: purchasing factors



Ralph
06-04-03, 03:15 AM
Our determining factor is SAFETY, which everyone seems to think the government or some magical force is watching over it for us. Mine are Safety, reliability, ergonomics, appearance and cost to run. in that order. For example, my friend with a Cavalier now knows his car is only 1 star for side-impact!! He does not care. (based on the NHTSA website) There is a high to severe chance of being crippled in this car. Now, in North America, they said on the news that they may not crash test independantly anymore! When they start doing this, you can bet that car companies will cut even more corners on safety to save more profit. I think people need to be concerned about how safe their car is!

HotRodSaint
06-04-03, 08:53 AM
Originally posted by Ralph
Now, in North America, they said on the news that they may not crash test independantly anymore! When they start doing this, you can bet that car companies will cut even more corners on safety to save more profit.

How much is the bet?;)

Side impact airbags increase cost now, but are not mandated buy the NHTSA. So they would be non-existant if car companies where evil corporations killing people to make an extra dollar.

Saftey sells. You just stated it as a priority. Do you think you are the only consumer who does? What sells, is what they make. Plus, they don't want the Governement stepping in and mandating flawed technology, so they leap frog them and do it first.

Ralph
06-05-03, 02:49 AM
Originally posted by HotRodSaint
How much is the bet?;)

Side impact airbags increase cost now, but are not mandated buy the NHTSA. So they would be non-existant if car companies where evil corporations killing people to make an extra dollar.

Saftey sells. You just stated it as a priority. Do you think you are the only consumer who does? What sells, is what they make. Plus, they don't want the Governement stepping in and mandating flawed technology, so they leap frog them and do it first.

As for car companies being "evil corporations killing people" well there are more than enough lawsuits on the subject. Case in point, Ford Pinto, we studied this one in economics class, even though I am a Clinical Counsellor, Ford Knew that placing a part in each Pinto for a total cost of 75 cents per vehicle would save lives! Even their own testing confirmed this! They went ahead without it and the end result is it was cheaper to have people die and then sue in court than spend the 75 cents!

Case in point: Chevy half ton's from 1974-'79, (this one is from memory) something about the gas tank not being within the frame and during a side impact, KABOOM. It happens. Once again, cheaper to have people in court for ten years, 'cause many give up, or go broke in the process trying to get some justice.

Case in point: GM X-car (we own one) During a sudden braking action, some cars went into a violent spin because of locking rear brakes. GM just settled this one a few years ago I believe. Some people were killed.

I used to work for a security company and they laid people off because it was cheaper to have one person robbed or killed (the chance of it) than have more guards protected loading a money machine!

So no, I don't really trust any company, they are a business after all and out for the almighty dollar. I do believe in continued independant testing by all safety organizations out there, including the government, it keeps them straight. IMO.

Safety does sell, to me, and I WAS the only person, so far, to mention it. I really don't think many people care about safety, they want to have fun driving and look good. Well we should be safe as well. PS I was in a bad car accident and I am glad I was in a heavy car, but thats another story for another time..:)

HotRodSaint
06-05-03, 08:45 AM
Originally posted by Ralph
As for car companies being "evil corporations killing people" well there are more than enough lawsuits on the subject.

Attitudes have changed since these '70's examples you gave. Why do you think these company not only try to get 4 or more stars, but make a big public stink about it when they get less than that?

It is probably the bad publicity of those past law suits that have 'forced' them into this position. It might be the public that has become more aware of these issues that is keeping these companies honest.

HotRodSaint
06-05-03, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by Ralph
Case in point: Chevy half ton's from 1974-'79, (this one is from memory) something about the gas tank not being within the frame and during a side impact, KABOOM. It happens. Once again, cheaper to have people in court for ten years, 'cause many give up, or go broke in the process trying to get some justice.

Actually I think GM's argument in this one was that the vehicle met all Federal safety standards at the time. They just weren't ready to accept liablity for following the laws. So indirectly, they were inferring that the Fed's had no clue about saftey.

JEM
06-06-03, 03:06 AM
Yes, okay, it's not a perfect place for a gas tank, but statistically those trucks have no worse a record than anyone else's.

And, of course, GM showed some backbone when it came to the TV show '20/20' rigging one to explode with a model rocket engine - they hit the network over the head with a few lawyers until they (the network, not the lawyers) said 'Uncle'.

They learned from the jobbing that '60 Minutes' gave Audi over the whole 'unintended acceleration' crap - wherein a car was shown to jump forward when shifted into gear, but what WASN'T said was that the transmission had been specifically modified to make it do that, and that what was being demonstrated could never happen with a production-model Audi transmission. CBS should have been hauled into court and made to grab their corporate ankles over that one.

HotRodSaint
06-06-03, 09:11 AM
Originally posted by JEM
Yes, okay, it's not a perfect place for a gas tank, but statistically those trucks have no worse a record than anyone else's.

And, of course, GM showed some backbone when it came to the TV show '20/20' rigging one to explode with a model rocket engine - they hit the network over the head with a few lawyers until they (the network, not the lawyers) said 'Uncle'.

They learned from the jobbing that '60 Minutes' gave Audi over the whole 'unintended acceleration' crap - wherein a car was shown to jump forward when shifted into gear, but what WASN'T said was that the transmission had been specifically modified to make it do that, and that what was being demonstrated could never happen with a production-model Audi transmission. CBS should have been hauled into court and made to grab their corporate ankles over that one.

Yea, good old 60 Minutes. I forgot about that trickery.

CadillacDan
06-06-03, 03:45 PM
Ralph,

You bring good points, but now a days, people like to sue big corporations, and get away with it. Juries usually side with people and not corporations. Anyway, that one life now could be worth billions. Case in point, the tobacco fiasco.

Ralph
06-07-03, 03:35 AM
Originally posted by CadillacDan
Ralph,

You bring good points, but now a days, people like to sue big corporations, and get away with it. Juries usually side with people and not corporations. Anyway, that one life now could be worth billions. Case in point, the tobacco fiasco.

I know, in 1980 my dad died of lung cancer, back then no one even thought of sueing, especially in Canada!:banghead:

HotRodSaint
06-07-03, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by Ralph
I know, in 1980 my dad died of lung cancer, back then no one even thought of sueing, especially in Canada!:banghead:

Sorry to hear that.

My grandmother was diagnosed with lung cancer and was told by the doctor to stop smoking. But she didn't. She 'enjoyed' smoking until her last breath.

No one in our family considered, or even mentioned, suing anyone. That's the way she raised us. She beleived that adults are responsible for their own actions.

We have been informed of the health risks of smoking for many, many years. It's our responsibility to use the information provided wisely or else face the consequences.

No one is to blame for my grandmothers death, but her.

the Sandman
06-07-03, 09:57 AM
Although personally I agree with much of what HotRod says, it is beneficial to examine both sides of the argument. The tobacco industry has for many years made untold billions of dollars off of the (eventual) suffering of it's customers. Smoking and chewing have long been glamorized and marketed to children and young adults. The extreme addictiveness of these poisons is not advertised however, and by the time most users determine they have a nasty, unhealthy habit which they want to kick they find they cannot. Big Tobacco had internal knowledge of the health hazards for a long, long time which was covered up, than denied. The cost (in dollars, not to mention human suffering) to society in health care costs, work days lost, accidents (fires, car wrecks, etc.) is staggering.

Longtime smokers from generations before ours had no clue they were slowly killing themselves until it was too late.

Tobacco is one of the few (maybe only) legal products that is addictive and inherently dangerous to human life when used as intended.

HotRodSaint
06-07-03, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by the Sandman
(This thread should be split off BTW).

Tobacco is one of the few (maybe only) legal products that is addictive and inherently dangerous to human life when used as intended.

Which means logically that our governments should be held financially responsible in any lawsuits since they continue to allow this product to be sold despite the well documented health risks.

But then our modern world isn't very logical, is it?

the Sandman
06-07-03, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by HotRodSaint
Which means logically that our governments should be held financially responsible in any lawsuits since they continue to allow this product to be sold despite the well documented health risks.

But then our modern world isn't very logical, is it? Ahh, but remember "our government" is...us! We are a democratic, capitalistic society with a leadership we elect. The fact that tobacco is still tolerated at all shows how strong the Tobacco Lobby and smokers still are. And of course there is still the issue of free will in our free society. But then again, look at the strides that have been made - who would have imagined 20 years ago that most public places would be smoke free, that Big Tobacco would lose lawsuits, and that the anti-smoking campaigns would have become so pervasive?

For better or worse, major changes in the behavior of our society take a long time, measured in generations, not years.

Elvis
06-07-03, 04:09 PM
Safety: Yet another reason I want a DeVille...

03EscaladeAWD
06-07-03, 11:43 PM
Has anyone ever hit the curb while going 50+ in a low car? I remember hitting it with the jeep, didn't feel too good. Thats about the only safety advantage SUVs have over cars. They can run over unexpected things in the road. (or go off it :D)

kempie
06-08-03, 12:20 AM
Cars are SO much safer now than ever before and people keep getting killed in car wrecks. When your # is up its time to go. It may be the side impact that takes you out or your air bag could break your neck.
All you can do is buy the safest car you can afford and drive it FAST. That way you will be gone before the accident happens.
My grandmother died 20 yrs. ago at age 88. She smoked, although that didnt kill her. She would say, as she lit her cig. "Heres another nail in my coffin."
Regardless of what the cig. cos. said anyone with half a brain knew that cigs. were not good for them. Do something stupid and then blaim someone else for your stuipdity. That seems to be the new "American Way". Where in the hell has the notion that we are responsible for our own actions gone? This "feel good" society has created a real bunch of whiners that are willing to give up their freedom of choice for the protection of govt. from themselves.
OK enough of that...Break time...Smoke em if you got em.

elwesso
06-08-03, 12:54 AM
Sounds like you had some steam to blow off.........

kcnewell
06-08-03, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by kempie
Where in the hell has the notion that we are responsible for our own actions gone? This "feel good" society has created a real bunch of whiners that are willing to give up their freedom of choice for the protection of govt. from themselves.
OK enough of that...Break time...Smoke em if you got em.


Well said! My Dad died of lung cancer in '94. All my life I remember him saying tht he was lighting up another coffin nail....He was and he knew it! Nice thing about him was he was smart enough to take personal responsibility for it. No sniveling about not being told that it would make him sick!

Ralph
06-08-03, 01:49 AM
Also, don't forget that occasionally they show clips on tv of doctors smoking in the 1950's and '60's! It was politically correct and the social thing to do on certain occasions, still is. There is debate up here that if you smoke and get emphesema, or lung cancer, you should not get health coverage, because it raises the taxes for all the non-smokers as well. Did you know that a cigarette has 400 carcinogens when not lit, and 4,000 when lit! I wonder how many auto accidents have been caused by someone dropping a cig and reaching for it while driving!? Have you noticed that some cars like Chryslers don't even have ashtrays and lighters now, they make you order them as an option. I wonder if this means more people are not smoking and they are gearing toward the majority?

HotRodSaint
06-08-03, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by 03EscaladeAWD
They can run over unexpected things in the road. (or go off it :D)

Or they can roll over a few times before they go off the road.:banana:

BUILDINGCTSAMG
06-08-03, 12:06 PM
Yeah my cadillac cts didnt come with an ahstray or a lighter and if you wanted one you had to wait 2-3 weeks for them to order you one! I dont smoke but my dad and some of my friends do...the nice thing is without an ashtray or lighter people feel bad about smoking in it!

kempie
06-08-03, 05:42 PM
Obesiety causes as much or more time off work due to health problems than smokeing.
I would like to see how our nieghbors to the north handle that problem.
Ever notice how some hospitals make their employees go out on the curb, off hospital property, to have a cig. If it were really for healths sake and not just being PC they would make the fat asses eat their pie on the curb also.
What do you think, should we ban or just heavily tax "all you can eat buffets"?

kcnewell
06-08-03, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by kempie
.
What do you think, should we ban or just heavily tax "all you can eat buffets"?

I say...." Mind your own business and let other people do to themselves what they want! " We spend far too much time in this country trying to make our neighbors behave as we think they should....I don't care if you Smoke, Drink, Eat too much, Walk around your house naked with the drapes open or whatever YOU want to do. It isn't nor should I try to make it my business!

Elvis
06-08-03, 07:23 PM
I gave up cigarettes on 12/31/96. Never looked back. I smoked about 30 a day, sometimes more. Unfortunately, about six months later I took these things up:

http://www.smokes-spirits.com/SmokesWeb/images/products/back_blk.jpg

I only smoke 4 or 5 of them a day. It's probably just as bad, if not worse as 30-40 cigarettes were. I'm gearing up to quit again. My father is 63 and won't quit. I hope I can inspire him with my new workout regimen that I've started.

Everyone in my family smoked. Mom went cold turkey on 7/4/85. Hasn't had one since.

One grandfather died an invalid, a combination of arthritis and a barely functioning ticker. One grandmother died of emphysema, the other had a massive coronary, and she had quit at least 10 years earlier. The other grandfather had lung cancer, and had quit smoking 25 years earlier because he had throat cancer.

Nicotine has got to be the most addictive drug on the market. If suing tobacco companies and regulating and taxing them so heavily helps to prevent future generations from dying that slow death, so be it. I wish that I had had a few more years with my grandparents. Three of the four were gone before I was 21.

I wish I had never started. [/end sermon]

HotRodSaint
06-08-03, 09:37 PM
Originally posted by kcnewell
I say...." Mind your own business and let other people do to themselves what they want! "

So are you saying that crack cocaine and heroine should be legalized?

the Sandman
06-08-03, 10:36 PM
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. To me, this passage from the Declaration of Independence doesn't mean we have a "right" to do whatever we want. It means we have the right to lead a free and happy life, characterized by well-being and contentment and equal with that of all other citizens. It is the function of the Government we elect to determine the course of society while securing our rights. People should not make the mistake of thinking their actions do not affect the rest of the society, because often they do. The "rights" of the individual must be taken in context with the "needs" of the society as a whole.

Please keep the drapes closed when walking around naked in the house.

Ralph
06-09-03, 02:04 AM
Originally posted by kempie
Obesiety causes as much or more time off work due to health problems than smokeing.
I would like to see how our nieghbors to the north handle that problem.
Ever notice how some hospitals make their employees go out on the curb, off hospital property, to have a cig. If it were really for healths sake and not just being PC they would make the fat asses eat their pie on the curb also.
What do you think, should we ban or just heavily tax "all you can eat buffets"?

If you are implying we have more obesity up here, possibly due to winter months, you are correct! 50% (literally) of Canadians are obese and I know it is due to the weather. This silly country is "handeling" it very badly! We used to have government paid commercials called "Participaction" and they got rid of them. Mind you, that just raised taxes! People really cannot blame anyone but themselves, and IMO there is no excuse for obesity in warmer climates, eh KC?:D

You are correct about obesity, it causes more deaths through heart disease than cancer, smoking, etc, etc. I think too many people are on computers, Playstations, and cut physical education programs in elementary school. Exercise should be promoted, but it doesn't mean people will follow.:mad: Why are we talking about this again?:confused:

HotRodSaint
06-09-03, 09:01 AM
Originally posted by the Sandman
To me, this passage from the Declaration of Independence doesn't mean we have a "right" to do whatever we want. It means we have the right to lead a free and happy life, characterized by well-being and contentment and equal with that of all other citizens. It is the function of the Government we elect to determine the course of society while securing our rights. People should not make the mistake of thinking their actions do not affect the rest of the society, because often they do. The "rights" of the individual must be taken in context with the "needs" of the society as a whole.

Please keep the drapes closed when walking around naked in the house.

Good intelligent post.:)

Katshot
06-09-03, 09:18 AM
The more dense the population becomes, the greater the impact will be on those around you from your actions.
It's ridiculous to think that in this day and age, ANYBODY can exist without having some kind of impact on those around them.
As our population gets larger, it forces us to live in ever tighter areas, which further increases the need for us all to learn to co-habitate. Unfortunately, our society has become more anti-social and introverted which I believe just serves to further aggrevate our situation.

Now what this has to do with the original intent of this thread is beyond me. Talk about going off on a tangent!

HotRodSaint
06-09-03, 09:30 AM
Originally posted by Katshot
Now what this has to do with the original intent of this thread is beyond me.

It was split. I forgot to change the name though.;)

kcnewell
06-09-03, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by Katshot
The more dense the population becomes, the greater the impact will be on those around you from your actions.


I agree with the fact that the general population is getting more dense......But probably in ways than you didn't consider in your post!