisfied.
No one can be responsible for "where" it happened, it could have happened anywhere and people should always drive with caution and be prepared for whatever may come there way. She certainly shouldn't have to spend much time thinking that her car is going to fail at any second, especially since it is new.
GM has ways of dealing with situations like this, from paying car payments for time in service to buying the car back.

I certainly hope that this gets worked out and I hope your friend is okay.
Once this situation has been dealt with maybe she needs to find another dealer to service her car?
She obviously has problems with where she has been taking it.

justgreat
09-04-08, 03:49 PM
That is a very good point! The main reason for implementing automotive control systems was to increase gas mileage and reduce emissions, but to do that the systems also have to be able to detect problems that would increase emissions. The added benefit to automakers and drivers has been that many of the problems that would increase emissions might also have resulted in catastropic failures had they not been identified. I never really thought about it that way until you mentioned it.

Since today's engines cannot operate without these controllers, I wonder how these cars will be running in 20 or 25 years when parts are no longer available? I guess that's a dumb question since by then there probably won't be any gasoline left to put in them!

point taken....literally. honda has stopped manufacturing the coolant hoses for my 1986 vfr2 interceptor motorcycle and i'm at the crossroads of having to decide whether to keep it or unload it. i love the m/c and don't want to get rid of it, but i need to feel safe and secure on the thing; even the parts lady was surprised when she researched her catalogue. i geuss i expect too much, considering the bike is over 20 years old.


jackg
06 sts6

justgreat
09-04-08, 03:57 PM
that lady needs to contact the following: the owner of the dealership, the service manager, the cust service center and a good attorney....not necessarily in that order. screaming will NEVER get you anywhere...and this is from a screamer...even when you're justified...you always come out looking like a schmuck.

my heart goes out to that poor lady....definitely tell her to contact the 800 number cust service, if she hasn't already done this and start a case number. at this point though, she might want to have a buffer between her and the dealership.....

i wonder how many other 3.6's out there are having head/cam/shim problems?....


jackg
06 sts6