Two decades ago, few would have bet that a Japanese economy-car manufacturer would ever dominate the North American luxury-car market. Toyota proved everyone wrong with its picture-perfect introduction of the Lexus brand the following year. While this Korean automaker is as determined – and as financially capable – as its Japanese counterparts, the question isn't about product. This time, it is about perception and timing. With its first world-class luxury sedan rolling into showrooms later this month, Hyundai's bold venture is about to be placed in the hands of the consumer.

The final comparison took place on an unused straight-a-way. It was essentially a "drag race" between the Genesis 4.6 and a BMW 750i. As expected, the lighter and more powerful Genesis won each time.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/06/27/first-drive-2009-hyundai-genesis/

I knew it was a hyundai when I saw you created the thread. :p

Yeah, yeah, yeah! With what other company would this be "news"? :p

Gm ??? :)

Gm ??? :)
I didn't want to be the one to say it. :p

You have an interesting mental condition I am calling "reverse envyism" you aspire to own cars that are cheaper than the ones you already drive.

I wonder if this is how it felt when Lexus was unveiled in 1989?

You have an interesting mental condition I am calling "reverse envyism" you aspire to own cars that are cheaper than the ones you already drive.
Haha! Good one! Yeah, I don't know.. I don't know if I could go from a Cadillac to a Hyundai. But I do have to say - the car IS tempting. I mean - the price is really right for what you get.. It just cannot be denied...

No matter how much I want to like this, I still can't. It sounds good on paper, it still seems uninteresting to me.

buy it, debadge it, and enjoy the comfort.

I mean - the price is really right for what you get.. It just cannot be denied...

How is $42,000 that attractive? Everyone acts as if the loaded Genesis V8 were $25k or something, but $42,000?

You can buy a lot of NICE cars for $42,000. At that price point it will need to acquit itself on its virtues, not its price.

Looks like it'll be quite a nice used car bargin in a few years :)

I like it alot, especially the interior, which is important to me.

That is way over priced who is going to pay that for a Hyundai ?
I would rather be kicked in the nuts on repeat for half an hour !

I mean hell the car looks exactly like a Lexus or Toyota Camry.

How is $42,000 that attractive? Everyone acts as if the loaded Genesis V8 were $25k or something, but $42,000?

You can buy a lot of NICE cars for $42,000. At that price point it will need to acquit itself on its virtues, not its price.

I totally agree. Nice car, but 42,000? I test drove a fully loaded G8 GT for 32,000.
I would tell you which one gets my money, but you probablly already know.

How is $42,000 that attractive? Everyone acts as if the loaded Genesis V8 were $25k or something, but $42,000?

You can buy a lot of NICE cars for $42,000. At that price point it will need to acquit itself on its virtues, not its price.

It's not the specific number that's of consequence... but its value relative to other similar models. For $42K you get a 375HP, RWD, spacious, luxury sedan that's packed with technology to the point where if this car had an "L" or little three-pointed star, we'd be looking at a sticker price at least 20-grand north of where it's at.

Regardless... the V8 model isn't the show-stopper as far as I'm concerned... they're saying a loaded V6 model will run around $35K. With the V6 making almost 300HP added on top of all the features included in that price, it definitely makes it a huge bargain for those looking for a luxury automobile.

As far as the G8 goes... it's not even a fair comparison - they're two totally different animals. As awesome as the G8 may be - it's not a luxury car. Taking into consideration everything from the ride to the sheer amount of features, you're getting a whole lot more car for the extra $3K.

I have no doubt that once we see a true luxury variant of the Zeta platform, whether from Buick or Cadillac, the prices will be very similar if not more than what Hyundai is asking for the Genesis.

Even the nicely equipped v6 does 0-60 in 6.2 seconds and costs $35k... And like AMGoff said - the Genesis is a luxury car in every sense of the word. The G8 is not. The only thing that's really comparable between the two is power. And that alone is pretty amazing for a Hyundai.

meh.


F

No matter how much I want to like this, I still can't. It sounds good on paper, it still seems uninteresting to me.

Ditto. :yawn: Plus, I can't get beyond the "Hyundai" badge.

Forget badges for a moment.... Which Cadillac is better than the Genesis?

The Catera! At least its not a Hyundai! (Just kidding)

Ditto. :yawn: Plus, I can't get beyond the "Hyundai" badge.

Hence the reason you won't find too many "H's" on the Genesis...

I'm in lockstep with Sal on this one, which is all the more surprising because I generally hold foreign makes with a certain amount of contempt.

However... Regardless of my usual biases, I find the Genesis - as a singular model to be one hell of a car.

I still can't get over that goofy looking grille. I admit, it's not bland, but still...

Forget badges for a moment.... Which Cadillac is better than the Genesis?

In the luxury class one cannot forget badges. The American buyer of so-called luxury class automobiles will never use the true potential of their cars while driving in the American road and law environment. Once set most of the accessories will remain static for the life of the buyers ownership. So what do we really have as defining ingredient of the luxury car ........."PRESTIGE." Let's face it it is how the potential buyer perceives what ownership of a particular luxury car gives him in the way of satifaction. That is the reason the Infiniti never really rivaled Mercedes or Lexus; i.e. it was never really accepted by those who purchase luxury cars new as a prestigious car and why today Cadillac is still seen as a has been in the luxury market. So yes, badge and that badges provenace is very important.

Totally, and that's what so skeptical about the luxury market and luxury buyers. So much money goes into something so artifical and cultivated.

Forget badges for a moment.... Which Cadillac is better than the Genesis?

The definition of the term "better" is subjective, and therefore different to each buyer.

Style? The CTS looks better
Ride? I'd wager the DTS rides smoother
Roominess? DTS has it licked.
Performance and Handling? Again, the CTS is better.
Build quality? CTS is tough to beat.

It all depends what the buyer wants in a car whether one is "better" than the other. A Malibu offers 90% of the features and size of a CTS, yet the CTS commands a much larger price because of its materials, appearance, fit/finish and prestige.

Cramming tons of nifty features into a car does not automatically grant the perceived brand quality necessary to ask premium money.

Yeah, Tone, but the Genesis was never intended to rival the CTS or DTS, it's all about the 5/7 Series, LS, and the E/S Classes. If you compare it to those, the Genesis has them beat in many areas, especially value.

I was answering Sal's question. The comparison you mentioned hit my point right on the head though- value.

GM offered cars with competitive "value" to the imports all through the 80s and 90s, but the shoddy build quality, materials and resale value tanked them. There's always going to be a cheaper car out there, so the comparison becomes complicated:

A) Is it of comparable quality and material construction? If no, then it doesn't matter what the price. If yes, then
B) Is there enough of a price difference to call it a value?

Interesting thread.....

#1, Let's wait a bit, and see what the thing REALLY looks like. My latest Motor Trend had a vaguely positive write up on it too... but let's SEE it, test drive it, before we decide "on paper" that it's as good as a Cadillac, or whatever....

#2, They have brutal resale value.... if the thing is halfway decent, wait a couple years and pick one up for nothing, would be the way to go...

#3, Reverse Envyism. Brilliant! Put that in your medical dictionary right now.... This poor guy is suffering from reverse envyism!!! He's thinking about trading his Escalade for a Hyundai!!?!?!?!? That's a disease, right there. Won't you please help?? Send your contributions to the number on your screen now....

#4, related to point 2, Look on autotrader for what can be had used, and what it costs. I just bought an 04 Escalade AWD for a helluva lot less than $35 grand, and IMHO there's a lot more vehicle and a lot more value there than in a $35,000 Hyundai.... I assure you, there are 03-05 Lincoln Town Cars and Cadillac DeVille's out there for way less money than that thing....

Who said I was trading my Escalade for a Hyundai Genesis - or even considering it? I'm not. To beginwith, my 2005 Escalade ESV - in absolute mint condition - is worthless. At dealerships, I'll either get turned-down on a trade-in altogether, or get about $12,000.00 for the trade. KBB values the Escalade at about $26k - or $22 trade-in value. But that's overwith... The best I can get is MAYBE $14k for a trade - but that is really stretching it. Buying an Escalade (or any SUV) at this point is like giving money away for the fun of it.

Anyway.. Does the DTS really have more interior room than the Genesis?

Style? The CTS looks better
Ride? I'd wager the DTS rides smoother
Roominess? DTS has it licked.
Performance and Handling? Again, the CTS is better.
Build quality? CTS is tough to beat.

To me, all Cadillacs look better.. Especially the DTS - I love the DTS.... Otherwise - I'm going to bet the Genesis rides softer that the DTS. Performance? The Genesis is better than the CTS. Don't count the CTS-V because it's an entirely different experience from the Genesis. The Genesis is meant to be a luxury car - not a road-carving sports car. Handling? Yes, the CTS is better..

See? All these Cadillacs have certain things that are better than the Genesis - but where's the complete package? Which Cadillac is more powerful and luxurious than the Hyundai Genesis? The DTS is the most comfortable, luxurious full-size luxury sedan at Cadillac. Nothing else comes close to the Genesis in interior room. We're talking big cars here. So Cadillac's DTS, the closest comparison, comes up short. And that, I just cannot believe...

I want a new Fleetwood.. I want this new STS/DTS replacement NOW. And the ultra luxury sedan as well. I'm tired of waiting. I can't believe I'm actually watching Hyundai build better (more powerful and luxurious) luxury cars than Cadillac. It's just not right...

To beginwith, my 2005 Escalade ESV - in absolute mint condition - is worthless. At dealerships, I'll either get turned-down on a trade-in altogether, or get about $12,000.00 for the trade. KBB values the Escalade at about $26k - or $22 trade-in value. But that's overwith... The best I can get is MAYBE $14k for a trade - but that is really stretching it.

Who gave you that quote? I just paid a Customer $21k for an 06 EXT yesterday, and I doubt yours is worth $7k less.

Anyway.. Does the DTS really have more interior room than the Genesis?

The Genesis has more length to the front legroom but the DTS has more in the rear, as well as the DTS having more hip and shoulder room all the way around. Total passenger volume is Genesis 109.4 vs 113.2 in the DTS. They ride on identical 115.6" wheelbases, but the DTS is longer and wider with a wider track, thus giving it more overall room.

To me, all Cadillacs look better.. Especially the DTS - I love the DTS.... Otherwise - I'm going to bet the Genesis rides softer that the DTS.

Huh?

Performance? The Genesis is better than the CTS.

5.9 second 0-60 from the DI RWD CTS vs 6.2 in the V6 Genesis

All these Cadillacs have certain things that are better than the Genesis - but where's the complete package? Which Cadillac is more powerful and luxurious than the Hyundai Genesis? The DTS is the most comfortable, luxurious full-size luxury sedan at Cadillac. Nothing else comes close to the Genesis in interior room. We're talking big cars here. So Cadillac's DTS, the closest comparison, comes up short. And that, I just cannot believe...

I want a new Fleetwood.. I want this new STS/DTS replacement NOW. And the ultra luxury sedan as well. I'm tired of waiting. I can't believe I'm actually watching Hyundai build better (more powerful and luxurious) luxury cars than Cadillac. It's just not right...

Sal, Sal..... Hyundai has the pieces in place for sure. If we had a paper contest right now (oh wait- we are), the Hyundai looks like a contender. The simple fact is that materials cost what they cost, and there's a price difference for a reason. There are unspoken words at the end of every sentence in that review (sentences such as "The materials exceeded our expectations"), and those words are "......for a Hyundai".

Car rags and web sites make a living creating hype, but you have to remember that everyone is going into the Genesis with low expectations. If it's merely adequate, everyone will declare it a triumph, simply because Hyundais are generally considered sub-par.

I don't get all the hubbub about the "7 series" interior space. This looks no bigger than the back of my Seville (which is not much).

http://image.automobilemag.com/f/reviews/driven/9886984/0805_08z+2009_hyundai_genesis+rear_seat_view.jpg

...actually just checked the specs and it has a whole half inch advantage

In the luxury class one cannot forget badges. The American buyer of so-called luxury class automobiles will never use the true potential of their cars while driving in the American road and law environment. Once set most of the accessories will remain static for the life of the buyers ownership. So what do we really have as defining ingredient of the luxury car ........."PRESTIGE." Let's face it it is how the potential buyer perceives what ownership of a particular luxury car gives him in the way of satifaction. That is the reason the Infiniti never really rivaled Mercedes or Lexus; i.e. it was never really accepted by those who purchase luxury cars new as a prestigious car and why today Cadillac is still seen as a has been in the luxury market. So yes, badge and that badges provenace is very important.

And again... exactly what level of "PRESTIGE" did Lexus have when it first came to market??

All of these arguments that people are making against this car are pretty much line for line what people were saying 15-20 years ago about the Japanese... If such things weren't possible, how is it that Lexus can now be held up as a benchmark for prestigious luxury brands... especially seeing as how they've only existed for barely two decades now??

Hyundai has made great strides over the recent years and have already shown that they can produce cars capable of competing with the Japanese... As it's first real entry into the luxury market, the Genesis is one hell of a premiere.

If the Japanese could do it when everyone was saying they couldn't, then why on earth can't the Koreans? There's no logical reason why they can't.

The same type of people who bought a Lexus back in 1990 are going to buy the Genesis.

:yeah: The best explanation of the whole damn thread.

Who said I was trading my Escalade for a Hyundai Genesis - or even considering it? I'm not. To beginwith, my 2005 Escalade ESV - in absolute mint condition - is worthless. At dealerships, I'll either get turned-down on a trade-in altogether, or get about $12,000.00 for the trade. KBB values the Escalade at about $26k - or $22 trade-in value. But that's overwith... The best I can get is MAYBE $14k for a trade - but that is really stretching it. Buying an Escalade (or any SUV) at this point is like giving money away for the fun of it.

Damn that's terrible. My mom's '05 Yukon XL SLT Autoride trade in was going for at least $15k, and its missing memory seats and turn signal mirrors. I'm sure you could get better than that. How many miles does your ESV have?

Who gave you that quote? I just paid a Customer $21k for an 06 EXT yesterday, and I doubt yours is worth $7k less.

Your dealership must not have received a memo on this or something. There are stories all over the internet about full-size SUVs not getting ANYTHING near what you gave for the 06 EXT. It's just a matter of time. Unless, somehow, your dealership just keeps selling the things like gas is not an issue.


Huh?

I said, "To me, all Cadillacs look better.. Especially the DTS - I love the DTS.... Otherwise - I'm going to bet the Genesis rides softer that the DTS." - I'm not too sure what you're not understanding there.. I like the looks of the DTS and/but I think the Genesis is going to be a softer riding vehicle...

5.9 second 0-60 from the DI RWD CTS vs 6.2 in the V6 Genesis

The v8 Genesis does 0-60 in 5.7 seconds. Which soft riding full-size Cadillac does anything close to this?

I agree with everything else you mentioned....

Damn that's terrible. My mom's '05 Yukon XL SLT Autoride trade in was going for at least $15k, and its missing memory seats and turn signal mirrors. I'm sure you could get better than that. How many miles does your ESV have?

My ESV has 64k miles on it (I do lots and lots of traveling). Even so, KBB says $22k for dealer trade-in.

Well, we have a review from a regular owner:

"So far I absolutely love this car. I think they got the suspension tuning just perfect for 90% of the buying public (some enthusiasts might prefer a bit firmer ride). The steering is also better than expected, but it's still more MB than BMW. Initial impressions are that it's both more refined and a bit sportier than my 2006 Lexus GS430. I will do a proper writeup/photoshoot once I get the windows tinted and apply a few coats of Klasse."

http://genesisowners.com/hyundai-genesis-forum/showthread.php?t=154

Sal... 15-20 years from now once the Chinese have the "audacity" to start introducing luxury models to the NA market, everyone will be saying - "It'll never happen, people will never buy it, the Chinese will never be able to compare to the Japanese or the Koreans when it comes producing a luxury automobile..."

It's all cyclical... it's happened before, it's happening now, and it'll happen again. People will initially mock, discount, and dismiss such new entries - sadly out of not much more than bias and stereotypes, until a sufficient number of years go by and they become generally accepted by mainstream America. It also goes without saying that such acceptance is usually hastened by some other newcomer to the market, of which such bias can then be transferred to them.

I was amongst those who doubted the viability of the Japanese in the luxury market... I'm not about to make the same mistake with the Koreans.

A quality product is a quality product regardless of the badge affixed to it. While we won't know the long-term dependability of the Genesis for years to come, by most accounts we can at least tell that initial build quality and refinement is far above average... and far beyond the expectations of what most thought the Koreans were capable of producing. And as far as any long-term dependability goes, we merely need to remember that A.) Hyundai doesn't have to reach all too high to surpass long-term quality and dependability from such "prestige" brands as Mercedes, and B.) It's largely a moot point, since the Genesis is a luxury car that comes with the best warranty on the planet.

That's a big part of the reason why I can't understand how anyone would think that the Genesis is overpriced... it seems as if they like to forget that not only would a buyer be getting a truly fine luxury automobile, but one that comes with a tremendous warranty... and as with any high-end luxury car with luxury car parts - the warranty is sometimes worth its weight in gold as much as the car itself.

I hear ya.. I'm sure plenty of people think I'm nuts and can't believe I'm here saying what I am. However, I firmly believe that sometimes in order to see improvements, you have to ruffle some feathers. First Lexus made my favorite Cadillac (the LS) and now Hyundai has done it with the Genesis. Cadillac cannot continue to alienate it's "traditional" customers. The DTS is a sad excuse for a premium full-size luxury car.

Why in the world does Hyundai have a car that's more comparable to a BMW 750i and a Mercedes S550 than Cadillac? It just doesn't make any sense...

The CTS, while hot as hell, is just not for me. I like full-size cars. And not just bearly full-size. I like true FULL-SIZE cars. The STS is too small. The DTS is great on the outside but it's missing too much on the inside.. The STS/DTS replacement can't get here any sooner. It's going to be the car that should have been here 5 years ago.

Hyundai hit the American market in what, '86? '87? Now twenty two years later they've released their first true luxury car....I'd say that's pretty dang quick. Granted, it's not their first attempt at a "luxury" car (XG350, Azera, etc etc), but it's by far their best and most important. Now when did Toyota first hit the American market? It was the mid '60s wasn't it? They weren't really building cars with a reputation for quality until the '80s and then in '90 they released the Lexus franchise. So in all reality, it's taking less time for the Korean brands to make a name for themselves in the American market than it did for the Japanese brands. Maybe they saw what the Japanese brands did and followed suit and cut times even more too?

It'll be interesting to see what other countries start importing cars to us in the future. China is on their way...what's next? India? Malaysia? South Africa?

You hit the nail on the head Chad... Hyundai already had the template to follow due to the Japanese... Instead of having to muddle through by trial and error, they pretty much knew what to do (ie - Lexus) and what not to do (ie - Acura) before they even started... hence their hastened rate.

They shown us that they can build cars comparable to the Japanese... and each step they've taken has been better than the last. I don't know if you've had a chance to check out the Azera yet... but it's a really nice premium car - it more than surpassed my expectations. Frankly... anyone in the market for a Camry, Accord, or even an Avalon or a Lacrosse would be doing themselves a disservice by not checking the Azera out. Even the new Sonata are leaps and bounds better than what they once were.

So they've shown they can build a decent mid-size family-mobile... they've shown they can make a really nice premium car... which means the next logical step is a true luxury car... especially one that offers tremendous bang for you buck.

As much as I generally disdain foreign cars, especially Asian cars... I have to admit that even I'm becoming more and more impressed Hyundai.

I really can't wait to take a Genesis out for a test drive...

Forget badges for a moment.... Which Cadillac is better than the Genesis?Heh, good question. Shall we call you "Lord Hyundai" from now on?.:confused:

It's still Fugly and generic.

Heh, good question. Shall we call you "Lord Hyundai" from now on?.:confused:
Call me whatever you want. I give credit where credit is due. I don't care who it is...

I don't buy cars based on what other people admire. If Cadillac doesn't make a car that I like, I'm not going to buy one just because they're my favorite brand and I've always held them in high regards. I buy what's good for "me" and my passengers...

Gm ??? :)

I wish Cadillac would build a "Flagship" luxury car. The D is a nice car but it isnt in the same ballpark as the 7 series, the S class, the LS, the XJ etc.

Cadillac should build something that can win back a place among, better yet be leader, in the "luxury." The current line up is making waves among auto journalists and some young folks and that a step in the right direction. But Cadillac needs to make something has the quality and design to attract those who can pay over $100,000. for a new car something with integrity that is truly distinctive. At this juncture in time no manufacturer is designing truly beautiful, exciting luxury cars. GM has the design talent, too bad it hasn't the guts to let this talent produce another great classic design like the '92-'97 Seville STS or the '64 Buick Riviera.

This is what I'm talking about. The last two responses mimic my feelings exactly. Cadillacs exterior design team is excellent.. And the interiors are getting better too. And while I know the build quality and options are improving - they can't come fast enough. The Northstar replacement was just about ready - and now it's gone. I don't think that was the wisest move - but things could be fine with the LSx series. Money is tight - so things like this happen. I just want to make sure there is no further "thrifting" of things to come.

The new CTS is a good look into the future. So far, so good! However, like the Northstar, you just never know.

Hyundai is now putting a very powerful v8 into a RWD "luxury" sedan that's feature-rich, very quiet, soft-riding and comfortable. Cadillac has everything but the RWD and power in the DTS - which is the only true competitor to the Genesis because of its size and roominess. AND, the car costs $42k loaded. AND it has the best warranty in the business. Cadillac needs the STS/DTS replacement NOW - not in 2012. By the time 2012 comes around, Hyundai will likely have it's separate luxury division selling their larger-than-Genesis car that's supposed to be Bentley sized.

I don't like the thought of a future where Cadillac is following in Hyundai's footsteps...

The Hyundai Azera Limited is better looking and has a much more luxury orientated interior, for $27,000. I saw the Genesis and I'd much prefer the Azera Limited in that Pearl White with the Cashmire Leather & Mahogany trim/

But....my brands are Cadillac, Lincoln, Volvo S80 Elite and Saab 9.5 AERO.

The Sixteen WAS the Cadillac of the future. This car truely was BRILLIANT, to bad they axed it.

BRING IT BACK!!!!!!!!!!! (with decent gas mileage of course)

The Sixteen WAS the Cadillac of the future. This car truely was BRILLIANT, to bad they axed it.

BRING IT BACK!!!!!!!!!!! (with decent gas mileage of course)

Right On!! I second that, we need a car that really makes a statement about what the US and GM can do. Meanwhile GM keep working on the alternative energy cars for the regular folks too.

What sort of a lead are we (Cadillac) setting if we don't have the world's most premiere, desirable and elite cars?

I'm sure a lot of you are familar with the 1957-60 Eldorado Broughams. At their time, they were the most expensive car in the world, bar none. Yeah, even more expensive than a Roller or Bentley, and a heck of a lot more rare and arguably more desirable, even nowadays. Back then a Cadillac was something of immense pride and desire, even up to the mid '70s. Then the gas crunch hit and everyone wanted a smaller, foreign luxury car, then in the next 20-25 years, Cadillac lost it's footing among the world's top automakers and lost their status and "standard of the world" cache. Well it's time we regain that status by meeting or exceeding the standards put out by the foreign brands!

I know we can't expect Cadillac to be the "Standard of the World" anymore. Competition is just way too fierce these days. And honestly, I don't even expect Mercedes to be the Standard of the World. With every redesign, there are updates that bring new standards to automobiles...

So I'm not expecting the world here. All I'm expecting is Cadillac > Hyundai - hands down, no questions asked. We should also see Cadillac > Lexus but we don't. Cadillac was building cars when these companies weren't even a thought yet. It's a shame to see how they've fallen behind. But now HYUNDAI is here to challenge them? That's just a NO CAN DO if you ask me. Cadillac needs to step things up and 2012 is too late.

I do understand that the cars we're seeing now began development 5 years ago. So nothing can change overnight. And I don't want Cadillac to go rushing things either. And I ALSO know that as long as Cadillac is owned by GM (a corporation with no money), things are looking VERY grim. It's really unfortunate...

Well, atleast it's not the eighties. :)

Well, atleast it's not the eighties. :)
I wasn't a big fan of the smaller cars of the 80s but I really did like the Coupe DeVille...

Oh lord, the 1977-92 Broughams and 1977-84 deVilles..... :cloud9: :drool: :jerkit:

GM can't afford to put all of its eggs in one basket by focusing on a single brand. Of course we would all like GM to focus solely on Cadillac and revamp the entire brand overnight... but GM is doing something highly uncharacteristic they're actually being prudent by using what limited resources they have to improve the lineups of each of their brands little by little.

Yes... Cadillac needs a true flagship - and not just an overpriced Corvette. I think the main reason why the DTS has remained largely untouched is because it's still one of Cadillac's best selling models the way it is (If I recall, the CTS has surpassed it as their best selling model with the DTS now trailing, albeit slightly). If nothing else, I think Cadillac is simply trying to milk the platform as much as possible while it's still a decent seller.

With that said... I'd imagine that the DTS/STS replacement is up next in the rotation (even though I personally believe they should remain separate models) now that they've revamped their hottest selling car. However... I don't think they should take the DTS and turn it into a $100K car... as some of their V-Series cars have shown, Cadillac needs to keep their prices reasonable. Frankly, if Cadillac wants to be the "SOTW," they need to offer unsurpassed craftsmanship and features at reasonable prices.

I truly think they've got a good gameplan.... the only change I would possibly make would be to expedite the whole process a little.

I'm sure that every Cadillac from this point on is going to have very good build quality and features.. I'm unsure of what they're doing for a V8, however.

I'm probably like many other people who work VERY hard, extremely long hours and spend extremely little money on myself. All I want is a vehicle that I can be ultimately proud of. I want a top-tier full-size luxury car that's under $100,000k NEW and reasonably priced used. I would love for the DTS to be it, but it's not. The Escalade is nice but it's not a luxury car. The STS is nice but it's not roomy enough and it's a little under-powered (as far as I'm concerned). I don't want a "V-Series". It's just not "me". So where do I go? I can't wait until 2012...

Sounds like Sal would like a Cadillac competitor in the LS/7 Series/S Class/A8/XJ realm.

Sounds like Sal would like a Cadillac competitor in the LS/7 Series/S Class/A8/XJ realm.

As would I (see above).

IMO the CL and CLS are the best looking cars on the road today with the XJ running a distant second (or 3rd depending on how you count).

The new XF has my favorite interior. I LOVE the Razor style lighting and the shift-knob automatic. The exterior is quite plain and Camryish IMO though.

The DTS is what the typical consumer thinks of as the "Paw-Paw" Cadillac and I must say I agree. 90% of the ones I see have a blue hair behind the wheel. Other than HitMoneys I havnt seen a DTS I am impressd with. I had a loaner not too long ago and I was not impressed. Its as wide in the ass as a welfare mom and the exterior is BORING while the interior has that same ol Rubbermaid/Fisher Price GM cheap feel.

The term "The Cadillac of __________" was used for a reason. I dont think todays Cadis quite meet that expectation, especially in the high end arena.

The new CTS is gorgeous, but I don't know if that's gonna be enough. Keep 'em rolling boys!

I love the Mercedes CLS but, believe it or not, I think the new CTS is a better looking car. I know, the Mercedes is very unique and very classy looking. But, the CTS tops my list in looks. The interior and exterior design of the CTS leaves me with high hopes for Cadillac. For an entry-level luxury sports car, it's very, very hard to beat. I "think" this is the "new" Cadillac. However, I'm worried that there's just not enough money available to go into the higher end vehicles. I REALLY hope I'm wrong...

I'm unsure of what they're doing for a V8, however.


I think it's reasonable to assume that there will always be a V8 at home beneath the hood of a Cadillac, just not a dual-cam jobby... and as far as I'm concerned, that's perfectly acceptable. The LS motors have matured into a fully modern, awesomely powerful family of powerplants that can be adapted for nearly any purpose - including luxury cars, but at a fraction of the price it would take to produce a new DOHC Northstar replacement. For the volume of cars that such an engine would be used in, it would be a waste for GM to devote so many resources on... especially when they have several other world-class engines already at their disposal.

I'm still of the belief that the discontinuation of their new DOHC V8 program is a strong indicator that a V12 will be found in their future flagship sedan. They've spent a lot of time and money on the development of their latest High Feature sixes, which are world-class engines themselves. Being such, I'd have to imagine that the development cost of welding two of those V6s together would be much less than it would to design and produce an entirely new DOHC V8... especially since they already have the V6s developed and in production.

If Cadillac wants a flagship sedan that will truly compete with the Germans, it needs to have a V12 powerplant sitting atop the model range. So why on earth would they spend money on a new, expensive, low-volume V8 when A.) They have several modern V8s already at their disposal, and B.) What they truly need is a 12-cylinder engine, not 8.

Either way... while I firmly believe they will continue to be an option, I also see V8 Cadillacs becoming increasingly rarer - especially if they do introduce a V12. With the way gas prices are going... Most customers will probably opt for a V6, while those of whom the price of fuel isn't a consideration would most likely opt for a V12. Consequently, I see the V8 being relegated to the ranks of "enthusiasts," albeit across the entire industry, not simply Cadillac themselves.

After work, I went up to the Hyundai dealer up the road and sat in a V-6 Genesis. The interior was extremely impressive in build quality, materials and design. The thing that I remember most was the leather.....sooo soft, pliable and comfortable. I've noticed that the Asian brands like their leather extremely soft and pliable, whereas the European brands like it taut and stiffer, which will hold up better over time but doesn't feel as nice as the softer stuff.

That wasn't the top grade leather either. Only the v8 gets that. Even BMW has soft leather available with their "Individual" option.

I can't say anything about leather from MB since i've never been inside one, but I'm not a fan of BMW's stiff leather. Sure it holds up longer, but it feels so uncomfortable. The latest Cadillac's use a similar type of leather and it's too stiff, I prefer the cushy stuff they used in the Seville's and Deville's of the late 90's. More prone to cracking? Sure, but a helluva lot more comfortable.

Actually, now that I think about it, the leather in the new S Class feels a LOT like the stuff in the V-6 Genesis. The new S Class leather feels a lot softer and "better" than the stuff in my '99.

The Germans are doing a better job of building a welcoming interior these days compared to what they were 10-15 years ago. The old BMW's left me feeling cold and uninvited, where as Cadillac has always had loads of leather, wood, and enough electronics to make me feel like I'm sitting in a $50k sofa. Mercedes is doing really good with their interiors, but I still don't like how they are making simple things like changing the radio a hard task. I think it's the COMMAND system they have, and BMW has the iDrive. Both horrendous technologies IMO and I've always preferred the simpler units from Cadillac, Lexus, and Jaguar. Sure, the interior of my Seville isn't of super high class, but I don't have to take my eyes off the road to change the radio or adjust the climate controls.

Cadillac wasn't always the top luxury car in the US. Until the 1930s, that honor went to Packard, and Cadillac didn't really dominate until after WWII. Cadillac overcame Packard by having better engineering at a lower price (mismanagement at Packard was also helpful). Hyundai has learned this lesson. Cadillac (and GM) needs to relearn it.

The comments above about the need for a prestige engine are dead on. A V12 produced from two joined V6s would work very well (Cadillac did this in the 30s with its second-gen V16). And, why not a 16 for the OMG over the top damn the gas prices for the very few flagship? Put every toy conceivable on it, and undercut the S and 7 series on price. It would be a loss leader for sure, but it would make a statement that Cadillac and GM won't go quietly.

BTW, as a DTS owner, I gotta say I love my car. It has everything I want, nothing I don't, and does what I want with zero drama. That said, a six speed transmission would be welcome.