: Any mention of an AWD CTS-V?



Radguy
07-25-08, 12:22 PM
Hello everyone, this is my first post, and I have a question.

I would LOVE to order one of these, but living in Canada, and having to deal with winters, a RWD is useless for me. Has anyone seen any mention of an AWD version coming. If so, It would be worth waiting for rather than jumping to a regular AWD CTS at the end of the year when my current lease is up.
Thanks in advance.

Jonathan

CIWS
07-25-08, 01:03 PM
The general word at release time is no. However if they do decide to offer one at some point in the future it will not be any time soon. :)

lawfive
07-25-08, 01:06 PM
^^ What Matt said.

lawfive
07-25-08, 01:06 PM
Oh, and welcome!

Radguy
07-25-08, 02:02 PM
Oh, and welcome!

Thank you, pleasure to be here!

Radguy
07-25-08, 02:07 PM
The general word at release time is no. However if they do decide to offer one at some point in the future it will not be any time soon. :)

DAMN! Looks like we'll be getting a regular CTS at the end of the year.

v84life
07-26-08, 02:06 AM
DAMN! Looks like we'll be getting a regular CTS at the end of the year.

Nothing wrong with a new CTS. It's a world class car...

Welcome to the forum:)

Radguy
07-26-08, 01:55 PM
Nothing wrong with a new CTS. It's a world class car...

Welcome to the forum:)

You're right. There's nothing wrong with the CTS. We test drove it earlier this summer (the non DI model) and we were quite impressed.

However, be that as it may, the CTS-V2 would be an outstanding car!
My summer driver is an '07 Z06. It would have been really something to get the 4 door sedan equivalent as a "WINTER BEATER"!!;)

Jpjr
07-27-08, 06:16 PM
You're right. There's nothing wrong with the CTS. We test drove it earlier this summer (the non DI model) and we were quite impressed.

However, be that as it may, the CTS-V2 would be an outstanding car!
My summer driver is an '07 Z06. It would have been really something to get the 4 door sedan equivalent as a "WINTER BEATER"!!;)

As others have said, the general epectation is NFW, and that is even more certain now that GM really has to think twice where it allocates its capital these days. I don't see them selling enough of the V2 RWD let alone AWD on purely a numbers basis so would not expect much more development.

On a side note, I grew up in MI and dealt with harsh winters in RWD my whole life. If I could plug the V2 a bit, I would say that it will be fine in the winter as long as you don't rage excessively. But I totally understand it is your preference.

Radguy
07-27-08, 07:46 PM
As others have said, the general epectation is NFW, and that is even more certain now that GM really has to think twice where it allocates its capital these days. I don't see them selling enough of the V2 RWD let alone AWD on purely a numbers basis so would not expect much more development.

On a side note, I grew up in MI and dealt with harsh winters in RWD my whole life. If I could plug the V2 a bit, I would say that it will be fine in the winter as long as you don't rage excessively. But I totally understand it is your preference.

I understand some people don't mind driving RWD in the winter.

I'm oroginally from northern Quebec. I was taught to always drive the winter with 4 dedicated snow tires. My first 2 cars were RWD Volvos. Even with the winter tires, I had a hell of a time. Swore I would never do that again. Then went to FWD with winter tires. Definitely a step up,in terms of traction. In 2000, my wife and I both bought Audis (she had the TT, I had an S4 both with Bridgestone Pole Position for summer and Nokian winter tires), and that was it for us. She won't drive anything else but AWD in the winter.

Her TT was stolen and never recovered. She went to an Escalade EXT then to a TrailblazerSS. We were looking at an Audi S6, but then tried the CTS DI AWD, which is a really nice car, and half the price of the S6.

When we first saw info regarding the upcoming CTS-V2, I'm saying to myself--- OH PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE MAKE AN AWD VERSION!!!, but never heard any mention. Sadly, from what I've seen here, it doesn't look like it's going to happen.

Jonathan

StealthV
07-28-08, 07:08 PM
Still hoping for AWD here and I'll gladly sign the clutch-isn't-covered warranty disclaimer. :)

gothicaleigh
07-29-08, 11:00 AM
-More drivetrain loss = less power to the ground.
-More unsprung weight = negative effect on all areas of performance.
-More overall weight.
-Added understeer and loss of lateral traction.
-RWD provides a more balanced weight distribution.
-RWD provides a more centered feeling and allows you to steer with the throttle.

A quicker standing start and ease of use in the wet do not make up for the weight, loss of lateral traction (understeer), and additional mechanical drag that come along with AWD.


Cadillac already makes a 304hp AWD CTS for those of you who wish to compromise the car's performance.





:stirpot:

Jpjr
07-29-08, 12:20 PM
-More drivetrain loss = less power to the ground.
-More unsprung weight = negative effect on all areas of performance.
-More overall weight.
-Added understeer and loss of lateral traction.
-RWD provides a more balanced weight distribution.
-RWD provides a more centered feeling and allows you to steer with the throttle.

A quicker standing start and ease of use in the wet do not make up for the weight, loss of lateral traction (understeer), and additional mechanical drag that come along with AWD.


Cadillac already makes a 304hp AWD CTS for those of you who wish to compromise the car's performance.





:stirpot:


Curious whether you think the AWD would comprimise performance... in northern canada... in january. Using static external conditions is not always the best way to measure performance for all buyers.

gothicaleigh
07-29-08, 01:31 PM
Curious whether you think the AWD would comprimise performance... in northern canada... in january. Using static external conditions is not always the best way to measure performance for all buyers.

3.6 DI for you. :gothiraspberry:

I live in Michigan. Our lake effect weather is legendary. In the winter, on snow ice slush and salt, AWD is nice to get going from a stop, but I prefer the predictability and balanced handling of RWD once underway.

Even with AWD, a performance sedan with a low stance, gobs of torque, and minimal amounts of room between the tire and wheelwell is not going to be a desirable winter beater.

concorso
07-29-08, 04:15 PM
Playing devil's advocate for a second...
The Audi RS4 did the 'Ring in 8:09, thats mighty impressive. That's faster then the E60 M5. The RS4 was off the M3's time by only 4 seconds! The STI and Evo also do well in the winter with low-pros and minimal clearance, although th V2's power delivery should be much more brutal. :) Either way, I highly doubt we'll see it. If GM was in better shape financially, I could see them trying this. Id bet the potential customer base is fairly small too.
Given the choice, Id have the Coupe V AWD in a heartbeat. :)

gothicaleigh
07-29-08, 06:28 PM
The Audi RS4 did the 'Ring in 8:09, thats mighty impressive. That's faster then the E60 M5.

...and slower than the exclusively RWD V2. :gothiwink:

I will concede that it is unfair to compare different cars and say that this wheel drive is better than that wheel drive though.

...but compare the same car offered in both layouts, and all else being equal, the RWD version will outperform the AWD version.


The RS4 was off the M3's time by only 4 seconds! The STI and Evo also do well in the winter with low-pros and minimal clearance, although th V2's power delivery should be much more brutal. :)

Cadillac must come in first in performance to be recognized in this class. A close second proves nothing for an american car. When every tenth counts, you don't hang an anchor around your neck.

Jpjr
07-29-08, 08:00 PM
3.6 DI for you. :gothiraspberry:

I live in Michigan. Our lake effect weather is legendary. In the winter, on snow ice slush and salt, AWD is nice to get going from a stop, but I prefer the predictability and balanced handling of RWD once underway.

Even with AWD, a performance sedan with a low stance, gobs of torque, and minimal amounts of room between the tire and wheelwell is not going to be a desirable winter beater.

I'm not arguing with you... I would not want AWD right now. But I did grow up in MI as well and could understand why someone would want a V2 and AWD in one.

Dr Chill
07-29-08, 10:12 PM
Just fork over a little more dough for a Cayenne Turbo. That will get you to your destination in a snowstorm quickly.

StealthV
07-29-08, 11:36 PM
So our opinion and purchasing dollars are wrong. Huh.

AWD > *

concorso
07-29-08, 11:48 PM
Heres a question for ya Stealth. Could GM produce an AWD for relatively cheap in terms of R&D? Is there another awd system they could build from, that could handle that kind of power/torque? Maybe something truck based?

StealthV
07-30-08, 12:04 PM
The CTS already has AWD - It's not rocket science.

gothicaleigh
07-30-08, 12:45 PM
2002:
GM Executive: We really should think about doing a full-on performance version of the CTS. Something to compete with BMW's ///M division.

V1 Engineer: Great! Firm up the suspension, larger brakes, definately a few body accents to set it apart from the base model... Hm. The Northstar won't fit, but I think we could squeeze an LS and T56 in there...

GM Executive: Wouldn't we need to also beef up the driveline? New rearend or anything like that?

V1 Engineer: Bah. The CTS already has a getrag rearend. Don't worry. Enthusiasts and tuners swap these things in all the time - It's not rocket science.




2008:
Stealth V: The CTS already has AWD - It's not rocket science.




:gothiscared:

The Tony Show
07-30-08, 01:13 PM
I think it was more like this:


2002:
GM Executive: We really should think about doing a full-on performance version of the CTS. Something to compete with BMW's ///M division.

V1 Engineer: Great! Firm up the suspension, larger brakes, definately a few body accents to set it apart from the base model... Hm. The Northstar won't fit, but I think we could squeeze an LS and T56 in there...

Other V1 Engineer: Wouldn't we need to also beef up the driveline? New rearend or anything like that?

Bean counter : Bah. The CTS already has a getrag rearend. Don't worry. Enthusiasts and tuners swap these things in all the time - It's not rocket science. Besides, it'll be cheaper just to replace the ones that break, right?




2008:
Stealth V: The CTS already has AWD - It's not rocket science.


The Challenger picture was totally uncalled for, though. Seriously.

gothicaleigh
07-30-08, 01:15 PM
I was with you all the way to the Challenger picture, Caleigh.

Totally uncalled for. Seriously.

Challenger? This is a Caddy forum.
That's a rear diff blowing out... :shifty

The Tony Show
07-30-08, 01:16 PM
:suspect:

gothicaleigh
07-30-08, 01:32 PM
:suspect:

Fine, fine. I'll remove it.












:shifty

The Tony Show
07-30-08, 01:34 PM
Thank you. :)

Radguy
07-31-08, 09:20 AM
...and slower than the exclusively RWD V2. :gothiwink:

I will concede that it is unfair to compare different cars and say that this wheel drive is better than that wheel drive though.

...but compare the same car offered in both layouts, and all else being equal, the RWD version will outperform the AWD version.



Cadillac must come in first in performance to be recognized in this class. A close second proves nothing for an american car. When every tenth counts, you don't hang an anchor around your neck.

I've been watching this thread and I finally have to give my $.02

I understand gothicaleigh's point but here's some food for thought.

Audi has just come out with their flagship sedan the RS6--V-10 twin turbo with 580HP and WAIT!-- WHAT!--- AWD!!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the winters in Germany are as bad as the ones here in the northern States and Canada.

Nissan has just come out with their flagship sports coupe the GT-R with V-6 twin turbo 480HP and WAIT!--WHAT!---AWD!!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the winters in Japan are as bad as the ones here in the northern States and Canada.

Porsche's flagship sports car the GT2 has a V-6 twin turbo with 530HP and WAIT!--WHAT!---AWD!!
Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the winters in Germany are as bad as the ones in the northern States and Canada.

In a recent issue of Car and Driver, two cars with WAIT!--WHAT!--AWD!! beat out two of America's sports cars, the Z06 and the Viper ACR--both RWD.

My point being that RWD is not a necessity for world class performance.
How can a company like Audi, that sells a million cars a year, develop the technology, and yet GM, the largest car company on the planet, that sells nine million cars a year, can't, or won't.

I also understand some people don't mind driving RWD in the winter, but the frirst time you loose traction and control of the car and end up: A. in the ditch; B. up the arse of the vehicle in front of you; C. around a tree, you'll wish you had AWD. Case in point, a neighbour a few blocks away has a CTS-V1. I asked him if he drove it in winter. "Only on days where the roads are clear, and no snow is forcast. Otherwise I have to take my SUV. It's not driveable on snow covered roads".

Thw whole point of this rant is this-- If GM wants to compete in the global market, they have to think like they're standing on the world stage--not Billy Bob's sandbox. A RWD CTS-V2 makes perfect sense to me and thank God they built it. People who own them, I'm sure will enjoy them to the Nth degree. Hovever, by not offering an AWD version, they are effectively denying ownership of this car to people in the northern States and Canada. They already have the platform for the regular CTS!!! How bloody difficult would it be to beef it up and offer it in the V???

OK, rant over. Thanks for listening.

Jonathan

P-Funk
07-31-08, 10:37 AM
In a recent issue of Car and Driver, two cars with WAIT!--WHAT!--AWD!! beat out two of America's sports cars, the Z06 and the Viper ACR--both RWD.

Jonathan

That issue is not a good argument for AWD. If you read the article, the best 2 PERFORMING cars were the American sports cars, both RWD. Reading the pros and cons and the rest of the article, it is clear that the magazine had an agenda in ranking the Nissan and then the Porche ahead of the others. They even said that they tested the Corvette with the rear wheels out of alignment and after fixing it, removed most of their negative comments about the car but did not adjust their review accordingly.

Radguy
07-31-08, 10:49 AM
That issue is not a good argument for AWD. If you read the article, the best 2 PERFORMING cars were the American sports cars, both RWD. Reading the pros and cons and the rest of the article, it is clear that the magazine had an agenda in ranking the Nissan and then the Porche ahead of the others. They even said that they tested the Corvette with the rear wheels out of alignment and after fixing it, removed most of their negative comments about the car but did not adjust their review accordingly.

It's not just about pure performance. It's about the car as a whole, but I understand that rankings in these type of comparisons have to be taken with a grain of salt. Point well taken P-Funk.

The RWD CTS-V2 is the pure performer with all the best numbers. The AWD version would be a compromise to be sure, but a whole lot less than having to go to a regular CTS if AWD was a must.

The Tony Show
07-31-08, 11:03 AM
I think most people who can afford the price of entry on the GT2, RS6, CTS-V or GT-R already have a winter beater/truck (like your friend). Considering the incredibly low ground clearance and front fascias on all those cars, I doubt you're going to see a lot of them slogging through the snow in January just because they're AWD anyway.

Those cars offer AWD simply to improve their launch ability and make them easier for amateurs to handle in the corners, NOT for max performance or winter driving.

concorso
07-31-08, 12:35 PM
The Porsche GT2 is RWD. The less powerful Turbo is AWD.

Not that it matters, but I dont want the AWD for the performance benefits. I understand that its actually detrimental, and that a V might be poor in the winter, with its low ride height, low-pros and gobs of torque.

Its easy to say there shouldn't be awd when you don't need it. Ive lived through Michigan winters and Quebec winters, among others. Michigan has it easy, comparatively. If people want to drive the V year round because they love it, is that not a legitmate 'want'? You say AWD is a compromise. For that matter, the V is a compromise. Its a ZR1 with 1000 lbs more weight and 2 extra doors. Adding power seats and a heavy stereo is a compromise. All the luxuries are compromies. Im just saying, for the people who LOVE the V and live in hilly wintery conditions, they should be allowed to complain that they can't drive it year round. :)

Audi might not be the best example anyhow. They'd probably lose most all their sales if they offered anything but quattro. Only their base a4's models are fwd, iirc.

gothicaleigh
07-31-08, 01:00 PM
The Porsche GT2 is RWD. The less powerful Turbo is AWD.
Not that it matters, but I dont want the AWD for the performance benefits. I understand that its actually detrimental, and that a V might be poor in the winter, with its low ride height, low-pros and gobs of torque.
Its easy to say there shouldn't be awd when you don't need it.


Those cars offer AWD simply to improve their launch ability and make them easier for amateurs to handle in the corners, NOT for max performance or winter driving.

Well, it sounds like we may have come to at least one consensus on this subject then.

http://www.8thdaycreations.com/images/gothicaleigh/quattroisforsissies.jpg


...and that is your top gear top tip of the day.

The Tony Show
07-31-08, 01:13 PM
Well, it sounds like we may have come to at least one consensus on this subject then.


So it seems. I think this is the second time this has happened, no? :shifty

:lol:

StealthV
07-31-08, 07:48 PM
If similar to a blown first gen V, there's more power available with V2 than two PS2 tires can transfer to the ground. My old V would spin the tires from 50 to 100 mph in 3rd gear on dry pavement in perfect weather. With similar power and the same tires, how much better will the new V be? It's only saving grace is better torque...err..."performance" management (AKA, cutting power) and everyone loves that, right?

AWD on an underpowered car = Performance hit.

AWD on a vehicle with nuclear power like a V = More effective use of available torque (traction baby).

It's all about torque and actually being able to use it.

http://neatorama.cachefly.net/images/2007-02/nuclear-bomb-badger.jpg

Don't want an AWD? Fine with me, but I still see the value and wisdom of making all four work and am willing to pay for it.

urbanski
07-31-08, 07:58 PM
Porsche's flagship sports car the GT2 has a V-6 twin turbo with 530HP and WAIT!--WHAT!---AWD!!
Correct me if I'm wrong
Jonathan

you are wrong, GT2s are RWD

CIWS
07-31-08, 08:55 PM
It's all about torque and actually being able to use it.

http://neatorama.cachefly.net/images/2007-02/nuclear-bomb-badger.jpg





Uhhh, I think your Diff just blew . .

;)

Rich H
07-31-08, 09:09 PM
AWD on a vehicle with nuclear power like a V =

http://neatorama.cachefly.net/images/2007-02/nuclear-bomb-badger.jpg



This is simply a demonstration of the build quality of the new nuke-proof V2 rear differential. If you look closely you will see the faint outline of a support tower on top of which is perched the part to be tested. Only problem is it takes a few years before the part can be retrieved and test results verified.

Radguy
08-01-08, 08:38 AM
you are wrong, GT2s are RWD

Yup, you are absolutely right. Sorry, my mistake

Radguy
08-01-08, 09:56 AM
Just to clear the air, I started this thread to simply ask a question, and not to turn this into an AWD vs RWD argument.

I'm due for a new vehicle at the end of the year, and my intention was to get a CTS AWD to replace the AWD SUV coming off lease (TrailblazerSS).

I figured if there were any forum members in the know, or if by some remote possibility, a GM insider, had heard that there were plans for one down the road, I would have refinanced the SUV for as long as it took 'cause I REALLY WANT AN AWD CTS-V2!! I personally think this would be an awesome vehicle, and hell yes I would drive it in winter!

I thought seeing as GM already has an AWD platform for the CTS, it wouldn't be difficult to modify it for the extra power, so I thought there may actually be a possibility of this happening. I included other examples of high HP AWD vehicles to point out that it's already been done.

So far, it looks like i have my answer.

Jonathan

parexa
08-01-08, 10:34 AM
I totally agree with Radguy. V2 is already so powerful that driveline power loss/added weight etc. mentioned before doesn't really mather. Scandinavian winters are probably as harsh as Canadian ones and I have to say that unfortunately theres no alternative to Audi when you want to have some winter performance with luxury. I'd so buy an AWD V2 when they made it.
Besides it doesn't feel good when a punk in an Impreza schools your 550hp+ RWD Caddy from light to light.

concorso
08-01-08, 12:32 PM
you are wrong, GT2s are RWDI beat you to it...do I get an e-cookie? :)

Radguy
08-01-08, 04:16 PM
HA! Chocolate computer chip??:thumbsup:

urbanski
08-01-08, 04:50 PM
I beat you to it...do I get an e-cookie? :)

yes.

atdeneve
08-02-08, 03:53 PM
Porsche's flagship sports car the GT2 has a V-6 twin turbo with 530HP and WAIT!--WHAT!---AWD!!
Correct me if I'm wrong
Jonathan


you are wrong, GT2s are RWD

And always have been.

The GT2s were always the most ridiculous in the Porsche line-up. They were always the most powerful and always non-awd. All that power. All of it sent solely to the rear wheels. And with all of that weight hanging behind the rear axle. Yikes!

When it comes to taking that beast to its limits, I imagine you can throw out everything you thought you knew about driving.

Bluhair
08-02-08, 05:12 PM
I have not heard anything good about the GT2. For 298K ( I realize the MSRP is 192K, but that is non-existent), you could have a F430 Scuderia. Which IMO, is a much more vibrant car than the GT2. The GT2 is a very classy looking car, but if Porsche put that motor in a Cayman, game over...

Dr Chill
08-03-08, 12:47 AM
Having driven a track prepped 400+ hp Cayman, I'd have to agree with you it would be lights out for the 911 if Porsche put a GT3 motor and coilovers in a Cayman from the factory. The Cayman is by far the best platform for a track car in the Porsche stable. You just cannot get the rear end to slide and cornering is unbelievable. It will definitely replace my current track toy when the time comes.

v84life
08-03-08, 01:16 AM
911's and Boxter/Caymen's don't have V-6's. They use a boxer 6:yup:

atdeneve
08-03-08, 01:08 PM
When they first came out, the question that invariably popped up was how badly the Cayman/Boxster would literally demolish the 911s in terms of performance, if they were given a suitable boost in engine output and some suspension work. Of course, Porsche would never allow that. That kind of chassis balance combined with a more urgent sense of power delivery would just kill 911 sales.

So, that's why you got the aftermarket marques, such as Studio Torino and Farnbacher Loles, putting out some ridiculous machinery. They see the Cayman and its untapped potential for what it really is and have no qualms about maximizing the platform to simply humiliate any 911 that comes from the factory.

Actually, I think Porsche may even provide Farnbacher Loles with the Caymans. So I'm not sure how that plays into their playbook in keeping the 911s reigning top dogs. But then again, that's aftermarket, so it's not exactly dipping directly into their 911 sales.

concorso
08-09-08, 04:47 PM
I love the Cayman...Ive only driven a base model, but even then it was very sharp, had great steering feel. I just cant get past the looks... I dont like the proportions... I still think the 997 is a better looking car.

Bluhair
08-10-08, 08:23 AM
I used to be a big Porsche fan, but have recently become disenchanted. Now with reviews of the Carrera S PDK, being just as quick as a 997TT, well....

I am glad I didn't get a Turbo.

http://www.drivers-republic.com/features/

http://viewer.zmags.co.uk/showmag.php?mid=htffs&preview=1&_x=1#/page2/

Varsity
08-23-08, 06:31 PM
Yet here in the UK at the recent London Motorshow we were told that the CTS-V would only ever be made in LHD as the engineering for the 4WD/AWD dictates that it cannot be engineered to suit RHD.

We already have a RHD 2.8 and 3.6 model here, but no AWD option.