: On the fence again on what transmission



v84life
07-17-08, 01:08 AM
Just as the title says. Having real trouble with what transmission to get. First I was diehard manual guy. Now hearing all the buz about the auto got me thinking again.:hmm: I will be putting a order in soon. Any feedback would be welcome, thanks.:cool:

DoctorV8
07-17-08, 02:08 AM
Having driven an E39 BMW M5 for years, and then switching to the much more powerful CL65 AMG.....let me tell you, I miss the stick shift in the Bimmer on the open road, but the Benz is way more livable in Houston traffic.

In the CTS-V, for me anyway....it's a no brainer....there may not be many true stick shift cars like this in the future, so it's 6 spd manual all the way.

v84life
07-17-08, 02:42 AM
This car has got me all twisted. Damn ,giving me a choice of tranny is making my stomach hurt:(

StealthV
07-19-08, 11:29 AM
Most of the Vs will have the slushbox; dare to be different.

v84life
07-19-08, 02:31 PM
What do you think the ratio will be? Waiting for something to click and then I will know what to do. :confused:

Jpjr
07-19-08, 04:32 PM
Having driven an E39 BMW M5 for years, and then switching to the much more powerful CL65 AMG.....let me tell you, I miss the stick shift in the Bimmer on the open road, but the Benz is way more livable in Houston traffic.

In the CTS-V, for me anyway....it's a no brainer....there may not be many true stick shift cars like this in the future, so it's 6 spd manual all the way.

I agree with this. For me it would be a total no-brainer except that the T-56 variant is way too clunky on my V1, and the pedal is too heavy and not aligned with the other two for proper heel-toe. (Consequently I have a '03 Cobra, CTS-V, and C5 Z06 and the Tremec sucks on all of them.)

I am cautiously optimistic that the new Tremec (right?) is a significant improvement over the old one, but still haven't driven anything from them that compares to some overseas products.

*All that said*, I will be getting the new six speed and would probably get it even if it were the exact same setup. Just because I call em like I see em does not mean I don't enjoy rowing in the V1, and slush will be an endagered species pretty soon on lux perf sedans...

v84life
07-20-08, 02:04 AM
I agree with this. For me it would be a total no-brainer except that the T-56 variant is way too clunky on my V1, and the pedal is too heavy and not aligned with the other two for proper heel-toe. (Consequently I have a '03 Cobra, CTS-V, and C5 Z06 and the Tremec sucks on all of them.)

I am cautiously optimistic that the new Tremec (right?) is a significant improvement over the old one, but still haven't driven anything from them that compares to some overseas products.

*All that said*, I will be getting the new six speed and would probably get it even if it were the exact same setup. Just because I call em like I see em does not mean I don't enjoy rowing in the V1, and slush will be an endagered species pretty soon on lux perf sedans...

Don't you mean the manual will be endangered:bonkers:

HiTechRV
07-20-08, 01:29 PM
The automatic beat the manual on Nurbergring. I'm probably going the automatic route though I want to see what the car magazine test drives say. I want which ever is quicker. I do think you need to get the manual though to achieve drag-limited top speed on an unflashed car.

Jpjr
07-20-08, 02:28 PM
Don't you mean the manual will be endangered:bonkers:

duh yes that is exactly what i meant. sorry!

lawfive
07-20-08, 02:42 PM
Don't worry about the limiter because it won't be a factor within less than a year after the first production car is sold. :stealthv: Just don't overdo it at higher speeds because there's a reason the auto is limited.

Or, don't worry about the limiter because most U.S. owners don't get their vehicle up over 100 mph anyway.

For me, it boils down this way:

I always want to go fast, but I don't always want to shift. I don't get a big charge just from shifting. I don't track the car. So the manual only makes driving more fun when I'm in some serious twisties. Which is sort of seldom. As Pilgrim said and Heinricy proved the 6L90 can handle the shifting better than most drivers would with a manual (that's gotta include me). That said: the manual in Heinricy's hands would have done better than 7:59:32 since Heinricy bumped up against 175 MPH in fifth gear on his run.

Shifting during normal driving is second nature and I usually don't really even think about it. However my V is my daily driver and I spend most of that time on straight freeways with a lot of traffic and city streets with a stop sign or a signal (and often a hill) on every block. So I wind up having to think about shifting in stop-and-go traffic when I'm doing it too much (I don't like to lug) and my left leg starts to fatigue, or when my right hand is too busy to grab and hold the coffee.

If you are a guy who just really likes shifting a manual and thinks it adds to the experience, get the manual. If you are a guy who is better technically at shifting during hard driving than 90% of other drivers, and if that matters to you, get the manual. Otherwise, the automatic.

lawfive
07-20-08, 02:45 PM
Oh, and I suppose the manual will potentially get better gas mileage, too. But probably not in our hands.

v84life
07-20-08, 06:01 PM
Thanks lawfive for your input. I'm not worried about top speed so the limiter means nothing but bragging rights. Driving pleasure=manual. Practicality=auto
Going to have to make a pro con list. I never thought it was going to be this tough on transmission choice.

Thanks again for all the feedback:)

Dr Chill
07-20-08, 06:29 PM
From what I hear from friends with C6 Z06's, the TR6060 performs very similarly to the T-56. I definitely like the T-56 in my C5 Z06, but it is the RPM Level 5 variety with cooler.

One reason to get a Slushbox may be due to the better resale potential since it has a broader appeal. My V will be a slushbox because that's what the boss wants. Afterall, it's her car.

Jpjr
07-20-08, 08:54 PM
From what I hear from friends with C6 Z06's, the TR6060 performs very similarly to the T-56. I definitely like the T-56 in my C5 Z06, but it is the RPM Level 5 variety with cooler.

One reason to get a Slushbox may be due to the better resale potential since it has a broader appeal. My V will be a slushbox because that's what the boss wants. Afterall, it's her car.

I guess the resale would have to more than compensate the extra cost of slush, presuming the auto is an option. Not sure retail would be affected in this type of car though but point taken.

I hate driving my V1 in the city, it really really sucks after a while in stop and go, but the coolness factor generally makes up for it. People that ride in my car can't get over seeing a 6 speed in a Caddy.

..plus the obvious fun factor of driving a stick when you are not in stop and go which is not often.

lawfive
07-20-08, 09:10 PM
which is not often
... except maybe in Los Angeles and San Francisco. :o

Dr Chill
07-20-08, 10:24 PM
Extra cost of automatic is more than offset by cost of clutch replacement.

Rich H
07-20-08, 10:41 PM
From what I hear from friends with C6 Z06's, the TR6060 performs very similarly to the T-56.

I will not consider buying a V2 until I test drive it. I have plans strictly for the manual. If the manual tranny performs in similar fashion to the T-56 in my 04 V I will not buy a V2. It's that simple. A clean shifting transmission without the bugs I've had to deal with is paramount in my decision so I hope Cadillac gets it right this time.

Dr Chill
07-20-08, 11:11 PM
I will not consider buying a V2 until I test drive it. I have plans strictly for the manual. If the manual tranny performs in similar fashion to the T-56 in my 04 V I will not buy a V2. It's that simple. A clean shifting transmission without the bugs I've had to deal with is paramount in my decision so I hope Cadillac gets it right this time.

Differences between T-56 and TR6060:

Changes for TR6060 include wider gears for increased torque capacity, higher-capacity synchronizers, finer splines and machined teeth for the dog clutches, and new single-piece shift forks. For increased stiffness at the front of the transmission, the oil-circulating pump has been moved inside the case and its flow rate has been increased by 15%. Various ribs, reinforcements, and flange thicknesses are increased, and the countershaft is a new, more robust single-piece design. Differential ring and pinion gears are now shot-peened twice for enhanced durability, and the span between their support bearings has been increased. All said an done, over 90% of the components are altered from the T56 transmission. There was also a 10% reduction in motion and effort.

That being said, the TR6060 is stronger and more durable but when cold is a bit hard to shift and occasionally grinds through 1-2-3. There's a lot of feedback on corvetteforum.com. As I said, I like the T-56 and think it is an excellent tranny, but I use a B&M short throw shifter which is a great improvement over stock in the Vette. The TR6060 should perform similarly. Possibly a better shifter would impact your opinion.

lawfive
07-20-08, 11:13 PM
From what I've heard, they have gotten it right this time. Short throw, less play, better pedal feel.

v84life
07-21-08, 01:34 AM
A little better that the V1 , I can deal with. A lot better could make my decision click. If it is no better than V1 then I'll go slush. Hope there is feed back and test drives in the next 2 months that's when my order is being processed. Delivery is based on my lease return. I can't f in wait for this car. I feel like a kid waiting for christmas:lildevil:

CIWS
07-21-08, 09:25 AM
Something I didn't consider until after I got the CTS-V was what I would do if I broke or seriously injured a leg or my right arm and this was my only car and D.D. I would have had to rent a car that was an auto for 6-8 weeks until I healed or bought another vehicle that was an auto. I more than likely will not own a 6 speed again until I decide it's time to own two vehicles.

chris1268
07-21-08, 11:55 AM
Something I didn't consider until after I got the CTS-V was what I would do if I broke or seriously injured a leg or my right arm and this was my only car and D.D. I would have had to rent a car that was an auto for 6-8 weeks until I healed or bought another vehicle that was an auto. I more than likely will not own a 6 speed again until I decide it's time to own two vehicles.



Not that is a great point......Just happened to me 2 weeks ago. Broke my hand and have been in a work loaner since then. Today was actually the first day back in the car and shifting is not fun. That is what switched my decision to auto too.

atdeneve
07-21-08, 01:05 PM
Don't worry about the limiter because it won't be a factor within less than a year after the first production car is sold. :stealthv: Just don't overdo it at higher speeds because there's a reason the auto is limited.

Or, don't worry about the limiter because most U.S. owners don't get their vehicle up over 100 mph anyway .

For me, it boils down this way:

I always want to go fast, but I don't always want to shift. I don't get a big charge just from shifting. I don't track the car. So the manual only makes driving more fun when I'm in some serious twisties. Which is sort of seldom. As Pilgrim said and Heinricy proved the 6L90 can handle the shifting better than most drivers would with a manual (that's gotta include me). That said: the manual in Heinricy's hands would have done better than 7:59:32 since Heinricy bumped up against 175 MPH in fifth gear on his run.

Shifting during normal driving is second nature and I usually don't really even think about it. However my V is my daily driver and I spend most of that time on straight freeways with a lot of traffic and city streets with a stop sign or a signal (and often a hill) on every block. So I wind up having to think about shifting in stop-and-go traffic when I'm doing it too much (I don't like to lug) and my left leg starts to fatigue, or when my right hand is too busy to grab and hold the coffee.

If you are a guy who just really likes shifting a manual and thinks it adds to the experience, get the manual. If you are a guy who is better technically at shifting during hard driving than 90% of other drivers, and if that matters to you, get the manual. Otherwise, the automatic.

I don't think the automatic is governor limited. It's limited by gearing. It reaches top speed (175mph) at redline in 5th and doesn't pull in it's tall 6th gear.

Interestingly enough, the manual wouldn't necessarily pull a faster time just because the automatic bumped up against its 175 mph top speed. He wasn't really just sittin at that top speed. The gearing in the automatic was such that Heinricy noted that he hit redline in 5th, at the end of the long straight, just as he was entering the brake zone. So he really wouldn't have been able to go any higher, even if the automatic had more top end in it.

Whether the manual, due to its different gearing, would have had faster top end acceleration and attained a higher speed on that long straight is an interesting question though.

lawfive
07-21-08, 03:24 PM
I don't think the automatic is governor limited. It's limited by gearing. It reaches top speed (175mph) at redline in 5th and doesn't pull in it's tall 6th gear.


You might be right; I didn't think to ask anybody that I ran into from Cadillac. All I know is what I've read from sources that have been wrong before:


But more power is not, you know, strictly necessary, since this car will sprint to 60 mph in 3.9 seconds, run the quarter-mile in around 12 seconds, and get all the way to 191 mph. (Cars optioned with the six-speed automatic instead of the manual transmission are limited to 175 mph.) Even at a hefty curb weight estimated to be 4,300 pounds, the CTS-V rocks the best power-to-weight ratio in its class. And this engine also punches out 551 pound-feet of torque at 3,800 rpm.

Bet I know who can tell us for sure. "Paging Tony..."

lawfive
07-21-08, 03:26 PM
And on second read, they may be using the term "limited" to mean that's where it gives out, rather than that's where an electronic limiter kicks in.

Cadillac Tony
07-21-08, 08:56 PM
It's limited by the gearing, not electronics.

lawfive
07-21-08, 10:36 PM
kthx tts

Kidhummer
07-21-08, 11:07 PM
It's limited by the gearing, not electronics.

What if we put the same gears as in the manual and add more hp? Would the car accelerate to 191 as fast as the manual?

HiTechRV
07-21-08, 11:25 PM
The car mags call that drag limited.

Cadillac Tony
07-22-08, 01:58 PM
What if we put the same gears as in the manual and add more hp? Would the car accelerate to 191 as fast as the manual?

They both have a 3.73 gears in the diff- it's the gearing in the transmission that's different. I doubt there's too many people who'd be willing to rip open a brand new 6L90 and try to change the gear ratios.

I know we're only talking about this because the tests haven't hit the mags yet and we're bored, but this is really a non-issue. The 04-07 CTS-Vs were limited at 163, and only a handful of people have ever been brave/stupid enough to hit that on a public road.

Other than making a cool YouTube vid, I can't think of a reason I need any more than 175 out of a street car.

HiTechRV
07-22-08, 10:22 PM
One word - Autobahn. :-) Of course most of the locals over there are governed to 155 or so. 175 would be plenty to embarass them.

I'd actually go the other way - a 4.11 or steeper gear custom built to get more acceleration, sacraficing some top speed and MPG. I'd really have no need for it to top out above 140.

StealthV
07-22-08, 11:43 PM
They both have a 3.73 gears in the diff

Is there a typo on the official V website? It shows final drive ratios as:

TR6060 manual = 3.73:1
6L90E automatic = 3.23:1

Where's my Cadillac trinket FTW? :)

v84life
07-23-08, 01:00 AM
Is there a typo on the official V website? It shows final drive ratios as:

TR6060 manual = 3.73:1
6L90E automatic = 3.23:1

Where's my Cadillac trinket FTW? :)

Beat me to it...:p

Cadillac Tony
07-23-08, 10:24 AM
Blarg- that's what I get for popping in and posting too quickly in-between customers- the Auto has a 3.23, not a 3.73. :hide: :doh:

Kidhummer
07-23-08, 12:12 PM
so then comes my question again..what if we put in a 3.73 and add hp..lol

StealthV
07-23-08, 10:35 PM
A 3.73:1 final drive ratio in a automatic V would be a very nice performance upgrade, with the fuel economy trade-off of course, that doesn't push the envelope of craziness in the mod world as it is a proven factory piece. The ratio in changing the rear ratio (ha!) provides a 15% gain in torque to the rear wheels.

The 3.73:1 gear swap would be a stealthy mod except for the need to reprogram the transmission to send the right MPH signal to the speedometer. There's that ol' flashing software and screwing with the warranty thing again.

Hmm...Just thought of a way to make the speedo correct without big brother knowing. :canttalk:

StealthV
07-23-08, 10:39 PM
Now if somone would only make a nice 4.10:1 gear set set for the manual V.

Damn the MPG, it's all about torque multiplication! :lildevil:

v84life
07-24-08, 01:34 AM
Now if somone would only make a nice 4.10:1 gear set set for the manual V.

Damn the MPG, it's all about torque multiplication! :lildevil:

So you have chosen the manual, final answer......? Using all this feedback to confirm my own choice, hence the thread question. THIS CAR is going to kick azz. :worship:

Kidhummer
07-24-08, 12:21 PM
A 3.73:1 final drive ratio in a automatic V would be a very nice performance upgrade, with the fuel economy trade-off of course, that doesn't push the envelope of craziness in the mod world as it is a proven factory piece. The ratio in changing the rear ratio (ha!) provides a 15% gain in torque to the rear wheels.

The 3.73:1 gear swap would be a stealthy mod except for the need to reprogram the transmission to send the right MPH signal to the speedometer. There's that ol' flashing software and screwing with the warranty thing again.

Hmm...Just thought of a way to make the speedo correct without big brother knowing. :canttalk:

I hope you have some good software for the car ; )

Jpjr
07-24-08, 01:38 PM
A 3.73:1 final drive ratio in a automatic V would be a very nice performance upgrade, with the fuel economy trade-off of course, that doesn't push the envelope of craziness in the mod world as it is a proven factory piece. The ratio in changing the rear ratio (ha!) provides a 15% gain in torque to the rear wheels.

The 3.73:1 gear swap would be a stealthy mod except for the need to reprogram the transmission to send the right MPH signal to the speedometer. There's that ol' flashing software and screwing with the warranty thing again.

Hmm...Just thought of a way to make the speedo correct without big brother knowing. :canttalk:


Change the diff gears and resize your rear wheels?
:)

Silverspeed
07-24-08, 07:54 PM
A 3.73:1 final drive ratio in a automatic V would be a very nice performance upgrade, with the fuel economy trade-off of course, that doesn't push the envelope of craziness in the mod world as it is a proven factory piece. The ratio in changing the rear ratio (ha!) provides a 15% gain in torque to the rear wheels.

The 3.73:1 gear swap would be a stealthy mod except for the need to reprogram the transmission to send the right MPH signal to the speedometer. There's that ol' flashing software and screwing with the warranty thing again.

Hmm...Just thought of a way to make the speedo correct without big brother knowing. :canttalk:

I think a 3.73 would be way too much gear. The transmission has the exact same ratio's as the A6 in the C6 Vette, and in the LS3 cars a 2.73 is considered a performance factory option over the base 2.56. Most of the aftermarket guys go with 3.15's and 3.42's are the most anyone has ever put in an A6 equipped vette( at least that I've read about). A 3.23 with the standard trans gear ratios is already a very strongly geared car. I was honestly shocked when I saw the trans was the same as the C6(ratios) and they were putting 3.23's out back. I would imagine that 3.73's and 550ft./lbs with those trans ratios would make 1st gear useless. Probably much of second as well. Don't have time to do the numbers but I'd be willing to bet that 3.73's in an A6 would be the equvilent of 4.90's in the manual when it comes to final drive ratio. Maybe someone can run the numbers?

StealthV
07-24-08, 08:57 PM
Practical or smart should never factor into modifying a V.

Is it time to go home yet?

HiTechRV
07-25-08, 12:29 AM
If you resized the wheels and tires so that the speedo were right, you would have no performance increase. Now you might be able to lie to the ECU through a tech 2 about tire diameter....

Silverspeed
07-25-08, 04:30 AM
FYI for first gear, running 3.73's in the A6 gives a overall ratio of 14.99. To have the same overall ratio in the MN6 you would need a 5.64 gear set. lol

Factory stock the A6 car is already has stronger overall gearing in the first three gears than the MN6, especially in first and second, with the MN6 surpassing it in fourth. I would venture to say from a dig the A6 car will pull away from the MN6 only to get caught later in the run if driven properly. From a highway roll at 80+ the MN6 should walk the A6 since the very slight gearing advantage in 3rd won't overcome it's rwhp disadvantage.

Bench racing at it's best. :)

Overall gear ratios by trans type:

A6 with 3.23..............MN6 with 3.73.......A6 with 3.73............MN6 with 4.10

1: 12.98...................1. 9.92................1. 14.99..................1. 10.91
2: 7.62....................2. 6.64................2. 8.80....................2. 7.30
3: 4.94....................3. 4.85................3. 5.71....................3. 5.33
4: 3.71....................4. 3.73................4. 4.29....................4. 4.10

lawfive
07-25-08, 01:10 PM
Practical or smart should never factor into modifying a V.

Blitzer!! Where you been, man? And... when did you learn to type?

Kidhummer
07-25-08, 10:49 PM
FYI for first gear, running 3.73's in the A6 gives a overall ratio of 14.99. To have the same overall ratio in the MN6 you would need a 5.64 gear set. lol

Factory stock the A6 car is already has stronger overall gearing in the first three gears than the MN6, especially in first and second, with the MN6 surpassing it in fourth. I would venture to say from a dig the A6 car will pull away from the MN6 only to get caught later in the run if driven properly. From a highway roll at 80+ the MN6 should walk the A6 since the very slight gearing advantage in 3rd won't overcome it's rwhp disadvantage.

Bench racing at it's best. :)

Overall gear ratios by trans type:

A6 with 3.23..............MN6 with 3.73.......A6 with 3.73............MN6 with 4.10

1: 12.98...................1. 9.92................1. 14.99..................1. 10.91
2: 7.62....................2. 6.64................2. 8.80....................2. 7.30
3: 4.94....................3. 4.85................3. 5.71....................3. 5.33
4: 3.71....................4. 3.73................4. 4.29....................4. 4.10

Lets get the MPH now

Silverspeed
07-26-08, 12:43 AM
Lets get the MPH now

What's the OD of the tire?

NormV
07-26-08, 01:30 AM
Another variable, one we don't know and might not be able to compute, is what torque specs are. I am betting with the engine torque and car weight the torque converter will be on the tight side. A tighter 'verter will lower heat and might be able to get away with towing.


Norm

v84life
07-26-08, 01:57 AM
Another small variable is the weight difference of 100lbs...:)

v84life
07-26-08, 02:00 AM
Towing:hmm:

Silverspeed
07-26-08, 02:18 AM
Lets get the MPH now

Here they are. If Iknew the exact OD of the tire I could get them exact, but I plugged this into a calculator using the tire size of 285/35/19. Different manufacturer's have different OD's with the same size tire. Guess I could have looked on tire rack, but this is close enough. In MPH...

A6/3.23...........MN6/3.73.............A6/3.73..........MN6/4.10

1. 38...............1. 50...................1. 33...............1. 45
2. 65...............2. 75...................2. 56...............2. 68
3. 100.............3. 102.................3. 87...............3. 93
4. 133.............4. 133.................4. 115.............4. 121

NormV
07-26-08, 12:33 PM
Towing:hmm:

Uh huh!

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2004/116961-cts-v-travel-trailer.html

Norm

Kidhummer
07-26-08, 12:45 PM
Here they are. If Iknew the exact OD of the tire I could get them exact, but I plugged this into a calculator using the tire size of 285/35/19. Different manufacturer's have different OD's with the same size tire. Guess I could have looked on tire rack, but this is close enough. In MPH...

A6/3.23...........MN6/3.73.............A6/3.73..........MN6/4.10

1. 38...............1. 50...................1. 33...............1. 45
2. 65...............2. 75...................2. 56...............2. 68
3. 100.............3. 102.................3. 87...............3. 93
4. 133.............4. 133.................4. 115.............4. 121

interesting #'s