: HG Failure, Round 2



CadillacSTS42005
06-16-08, 04:36 PM
Dealer just called.
HGS failed on the 97 ETC again, 7k miles and 8 mths after the intial repair.
Its going to be covered by the dealer though under the 12k 12mth repair warranty....
Just thought i would share....

misfit6794
06-16-08, 05:05 PM
One of two things happened. Either they didn't replace the gasket on both heads, its not unheard for a dealer to only do one. Or they didn't timesert the block, the the headbolts pulled back out, also not unheard of for a dealer.

CadillacSTS42005
06-16-08, 05:15 PM
oh no doubt
i just thought id mention it

ryannel2003
06-16-08, 05:27 PM
That sucks. Hopefully they'll actually fix it this time.

mighty_quad4
06-16-08, 05:28 PM
good luck on getting a new engine, as in i hope they do the right thing.

tateos
06-16-08, 06:16 PM
Please let us know what they did wrong the first time

urbanski
06-16-08, 06:39 PM
sux.

AJxtcman
06-16-08, 08:01 PM
One of two things happened. Either they didn't replace the gasket on both heads, its not unheard for a dealer to only do one. Or they didn't timesert the block, the the headbolts pulled back out, also not unheard of for a dealer.

They either put a used engine in it or the POS TimeSerts pulled out like they always do on that old crap.

Destroyer
06-16-08, 09:13 PM
Just be glad it happened within the warranty period!.:D

CadillacSTS42005
06-16-08, 09:40 PM
no its not a used engine unless they used my old valve covers (the engine blew when i 1st bought it and the replaced it with a reman engine and the valve covers on it were painted and the heat after 30k miles started to cause the paint to peel)
when i spoke with them i insisted they timesert it they told me it didnt need it so ill bet they DIDNT timesert it

chubbyranger
06-16-08, 11:43 PM
YGBFKM. Elaine again? I'd go visit once the heads are off. That's the only way I know for sure my STS had all 20 bolts done - I saw it myself. Hope the dealer chokes on this one if they half-assed it.

Destroyer
06-17-08, 09:29 AM
no its not a used engine unless they used my old valve covers (the engine blew when i 1st bought it and the replaced it with a reman engine and the valve covers on it were painted and the heat after 30k miles started to cause the paint to peel)
when i spoke with them i insisted they timesert it they told me it didnt need it so ill bet they DIDNT timesert itSo the remanufactured engine is the one that blew the H/G's?.

CadillacSTS42005
06-17-08, 05:38 PM
yup it was the reman
and i trust the dealer they have ALWAYS been good to me and they have also done a few favors for me off the books and such so my hats off to them
they are getting me a loaner while the Eldos out too (i took the last loaner they had though today when i dropped the STS off for waterpump x-over gaskets and a laundry list of other things for the GMPP to cover)

AlBundy
06-17-08, 06:46 PM
Sorry to read that J. Hopes it turns out better the 3rd time around.

tateos
06-17-08, 07:21 PM
Has anyone here done the HG repair, followed the correct procedure, inserted all the holes in a "non-powdery aluminum" block, and still had a HG failure down the road?

I'm just curious. My head gasket repair is holding up well to date - gone a few thousand so far. I'm not driving it that much - we do now have the 4 cars for 2 people, and my wife works from home, so we don't put that many miles on any of them anymore. I will say that of our 4 cars - '97 ETC. '00 DTS, '04 Grand Prix GTP, and '05 Lincoln LS, my favorite overall is the ETC!

AJxtcman
06-17-08, 08:47 PM
Has anyone here done the HG repair, followed the correct procedure, inserted all the holes in a "non-powdery aluminum" block, and still had a HG failure down the road?

I'm just curious. My head gasket repair is holding up well to date - gone a few thousand so far. I'm not driving it that much - we do now have the 4 cars for 2 people, and my wife works from home, so we don't put that many miles on any of them anymore. I will say that of our 4 cars - '97 ETC. '00 DTS, '04 Grand Prix GTP, and '05 Lincoln LS, my favorite overall is the ETC!

Good point
I can't remember a good block failing in my time, but all blocks were created equal correct?
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Northstar/Block%20failures/Blockcutaway.jpg
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Northstar/Block%20failures/Blocksection.jpg

tateos
06-18-08, 11:44 AM
AJ - I have read and been educated by your numerous posts describing and illustrating the faulty castings - especially in the '96-'99 period. What I was asking was: Has anyone properly inserted a good block and replaced the HGs with success, only to experience a failure down the road. I believe you have said that you never had a comeback on a customers car, although you have aborted a repair process when you found a block that was beyond repair.

Mark C
06-18-08, 12:20 PM
I've got 10K miles on my 97 STS since doing my HGs so far. No issues with the time serts, and I did mine in my driveway.

AJxtcman
06-18-08, 12:23 PM
AJ - I have read and been educated by your numerous posts describing and illustrating the faulty castings - especially in the '96-'99 period. What I was asking was: Has anyone properly inserted a good block and replaced the HGs with success, only to experience a failure down the road. I believe you have said that you never had a comeback on a customers car, although you have aborted a repair process when you found a block that was beyond repair.

I have seen some come back, but I don't know what the block looked like when the inserts were installed.
I have never seen one that I did come back.
I think it is a gamble
If the threads pull out you have an issue. If they don't and you TimeSert it for GP the TimeSert may come free.
I have installed a few TimeSerts. In doing this I have found that some of the bolt hole are not square. Some time the bolt hole bores look curved after you drill them out. They don't look like the are drill off center, but the hole is bent. A Tech I worked with calls it Core Shift, but I don't think that is the correct term. Now the new hole you drilled is not perfectly centered in the threaded area. When it is tapped every thing looks fine, but you don't know what part of the block is weak. This is why I don't like to TimeSert every hole. Some time the centering part of the Drill/Ream won't even go down in the block because the hole is curved

tateos
06-18-08, 03:07 PM
Good info as usual AJ - thanks!



I have seen some come back, but I don't know what the block looked like when the inserts were installed.
I have never seen one that I did come back.
I think it is a gamble
If the threads pull out you have an issue. If they don't and you TimeSert it for GP the TimeSert may come free.
I have installed a few TimeSerts. In doing this I have found that some of the bolt hole are not square. Some time the bolt hole bores look curved after you drill them out. They don't look like the are drill off center, but the hole is bent. A Tech I worked with calls it Core Shift, but I don't think that is the correct term. Now the new hole you drilled is not perfectly centered in the threaded area. When it is tapped every thing looks fine, but you don't know what part of the block is weak. This is why I don't like to TimeSert every hole. Some time the centering part of the Drill/Ream won't even go down in the block because the hole is curved

CadillacSTS42005
06-18-08, 05:25 PM
dealer called
ETC should be done tomorrow...
2.5 days to do a HG?!??!
something fishy i think...

Ranger
06-18-08, 05:53 PM
That's probably right for an experienced mechanic with all the proper tools. I recall Ian (for those who remember him) saying he could have the engine on a stand and ready for surgery in :45 min.

AJxtcman
06-18-08, 07:41 PM
That's probably right for an experienced mechanic with all the proper tools. I recall Ian (for those who remember him) saying he could have the engine on a stand and ready for surgery in :45 min.

1998 to 04 Seville and 2000 to 05 Devilles take about 45 minutes to get them out.

CadillacSTS42005
06-18-08, 10:14 PM
what about a 97 Eldo?

AJxtcman
06-18-08, 10:30 PM
what about a 97 Eldo?

1 1/2 to 2 hrs

zonie77
06-19-08, 02:45 PM
My brother thinks his 97 may have a HG problem. We did it about 2 yrs ago. We timserted all holes but I don't think we recorded which were originally failed. It had a LOT of bad ones, way more than 1 or 2.

He's been real busy so it may be next week before he gets a exh gas check done. Then we'll decide on redoing or not.

zonie77
06-19-08, 02:48 PM
dealer called
ETC should be done tomorrow...
2.5 days to do a HG?!??!
something fishy i think...

With a lift, power tools, and having it done before I'd be suspicious if it took longer than that.

CadillacSTS42005
06-19-08, 03:50 PM
took them 1-2 weeks last time as i recall
anyways i spoke with the service advisor today
they pulled the heads and found the gasket fully intact, they sent the heads to a machine shop to ensure they hadnt cracked or warped
if they check out then low and behold it pulled the heads (no surprise) as they elected now to tell me they did NOT timesert the engine the 1st time....

zonie77
06-19-08, 04:17 PM
Not being in the shop it's hard to tell why that one took so long. Did they leave it to do quick jobs? Did they wait on parts? We don't know.

If you have all the parts on hand, and you've done it before, it should be about a 20 hour job. That's without 20 timeserts.

Ranger
06-19-08, 04:17 PM
as they elected now to tell me they did NOT timesert the engine the 1st time....
Ah Ha. Another testemonial to always Timeserting every hole, need it or not.

CadillacSTS42005
06-19-08, 04:24 PM
oh i agree
had i of known this wouldnt of happened
i did firmly suggest this time they do it to avoid ANOTHER warranty claim....

chubbyranger
06-19-08, 05:39 PM
I think I may hold the record at 46 days - but that was at an independent shop. Hard to believe a dealer would not do Timeserts, especially on your nickel the first time.

tateos
06-19-08, 08:07 PM
OK zonie - let us know what you find out. Hot enough for you lately? Too hot for a HG job for me. I waited out the summer last year before I started my HG project - I had the luxury of an extra car. Of course, then it got COLD in the garage - you sometimes can't win here in AZ!



My brother thinks his 97 may have a HG problem. We did it about 2 yrs ago. We timserted all holes but I don't think we recorded which were originally failed. It had a LOT of bad ones, way more than 1 or 2.

He's been real busy so it may be next week before he gets a exh gas check done. Then we'll decide on redoing or not.

zonie77
06-20-08, 12:32 AM
Tateos, my garage has radiant barrier sheathing and it's well insulated. It's almost bearable in there.

I got a large roof type evap cooler but didn't get it running last year. I built a stand and have to make a duct for it. It's a down draft so I want to direct the air. Maybe that should be my project now. I'm gonna run it inside the garage, not roof mounted.

tateos
06-20-08, 02:12 PM
zonie - that sounds good. So far, I have had the luxury of taking summers off for big projects in the garage, but if I have to do some major work out there, I guess I would consider buying one of those portable evap coolers; I could also just add a vent off the regular AC system, since the air handler is in a closet in the garage. Like I said, so far I have not had the need to do much more than oil changes when it is really hot

zonie77
06-21-08, 11:18 AM
Tateos, If it was real easy I'd do the vent which you could close when not needed. I have a window evap (getting rusty) that I used for years. THe problem is room and Monsoon season.

Raze
06-23-08, 12:53 PM
I had mine done on the 98 ETC at 95k and it's at 123k now with no problems, they're just regular GM approved timeserts. Had a caddy/jag specialty shop do the work since they do a ton of them and told me the block was in good shape for the sert. So the N* can last after the job, just make sure they don't drop any foreign debris into the intake like they did on mine, had one of those metal grommets from the beauty cover rattle around for close to 2 years before it jammed open an intake valve, but I got lucky there since nothing hit. But yeah, make sure they double check :)

tateos
06-23-08, 04:54 PM
Yeah - I remember that from a few months ago - that was really something!



I had mine done on the 98 ETC at 95k and it's at 123k now with no problems, they're just regular GM approved timeserts. Had a caddy/jag specialty shop do the work since they do a ton of them and told me the block was in good shape for the sert. So the N* can last after the job, just make sure they don't drop any foreign debris into the intake like they did on mine, had one of those metal grommets from the beauty cover rattle around for close to 2 years before it jammed open an intake valve, but I got lucky there since nothing hit. But yeah, make sure they double check :)

STS 310
06-23-08, 07:45 PM
They either put a used engine in it or the POS TimeSerts pulled out like they always do on that old crap.

POS timeserts?

Must have been away way tooooo long is there something better?

Just wondering?

tateos
06-23-08, 09:09 PM
Norms

AlBundy
06-23-08, 10:36 PM
POS timeserts?

Must have been away way tooooo long is there something better?

Just wondering?

More caddy techs post Bbob days.:D