: DYI or NOT, Blown waterpump housing gasket



fristim
08-11-08, 08:30 PM
I own a 98 concours with 212000, I've noticed that the rear upper water pump housing gasket is leaking. I'm wondering how hard is this to change. I've done all the maintanence on the car since 2000. I'm just wondering if there are any wierd qurks with pulling off the water pump housing. Im assuming its called a water pump house because thats what I've always put the water into. Any help would be much appreciated!

Ranger
08-11-08, 09:32 PM
I think you are talking about the crossover manifold. It's a royal PITA. I'd try some sealant tabs first if it's not a real bad leak.

ewill3rd
08-11-08, 09:39 PM
Even for a seasoned DIYer it can be a challenge. It is simple mechanical work but there are a lot of tricky things you have to do along the way.
Of course we'll be here to support you, if you have the time, don't get rushed, and pay close attention to detail it certainly could be do-able, but be warned there are some pitfalls to be avoided.

fristim
08-11-08, 10:11 PM
Well I'm a seasoned DIYer. And I do have a lotta time as this is not my only sourse of transportation. Now my first question is do I have to remove the intake manifold to get the cross over out?

Ranger
08-11-08, 10:13 PM
What do you mean WE kimosabe? :D

ewill3rd
08-11-08, 10:16 PM
:lol:
Ranger you slay me....

'98 right? Yeah, I am pretty sure it does not, but I'll ask a guy at work who has done a lot more than I have to be sure.

fristim
08-11-08, 11:10 PM
Oh well LOL, its already off. Gave my much more room to work. the only thing left right now is the crossover itself. I can clearly see the 4 bolts for the rear part of the cross over, but I can only see 3 for the front Im wondering if this is correct!

Ranger
08-11-08, 11:21 PM
:lol:
Ranger you slay me....

'98 right? Yeah, I am pretty sure it does not, but I'll ask a guy at work who has done a lot more than I have to be sure.

:D
Actually I said that because I have never done one. Mine, fortunately was under warranty when it leaked, but I was given a loaner as it was not a wait job. I've talked to a few others who have done it and I hope I never get the experience.

ewill3rd
08-12-08, 01:54 PM
There are 4 on the front and 4 on the back. There are two down below the water pump cover area.

fristim
08-12-08, 10:16 PM
Thanks a bunch for the help. Any torque specs for the crossover bolts?

codewize
08-13-08, 01:25 AM
ewill; would you mind throwing me some examples of things to avoid? I'm about to have my local mechanic do this for me because the dealer wants $550 in labor.


Even for a seasoned DIYer it can be a challenge. It is simple mechanical work but there are a lot of tricky things you have to do along the way.
Of course we'll be here to support you, if you have the time, don't get rushed, and pay close attention to detail it certainly could be do-able, but be warned there are some pitfalls to be avoided.

ewill3rd
08-13-08, 07:21 AM
Code, is this on your '01?
It is a little different, and I'll confess that even though I know how to do it and have one a few I usually make my helpers do them so while I might give some good advice they would know more specifically the ins and outs.

I know you have to pull the main harness out a bit from between the "crossover" and the transmission, this requires removal of a ground wire on the rear cylinder head and disconnecting the ECT sensor. The issue there is the stud usually spins because whoever puts the thing together at the factory has a wrench that tightens the nut better than it does the stud. That makes the whole stud spin. You just have to be careful to get the nut loose without tearing the end off the ground wire. If you do it can be fixed but it is just a pain.
Different years have different tricks for the heater hose coming off the back of the crossover. If it has the green hose, ALWAYS replace it when you take the crossover off. When you get it apart, slide the hose onto the pipe all the way with bloth clamps on it, then install the crossover and slide the hose onto the other nipple and snug the clamps. Once the crossover is in place it is nearly impossible to get the green hose onto the pipe without tearing a bunch more stuff apart.
If it has a disconnect instead of the green hose ALWAYS replace the disconnect in the crossover for the heater pipe. As possible as it might be, I never re-use those disconnects, they end up leaking usually. Don't take the chance.

The bolts will hold the crossover seals in place, just start them all onto the bolts, (keep track of which bolts go where, there are 3 different length bolts) and once you have it into position start installing them into the threads.
Start all the bolts by hand, don't use any air tools to get the threads going, if you cross something, you just screwed up a cylinder head. Start all the bolts several turns before tightening any of them. Be sure they are all properly threaded before tightening any of them down. You will absolutely have to have one of these:
http://www.thetoolwarehouse.net/shop/KD-9913.html
You practically cannot remove the rear two bolts on the bottom without one.
Those are some of the tools I use the most actually, if you do stuff yourself, buy a set. Don't be cheap either.

Use a new water pump cover seal, for '00 to '03 production you might consider replacing the water pump cover.
There was a redesign to stop an intermittent leak, the new design cover has a small square boss sticking out the side, the originals don't.

Take the fuel rail off, it isn't worth trying to work around it.
Not much else comes to mind off the top of my head. The rest of it is just time and excercising your patience.

HTH

codewize
08-13-08, 12:33 PM
Wow, thats a lot of info. Thanks a lot :) Yes the 01 DTS

fristim
08-13-08, 01:27 PM
well indeed thanks so much for the info. I was just wondering how in the hell was I gonna get the front two bolts off. Im assuming that you just pull the wiring harness up from the rear of motor to get it out of the way correct? Again thanks so much!

fristim
08-13-08, 01:39 PM
One more thing, what do you mean by the "ECT SENSOR"

Ranger
08-13-08, 04:49 PM
ECT = Engine Coolant Temperature sensor.

ewill3rd
08-13-08, 09:07 PM
Actually the gear wrench is for the back ones, the front ones I use something like this....
http://www.thetoolwarehouse.net/shop/SK-43813.html
A little extention and wrench will get you in there, but as stated you have to move the engine harness over out of the way.
Ranger (as always) is spot on with the ECT, it is near the ground wire in the back and you need to disconnect it for some extra room to move the harness out of the way.

If you have the EGR pipe that goes in the back of the housing you have to be careful not to bend it, I have seen guys manhandle that thing and ruin it, it isn't easy to replace either.
You can usually leave the EGR in place, but if you want to take it off, have a new EGR gasket.

fristim
08-17-08, 12:14 AM
So I did the whole job. I can honestly say its not something I wanna do agian but Im glad that I did it. I popped my intake off which gave me tons more room. For a car with 212000 the injectors looked great and the intake valves were clean enough to eat off of! Put it all back together even reused the original intake manifold gaskets, not a single miss on start up. Now I do however had a strange issue now. Even though I refilled it with coolant I still have a check coolant message on the DIC, plus my cooling fans stay on low all the time now even when they're clearly not needed. My cooling fans came on about 10 minutes after I started the car for the first time after the repair. No trouble codes either! got me stumped!

ewill3rd
08-17-08, 10:54 AM
The float in the tank is stuck, if the coolant level is normal and the light is on, replace the tank.
It happens all the time.
Sometimes you can (carefully) rap on the tank with a rubber mallet and break it loose.
Just don't break the tank!

Ranger
08-17-08, 11:56 AM
Was the A/C on? Fans run all the time when the A/C is on.

fristim
08-17-08, 02:01 PM
No sir. Although I think I may have cured the problem. When I went to check the coolant level after a full heat up 201 degrees btw, i noticed that it was to the top of the coolant tank so I pushed some coolant out and now all is well. I assuming it didn't have a chance to purge out all the air seeing that it was too full. Hopefully all is well. Saved myself quite a bit of money on that deal!! Thanks everyone for your help!

ejguillot
08-18-08, 03:10 PM
I'm looking at doing my crossover gaskets soon. What were the part numbers for the crossover gaskets you bought? I'm having a hard time picking out the right gaskets from either rockauto or gmpartsdirect.

tateos
08-18-08, 05:25 PM
Call Jim at Rock Auto 866-762-5288 X206 - he will help you. Tell him Richard Moore sent you and you will get some cred

ejguillot
08-19-08, 02:30 PM
I called Jim, but he wasn't sure what gaskets (or how many) I would need. I looked at the Seville parts list PDF off the sticky, but it didn't list the gaskets. I'll have to study my FSM tonight and see exactly how many gaskets are on the crossover, and dig through the forums.

codewize
08-19-08, 03:18 PM
You should get the gaskets in a kit. There will be 2 ovalish and 2 rectanglish along with the water pump seal. Maybe a couple other seals as well but the cross over, as far as I know is 4 gaskets.

Is it really that difficult to get a part number for that? Call a dealer, give them the VIN and ask them for the part number

ejguillot
08-19-08, 06:07 PM
Well, I got the order placed with Rock Auto. Looks like this weekend will be a fun one.

Got all the gaskets, a new thermostat, and new radiator hoses (mine are original, and I would prefer to replace them before they fail. 9 years and 120K miles is a lot of heat!

fristim
08-20-08, 08:32 AM
Not to sure on the seville set up, but I did notice that if I also unplugged the variable steering, which I got to under the car, I was able to pull the whole harness up and out the way. That makes the front lower bolts on the crossover 300% easier to get to! Be sure to replace all the small connecting hoses also. I used 3/8 heater hose with screw clamps.

ejguillot
08-23-08, 05:27 PM
I'm typing this as I'm at the halfway point in swapping the crossover gaskets. Turns out mine were way overdue, they started falling apart as soon as I unstuck them from the crossover.

And my thermostat diagnosis was correct: my old one somehow got wedged open.

I'll take a short break then get on putting everything back together. I am not looking forward to that. :bonkers:

ewill3rd
08-23-08, 06:24 PM
Back together is easy.

I had to do an '07 DTS yesterday, the water pump was leaking.
For some reason which I will never understand, GM made it where you MUST remove the crossover to replace the water pump on the '06 and up DTS!!! :cry:

Aaaaanyway. This customer was traveling, heading back to NYC and had to be at JFK by this morning.
I had to remove the crossover, replace the water pump and crossover seals and I had 2 hours to do it.
It took 3 of us working as fast as we could but we got it done in 2 hours.
I left work 1/2 an hour after we closed as soon as I knew she was back on the road.
The new ones are a bit easier to remove though. A few small changes here and there helped.
I'll never know why they did this, it sure makes me mad.

fristim
08-24-08, 03:29 PM
Note to self: Dont buy an 06 and up dts! Hellava deal!

ejguillot
08-25-08, 06:33 PM
Looks like my repair was successful so far. I'll have to see and make sure that the coolant level stays steady.

And my thermostat somehow jammed open, with it fixed my gas mileage is back to normal.

rollman
08-25-08, 08:23 PM
I think you are talking about the crossover manifold. It's a royal PITA. I'd try some sealant tabs first if it's not a real bad leak.


Ranger what are these sealant tabs your referring to ?
TIA

ewill3rd
08-25-08, 09:38 PM
I used to call them "cadillac pills".
GM makes them and you can get them in packs of 6, at least that is how I remember them.
You crush them and add them to the cooling system. They are really good at controlling small leaks.

Ranger
08-25-08, 10:33 PM
Ranger what are these sealant tabs your referring to ?
TIA
Do a search for sealant tabs or cooling system supplement.

Jeremy95dc
11-08-08, 10:16 PM
I'm doing the water pump housing gaskets for my 1995 concours now and it took me 6 hours straight labor to get everything out of the way and get it off and back on with the new gaskets, that does not include all the other stuff I removed that I now have to put back on. I'm guessing 3 more hours. I agree it is a royal PITA and the swivel ratchet wrench is the only way to get the rear 2 screws out. The wire harness doesnt help - they should have put a little more slack in it. Had to remove about 20 parts/hoses to get to it. Never want to do it again. Noticed the original gaskets were orange (silicone?) and the new ones are blue (wondering if the material changed??).

Submariner409
11-08-08, 10:38 PM
Coolant crossover gasket replacement is a bitch. Everyone admits that. The new gaskets are an improved design.

Take your time, refill the system, and make sure the lines and hoses are bled of air. Initially fill with 50/50 A/F mix to 2/3 of the way up the coolant surge tank, no more. Run the engine with the cap off and determine if the purge line (small hose near the top of the tank, not the overflow hose, if any) is spitting bubbles and fluid. BEFORE the engine reaches "fans, ON", at 224 degrees, shut down and let it cool. Fill the tank to halfway, COOL, install the cap, and go for a 10 minute drive. Come home and shut down, open the hood and let the engine cool again. Check the level COLD. Halfway up in the tank ? Good. If not, add to halfway ONLY. Replace the cap. Enjoy. (Everything in the engine/cooling system expands as it heats up. You need the airspace in the surge tank to absorb the expansion and contracton of the coolant.)
BTW, if your car had green coolant, stick with it and change it every 2 years. Use a brand which specifically states "low silicate formula" or "no silicates".

97EldoCoupe
11-09-08, 01:34 AM
That stud that has the ground wires can be a pain. It holds the exhaust crossover pipe in places as well as providing a ground terminal. I use a ground down 13mm wrench to hold the stud while I loosen the nut. I can't find a wrench thin enough to hold the stud, so grinding one down was my only other option. Has worked every time so far. d_mn! they had to use a lock-nut!!!:banghead:

Oh well, a good ground is worth it....

codewize
11-09-08, 10:46 AM
They're called Coolant Supplement Tablets.
Ranger what are these sealant tabs your referring to ?
TIA

gmmechanic
10-04-10, 06:08 PM
So I did the whole job. I can honestly say its not something I wanna do agian but Im glad that I did it. I popped my intake off which gave me tons more room. For a car with 212000 the injectors looked great and the intake valves were clean enough to eat off of! Put it all back together even reused the original intake manifold gaskets, not a single miss on start up. Now I do however had a strange issue now. Even though I refilled it with coolant I still have a check coolant message on the DIC, plus my cooling fans stay on low all the time now even when they're clearly not needed. My cooling fans came on about 10 minutes after I started the car for the first time after the repair. No trouble codes either! got me stumped!

If I can I would like to give some advice and knowledge here on this subject about the fans. There is a sensor there in the overflow bottle when it goes bad or you forgot to hook it back up. The fans stay on low all the time. If you hook it back up the message will go away

Submariner409
10-04-10, 07:40 PM
If I can I would like to give some advice and knowledge here on this subject about the fans. There is a sensor there in the overflow bottle when it goes bad or you forgot to hook it back up. The fans stay on low all the time. If you hook it back up the message will go away

The coolant level switch controls a message display in the DIC. The message displayed might also set as a P1620 code, but that circuit diagram doesn't look like a sensor for PCM input, so how does the coolant level sensor control SLOW fan speed ?

Are you confusing fans in SLOW which occurs with any A/C function, including DEFROST, set ?

This is interesting.

EDIT: According to the owner's manual and the service manual wiring diagrams, a low coolant condition only sets a "CHECK COOLANT LEVEL - 2" message.