: Going to the track



codewize
07-30-08, 03:25 PM
OK so this is somewhat of a first stage tune test. I'm heading to the track tonight. I'll post results later.

In the interest of not killing the car I'm only going to make 2 passes. One with the AJ tune and one with the stock PCM. I've raced before so I'm familiar with the situation.

If somethings a little askew or I feel like I didn't get a fair launch I'll make another pass.

ejguillot
07-30-08, 05:59 PM
Keep us posted, AJ finally put my PCM in the mail.

I would have to wait till neat the end of the year to hit the track, it's raining here in Tampa every day!

Ur7x
07-30-08, 08:21 PM
Very Cool
And Good Luck

Don't forget to record your trap speeds!

codewize
07-30-08, 10:41 PM
OK the result are in, after a long wait due to some import driver blowing up and spewing oil all over the track.

Vehicle Stats:
Volant intake, 1/2 tank of fuel (8 gals)?
80.6 deg F, 81% humidity


Pass # 1
AJ tune with TQ defeat system
reaction time .300 <<Not so hot but I haven't raced in 20 years
1/8 mile 10.2 seconds @ 72.57 MPH
1/4 mile 15.61 @ 90.17 MPH

Pass # 2
reaction time .094 <<Much better
1/8 mile 10.1 seconds @ 73.35 MPH
1/4 mile 15.49 @ 90.28 MPH

Pass # 3 after the long wait. I probably shouldn't even post this because it was a terrible red light run but here it is
reaction time -.068 <<There's a long story here
1/8 mile 10.53 seconds @ 72.81 MPH
1/4 mile 15.94 @ 90.02 MPH

Highline Cady
07-30-08, 10:49 PM
Nice.

If you take care of these (routine maintenance), and spend a little $, you can pound them all day at the track... and on the way home... and on the way to work the next morning... on the way to lunch... on the way home, again. :thumbsup:

codewize
07-30-08, 11:19 PM
LOL, so now the interesting thing here is if you do the math and subtract out the reaction times, you'll find that both good runs are exactly 15.39

So, AJ where do we go from here? Can I have my 01 tune back?


Nice.

If you take care of these (routine maintenance), and spend a little $, you can pound them all day at the track... and on the way home... and on the way to work the next morning... on the way to lunch... on the way home, again. :thumbsup:

Destroyer
07-30-08, 11:35 PM
So, AJ where do we go from here? Can I have my 01 tune back?:pwn:

Ur7x
07-30-08, 11:57 PM
:pwn:

Ya X2..

Help me out Code...

Pass one was on the AJ chip...
Pass two was on the stock chip?
Or were all three on the AJ tune and we are waiting for the stock runs?

There is a word for one tenth of mph difference...
I think the word is a tie

Highline Cady
07-31-08, 12:30 AM
The reaction time shouldn't mean anything. Unless you were bracket racing. Otherwise on a "test and tune" night the reaction times aren't figured into the 1/4 mile times. Basically, timing doesn't begin until you move. Hate to bum you out like that, but on your 15.6 you ran a 15.6 and on your 15.49 you ran a 15.49 same for the 15.9.

I am a little confused also, are all 3 runs on AJ's? Just the 1st? First 2?

I am happy you got down to the track, wish you'd have gotten some more runs, but there are good days down there and not so good ones. It's nice the few times you get down there and it turns out to be a perfect day, track, amount of people, and weather. Rare, but nice.

codewize
07-31-08, 07:31 AM
Runs 1 and 3 are on the AJ tune. Run 2 was on the factory tune.

Are we sure about the reaction time thing?

AJxtcman
07-31-08, 08:25 AM
post the 60' time please

AJxtcman
07-31-08, 08:27 AM
You should have called me a day before and I would have talked you into removing the head lamp. It is pretty easy and well worth it

AJxtcman
07-31-08, 08:33 AM
Ya X2..

Help me out Code...

Pass one was on the AJ chip...
Pass two was on the stock chip?
Or were all three on the AJ tune and we are waiting for the stock runs?

There is a word for one tenth of mph difference...
I think the word is a tie

Lets just say the 15.49 had the least amont of tire spin and it has a stock tune correct.
Hmmmmmm
14.6 looks pretty good out of a slightly heavier car with the same gears, a slightly taller tire and same intake :cookoo:

CadillacSTS42005
07-31-08, 08:58 AM
ouch
that doesnt look good...

ejguillot
07-31-08, 09:08 AM
Agreed! I'll do some track runs after installing the PCM and see where I end up.

AJ, removing the front headlamp shouldn't be necessary to see an improvement. You can't run like that on the street.

stngh8r
07-31-08, 10:41 AM
Are we sure about the reaction time thing?

Absolutely. The reaction time is not figured into the other track times.

60' time?

It looks like the MPH (power) is pretty close on all runs, but the middle run is clearly the best.

Ur7x
07-31-08, 11:31 AM
The 60' time is a measure of how well the car "hooks"
or Traction... It is not a measure of power.

I think AJ is looking for the 60' times to argue that the traction defeat is causing excessive wheel spin and that hurt the ET. He's right, it could.. The secret to a low ET is a great 60' time... BUT... we are focused on power production here...

And the problem is that the stock car had (ever so slightly) better 1/8mile and better 1/4mile trap speeds. And these are the bench mark for power production. Especially on a 15 second car... The slower the car the more trap speed becomes a pure function of power and wind resistance.

From the data that we have, sadly the stock car worked as good as the tuned car from just about every angle. I can't say better, 'cause its a tie.

While this is disappointing, it is not surprising... As I have posted in the past... If the rest of your engine is stock, it is difficult to beat a stock tune. There are some example where the OE uses the PCM as the "cork in the bottle" but these are not common, especially on a NA motor.

Where you need, and benefit from, a "tuned" chip is if you have made significant mechanical changes to the motor. Like more compression, longer duration cam, forced induction... etc.

Another argument could be the test wasn't fair...
I don't suppose you recorded weather conditions at the track?
Was it windy?
A head wind vs tail wind, especially on a 15 second car as big as Deville could also cause confusing results. But if the first two runs were fairly close then that shouldn't be too much of an issue.

Thank you Codewise for the first Apples to Apples test.
Too bad the results were such a bummer.

AJxtcman
07-31-08, 06:17 PM
The 60' time is a measure of how well the car "hooks"
or Traction... It is not a measure of power.

I think AJ is looking for the 60' times to argue that the traction defeat is causing excessive wheel spin and that hurt the ET. He's right, it could.. The secret to a low ET is a great 60' time... BUT... we are focused on power production here...

And the problem is that the stock car had (ever so slightly) better 1/8mile and better 1/4mile trap speeds. And these are the bench mark for power production. Especially on a 15 second car... The slower the car the more trap speed becomes a pure function of power and wind resistance.

From the data that we have, sadly the stock car worked as good as the tuned car from just about every angle. I can't say better, 'cause its a tie.

While this is disappointing, it is not surprising... As I have posted in the past... If the rest of your engine is stock, it is difficult to beat a stock tune. There are some example where the OE uses the PCM as the "cork in the bottle" but these are not common, especially on a NA motor.

Where you need, and benefit from, a "tuned" chip is if you have made significant mechanical changes to the motor. Like more compression, longer duration cam, forced induction... etc.

Another argument could be the test wasn't fair...
I don't suppose you recorded weather conditions at the track?
Was it windy?
A head wind vs tail wind, especially on a 15 second car as big as Deville could also cause confusing results. But if the first two runs were fairly close then that shouldn't be too much of an issue.

Thank you Codewise for the first Apples to Apples test.
Too bad the results were such a bummer.


I am ok with it

This is a 15.5 second DTS with a stock tune CORRECT?

I have a tune that ran 14.6 @ 95 on a Stock Engine!

It ran a 13.8 and got very little traction.

I will go back to the drawing board for Codewise and get him a killer tune.

codewize
07-31-08, 07:56 PM
Run 1 - 2.307
Run 2 - 2.397
Run 3 - 2.462


post the 60' time please

codewize
07-31-08, 08:06 PM
I posted weather conditions in the first post

Bar: 29.18
Deg F: 80.6
Humidity: 81%
Wind. 0 MPH

Now let me explain the third run. It really shouldn't even be factored in but in all fairness I wanted to give the tuned PCM another chance. Unfortunately I blew it.

As I said, we waited in the staging lanes for almost an hr and a half because of an oil spill. So now it's going for 10 pm and I know I'm going to make one more pass and leave.

I get up to stage and the pre-stage lite goes off so I figure I'm a little to far up. I think nothing of it because it's only test and tune so I load up the TC to about 2100 like the other runs but the tree doesn't come down.

So as I let off the throttle the lights come down. Now I'm off the gas so I panic and get back in it causing the red light. So the car was basically launched from idle in some non drag racing manner.

Now in regards to wheel spin I have to say that I didn't notice a lot of spin on any of the runs. Even my wife said how come your tires don't' spin when you take off.

Highline Cady
07-31-08, 08:18 PM
Ya, reaction times don't mean anything in this case. You don't subtract the reaction time to get a "perfect #" The reaction times are there to show you how good your reaction is off the light but it is not in any way figured into the times, at least not on a test and tune nite.

Some of our (AJ and me) best times were leaving the traction controll armed. But if we ran drag slicks and hooked w/ the traction defeat device enabled I gaurantee that we'd kill the "stock traction controll left on" times. The simple truth is on street tires with the device engaged you'll just smoke your tires, which is cool also, but hurts your time unless you get lucky and hook. At a slick track you'd probably get a better time leaving it on, but there is much more potential in it with the traction defeated (not turned off) and drag radials. I'll prove it I'll buy drag radials in August and we'll get back down there.

The convertor also gets hot and really can hurt your times. Since installing the 3500 stall on mine I consistently run 14.6-14.7 at 94-96 mph's. I was all over the place before, getting a great run followed by a bunch of "what the hell is wrong" runs. The convertor doesn't knock off as much time as some think but it has made it much much more consistent, and of course a little faster.

14.6 on the motor is looking real good now, especially out of a slightly heavier car w/ bigger outside diameter wheel/tires which weaken my 3.71's a bit compared to a stock 17" wheel and tire setup.

Highline Cady
07-31-08, 08:21 PM
Loading up the convertor is what hurt your time, for some reason they don't like this. My times are the best when I just stand on it after the second yellow lights up. I tried all sorts of different launch techniques. Simply flooring it has produced the best times. Your 15.9 sounds like the convertor was hot, mine used to do the same thing especially after loading it up on the line.

codewize
07-31-08, 08:53 PM
That could be. The car had plenty of time to cool between runs. I did that intentionally. However like I said I loaded it up waited, then ran that last run so that may be the case there as well as my bad launch.

All those runs were with the TC armed and the button in use.

So you're saying, with a hi-stall converter I should be able to take a whole second off the ET's?

AJxtcman
07-31-08, 10:29 PM
This Program CAN NOT see a Throttle Angle above 10% and a Brake Switch input!

On top of that I removed the PCM's brake switch and held it closed (off) on Highline car several time and the car would still not leave as fast as it would without any Throttle Angle. The Tech II showed that the brake was applied also. Yes the PCM's brake switch was tied off, but the ABS module was sending a brake applied message off the Class II data line.

If you hold your foot on the brake and give it 50% throttle it will shut off up to 4 cylinders.
Now that I need to work on. I think I can fix it and not mess up the Stabilitrak system. Just read about tunes in the CTS-V forum. Better yet ask URB what happens with a tune that has the Torque Management turned off and the car spinning out

Highline Cady
07-31-08, 10:48 PM
No No, not a full second. I actually don't think it helped as much as they claim it would. Thoughts were about .7-.8 seconds. I think it knocked off .3-.5 seconds, BUT greatly affected the consistency of my runs. Mine would jump all around stock. Even after most of the mods, my 1/4 mile times would be all over the place. Since the higher stall I've noticed probably right around a half second of improvement (which was a let down I was expecting closer to a full second) but the consistency is much improved. I'm sure that just about every time I stand on it from a dead stop on flat surface, that I'm running (w/o nitrous) 14.6's 14.7's every time. Before the stall I couldn't say that, some would be 14.9's some would be as slow as mid 15's, most were really low 15's and high 14's.

But the tune, in mine, has truly made the biggest difference. Keep in mind mine is a DHS, so it was a huge difference in, shift points 5800 to 6600, shift firmness (later we added a "shift kit" on 1-2 shift, soon the 2-3), top speed 112 to 150 I've personally done 137 that was fast enough to prove the point at least for me, and all around power/torque feeling. I know I know that last one is basically the "butt dyno" which everybody hates, but I think mine's dialed in pretty good and the slips have proved it. 16 flat at 87-88mph stock to 14.6 at 95-96mph after mods on motor.

Now we have done allot to mine, big stuff little stuff, where to the point where I can't even remember all of it, but as a package, we've knocked off 1.4 seconds and gained 7-8 mph just on the motor which is all cady parts, a few bolt ons, and some tricks. 125 shot of Nitrous got us into the high 13's at 105, and more of it along with drag radials will get us into the 12's. IT HAS BECOME A MISSION!!! I drive mine almost every day and use the Nitrous almost as often, currently running 150hp jets and having way to much fun.

I know most of you aren't going to go as wild as I have or am planning, but none of this would matter if it wasn't for the tune and traction defeat device, those make everything else work together at least on mine, I'll get drag slicks and prove it. Without drag slicks expect traction (or lack of) just like the video below. Oh and for the record that video run is without nitrous, the traction control defeat device activated, and then just stomping the gas pedal, never loaded up against the brake, just smashing down on the gas.

Highline Cady
07-31-08, 10:53 PM
Hell I don't know where the video clip went but I'm sure it's on this thread somewhere.

ejguillot
08-01-08, 02:10 AM
So then, what is the optimal launch technique for a otherwise stock N* tuned by AJ on street tires?

codewize
08-01-08, 08:32 AM
So you're both saying to launch the car from idle for a couple reasons? Hmm interesting but OK.

And Bert you're saying that you have no idea what your car ran stock? How did you get it into the 14's? The DHS should be about 200 - 300 # lighter than my DTS, right?

If I could run high 14's consistently I'd be a very happy camper. I guess a TC should get me there huh?

This is a mission for sure. I hadn't bee to the track in at least 17 years. Going back there was such a rush.

eldorado1
08-01-08, 10:25 AM
And the problem is that the stock car had (ever so slightly) better 1/8mile and better 1/4mile trap speeds. And these are the bench mark for power production.

Yep. And to whomever was arguing with me before about 1/4 mile times being more important, I think the last two runs show it clearly:

Pass # 2
1/4 mile 15.49 @ 90.28 MPH

Pass # 3
1/4 mile 15.94 @ 90.02 MPH

Almost a half second difference, but no change in MPH.

So.... I think we can put this to rest now. Stock computer will beat a modified computer.

AJxtcman
08-01-08, 11:01 AM
This is a on the brake vs off the brake launch graph.
Look at the spark @ 0mph and then look at the time difference to shift into 2nd
One more thing. I keep working on a brake launch and Highline doesn't (old school vs new school) and I have never ran his car as fast as he has. I have been right around 3 to 5 tens slower. On the same day, same track, one run then the next, let the car cool between runs, you know the routine
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Bert/bert.jpg

AJxtcman
08-01-08, 11:03 AM
Yep. And to whomever was arguing with me before about 1/4 mile times being more important, I think the last two runs show it clearly:

Pass # 2
1/4 mile 15.49 @ 90.28 MPH

Pass # 3
1/4 mile 15.94 @ 90.02 MPH

Almost a half second difference, but no change in MPH.

So.... I think we can put this to rest now. Stock computer will beat a modified computer.

I have NO problem admitting to that, but a Modified Tune will beat a stock tune also!

AJxtcman
08-01-08, 11:10 AM
I am also sending Codewize a Data Recorder out. This was in the works before this. I want to see how the tune is working in his car. :cool2:
I want to make sure the fuel trims are in line, the MAF is correct and the spark is working the same in his car

codewize
08-01-08, 11:22 AM
Another interesting thing, having nothing to do with ET's but I drove 45 minutes to the track, ran the runs and drove 45 minutes home with NO lean codes.

AJ I'll probably send you an email on this. BTW this has NOTHING to do with the PCM at all. It's another issue.

AJ, can I try that 01 program that I liked so much?

AJxtcman
08-01-08, 11:41 AM
Urbanski, I would be curious if you posed this question to your tuner. I'm not making allegations but there ARE functions of torque management that could affect stability control. A perfect example is someone setting torque management to 999 and removing axle abuse from the PCM. I've seen it before on C5's and on CTS-V's. They don't spin the car out like it has no stability, but rather stability trys to correct, but not enough and the car ends up being overcorrected by the driver and lowing into something/someone.

Respond back to XYZ

can you hack stabilitrak so it works and i don't crash anymore?


If I go any higher on the Torque Output it sets DTC's in the ABS and PCM.
If the ABS/TCS request the PCM to slow down the engine and it doesn't the ABS/TCS get upset and throws a flag. It maybe a yellow flag or it maybe a red flag, but that is no good.
Now the good news
I will get into the EBCM aka ABS/TCS module.

If you have any questions PM me or call me. Some of the stuff is in depth, but the more you here about it the more you will catch on to it.

AJxtcman
08-01-08, 11:43 AM
Another interesting thing, having nothing to do with ET's but I drove 45 minutes to the track, ran the runs and drove 45 minutes home with NO lean codes.

AJ I'll probably send you an email on this. BTW this has NOTHING to do with the PCM at all. It's another issue.

AJ, can I try that 01 program that I liked so much?

Yeah not problem

codewize
08-01-08, 12:08 PM
What do you make of that being such an intermittent problem?


Yeah not problem

Ur7x
08-01-08, 05:09 PM
I have NO problem admitting to that, but a Modified Tune will beat a stock tune also!

It just hasn't happened yet.

This was the first (and as far as I know ONLY) back to back... Apples to Apples, "only one change" PCM test.

Every other "faster run" on stock or tuned chips has been without a base line comparison. We have no idea if the 14 seconds runs is from the tuned chip, because we never took the 5 minutes it takes to swap PCMs and take another run... Hmmm

Every tuner worth his salt KNOWS that you can "wring" a tenth here, there, and everywhere on most stock cars WITHOUT changing ANYTHING on the motor.

Lower pressure in the tires... Different sized wheels, more cold air into the engine, change the launch RPM, install an LSD, looser TC, change the gear ratio... better intake box, better exhaust system etc. etc...

And guess what... all of the above was implemented on our "best" run cars...

What we now know... and it pains me to say this... on a VIN 9 PCM... the current proof is that there is ZERO benefit (other then top speed limiter removal) to the Tuned PCM...

Maybe a VIN Y car will prove different. That should be our next test.
From everything that I have read... There does appear to be some benefit to the VIN Y guys

AJxtcman
08-01-08, 05:20 PM
It just hasn't happened yet.

This was the first (and as far as I know ONLY) back to back... Apples to Apples, "only one change" PCM test.

Every other "faster run" on stock or tuned chips has been without a base line comparison. We have no idea if the 14 seconds runs is from the tuned chip, because we never took the 5 minutes it takes to swap PCMs and take another run... Hmmm

Every tuner worth his salt KNOWS that you can "wring" a tenth here, there, and everywhere on most stock cars WITHOUT changing ANYTHING on the motor.

Lower pressure in the tires... Different sized wheels, more cold air into the engine, change the launch RPM, install an LSD, looser TC, change the gear ratio... better intake box, better exhaust system etc. etc...

And guess what... all of the above was implemented on our "best" run cars...

What we now know... and it pains me to say this... on a VIN 9 PCM... the current proof is that there is ZERO benefit (other then top speed limiter removal) to the Tuned PCM...

Maybe a VIN Y car will prove different. That should be our next test.
From everything that I have read... There does appear to be some benefit to the VIN Y guys

Highline ran a 15.1 with the same setup as Codewize. The only small change was the Corsa. so?

We have done lots of Apples to Apples, but you don't like them

Ur7x
08-01-08, 05:31 PM
Highline ran a 15.1 with the same setup as Codewize. The only small change was the Corsa. so?
so... based on Code's results... Highline should switch back to the stock PCM and run 15 seconds flat.


We have done lots of Apples to Apples, but you don't like them

I don't like them 'cause I have never seen them... They don't exist...They have never been done. Codewise was the first.

Is it just me or are these posts like deja vu... I think the way this works is that now you respond with confusing carts and graphs of cars with dozens of changes between dyno and tech II data logging runs and you tell me that you have proof...

AJxtcman
08-01-08, 06:38 PM
I can send you a stock Germany program that will slow your car down if you would like

Ur7x
08-01-08, 08:01 PM
I can send you a stock Germany program that will slow your car down if you would like

Yes we all know that the German PCMs have an "engine de-tune" function between shifts... to make the car more quiet. As far as I know none of those PCMs were sold in N/A...

And we know that the VIN 9 PCMs seem to be more aggressive then the VIN Y.. Most of the "feels way faster" testimonials come from "VIN Y" guys... That why I suggest that we do a VIN Y test... The VIN 9 test was, at best ,inconclusive.

And you and I both know that my car is a "Z/W" rated F45 Vin 9'er...
I suspect that my car's PCM has been "cloned" onto a few members cars...
:shhh:

AJxtcman
08-01-08, 10:37 PM
Yes we all know that the German PCMs have an "engine de-tune" function between shifts... to make the car more quiet. As far as I know none of those PCMs were sold in N/A...

And we know that the VIN 9 PCMs seem to be more aggressive then the VIN Y.. Most of the "feels way faster" testimonials come from "VIN Y" guys... That why I suggest that we do a VIN Y test... The VIN 9 test was, at best ,inconclusive.

And you and I both know that my car is a "Z/W" rated F45 Vin 9'er...
I suspect that my car's PCM has been "cloned" onto a few members cars...
:shhh:

You still don't understand that I have found over 50 different stock tunes for 2003 cars!
All the US and Canada car use the same tune.
I have several US W rated tire tunes with the same emissions.
YES GM has more than one tune for an 2003 STS with W rated tire and the same emission standards with the same suspension options!
You don't get why!
That is all the stock stuff
Now in about 2 or 3 months you can purchase the tuning software and tune it your self, but you won't have what I have spent the last year doing!

Ur7x
08-01-08, 11:22 PM
Your post points to the problem... Yes there are lots off stock tunes... Yes some are better then others... Here is the challenge... None of us know if the current tune in our car is a Good one or a Bad one...

It looks like Codewise went from a Good "stock" PCM to an equivalent "tuned" PCM

Maybe rather then arguing...
We need to do another test...

When I tuned chips this is what you did...
change the chip... make a run... test the results... repeat

This is the first time we actually tested the tune...
We need more time at the track or on the dyno.

MisterBlue
08-02-08, 12:16 AM
Only because I have the book handy, here's the Motor Trend DTS test data from a 2001/2002 buyer's guide.
0-30 2.7
0-40 3.8
0-50 5.4
0-60 7.2
1/4 mile 15.4 @ 91.1

I have aother book somewhere that gave times on an earlier DTS in the 1/4 mile of 15.1, with a 0-60 of 6.7

Starting from it's inception, and for some odd reason, the DTS seems to have gotten predictably slower year by year. Some of this was probably the result of the regular gas switchover, while some seems due to continually milder camming.

AJxtcman
08-02-08, 08:37 AM
Your post points to the problem... Yes there are lots off stock tunes... Yes some are better then others... Here is the challenge... None of us know if the current tune in our car is a Good one or a Bad one...

It looks like Codewise went from a Good "stock" PCM to an equivalent "tuned" PCM

Maybe rather then arguing...
We need to do another test...

When I tuned chips this is what you did...
change the chip... make a run... test the results... repeat

This is the first time we actually tested the tune...
We need more time at the track or on the dyno.

I can tell you what I changed, but why?

Like both Codewize and myself has stated before. You can pull out a PCM and install another. The second PCM will out perform the first until the Adaptive are learned! This may take up to two weeks.
If Codewize left the stock PCM in and drove around for two weeks and went to the track his time would not be the same as he ran and the tuned PCM would outperformed it. This is a fact! 100% FACT!
I have read a lot on this FACT.
I have done testing to prove it. I ran X with program 500 and then re-burned program 500 into the PCM and ran faster.


NOW WITH ALL MY CHARTS.
You need to look at the information and I am not talking about the charts.
We have been using this also
http://www.palmerperformance.com/products/pcmscan/screenshots/dragstrip_big.png

http://www.palmerperformance.com/products/pcmscan/screenshots/dyno_big.png

Why isn't that OK?
The time scale on the Tech II is ok also.

AJxtcman
08-02-08, 08:53 AM
Go out and buy the PCMScan for your self.

Submariner409
08-02-08, 09:56 AM
The second graph shows a date of 1969, a car weight of 1,000 lbs., and a final drive ratio of 6:1, all moved by some mysterious engine of rather impressive power output.

What do these two graphs have to do with Sevilles, Devilles, Cadillacs, and PCM tuning ???

Looks like drag racing on Saturday night in front of the HDTV with a beer and an X-Box.

Ur7x
08-02-08, 10:03 AM
I can tell you what I changed, but why?


I'm not asking what you changed, I don't want or need to know what you changed... I mean who wants to change their PCM and lose a tenth?




Like both Codewize and myself has stated before. You can pull out a PCM and install another. The second PCM will out perform the first until the Adaptive are learned! This may take up to two weeks. If Codewize left the stock PCM in and drove around for two weeks and went to the track his time would not be the same as he ran and the tuned PCM would outperformed it. This is a fact! 100% FACT!
I have read a lot on this FACT.
I have done testing to prove it. I ran X with program 500 and then re-burned program 500 into the PCM and ran faster.



Not only does that not make sense... These PCMs have an adaptive keep alive memory...it takes YEARs for them to RESET...Plugged in or sitting on a shelf... That too is a 100% FACT
But If you'all knew this about this supposed problem going in...Why even do the test?

But if you apply this logic to Codewise's third run on your PCM it too should have all of the parameters reset and the car should have run even better on the third run...or at least faster then the first...

BUT, your PCM, with reset parameters was the WORST of the BUNCH...
AND THAT TOO is a FACT.

OK never mind lets say you are right...
lets say this PCM self adjusts and lets say it instantly forgets its adaption when unplug (it hasn't been like this 1995 but what the heck) ...
This goes back to what I was saying all along...
and I'll make it big and caps so there is no confusion

MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE HAS BEEN THAT ON MOST GAS CARS WITHOUT MECHANICAL IMPROVEMENTS A TUNED PCM BUYS YOU LITTLE IF ANY CHANGE IN PERFORMANCE.

Codewise's test demonstrates this. And thats a FACT!

I think from your last statement you are saying there is no need for more testing... Or taking a Vin Y to the dyno/track 'cause there is no way to prove this tune.

Thats too bad.
The proof on the table is that the tune does not Help Vin 9 Cars...
BUT MAYBE IT CAN HELP VIN Y CARS...





NOW WITH ALL MY CHARTS.
You need to look at the information and I am not talking about the charts.
We have been using this also
http://www.palmerperformance.com/products/pcmscan/screenshots/dragstrip_big.png

http://www.palmerperformance.com/products/pcmscan/screenshots/dyno_big.png

Why isn't that OK?
The time scale on the Tech II is ok also.

Why is that not OK?
You're joking right...
You want us to consider a drag race simulator vs

Real Life DATA

No-ones car ran 13.2... What is the point of posting a simulated 13.2 run when in Real Life these cars are all at best 14-15 second cars

I have copies of dyno2003 and drag2003... I can post charts of 11 second cars 12 second cars and 13 second cars too... All that does, like the cart above, is confuse everyone.

That chart is as relevant to our cars as the price of tea in China.

If you posted that chart in the HOPEs that someone on this board will see it and think WOW someone runs 13.2 quarters in a Northstar powered Deville... THATs NOT ACCURATE.

AJxtcman
08-02-08, 10:59 AM
Why is that not OK?
You're joking right...
You want us to consider a drag race simulator vs

Real Life DATA

No-ones car ran 13.2... What is the point of posting a simulated 13.2 run when in Real Life these cars are all at best 14-15 second cars

I have copies of dyno2003 and drag2003... I can post charts of 11 second cars 12 second cars and 13 second cars too... All that does, like the cart above, is confuse everyone.

That chart is as relevant to our cars as the price of tea in China.

If you posted that chart in the HOPEs that someone on this board will see it and think WOW someone runs 13.2 quarters in a Northstar powered Deville... THATs NOT ACCURATE.



Sorry I messed up
Those are not my screen shot!
They are from the Palmers website.
I have not posted any of the PCMscan Dyno or 1/4 mile times because I need to go back in and build a new program for Highline with his 18" tires!
Why post something that far off?

AJxtcman
08-02-08, 11:14 AM
I'm not asking what you changed, I don't want or need to know what you changed... I mean who wants to change their PCM and lose a tenth?


I don't think so!

I have NO idea what the Stock Tune will pull out on timing if you try to launch with the brake!

I can tell you that you can't do that with my Tune!
To get the Torque Management to work with the EBCM I had to rescale it. Do you under stand that?
I Codewize would have talk to me first I would have told him all the tricks.
I have done a lot of testing and if you crack that throttle on my tune it will retard the timing in to the the minus area.
Will his stock tune?
His stock tune may just turn off the cylinders.

You still don't get who I know and who has been helping me!
I am not doing this on my own and haven't been from the start.
How could myself a tech just come out with a tune?
I have Help from some major um I can't say.
I think you may be getting it.
Special thanks to BOB

codewize
08-02-08, 11:34 AM
OK Well as you all know, I'm the first one who wants to be fair here.

I was the first one with an attempted dyno run and I'm the first one to post track results, aside from AJ.

Someone tell me who to launch the car for best results and I'll do it. Let's try another tune? I'm all for fairness but I think we need more than a tenth of a second difference to really be sure.

As stated before, a tenth can come or go from anyone of a million variables. That's exactly why I wanted to do another (the third run) with the tuned PCM. To be sure it wasn't by chance or luck that the stock PCM ran better.

Ur7x
08-02-08, 11:40 AM
I was the first one with an attempted dyno run and I'm the first one to post track results, aside from AJ.

As stated before, a tenth can come or go from anyone of a million variables. That's exactly why I wanted to do another (the third run) with the tuned PCM. To be sure it wasn't by chance or luck that the stock PCM ran better.

Very true... As your tests shows... neither tune ran better.. they were so close that they should be considered a tie.

NHRATA01
08-02-08, 02:40 PM
MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE HAS BEEN THAT ON MOST GAS CARS WITHOUT MECHANICAL IMPROVEMENTS A TUNED PCM BUYS YOU LITTLE IF ANY CHANGE IN PERFORMANCE.



Well what is your personal experience? I'm sorry, but I 100% disagree with you on that. I have been wrenching on GM LSx vehicles for about 8 years, and I've personally seen numerous examples of cases where a custom PCM tune has gained as much as 20-30hp at the wheels, back to back dynos, and track testing to back up the gain on the dyno.

GM has a general tune it installs on a given car. That tune is to suffice for the entire fleet of that model it is producing, granted with probably a number of small updates throughout the model run. They are not going to spend the effort to test and fine tune each car. But with production variances, what is optimum for one car may not be for another. And manufacturers tend to tune cars conservatively. When I had a custom dyno tune done on my car, the stock tune was calling for a max of 22 degrees advance at WOT, and the a/f was hoving around 11.8-12.0. Just by bumping the timing up to 26 degrees, and leaning it out to a 12.5 target, the car gained about 15hp.

Go take a 2.0 turbo car, like the new Cobalt or Sky Redline, and they are tuned absurdly fat from the factory just as an added safety against detonation. Certainly not tuned optimum for the setup. Nevermind the new GM autos that have Torque Management up the ying yang. GMHTP magazine took an '06 GTO, gave it a tune cutting down the TM, some good tires, and a 2600 stall, and shaved almost a second off the stock time.

Ur7x
08-02-08, 03:26 PM
Well what is your personal experience? I'm sorry, but I 100% disagree with you on that. I have been wrenching on GM LSx vehicles for about 8 years, and I've personally seen numerous examples of cases where a custom PCM tune has gained as much as 20-30hp at the wheels, back to back dynos, and track testing to back up the gain on the dyno.

GM has a general tune it installs on a given car. That tune is to suffice for the entire fleet of that model it is producing, granted with probably a number of small updates throughout the model run. They are not going to spend the effort to test and fine tune each car. But with production variances, what is optimum for one car may not be for another. And manufacturers tend to tune cars conservatively. When I had a custom dyno tune done on my car, the stock tune was calling for a max of 22 degrees advance at WOT, and the a/f was hoving around 11.8-12.0. Just by bumping the timing up to 26 degrees, and leaning it out to a 12.5 target, the car gained about 15hp.

Go take a 2.0 turbo car, like the new Cobalt or Sky Redline, and they are tuned absurdly fat from the factory just as an added safety against detonation. Certainly not tuned optimum for the setup. Nevermind the new GM autos that have Torque Management up the ying yang. GMHTP magazine took an '06 GTO, gave it a tune cutting down the TM, some good tires, and a 2600 stall, and shaved almost a second off the stock time.

You are correct sir... That's why I was careful to add the word.. "MOST" and "GAS"

Let me expand my quote..

Just about EVERY Diesel will benefit from a CHIP as will just about EVERY Turbo car...

But on Normally aspirated gas engines... again MOST engines will not benefit much from a chip... Your are right most of the The LSx's will... Believe it or not GM detuned these engines to:
1) Keep insurance companies happy
2) Keep the corvette supreme
3) Balance power production vs transmission and suspension capabilities (limited success here)

From what I have heard, in direct conversations with the engineers who built the Northstar, they left nothing on the table when it came to the PCM. It is reported in base tune to run ever so slightly rich to help protect the engine.

There might be a few horses by leaning out the mixture... But only a couple.

eldorado1
08-02-08, 07:03 PM
Go take a 2.0 turbo car, like the new Cobalt or Sky Redline, and they are tuned absurdly fat from the factory just as an added safety against detonation. Certainly not tuned optimum for the setup.

They're not tuned optimally, they're tuned to last 100k for the warranty. There's always a trade off.

Our cars will run as rich as 10:1 under sustained WOT to cool the pistons. Yes, there is a horsepower hit. Yes, it's better than pushing the car home.

That said, there was a horsepower TV episode where they added 1 degree of timing to a supercharged LS1 and gained 50hp. Our cars aren't supercharged though.

I think 10-15hp should be easily gained by a tune, but you have to know what you're doing not to push it too far and you have to run 91+ octane.

NHRATA01
08-02-08, 08:23 PM
You are correct sir... That's why I was careful to add the word.. "MOST" and "GAS"

Let me expand my quote..

Just about EVERY Diesel will benefit from a CHIP as will just about EVERY Turbo car...

But on Normally aspirated gas engines... again MOST engines will not benefit much from a chip... Your are right most of the The LSx's will... Believe it or not GM detuned these engines to:
1) Keep insurance companies happy
2) Keep the corvette supreme
3) Balance power production vs transmission and suspension capabilities (limited success here)

From what I have heard, in direct conversations with the engineers who built the Northstar, they left nothing on the table when it came to the PCM. It is reported in base tune to run ever so slightly rich to help protect the engine.

There might be a few horses by leaning out the mixture... But only a couple.

Actually in regards to points 1 and 2, they typically underrate the motor in various applications - but when you throw it on a dyno they'll put down similar numbers that indicate it's making more power than advertised. In the case of the LS1 Fbody vs. Ybody, they made the same power, and most of the times were a hair quicker than the Vettes. In the newer LSx platforms, cars such as the GTO and CTS-V will make the same power, but being they are in the range of 800lbs heavier, the Vette can be the big dog even making the same power. But yes I do agree with the third point about protecting the drivelines. I think they learned a lesson with so many LS1 warranty claims for wrecked 10 bolt rears, lol.

Anyways on a 2000+ Caddy tuned from the factory for 87, I would bet you'd gain a decent amount of power retuning the fuel/spark curves for 91 or 93.

AJxtcman
08-02-08, 08:41 PM
What if I set the AFR up for 12.5 to 12.6 and set the Timing Low Octane Table to mirror the High Octane Table?
Oh yeah I used a wideband on the AFR

AJxtcman
08-02-08, 08:44 PM
What if I was advised of the high octane trick by a GM engineer. What if I got the engineers number from a family friend (Bob)

eldorado1
08-02-08, 09:02 PM
Rich mean best torque is at 12.2:1, lean mean best torque is at 12.8:1.

If you copy the high octane table and paste it into the low octane table, and run 87 octane you are going to get KR and run SLOWER than you would if you kept the low octane table stock. Which brings up my next question - codewise - what are you running for gas?

Submariner409
08-02-08, 09:46 PM
:suspect: AJ, re: Your last post. Are you capable of shutting the lid of the Pandora's Box that your references to a nebulous "Bob" will probably open ?? (For the relative newcomers, go all the way back to pages 1 - 8 (2003) of this and Seville and look for threads started by...."......bob".)

Stand on your own two feet without props.......cagey references to "He said, She said" won't even buy a draft Silver Sissy at Happy Hour.

codewize
08-02-08, 10:23 PM
On those runs I fueled up with Sunoco 93 octane. I normally run 89 for every day use. Sometimes 91 to be nice but whenever I'm going to 'run' the car, I use 93.


Rich mean best torque is at 12.2:1, lean mean best torque is at 12.8:1.

If you copy the high octane table and paste it into the low octane table, and run 87 octane you are going to get KR and run SLOWER than you would if you kept the low octane table stock. Which brings up my next question - codewise - what are you running for gas?

eldorado1
08-03-08, 08:03 PM
:suspect: AJ, re: Your last post. Are you capable of shutting the lid of the Pandora's Box that your references to a nebulous "Bob" will probably open ?? (For the relative newcomers, go all the way back to pages 1 - 8 (2003) of this and Seville and look for threads started by...."......bob".)

Stand on your own two feet without props.......cagey references to "He said, She said" won't even buy a draft Silver Sissy at Happy Hour.

His Bob isn't the same Bob you and I know.

that Bob would definitely say "no dice" to any DIY tune gains.

Destroyer
08-03-08, 08:25 PM
What if I was advised of the high octane trick by a GM engineer. What if I got the engineers number from a family friend (Bob)What if my aunt had a penis?............. She'd be my uncle!!!!:eek::eek::eek:

AJxtcman
08-03-08, 11:19 PM
Home of All

Westers Custom Performance Tunes


FACT : a customized ECU or PCM with our performance chip calibration is the CHEAPEST and usually the ONLY way to increase the performance level of your computer controlled fuel injected gasoline or diesel engine.

Whether it's gasoline or diesel--we can turn up the boost, make that transmission shift right, remove speed and rev limiting, while improving fuel economy, and improve overall drivability.

We've spent considerable time developing high mileage calibrations for your GM, Ford, Dodge and import car and trucks.


I know I know. You can't believe everything you read on the Internet

Destroyer
08-07-08, 09:29 PM
This thread shouldn't die here. The "Northstar Tuning" thread has 117,800 hits. All 117,800 watchers had hopes the "AJ tune" would make their cars faster, instead they became slower....................I called BS on the "AJ tune" a long, long, long time ago.

You guys flip the bill for AJ's learning curve. You do the dyno testing, the track testing and pay for the modified ecu's and the shipping, etc. AJ gets to experiment and "if" he finds a combo that works he will capitalize on it without spending any money. If he doesn't find the right tune, oh well. Perhaps I underestimated AJ..............................

codewize
08-08-08, 12:42 AM
I wonder how many other people have money into this.

Ur7x
08-08-08, 10:36 AM
AJ PM'ed me that he has sold over 50 of them.

Submariner409
08-08-08, 10:37 AM
Code.......Probably not many because the monetary return is so low. We're (4.6 Northstar Seville/Eldorado/Deville) dealing with a small run of FWD cars which have little potential for even modest bolt-on power gains. A lot of people in a lot of threads have stated the obvious: Given the car and design constraints of a FWD, the engineers did a pretty good job of squeezing the most amount of relatively reliable power out of a 279 c.i. engine. Make no mistake.....a 279 c.i. engine is small for a 4,000 lb. vehicle, and to make significant power increases involves supercharging or nitrous. No amount of PCM tweaking is going to put anyone in the 11's. To accomplish that you needserious, dedicated engineering in the intake, fuel delivery, and exhaust departments, and the car we're dealing with is not space or mechanically friendly to do that. Then you have to keep that power on the ground.

A lot of people buy a late Seville-era Northstar car for ??? $9,500 ??? and then come here looking for $250 bolt-on instant horsepower increases. It isn't going to happen today or tomorrow, and only the very few are willing to spend the $12,000 - $18,000 to turn a large sedan into a screamer.

......and, based on Ur7x's post just now, AJ is advertising somewhere else, because there aren't 50 Northstar owners posting in this thread. (11, actually)

AJxtcman
08-08-08, 01:37 PM
You guys flip the bill for AJ's learning curve. You do the dyno testing, the track testing and pay for the modified ecu's and the shipping, etc. AJ gets to experiment and "if" he finds a combo that works he will capitalize on it without spending any money. If he doesn't find the right tune, oh well. Perhaps I underestimated AJ..............................

I pay for the shipping. I have paid for dyno pulls. I have paid for track time.
I have spent countless hours working on this.

Who told you that I was the one building the tune?

I can purchase tunes for $2XX as a dealer. Get it right!


AJ PM'ed me that he has sold over 50 of them.
http://www.metrovancouver.org/about/departments/PublishingImages/Managers/GregSmith.gif :welcome: :histeric:


I wonder how many other people have money into this.

Not many.
I have sent a lot out without a return.

I just sent you a data-logger at no charge.
We will see what is up!
I have a good idea, but I don't want to say yet!
That is why you are going to tell me once you get the Data-logs!
You don't think the lean condition has an effect on it? :nono:

codewize
08-08-08, 06:04 PM
I know that. I'm certainly not one of them :)

I understand that also, You have definitely gone out of your way to do the right thing for me, no question.

Normally I would say yes, of course it does but the day I went I drove 40 minutes up there with no codes, ran the car and returned home with no codes all night long. So I honestly have to say that I don't think the code problem effected these runs. I could be wrong but that's my reasoning.

AJ I'm not trying to beat you up, I've always been on your side, I just want honest and fair trial and tribulation.



Not many.
I have sent a lot out without a return.

I just sent you a data-logger at no charge.
We will see what is up!
I have a good idea, but I don't want to say yet!
That is why you are going to tell me once you get the Data-logs!
You don't think the lean condition has an effect on it? :nono:

AJxtcman
08-08-08, 07:51 PM
If I send you my Hard Drive can you find all my missing files and put them under one user!

I can't find most of my Bins and my VDF!

I will copy my disc first to the other Hard Drive:noidea:

codewize
08-08-08, 08:49 PM
I can't make any promises AJ but usually if the hard drive spins up I can recover most everything. If there are only certain files you need, say *.bin that makes it a lot quicker and easier.

Send it along I'll do my best.


If I send you my Hard Drive can you find all my missing files and put them under one user!

I can't find most of my Bins and my VDF!

I will copy my disc first to the other Hard Drive:noidea:

CadillacSTS42005
08-08-08, 09:11 PM
wow
this thread has seriously turned....

Destroyer
08-08-08, 10:43 PM
Hmmm, I need to go posting a lot of graphs and spreadsheets and BS people in forums. What other untapped cars are there?. You know, something where there is some demand for high performance but no aftermarket support is available. Wonder how I'd deal with it when others caught on. I could see it now:

Unsatisfied customer: "Hey Destroyer, I hooked up the ecu with the "Destroyer tune" and my car ran slower the first pass and blew up in the second pass. I will continue to be nice to you and kiss your behind in hopes that maybe, possibly, after all this time and money, this may just have been a fluke and you really might be able to get my running good but still. "

Me: Oh you modded your "car X" with my "Destroyer tune" and it got destroyed?. Fear not! I will post a pic of '32 Ford with an engine like the one in your "car X" and let you sit on that for awhile till I post up more useless graphs, charts, BS dyno's of other cars and shit to keep you hushed up for a bit. Oh, and I'll talk to my friend Ralph about it too. :alchi:

CadillacSTS42005
08-08-08, 10:56 PM
Im sure if any of us were truly dissatisfied and asked for our money back due to the fact that the tune didnt work, AJ would do it...
I am willing to work with him on it and i trust the guy hence why i havent

codewize
08-08-08, 11:06 PM
Destroyer, I'm looking at the big picture here. There are a lot of things that AJ does with a lot of people off the forums.

I've never met AJ and I probably never will. I'm not sure what the deal is with the tunes. I was disappointed myself BUT if we learn something from it, it helps everyone.

Remember that AJ has provided us with the ONLY available solid motor mounts for cars which tear the crap out of the highly mis-engineered factory ones.

Remember that AJ gave us the ability to launch a car with the traction control active but not have it interfere with engine output.

I realize those are both small things on their own and that they really have nothing to do with the PCM but it's something. At the very least it shows AJ's desire to make the N* powered cars better IF we can.

Maybe a tuned PCM will never run better and maybe it'll be a total failure but at least someone with the knowledge and the resources is trying like hell.

As far as money goes I received my first 4 PCM's and was never asked for a dime. I think AJ is charging $100 for a solid mount? That's not a deal? Does that sound like someone trying to rip people off?

Destroyer, I hear what you're saying and I see why you're saying it, and from most standpoints I agree BUT I'm not just someone who's blinded hoping for a good turnout. I'm prepared to say, this sucks and it's not going to work. I'm prepared to say AJ you're tune doesn't do anything. But I'm not going to say that until we've proven it forward and backward and I'm not going to say that until we all feel that it's been given a fair shakedown.

No one else is helping with any testing or expenses so I'm doing this on my own. I asked for help with dyno funding and everyone ran away.

As long as someone says, well if you did X it could have been different. Then I'm going to keep doing X until it's proven. One way or the other.

CadillacSTS42005
08-08-08, 11:11 PM
Codewise is really the only one who truly has a right to complain here...
anyone who provide any funding is a distant second
and people who have provided absolutely nothing have NO right to make any comments...

BTW code i have done some testing as well and my tuned pcm was slower as well but i had a bad program which crippled my redline and shift points to a mere 5k...
i have since been too busy and lazy to mail out the pcm back to AJ to get it reflashed...

Destroyer
08-09-08, 12:17 AM
.......and people who have provided absolutely nothing have NO right to make any comments...

.I disagree. I am a business man and I'm pretty good at weeding people out. I DO have the right to comment as does anyone else on the forum. If, for nothing else, to make some people wake up. The Northstar will not live much longer. If there is some demand for performance out of a FWD N* it will be short lived and not worth the time or money to develop the parts. Not for the manufacturer anyway. A handful of owners wont pay the bills.

IF AJ had something already developed BEFORE he came here, with proven dyno's and track times it would have given him some legitamacy. Instead he took you all for a ride. I'm just a bystander that at one time really liked the N* motor but can smell BS when I see it. AJ's constant graphs and charts and BS do not equal a better running Northstar powered car and it really is that simple. I was hoping to see something as much as you guys. When the "tuning" thread started I still had a good running '98 Deville. It wreaked BS, just like my N* wreaked Dexcool from the start.

Destroyer
08-09-08, 12:20 AM
BTW code i have done some testing as well and my tuned pcm was slower as well but i had a bad program which crippled my redline and shift points to a mere 5k...
i have since been too busy and lazy to mail out the pcm back to AJ to get it reflashed...And you still defend the "AJ tune".:histeric:

CadillacSTS42005
08-09-08, 12:35 AM
dude what would you have me do
turn him into the paypal police to get my money back
yea and ill say hi to the tooth fairy on her daily rounds
be real here at the very least he offers exactly what westers does removal of the limiter for the same cost
so why beat him up over it...

msta293412
08-09-08, 08:27 AM
This Destroyer guy, is interesting...Besides not owning a Cadillac(according to his sig) and besides bashing AJ, who as many of you can attest to, has at least tried to help most of us in one way or another, He doesnt seem to even like the Northstar motor(anymore) taking stabs at it with leaking dexcool remarks....I agree, everyone has a right to comment. but not everyone has to listen....:thehand:

AJxtcman
08-09-08, 12:14 PM
dude what would you have me do
turn him into the paypal police to get my money back
yea and ill say hi to the tooth fairy on her daily rounds
be real here at the very least he offers exactly what westers does removal of the limiter for the same cost
so why beat him up over it...

Dude I am way over stressed with everything in my life (moving, work, kids) I need to get this right.
I sent you one PCM at NO charge and it never ran in your car, because you did not pay to have it setup by a dealer. BTW that was a slow tune.

Then you bought a PCM and had it sent to me for $XXX and that had a tune in it that shifted at 5000, but you never had the Crank Variance learned correct?

Then you sent me the first PCM back and I put the correct tune in it, set up the VTD and sent it back. You would need to have the Crank Variance learned on it. Is this correct?

You have 3 PCM's correct?
#1 Stock
#2 early shifts
#3 the correct tune
This is what you have correct?



i have since been too busy and lazy to mail out the pcm back to AJ to get it reflashed...

I thought you needed to send me one, but I can't remember why?
I thought I got you a good tune in #3

Let me know ASAP
I have everyting packed up to move. It will be in Charlotte and I will be in Milwaukee

codewize
08-09-08, 12:53 PM
I recognize that you are part of this as well. I just didn't want to go astray in my post.

Your efforts are noted. :)


BTW code i have done some testing as well and my tuned pcm was slower as well but i had a bad program which crippled my redline and shift points to a mere 5k...
i have since been too busy and lazy to mail out the pcm back to AJ to get it reflashed...

CadillacSTS42005
08-09-08, 05:12 PM
Dude I am way over stressed with everything in my life (moving, work, kids) I need to get this right.
I sent you one PCM at NO charge and it never ran in your car, because you did not pay to have it setup by a dealer. BTW that was a slow tune.

Then you bought a PCM and had it sent to me for $XXX and that had a tune in it that shifted at 5000, but you never had the Crank Variance learned correct?

Then you sent me the first PCM back and I put the correct tune in it, set up the VTD and sent it back. You would need to have the Crank Variance learned on it. Is this correct?

You have 3 PCM's correct?
#1 Stock
#2 early shifts
#3 the correct tune
This is what you have correct?



I thought you needed to send me one, but I can't remember why?
I thought I got you a good tune in #3

Let me know ASAP
I have everyting packed up to move. It will be in Charlotte and I will be in Milwaukee

woah woah
AJ i think you took what i said the wrong way
i was defending you and telling them to back down, i believe in you, i havent asked for any of my money back have i lol
that said yes i have those 3 pcms now, the dealer DID do the relearn on the Crank on the 5k shifting pcm and its still shifting way too early.
If i get the tuned non vtd set up pcm out to you Monday would that work and where would you like me to send it, sorry for the lateness college is starting soon and ive had alot on my plate with getting the ETC ready for my sis to take it 2 states away...

Destroyer
08-10-08, 10:27 PM
This Destroyer guy, is interesting...Besides not owning a Cadillac(according to his sig) and besides bashing AJ, who as many of you can attest to, has at least tried to help most of us in one way or another, He doesnt seem to even like the Northstar motor(anymore) taking stabs at it with leaking dexcool remarks....I agree, everyone has a right to comment. but not everyone has to listen....:thehand:
Hmm, I must agree, I am pretty interesting and I dont own a Cadillac at the moment. FYI: I have had 3 Cadillacs since I joined here in '03, one of them being a "98 Deville and I still hang around. I'm also waiting to hear back from the owner of a CTS-V I made an offer on.

Secondly, I would come down on anyone, not just AJ that I thought was running a scam. I do think he is knowledgeable, I do think he is probably a fine Cadillac technician. I know he has helped people out. I dont, however, think he can do what many more qualified and better funded big companies couldn't do. I dont think that asking money for ANYTHING that is not proven should be allowed. He is NOT a vendor and he's been pushing this crap to people in here and some took the bait and actually paid money. Not only for the ecu's but for dyno's, dragstrip runs, S&H, etc. I personally would feel like a scumbag if I was him for selling someone an ECU that made his car slower. This stuff should be tested BEFORE trying to get money for it.

I wanted to believe AJ is legit but he does and says stupid sh*t all the time. This "Bob" guy whenever someone questions him. His relentless excuses, like moving or his stepdaughter (which he hates), or this or that is in the mail or whatever. His posts of stupid graphs and pictures of other cars or whatever to keep people at bay. All red flags.

AJxtcman
08-11-08, 07:41 AM
Hmm, I do think he is knowledgeable, I do think he is probably a fine Cadillac technician.
I have been a ASE Master Certified Tech since High School. Yes I was ASE Master Certified in High School how many techs can say that. I have taken all but 1 GM assessments. I have been on the waiting list for a year for that one. I have never Failed a GM assessment. I am in VERY GOOD standing with GM and my zone. The Zone Manager has sent cars and trucks to me from other dealer to be fixed. This is never a money maker.



I dont, however, think he can do what many more qualified and better funded big companies couldn't do.
All the big companies can do it also! They don't want to!
Do some research and find out how


I personally would feel like a scumbag if I was him for selling someone an ECU that made his car slower. This stuff should be tested BEFORE trying to get money for it. [/qoute]

This has been tested and proven!
My tune has taken over almost a second off cars!
Proven at the track!
You don't want to listen



[QUOTE=Destroyer;1602083]
I wanted to believe AJ is legit but he does and says stupid sh*t all the time. This "Bob" guy whenever someone questions him. His relentless excuses, like moving or his stepdaughter (which he hates), or this or that is in the mail or whatever. His posts of stupid graphs and pictures of other cars or whatever to keep people at bay. All red flags.
What the Fuk is wrong with the graphs?
Are you a complete idiot?
What would you get from a DYNO?
Since I had a poor dyno run on a TUNE FROM WESTER'S I have done some research. I came to the conclusion that Dyno's calculate Time VS Load = HP

If car X travels down a road, but not to X distance, instead to X mph in X amount of second this would be X amount of Horse Power!

Same Car, Same Road, Same Day, Same amount of weight - 2 gallons of gas!
This car (X) takes Y seconds to reach the same X MPH with a different TUNE you would see a increase or decease in HP CORRECT?

I am giving you TPS, MPH, & RPM so you can see that both runs are made at WOT and no one is backing off the gas
I am using a computer to get an accurate time frame, you can't beat that! Oh wait that is what a Chassis Dyno uses! So WTF

I can tell you I have Tons of slower runs. That is one way to tell if you went the wrong direction

What is it that you would like to see! This is to you!
WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE?
HOW ABOUT THE DHS IN THE MID 12'S
HOW ABOUT A DYNO SHEET ON THAT CAR?
I WILL HUNT DOWN A POS DYNOJET DYNO TO THROW OUT A BIG NUMBER?

msta293412
08-11-08, 09:34 AM
Please dont make Aj angry....you wont like him when he's angry........oh no!, his eyes are turning green...and that strange sound.......

darien99
08-12-08, 11:32 AM
#1 I was waiting for this thread to happen.

#2 STS2003's early shifting pcm probably is programmed for the 3.7x final drive, I had the same problem, except I had the 3.1(2?)x shift points so my car would sit at the rev limiter until I let up. Problem is fixed now. Simple mistake.

#3 The Fastchip is awesome :thumbsup:

AJxtcman
08-12-08, 01:37 PM
#2 STS2003's early shifting pcm probably is programmed for the 3.7x final drive, I had the same problem, except I had the 3.1(2?)x shift points so my car would sit at the rev limiter until I let up. Problem is fixed now. Simple mistake.


STS2003's tune has the MAF table calculated incorrectly. I had abandoned that tune and started on a different one. I sent him out the wrong tune. He sent me another PCM and that has been CORRECTED.
He has 3.71 gears and than tune is for a 3.71 car.

Highline Cady
08-12-08, 03:21 PM
Still loving my tune AJ!!! Don't let them get you wound up, the ones that need to know, know what you are doing and understand (more or less) what it takes and how complicated this is. The best mod done to my Cady is the tune, it allows everything else to work together. By far the best mod done to my DHS, one of the many. By the way, bought drag slicks for the next time down at the track. Probably next week wednesday, barring weather, and upped the jets to a 70 & a 39 on the fuel side, 225 horse they say I figure about 175 at the wheels, runs great.

Destroyer
08-14-08, 07:15 AM
This has been tested and proven!
My tune has taken over almost a second off cars!
Proven at the track!
You don't want to listen



How exactly do you take "OVER almost a second" off the time. You either took almost a second, a second, or over a second. How does one take "over almost a second". Was the car you did that with bone stock with exception of your tune?. A full second is a serious claim, dont think there would be any issue whatsoever if the "AJ tune" took a full second off someone's 1/4 mile times. Problem is, even your most devoted followers in here are not seeing gains such as this, rather the opposite.

AJxtcman
08-14-08, 07:46 AM
How exactly do you take "OVER almost a second" off the time. You either took almost a second, a second, or over a second. How does one take "over almost a second". Was the car you did that with bone stock with exception of your tune?. A full second is a serious claim, dont think there would be any issue whatsoever if the "AJ tune" took a full second off someone's 1/4 mile times. Problem is, even your most devoted followers in here are not seeing gains such as this, rather the opposite.

We ran a 15.1 on a 100 day. We posted the time slip. The car had a Corsa Cat Back system, Volant CAI, and a set of 3.71 gears, STS 17" rims and Vogue Tyres. NO Torque Management DEVICE!

The car ran a 16.1 stock. This is what I have been told.

Now we found out that a DTS will run a 15.5 on a stock PCM WITH MY DEVICE!
The DTS has fewer miles on the engine, 3.71 gears, 17" tires, Volant CAI.

We ran a 14.6 at a Cadillac Owners Forum Midwest gathering. We added my DEVICE

Just say a 1/2 second then.

I have may Data Logs that I can pull up and look at a 0 to 93 MPH runs on Stock programs and Tuned programs. They prove over a second improvement. I know I did them, so they are NO GOOD

I WAS LOOKING UP A DYNOJET DYNO WHEN I STOPPED HERE!

I am scheduling it now!

Highline Cady
08-14-08, 04:26 PM
Yep, we made a fast one. And I still think it has been the most valuable part of the list of mods. Don't get me wrong the nitrous makes a huge difference also. But stock she turned a 16 flat at 87-88 mph, a few mods and AJ's tune down to a 15.1 on a very hot humid day. At the Cadillac show (Mid West) this year we ran 14.6's at 95 mph all day on the motor. A few weekis ago we got to the track and ran 13.8 at 105 on 125 shot. Now were running 225 shot and drag radials are coming this week or early next week. Then we'll get to the track again and I'm planning on busting into the 12's with some traction. Time will tell.

Everybody said we couldn't break 13's and we did that easily smoking the tires through 1st and most of 2nd on 18" street tires. I'm hoping she launches on these drag radials, if so, no doubt she'll rattle off something impressive. Or she'll break something. But in mostly street use and 20-30 bottles everything OK, still drive her almost every day.

Destroyer
08-15-08, 09:46 PM
Yep, we made a fast one. And I still think it has been the most valuable part of the list of mods. Don't get me wrong the nitrous makes a huge difference also. But stock she turned a 16 flat at 87-88 mph, a few mods and AJ's tune down to a 15.1 on a very hot humid day. At the Cadillac show (Mid West) this year we ran 14.6's at 95 mph all day on the motor. A few weekis ago we got to the track and ran 13.8 at 105 on 125 shot. Now were running 225 shot and drag radials are coming this week or early next week. Then we'll get to the track again and I'm planning on busting into the 12's with some traction. Time will tell.

Everybody said we couldn't break 13's and we did that easily smoking the tires through 1st and most of 2nd on 18" street tires. I'm hoping she launches on these drag radials, if so, no doubt she'll rattle off something impressive. Or she'll break something. But in mostly street use and 20-30 bottles everything OK, still drive her almost every day.What kind of times are you getting with the nitrous and without the "AJ tune"?. Try running without it, you might go faster. :alchi:

AJxtcman
08-15-08, 11:19 PM
What kind of times are you getting with the nitrous and without the "AJ tune"?. Try running without it, you might go faster. :alchi:

I would think that the Wide-Band would shut the Nitrous off and never allow it to run. We have a lean shut off on the car.

OK we have a dyno sheet on this car CORRECT?

We are headed to the dyno when I get back from Charlotte. Numbers are numbers. That is what you want CORRECT?

If my latest Tune throws out a huge Number without Nitrous on a DynoJet will we have an issue?
I mean we will be comparing them to the other dyno.

If the car runs a 12.5 then what.

I know I have it covered.

A new question for you. Who do you think I should buy my Tuned Programs from?

You are aware companies sell them?

Highline Cady
08-16-08, 12:50 AM
Destroyer,
I'm one of the biggest fans of the tune. I covered it in detail on many other threads, so I won't here. It is a whole different car with the tune. It is the single most important mod, out of the list of many, in my opinion. We've knocked a hell of allot of time off on mine. Drag radials are in the mail, we're looking at getting to the track Wednesday. And going to go to a ricer shop to use their dyno jet, at least they'll appreciate the FWD and nitrous.

darien99
08-16-08, 11:00 AM
What size DR's did you get? After bolting my 16" "winter wheels" back on, I'm considering some of these or slicks. I can't floor it in 1st gear anymore, need to feather it so it doesn't short shift into 2nd, then downshift back into 1st again....kinda hurts 1/4 mile times.
Maybe I should put my 18's back on. lol

AJxtcman
08-27-08, 02:15 PM
Goin to the track to run in the 12's today. Cross my fingers

AJxtcman
11-02-08, 08:28 AM
Goin to the track to run in the 12's today. Cross my fingers

This was a bad track day back in August. Nothing worked and Nothing worth Posting.

AJxtcman
11-02-08, 10:03 AM
I took the afternoon off on Friday and We (Highline and myself) headed to the track. Another Customer/friend met us down at Great Lakes Dragaway with his E55 AMG.

I had the Trany out on Highline's car a few weeks back to do some upgrades and preventive maintenance. I found a worn bushing in the third clutch housing and fix that also.
When I pulled the cradle down the engine rocked back on the WideBand O2 sensor. The senor must have got damaged. Highline had mention that the AFR gauge had stopped working a couple of times. We drove down to the track and the gauge was working just fine. We got to the track and it was stuck at 14.7 :(
I unplugged everything and still nothing. I sent Highline out and the N2O wouldn't stay on. :o

I jumped the relay on the protection side and sent him out again.
He ran a 15.2 :eek: No juice and ???????????

I opened the air box (the location of all the N2O controls) and found that a fuse was unplugged. I knocked it off reinstalling the air filter cone.

15.2 is way off from the 14.6 we had ran earlier this year at the Midwest Forum Meet.

Thursday was Slick night at the track so it was very sticky out on the track.

The only difference we were thinking was the tires. At Cordova we had the large 245 50 18" (27.7" OD) DTS tire and now we have 245 45 17" (25.7" OD) Nitto Drag Radials.
The 18" tire spun so WTF? Slower with the slicks hmmmmmmm
We have made a ton of 14.6 to 14.8 runs before the N2O

Well back to racing
I connected the fuse and we made a couple of runs in the 13.6 range. He was engaging the N2O late in first gear
Then the Nitrous Solenoid got some dirt in it and it stuck open and emptied the bottle on the return road. I heard it hissing when he got back.
I cleaned out the Solenoid and switch out the bottle.

I had the Nitrous Filter just before the Solenoid, but from some advice we moved it back to the Bottle. Um I don't think that was a good idea. I had it up front for a reason. Grrr. I knew it was a bad idea.


Highline headed out again and BTW he was doing some of the coolest burn outs from a FWD caddy ever.
He flipped the switch right after he got rolling. The car took off hard and I knew it was going in the 12's for sure. before the 60' line he had to shut it down
The car had so much Torque Steer it was headed for the center line (he was in the left lane) and when he picked up all the marbles and dirty when he got out of the groove the tires went up in smoke.

He made another run right away (no cool down) and ran another 13.7 :o

We let it cool down and then ran that AMG. Highline had him by 1 1/2 car lengths until he hit the rev limiter on the 1-2 shift. :(
Highline ran a 13.6 and the AMG ran its slowest time of the night 12.9. Like I said it was almost a race.

We let the car cool down and headed back out. He ran a 13.5. We were going in the right direction and it was getting cooler. The check engine light was flashing (the entire run) and we had misfires on #3 and #4. Not bad under 75 counts.

We dropped the air pressure down by 5 psi.
No more smokey burn outs. :tisk:

We ran a 13.7 :eek:

Ok we let it cool down again and headed back out. 13.7 again.
The Nitrous Solenoid piston/pintle stuck open big time. It must have a big piece of garbage in it. He said it was knocking hard when he turned off the track. he could hear the hiss so he turned off the bottle. When he fired the car back up it had a huge Nitrous back fire.
He returned to the pits and told me we were done before it breaks.

We aired the tires up and headed home.

We got talking about why we ran a 14.6 before and a 15.2 now. That is .6 of a second off. hmmmmm

Hey we didn't hard ball the rear shocks.
Is that worth .6? Not sure
Say it is worth .3 that would be a 13.2 and if it is worth .6 that would be 12.9 hmmmm

I just don't think the car can run faster than a 13.5 until I change a setting

"Label = MAX_POSITIVE_MPH_CHANGE ---- Units = MPH / Sec ---- Comments = The vehicle speed will not increase at a rate greater than this."

Hey we had a lot of fun and I saw some very smokey burn outs. It impressed the guy with the AMG.

Was it Tires or the Supension that made it run slower with out the Nitrous?

It will have to wait until the Mustang is back together. If you don't know he purchased a 2007 3800 mile POS ford. Blown head gaskets :stirpot:
He didn't know that the car had any problems.
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Bert/GT500/PIC-0010.jpg
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Bert/GT500/SecondTest3.jpg

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Bert/GT500/Test1.jpg

The ford dealer put Dye in the coolant to see wher it was going. Highline got upset and told me just to fix it.