: I hope exec's read this forum.



mrplastic
05-25-04, 02:36 AM
I hope that exec's as myself do read this forum. I ordered my 05 EXT and this is what it is missing!

#1.)The EXT needs a telescoping steering wheel along with the peddels.
#2.) It needs a Heads Up display Like my wife's Rendevous. The speedo is never in the right place and can't be read for lots of people where the wheel is comfotable.
#3.)The EXT needs a numeric entry like the LINCONS have.
#4.) The EXT needs to have a no leak tonneau cover.
#5.) We need aftermarket rims to work with all the driver info center.

anyone listening???

jerseyvette
06-21-04, 04:33 PM
I hope that exec's as myself do read this forum. I ordered my 05 EXT and this is what it is missing!

#1.)The EXT needs a telescoping steering wheel along with the peddels.
#2.) It needs a Heads Up display Like my wife's Rendevous. The speedo is never in the right place and can't be read for lots of people where the wheel is comfotable.
#3.)The EXT needs a numeric entry like the LINCONS have.
#4.) The EXT needs to have a no leak tonneau cover.
#5.) We need aftermarket rims to work with all the driver info center.

anyone listening???Those are excellent points. Here is what else is needed and expected from Cadillac:
1) CADILLAC passenger cars are WAY TOO SMALL inside now. I just drove a 2005 Chrysler 300c (with the hemi motor) and it HANDS down beats any Seville, CTS (standard-not V Series) & Deville in the following categories:
Again I am on my 3rd Cadillac and currently own 2 GM cars.

Headroom and Legroom (destroys any production caddy sedan)
Performance (has auto-stick and a much more powerful motor and is fun to drive)
Gearing: The gearing is brutish, rear drive and strong feeling (Caddy does not compete as is in this segment with Seville or Deville)
Overall layout: much more attractive from a seating position and visually. Very reminiscent of a Audi A8/ S Class type/size of car (with great rear leg room).
Price
Overall the Germans have definately beat out Cadillac with designing this car.(It turns my stomach to say it but the truth hurts).
I am actually quite upset that GM makes small, cramped cars and expects the next generation of luxury buyers to purchase them. They(management) must be either so far removed from market needs that the company is off track or management is completely asleep. Sit in the drivers seat of an S Class Mercedes or the Chrysler 300c and you will see what is expected from a roominess and headroom perspective. Management needs to step in, step up or get out if they keep making sub par sized cars.

Smokey
06-22-04, 03:23 PM
I do not know what late model Deville you drove, but my 2000 beats the 300C on interior room, especially back seat room. In fact the following incident pretty much sums it up. My wife and I were at our local Chrysler dealer looking at 4 new 300Cs. There were 3 other couples there at the same time, also looking. As i walked back to my Deville, I heard one of the ladies say "what the hell is he looking at the 300C when he's driving that Cadillac?" I then turned around and told her, I thought I'd just keep the Caddy and she and one of the other couples all chimed in at the same time that if they had my Cadillac, they would not be looking at the 300C. True story .... made me feel even better about my Deville.



Specs: 300C Caddy

Fr Shoulder 59.4 60.4
Fr Head 38.7 39.1
Fr Leg 41.8 42.4
Fr Hip 55.9 56.4

Rr Shoulder 57.7 60.1
Rr Head 37.0 38.4
Rr Leg 40.2 43.2
Rr Hip 55.9 56.7

jerseyvette
06-25-04, 12:15 AM
I do not know what late model Deville you drove, but my 2000 beats the 300C on interior room, especially back seat room. In fact the following incident pretty much sums it up. My wife and I were at our local Chrysler dealer looking at 4 new 300Cs. There were 3 other couples there at the same time, also looking. As i walked back to my Deville, I heard one of the ladies say "what the hell is he looking at the 300C when he's driving that Cadillac?" I then turned around and told her, I thought I'd just keep the Caddy and she and one of the other couples all chimed in at the same time that if they had my Cadillac, they would not be looking at the 300C. True story .... made me feel even better about my Deville.



Specs: 300C Caddy

Fr Shoulder 59.4 60.4
Fr Head 38.7 39.1
Fr Leg 41.8 42.4
Fr Hip 55.9 56.4

Rr Shoulder 57.7 60.1
Rr Head 37.0 38.4
Rr Leg 40.2 43.2
Rr Hip 55.9 56.7
There is absolutely NO WAY that the 2000 Deville has equal knee and leg room as a 2005 Chrysler 300C. I've sitten in and drove MANY Devilles 2000 and newer and I also drove the Chrysler.

Room is also measured in many other ways (in my opinion). You need to feel as if you are ina 5 person (fully relaxed) and comfortable car like the 300C feels like. I sit in a Deville and just feel completely crammed. The Dash protrudes WAY to much and the rear head room is too little.

I just want a caddy that takes on a S500 in interior roominess. Am I bitter yes beacuse I've had cadillacs forever and now I don't fit in them. Is the 300C a nicer car than a caddy no (the Deville looks a LOT better from the outside). But from my side of things a car that is too crammed is VERY poorly engineered and Caddy has lost this bout in my experiences compared to the 300C.

Smokey
06-28-04, 12:53 PM
To each his own. My 2000 Deville is the most confortable vehicle I have ever driven and it fits me very well, much more than the 300C. After a test drive, I did like the tourqey HEMI and the "feel" somewhat of a RWD car, but would I trade my Deville for one? NO ... I cannot see me spending long hours on the highway in the 300C. It's wonderful there so many different vehicles, everyone can have what they want. For me, it's a Cadillac. :)

jerseyvette
07-02-04, 11:13 AM
To each his own. My 2000 Deville is the most confortable vehicle I have ever driven and it fits me very well, much more than the 300C. After a test drive, I did like the tourqey HEMI and the "feel" somewhat of a RWD car, but would I trade my Deville for one? NO ... I cannot see me spending long hours on the highway in the 300C. It's wonderful there so many different vehicles, everyone can have what they want. For me, it's a Cadillac. :)Smokey,
I am also a die hard caddy fan and love everything about the cars. I actually have books at home that describe every model ever and I can't put it down. the reason why I get son tempered about caddys as of late is that I really like all their vehicles but when I am "engineered out" in the size of the interiors. It would be a danger for me to drive the cars(or even get hit by another vehicle while sitting in the back for example). For example with the new Deville: I love the way the car looks however my knees touch the dash right under the steering wheel area. if I were to get in a collision my knees would break and I would be really screwed. Now look at a Mercedes E Class: More room (smaller car yes) but still a lot safer for me. I hope GMs management comes down on the engineering team with rules to benchmark other cars in roominess (especially near the knee areas).:drinker

Logandiagnostic
07-05-04, 09:07 PM
The 300? Let me tell you about the 300.....

In Florida right now on vacation.....got to see my father in laws new 300....pretty nice...I drive a 2001 DTS....His 300 is a company car...not a HEMI. Car has 400 miles on it....

Anyways today...FIL gets ready to leave. The 300 will not start....the key would not turn at all.

Being today is July 5th...no Chrysler support.....little 800# support. Hmmmmmm....no dealers open.

Hand our Saturn VUE to the father in law...it runs..cut him loose. After a couple hours of crash course Chryser tech.....figure out the ignition key cylinder has failed....got the car running and able to shift in to gear. I've got the complete ignition key lock assembly with the key cylinder stuck in it...


I guess we will call a Chrysler dealer in the morning....we can fix the car here....just need the parts. If not I guess we will let Chrysler tow it away.


Its a new car picked up last Thursday. 400 miles on it....maybe 20-25 key cycles on the key cylinder. Also the passenger window will go down....but not up.


Logan
www.airbagcrash.com
www.logandiagnostic.com

Rolex
07-05-04, 09:37 PM
I've said this before....and I'll say it again: the two best days you own any Chrysler product are:

1. the day you buy it:cool:
2. the day you sell it!!!!!:tisk:

RERM
07-05-04, 09:43 PM
Well I know VW (as I mentioned in my first post, used to drive a 2000 GTI) reads VW Vortex. When I purchased my GTI new, they called me about 3 days after I put up a thread about a faulty window regulator, got many responses. They fixed it on the production line and gave us all free replacements.


I hope this forum gets to be as good as VW Vortex is. I think we've got a good start, but we need more people!!!

jerseyvette
07-05-04, 10:28 PM
The 300? Let me tell you about the 300.....

In Florida right now on vacation.....got to see my father in laws new 300....pretty nice...I drive a 2001 DTS....His 300 is a company car...not a HEMI. Car has 400 miles on it....

Anyways today...FIL gets ready to leave. The 300 will not start....the key would not turn at all.

Being today is July 5th...no Chrysler support.....little 800# support. Hmmmmmm....no dealers open.

Hand our Saturn VUE to the father in law...it runs..cut him loose. After a couple hours of crash course Chryser tech.....figure out the ignition key cylinder has failed....got the car running and able to shift in to gear. I've got the complete ignition key lock assembly with the key cylinder stuck in it...


I guess we will call a Chrysler dealer in the morning....we can fix the car here....just need the parts. If not I guess we will let Chrysler tow it away.


Its a new car picked up last Thursday. 400 miles on it....maybe 20-25 key cycles on the key cylinder. Also the passenger window will go down....but not up.


Logan
www.airbagcrash.com (http://www.airbagcrash.com/)
www.logandiagnostic.com (http://www.logandiagnostic.com)
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt but I'd say you work for GM or a GM dealer..just my gut feeling by your comments. Regardless of any Chrysler 300 starting issues etc..the car is still far more advanced in style and roominess than any caddy on the market right now. Again, I love the Escalade and absolutely love the way caddys look. The engineering flaws are in the size of Cadillac's interiors. If I were a GM shareholder I'd vote for a new interior engineering team for the Cadillac division of GM. The more I think about this the less appealing Caddy's direction is becoming....sorry to say.:helpless:

Logandiagnostic
07-06-04, 02:11 PM
As a matter of fact we do work for GM. I personally was excited about getting a close hand look at the new 300.

I'm sure GM has a 300 already torn down....the parts are looked at, weighed, analysis, etc.

This type of failure is considered a 'walk home' failure. Your dead in the water per say. #1 customer pisser offerrr type issue. Something like this is typicaly found at the factory before the car leaves the plant.

Call the nearest Chrysler dealer this morning 20 miles away in Pensacola. No parts directly available....may be able to FedEx some in. Car was towed in about 8:30 this morning.

Its their baby now.


Logan
www.airbagcrash.com
www.logandiagnostic.com

jerseyvette
07-06-04, 06:05 PM
As a matter of fact we do work for GM. I personally was excited about getting a close hand look at the new 300.

I'm sure GM has a 300 already torn down....the parts are looked at, weighed, analysis, etc.

This type of failure is considered a 'walk home' failure. Your dead in the water per say. #1 customer pisser offerrr type issue. Something like this is typicaly found at the factory before the car leaves the plant.

Call the nearest Chrysler dealer this morning 20 miles away in Pensacola. No parts directly available....may be able to FedEx some in. Car was towed in about 8:30 this morning.

Its their baby now.


Logan
www.airbagcrash.com (http://www.airbagcrash.com/)
www.logandiagnostic.com (http://www.logandiagnostic.com)
You have to give me credit for calling you out as someone that was affiliated with GM. I've been driving GM cars since 1990 and recommend them to anyone for almost any use. The Chrysler 300 in my opinion is so well outside the box and bold that Caddy has major work to do to be at par with this car (in almost every category). I think the issue with GM "up top in management" at this point. The problems are that the little things are being done wrong instead of the right things being done right. Evidence of this are high pricing for "under premium product" in several cars (like Saabs with 4 cylinders etc). Another issue is one that we've all been discussing is engineering and product competitiveness. The Deville DTS has a Uni-body and crammed feel overall(like I stated in another post that if I were to get smashed from behind in the car both of my knees would break..it's unsafe for tall people). I personally think the Chrysler 300C (as a benchmark) should be the style and type of Car Caddy offers as a mid-size car. The top end cars should be big, well tuned and very powerful (possibly a tad smaller then a full sized Bentley).

What the hell is happening at GM? The Sigma-Stigma is more likely to lure people like me AWAY from the brand rather than to it. Caddy's thinking for example: "Let's introduce a " $29K cousin of catera" called CTS, drop in a high volume engine called northstar, run a commercial or two and then put a $55K price tag on it and name it a 2005 STS or SRX V8...what the people will really love is spending $55K on a car that THEY KNOW shares the same construction and platform as a $29K CTS...and it looks almost exactly the same.."

Anyone agree with me here that this is all way off and outside of the way yuppies think? Now what would make sense is introducing a Buick that is similar to a 2005 STS with virtually the same performance for $38K. This would lead to a psychological feeling of value in the buyers mind.

I welcome any feedback from other GM owners.:want:

RERM
07-07-04, 11:09 PM
You have to give me credit for calling you out as someone that was affiliated with GM. I've been driving GM cars since 1990 and recommend them to anyone for almost any use. The Chrysler 300 in my opinion is so well outside the box and bold that Caddy has major work to do to be at par with this car (in almost every category). I think the issue with GM "up top in management" at this point. The problems are that the little things are being done wrong instead of the right things being done right. Evidence of this are high pricing for "under premium product" in several cars (like Saabs with 4 cylinders etc). Another issue is one that we've all been discussing is engineering and product competitiveness. The Deville DTS has a Uni-body and crammed feel overall(like I stated in another post that if I were to get smashed from behind in the car both of my knees would break..it's unsafe for tall people). I personally think the Chrysler 300C (as a benchmark) should be the style and type of Car Caddy offers as a mid-size car. The top end cars should be big, well tuned and very powerful (possibly a tad smaller then a full sized Bentley).

What the hell is happening at GM? The Sigma-Stigma is more likely to lure people like me AWAY from the brand rather than to it. Caddy's thinking for example: "Let's introduce a " $29K cousin of catera" called CTS, drop in a high volume engine called northstar, run a commercial or two and then put a $55K price tag on it and name it a 2005 STS or SRX V8...what the people will really love is spending $55K on a car that THEY KNOW shares the same construction and platform as a $29K CTS...and it looks almost exactly the same.."

Anyone agree with me here that this is all way off and outside of the way yuppies think? Now what would make sense is introducing a Buick that is similar to a 2005 STS with virtually the same performance for $38K. This would lead to a psychological feeling of value in the buyers mind.

I welcome any feedback from other GM owners.:want:


Well, platform sharing has been going on at GM (and just about every major automaker) since the sixties. It's the execution that counts.

Ex: Audi A4 =VW Golf
MB SLK = Chrysler Crossfire
Jaguar X type = Ford Mondeo = Volvo 40 series
VW Touareg = Porsche Cayenne
Every Chevy truck = every GMC truck = Cadillac Escalade
Etc...etc...etc........

M STaR 013
07-17-04, 03:41 AM
The Chrysler 300 in my opinion is so well outside the box and bold that Caddy has major work to do to be at par with this car (in almost every category).

i must say cadillac was so well outside the box when they introduced the CTS. very bold styling imo.

jerseyvette, do you work for daimlerchrysler? you should change your user title from "Cadillac Fan" to "300 Fan." if caddy, even GM, keeps on disappointing you, maybe it is time to move on to another make.

CaddyFan2004
07-17-04, 11:01 PM
i must say cadillac was so well outside the box when they introduced the CTS. very bold styling imo.

jerseyvette, do you work for daimlerchrysler? you should change your user title from "Cadillac Fan" to "300 Fan." if caddy, even GM, keeps on disappointing you, maybe it is time to move on to another make.

Good one.

I'm also getting tired of reading his same comments over and over about how he doesn't fit in a Cadillac.

I'm guessing he's actually a Chrysler dealer or salesperson.

Johnz
07-21-04, 05:51 PM
[u]

What the hell is happening at GM? The Sigma-Stigma is more likely to lure people like me AWAY from the brand rather than to it. Caddy's thinking for example: "Let's introduce a " $29K cousin of catera" called CTS, drop in a high volume engine called northstar, run a commercial or two and then put a $55K price tag on it and name it a 2005 STS or SRX V8...what the people will really love is spending $55K on a car that THEY KNOW shares the same construction and platform as a $29K CTS...and it looks almost exactly the same.."

Anyone agree with me here that this is all way off and outside of the way yuppies think? Now what would make sense is introducing a Buick that is similar to a 2005 STS with virtually the same performance for $38K. This would lead to a psychological feeling of value in the buyers mind.

I welcome any feedback from other GM owners.:want:

I have purchased my first GM product I have ever owned. I bought the Cadillac SRX. You cant compare the SRX to a Deville, they are two different animals. A Seville type car could never be made to handle like the SRX. As far as comparing it to a Caterra, way off! So far the SRX is the best car I have ever owned. I am 6'-2" tall and it fits me with plenty of room to spare. It has the biggest rear seat legroom in it's class. I was looking at SUV imports and was prepared to by the BMW or Volvo and this particular dealer also sold Cadillacs. I decided to take it for a spin and after driving the BMW X5, Volvo XC90, VW Toureg, Lexus and a few others, this car by far was the best. Bigger in front and rear legroom and more power than any of them by far. It truly handles like a sports car, not an SUV. It holds the road in any condition with no sway what so ever in the turns. Yes it's true that it's an expensive vehicle. It starts around $38,000 and I bought it pretty loaded for around $50,000 out the door but compared to the other vehicles in it's class, it's right on track when you compare those other vehicles with the same options.

Hey, It's a Cadillac. As far as buying a GM, I wouldn't by any GM product other than a Cadillac. All Gm's are not the same. The service alone is twice as good at a Cadillac dealer than they are at a Chevy dealer.

It's like comparing a Lexus ES300 to a Toyota Camary. Yes they look the same and are made by the same company. But they are $5,000- $7,000 more expensive and when you drive them, you can tell the difference right away.

The service department at the Cadillac dealerships go out of their way to let you know you bought a Cadillac and you should be treated as such.

Way to go GM! :)

Buy American!

John Caddy
07-27-04, 10:23 AM
The SRX brought me back to GM as well - my first car was a '72 Impala and I hadn't owned GM since...

In the 16 interim cars between my GMs, I was lured in twice by Chrysler products - both were decidedly built for the showroom and all but fell apart in the real world. Never ever ever going to Daimler-Chrysler again!

My Sigma Caddy isn't perfect (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17184) and I do hope that GM execs find this forum because a few small changes and these cars will have NO competition! But it's solid and it looks better than any SUV/wagon on the road, it's for the most part well thought out, it's got more leg and head room than the kraut and jap competitors and the bonus of a third row seat.

The sigma platform is finally an american product that can compete with Mercedes and BMW and it feels good to buy American and not support products from socialist/communist countries! (P.S. Buying Chrysler products is NOT buying American.)

Thanks:
JC

cguthrie
08-01-04, 08:51 PM
On a positive note, Caddie brought me back to GM also. 1st car was a '68 Caprice, 327, 275-300hp?, but I remember the key in the dash just like my 99STS!

Anyway, the 68 lasted to 180K when the timing chain broke. My STS has 94K, of which i've put 50K personally, w/no problems. Yes it burns oil, which I now refer to as a "feature", not a defect. My sister bought a simalar STS, and loves it also.

I'm thrilled with the new STS, for a couple reasons. First, rear wheel drive will definitely help Cadillac compete with the rest of the world, and second, my next car will probably be a 2003 STS, which will be an even better value. I'll get a 2005 in 2007!

A used STS is definitely one of the best full size - or for jerseyvette - midsized sedan on the market.

Chris
99STS 94K

HITMONEY
10-01-04, 11:58 PM
Hi all, my first post! :)
First lemme say I am 34 and have owned 4 Caddys. Currently an 02 Escalade AWD and recently purchased a very low mile 2002 black DTS with all the bells and whistles.

Before buying the DTS I considered a 300c. First I rented one from a high end rental place. I loved the car! It had style, class, uber power, comfort... I thought I was in a caddy. To say the least I was impressed and was sure to buy one the following week.

Then it happened. I saw a 300 touring edition on the road and it was a TAXI CAB! There went the class and style. The same day while researching the car on the internet I found an article stating that the 300 was being considered as a new POLICE vehicle in some part of California.

That was the last straw. No way was I gonna drive a car that could be seen used as a Taxi in my town.. or better yet one day being pulled over by one.

I ended up finding a black 2002 DTS with low miles and purchased it. I absolutely love it.. When I get in my Escalade, (which isn't much anymore) I feellike I am driving a pickup truck.

And to the guy saying his kness hit the dash board on a DeVille?? You must be a big boy! I am 6'1 and I don't even put the seat fully back and have the steering wheel fully telescoped out.

I am SOOoooooo glad I got the DTS over the 300 with the optional Yeelow checker paint job.

:histeric:

catscnfly
11-17-04, 11:39 PM
Gettin' down to brass tacks.. are people really, truly, actually comparing the historically obvious credibility of Cadillac to Chrysler? If anyone is considering the purchase of a Chrysler over a Cadillac, ... may they find someone in time that'll explain the birds n' the bees!

gloria smith
12-16-04, 08:06 PM
I'm a Cadillac lover as well, and it would have been nice if it (XLR 2004) had ran for sixty days before dying!

I also think that there is a lemon in every make of cars, but that's no reason for GM or the Cadillac Exec. to preform worst than the lemon they sold me.

gloria

danbuc
12-24-04, 04:53 AM
I sat in a CTS and a new STS at my local caddy dealer while my car was in for service. I have to say that as much as I love the cars, they could use a tad bit more refining. When I sat in the STS, the first thing that went through my mind were the bench seats in my 1963 Mercury Monterey. That how hard they felt compared to my 1998 STS. The trunk is also alot smaller than the older style caddies, as well as the opening for it. The interior also also struck me a a little cheap (all the plastic stuff I guess) although the wood trim did look very nice. There is much less leg room in the back seats, although I hardly ever have anyone in the car other than me so that didn't really bother me. I'd have to say that the saets would be the deciding factor on whether or not I bought a new caddy. My friends parents have a 2002 DTS. When I get out of his 1995 Deville Concours and get into their DTS, it like going from sitting on a cloud to sitting on a slab of concrete. Even my 1998 STS has much more comfortable seat then the new STS. I know it's supposed to be "sporty", but that no reason to be sitting on a park bench when you drive the car. Overall, it fit and finsh of all the parts as a whole that determine the integrity reliability of a car. Although the 300C is a very well designed car, Chrysler just doesn't have the reputation for descent reliability that GM has now. I think thats the main reason that people who drive Cadillacs such as myself are turned away by the Chrysler. I will wait a year or two till its been in the market place for a while until I make my final decision. For all we know, it could be just as reliable as a caddy. After all, it is a Mercedes hidden beneath a Chrysler skin.

majax
12-29-04, 03:37 PM
I'm a Cadillac lover as well, and it would have been nice if it (XLR 2004) had ran for sixty days before dying!

I also think that there is a lemon in every make of cars, but that's no reason for GM or the Cadillac Exec. to preform worst than the lemon they sold me.

gloria



Thats a bummer did they replace the car for you under lemon law?

powerglide
01-17-05, 10:50 PM
I find the 00-04 deville interiors cramped compared to the 98 I own now. Hence waited on redesign cycle hoping for the best in 06.

Lots of cars and SUV's have amazingly small interiors depsite huge exteriors. Numbers alone can't tell you how craped the FEEL.

Been impressed by the VW bug for massive interior space.

Been bummed out by the Toyota SUV's and minivans and Jaguar's for tiny seats, cramped leg room

Nothing I HATE more than my knee bumping into the dash and hair rustling up against the headline.

I am 230LBS 5'11 BTW

TCSisOFF
05-03-05, 05:39 PM
I honestly don't even feel like griping anymore. I think I'll just start shooting GM employees who don't believe in the philosophy: The customer is always right!

70eldo
10-11-05, 05:20 AM
I must say that the Benz influence on Chrysler (Mercedes Benz partially took over Chrysler) produced a lot more exciting and daring designs. That's what makes Chrysler/Benz other than GM. It seems that GM tends to create one nice design and copy it to all their products. You can even see this stealth design, which is a hughe success on the CTS and the XLR, coming back in the Opel/Vauxhall designs. While Chrysler has models each with their own style. You don't see any similarities in the Crossfire and the 300, do you?

Cadillac is in a more exclusive section of the market. They belong there. I hope you would never see a Cadillac taxicab like you see the 300 (or Dodge Magnum). Don't compare apples and pears. An RV has more legroom too in the same price class and then you even got a fridge and a toilet...

But like I said in another thread, the Cadillac Fleet could use some diversity. So that each class can have their best appearance stylewhise...

Oh yeah, GM could work on some quality too. Like I've had some problems with my CTS too. It's a pity as such problems you won't see so many on a new German car for example. And I miss complementary service in Europe!!! It's a shame to be treated like that when you think you drive an exclusive car... Though it's a 100% improvement that you can select your Cadillac at a Cadillac (or Cadillac/Chevrolet) Dealer and not at an Opel Dealer anymore!