: How much could the price jump. What does history tell us...?



anim8orCTSV
05-30-08, 06:22 AM
I was wondering what could the price jump to? Could it really go from 50 to 70k?

Would Cadillac do that? What have other companies done in respect to a model that has been completely redesigned? If I remember correctly (and I am not comparing apples to apples) the Mustang price did not jump that much when the new body style came out a few years ago.

Does any one know of a similar update to a model that is on par with the Version 1 V to the Version 2 V? How did the price jump in that situation.

It seems to me that most of the time the price is kept the same if not close.

I just want to know your opinions.

-Paul

anim8orCTSV

csp3000
05-30-08, 09:29 AM
They do jump alot when it is a completley new car. Look at the price points of the last generation M5 to now. I believe mid 70ish for the last generation to now creaping 6 figures for a loaded one.

Cadillac Tony
05-30-08, 09:41 AM
It's not going to be $70 grand, people. Seriously.

CTSV_510
05-30-08, 10:18 AM
If I remember correctly (and I am not comparing apples to apples) the Mustang price did not jump that much when the new body style came out a few years ago.



New body style + interior, but how much did the rest of the car change? We're talking more than a traditional redesign here...

ylwjacket
05-30-08, 10:20 AM
Who cares if it is $70k? Who cares if it's $80k or $100k? This "it has to be cheap or I won't buy it" stuff is ridiculous.

If it comes out at $80k, you buy it if you can afford it, and if not, you buy something else. It is up to each potential consumer to make a judgment as to its worth. If it's worth it to you, you buy it. If it's not, then you don't.

Personally, I like the XLRV, but I think it's overpriced, so I have a CTSV. I see XLRV's on the road, so people with more money than me I guess determined that it is worth it to them.

My neighbor's house, which I really like, went on the market for $850k. That's twice the price of my home, and the upgrade, in spite of how much I like their house, is not worth it to me, so I still live in my house.

Welcome to the Capitalist Experiment called the United States of America.

Dr Chill
05-30-08, 06:21 PM
Comparable example:

2002 MB E55 MSRP $71,350

2003 E55 AMG MSRP $76,000 New Body Style Supercharged, Big Brembo brakes
Dest charges not included.

That's approximately an 8% increase. An 8% increase over the base 2007 V1 ($51,425) would make the V2 cost $55539.

csp3000
05-30-08, 08:55 PM
Comparable example:

2002 MB E55 MSRP $71,350

2003 E55 AMG MSRP $76,000 New Body Style Supercharged, Big Brembo brakes
Dest charges not included.

That's approximately an 8% increase. An 8% increase over the base 2007 V1 ($51,425) would make the V2 cost $55539.

I donít think thatís the right comparison. In the case of the 04-07 CTS V to 09 CTSV. The better comparison would be the E39 M5 to the E60 M5. The leaps in technology & fit and finish are far more drastic then in your MB comparison. A 2003 E39 loaded went for about $70,000 msrp. A 05-08 E60 loaded goes for $92,305 msrp. That is quite a jump and is more fitting due to the technology gains, performance gains, and fit and finish then the MB comparison you raised.

Dr Chill
05-30-08, 09:27 PM
I don’t think that’s the right comparison. In the case of the 04-07 CTS V to 09 CTSV. The better comparison would be the E39 M5 to the E60 M5. The leaps in technology & fit and finish are far more drastic then in your MB comparison. A 2003 E39 loaded went for about $70,000 msrp. A 05-08 E60 loaded goes for $92,305 msrp. That is quite a jump and is more fitting due to the technology gains, performance gains, and fit and finish then the MB comparison you raised.

First, don't compare loaded to loaded, use base MSRP to base. Second, the technology used in the V1 and V2 is not dramatically different. The LS6 and the LSA are very similar motors which have comparable production costs except for the addition of the blower; the TR-6060 tranny is an improved version of the T-56 capable of handling more hp-again with similar production costs. Yes, the quality of interior materials and plastic is dramatically better. The W211 2003 MB E55 had very similar improvements to motor and tranny as the V2. The motor and tranny differences between the two M5's on the other hand is drastic-V8 to V10 and manual tranny to SMG gearbox (both with significantly higher production costs).

As much as I'd love the V2 to start at $55,000, I suspect that the supercharger, brake upgrade, plastic and leather upgrades will place the V2 around $60K to start which is more like a 16% increase.

csp3000
05-31-08, 12:39 AM
First, don't compare loaded to loaded, use base MSRP to base. Second, the technology used in the V1 and V2 is not dramatically different. The LS6 and the LSA are very similar motors which have comparable production costs except for the addition of the blower; the TR-6060 tranny is an improved version of the T-56 capable of handling more hp-again with similar production costs. Yes, the quality of interior materials and plastic is dramatically better. The W211 2003 MB E55 had very similar improvements to motor and tranny as the V2. The motor and tranny differences between the two M5's on the other hand is drastic-V8 to V10 and manual tranny to SMG gearbox (both with significantly higher production costs).

As much as I'd love the V2 to start at $55,000, I suspect that the supercharger, brake upgrade, plastic and leather upgrades will place the V2 around $60K to start which is more like a 16% increase.

Listen you bring up valid points but I have to disagree with you still. First granted the E39 V8 to E60 V10 is a substantial leap in technology but if you think that all the LSA is 6.2 liter version of the LS6 I believe you are wrong. Yes it is the same basic concept but it is a whole new class of engine and new technology was put into that engine. Second the MP1900 is cutting edge stuff when it come to roots type forced induction. This blower isnít even in the same class as anything Magnuson has done before. Read up on it and you will see how amazing this blower is. It is just as efficient as a turbo with very little heat sink problems and capable of tremendous power. The T6060 also is not just a beefed up T56. The T6060 include wider gears for increased torque capacity, higher-capacity synchronizers, finer splines and machined teeth for the dog clutches, and new single-piece shift forks. For increased stiffness at the front of the transmission, the oil-circulating pump has been moved inside the case and its flow rate has been increased by 15%. Various ribs, reinforcements, and flange thicknesses are increased, and the countershaft is a new, more robust single-piece design. Differential ring and pinion gears are now shot-peened twice for enhanced durability, and the span between their support bearings has been increased to the Z06 dimension. All said an done, over 90% of the components are altered from the T56 transmission. There was also a 10% reduction in motion and effort. The brakes are the same as the ZR1ís but only not in carbon ceramic. Also when I priced out the two cars the 05-08 M5 was with the 6sp manual not the SMG as it is an option this year in 08. That is again why I think the BMW is a better comparison to the Cadillac because of how different the 04-07 CTS V is to the 09 CTS V in every way. Combine all this with interior appointments and even 75,000 seems like a steal for a car of this caliber and performance.

V-Love
05-31-08, 01:28 AM
It's not going to be $70 grand, people. Seriously.

I like hearing that. I meant fully loaded, of course.
The price of metal has really gone up though.

StealthV
05-31-08, 09:40 AM
With material prices through the roof and SUV/pickup sales in the toilet, GM doesn't need another car that loses money.

The car is a steal at $80k. Don't like it? Buy a G8 or _____.

1fstkde
05-31-08, 12:50 PM
With material prices through the roof and SUV/pickup sales in the toilet, GM doesn't need another car that loses money.

The car is a steal at $80k. Don't like it? Buy a G8 or _____.
sorry if its 80k...im gone..and its not that i cant afford it, just dont think a ctsv should be that high..just like the clk 63 sticker at 138k...SICK AZZ CAR, but its still a clk..now you can find them selling for 30k less...

Dr Chill
05-31-08, 01:35 PM
Listen you bring up valid points but I have to disagree with you still. First granted the E39 V8 to E60 V10 is a substantial leap in technology but if you think that all the LSA is 6.2 liter version of the LS6 I believe you are wrong. Yes it is the same basic concept but it is a whole new class of engine and new technology was put into that engine. Second the MP1900 is cutting edge stuff when it come to roots type forced induction. This blower isn’t even in the same class as anything Magnuson has done before. Read up on it and you will see how amazing this blower is. It is just as efficient as a turbo with very little heat sink problems and capable of tremendous power. The T6060 also is not just a beefed up T56. The T6060 include wider gears for increased torque capacity, higher-capacity synchronizers, finer splines and machined teeth for the dog clutches, and new single-piece shift forks. For increased stiffness at the front of the transmission, the oil-circulating pump has been moved inside the case and its flow rate has been increased by 15%. Various ribs, reinforcements, and flange thicknesses are increased, and the countershaft is a new, more robust single-piece design. Differential ring and pinion gears are now shot-peened twice for enhanced durability, and the span between their support bearings has been increased to the Z06 dimension. All said an done, over 90% of the components are altered from the T56 transmission. There was also a 10% reduction in motion and effort. The brakes are the same as the ZR1’s but only not in carbon ceramic. Also when I priced out the two cars the 05-08 M5 was with the 6sp manual not the SMG as it is an option this year in 08. That is again why I think the BMW is a better comparison to the Cadillac because of how different the 04-07 CTS V is to the 09 CTS V in every way. Combine all this with interior appointments and even 75,000 seems like a steal for a car of this caliber and performance.

I'm not arguing that at $75,000 the car still isn't a bargain compared to its German competition. The points you make about the technology being better are true, but that doesn't mean higher production costs. The base LS3 motor is very similar to the LS6 but has many design improvements and higher dispalcement. The TR-6060 has many upgraded components to the T-56 but cost new to GM is similar (although T-56 is no longer being produced). The real increased cost lies in the added things such as the supercharger, HDD, better calipers and rotors, better plastics, better rear end, etc. There is not a $20,000 difference in production costs. Probably more in the vicinity of 10,000. That would put it in the low 60's. Sales volume in today's gas price driven market, would be much higher if the car runs $65K loaded, rather than $75K loaded.

Whatever the cost, I'm still buying one.

csp3000
05-31-08, 01:51 PM
Whatever the cost, I'm still buying one.

That my friend is something that we are in total agreement with!...:yup:

Jpjr
05-31-08, 05:04 PM
This car is no longer a bargain at loaded $70k. You can call it a bargain by the sum of its components compared with other vehicles, but the concept is more psychological than that. It just doesn't feel like a deal at that price point with the perception of Cadillac compared with much more established German rivals. How do you know the quality will be there? How do you know it will carve corners and hold its own performance wise? How do you know resale won't plummet after a few years? The reality is that the V2 will need a deep sales base at its price point to really offer value. Otherwise it will simply feel like an over-priced STS-V.

Like some have said, there are more than enough people at the $60-80k price point that can afford a V2. So if sales don't increase, you can assume that people are not finding this car a "bargain" at its price point compared with the alternatives, for the reasons I described above.

JEM
05-31-08, 06:54 PM
This car is no longer a bargain at loaded $70k.

GM doesn't need to make the car a bargain. GM needs to ensure there are no excuses, no reasons the car isn't worth whatever they price it at no matter whether that's $65K or $80K.

As noted before, if they can sticker it in the low $70Ks and still make enough off it to cover their costs (including the costs of servicing a customer base likely to find every potential point of mechanical weakness in the car) then I think they're doing quite well.

jasaero
05-31-08, 07:41 PM
It's a bargain at $70k no doubt about it. Just like the DI V6 is a bargain compared to a 535i. The first gen CTS's had short comings that were pretty obvious to the BMW's, but this newest one is extremely tough to call an inferior product to a 5-series. The CTS-V will be equal or better than an M5 in about every metric one cares to compare. Any aspect that might be short on it will be so close it will be a matter of debate that is actually lacking. Really think the only thing you can get on an M5 I wish you could get on a CTS-V are the rear sun shades.

anim8orCTSV
05-31-08, 11:45 PM
It seems to me that the 09 CTS-V is lined up to be the best Sport Sedan ever made (especially for an American manufacturer).

I hope they don't go crazy and crank it up past 60 or 80k. If that is what they are doing in hopes of getting (and counting on) the "M" and "AMG" owners to convert over, I'm not sure that would be a great idea. For some of them it is more impressive that they are driving a German car.

I'd say the best thing is to keep it close to where it is (look how many of us there are now). If we could afford the current V then they have a lock on the majority of us when the new V is available. I mean, how many of us that love this car could see ourselves driving anything else.

I am loosing the V soon and I will have to wait until September to November for the 09. I put my deposit down without knowing the Sticker price. I just wanted to hold my place in line. But if they go crazy and price it as high as an STS-V then I will have to get my check back and start looking for something else (Please God NO).

That being said how could they price it at 70 to 80k? That would directly compete with the STS-V.

One final thought, when the Coupe Comes out in a V how do you think it will effect the sales of the Sedan? Would they plummet or would they just get new customers who never wanted 4 doors in the first place.

-Paul
anim8orCTSV

JEM
06-01-08, 12:48 AM
That being said how could they price it at 70 to 80k? That would directly compete with the STS-V.


I don't think the STS-V in its current flavor has a future.

It isn't a hardcore sports sedan, but it isn't special enough, doesn't smell good enough, to appeal to the Jag XJR buyer. It astounded me that they kept the same cheap seats as the CTS-V (and the one I drove had lousy perforated-leather center inserts that made the seats truly useless for anything but straight-ahead motoring, not sure if the alcantara was even available in the car.)

Is there a 'culture war' inside Cadillac for the 'soul' of the V badge? Because at this point I think we can say the four-cam guys have lost and if there's a future for the STS-V it's in making sure the LSA and future derivations thereof are up to $80K+ pillow-sedan standards of NVH and driveability.



One final thought, when the Coupe Comes out in a V how do you think it will effect the sales of the Sedan? Would they plummet or would they just get new customers who never wanted 4 doors in the first place.


I would never consider a coupe; I have a hard enough time accepting another sedan. For me, the new V's competition is a year-or-two-old E63 wagon. Or an R63 if the gods smile on me and I find one (of, supposedly, a whole 44 sold in the US) that's not black.

Dr Chill
06-01-08, 01:12 AM
Or an R63 if the gods smile on me and I find one (of, supposedly, a whole 44 sold in the US) that's not black.

You're kidding about the R63, right? Gee, let me think...

R63.......CTS-V........I'd have to go with the V. If you really want a R Class, just pick up one of those R350's for like $299 a month.

v84life
06-01-08, 01:38 AM
You're kidding about the R63, right? Gee, let me think...

R63.......CTS-V........I'd have to go with the V. If you really want a R Class, just pick up one of those R350's for like $299 a month.

Ha ha, my sister can't wait to get out of hers... She got one of those R350 specials. Went to a ball game tonight in it. That thing is a big o pile.:ill:

Jpjr
06-01-08, 07:29 PM
It's a bargain at $70k no doubt about it. Just like the DI V6 is a bargain compared to a 535i. The first gen CTS's had short comings that were pretty obvious to the BMW's, but this newest one is extremely tough to call an inferior product to a 5-series. The CTS-V will be equal or better than an M5 in about every metric one cares to compare. Any aspect that might be short on it will be so close it will be a matter of debate that is actually lacking. Really think the only thing you can get on an M5 I wish you could get on a CTS-V are the rear sun shades.

This is not objective, because the facts have not yet spoken. How do you measure quality without the facts? Half of a luxary sedan sale is quality and reputation, not just componentry. A big part of that is the total ownership experience, including the level of service. At $70k, even if the componentry is simialr, no one will label "bargain" to this car unless it screams quality, fit-and-finish, and high resale value. Cadillac is improving but still hasn't nailed these. Until they do, they will need to keep haircutting the price to compensate.

chris1268
06-02-08, 09:14 AM
This is not objective, because the facts have not yet spoken. How do you measure quality without the facts? Half of a luxary sedan sale is quality and reputation, not just componentry. A big part of that is the total ownership experience, including the level of service. At $70k, even if the componentry is simialr, no one will label "bargain" to this car unless it screams quality, fit-and-finish, and high resale value. Cadillac is improving but still hasn't nailed these. Until they do, they will need to keep haircutting the price to compensate.

Spoken Perfectly.

JEM
06-02-08, 12:31 PM
Spoken Perfectly.

No, there's a couple misspellings in there.

I think resale value is a bit of a red herring right now, one could argue that on something like a V it's very heavily dependent on gas prices and even very good expensive iron like 750is are getting dumped cheap by people who now (horrors!) have to pay real money to run the things.

But otherwise the sentiment is pretty much on target.

anim8orCTSV
06-02-08, 11:29 PM
So I went to the dealer today to make sure they have me down for a manual transmission. While I was there I asked if there was anything new on the price.

Basically he said there was no new news on it yet but that it will go for market value. Well above sticker.

Nice, they don't even know the price yet and they are already jacking it up.

I had my V serviced at this dealer but I went 50 miles away to buy it. Anyone know of a real V dealer in Southern California that would be better to work with. Preferably someone on this list, someone that KNOWS these cars. I would rather give them my business.

-Paul
anim8orCTSV

lawfive
06-03-08, 05:00 AM
I guarantee you: nobody knows these cars like Cadillac Tony. I plan to talk to him when I buy one next year. He's a long way from California but if the markups are high in SoCal, the shipping costs may look like a bargain.

Cadillac Tony
06-03-08, 09:04 AM
Thanks, Lawfive! Coming from the guy who slid right under the rear bumper of the '09 at NAIAS to take a look at the diff (much to shock of the factory rep :lol:), I appreciate the compliment.

For people paying cash or financing (out of state leases are tricky), it doesn't matter where you are- catch a one-way flight and get to know your new V by driving it home.

lewisforjesus
06-03-08, 12:11 PM
Tony, don't you think that would be a good idea for the CTS also ? Lewis

(I can't afford a CTS-V, but find this very interesting reading).

Cadillac Tony
06-03-08, 12:29 PM
Absolutely, Lewis. I know some dealers are still not very flexible on CTS pricing, so drop me an email through my web site if I can help out (just click on my signature picture).

GNSCOTT
06-03-08, 06:42 PM
C5 Z06 went from $52k to now $70k. It was $65k the first year then GM jacked the price up $5k because they could.

It will be like when I ordered my 04 V, at least 50% of the dealers will sell with no mark up and the other 50% may sucker some people for a couple of months or be stuck with the car until it has to go to msrp. The 300 SRT-8 had a much longer stay above msrp (I would say 6 months) but I do not think it will happen with a $70k caddy. GM basically leaked the $62k number and there will be some egg on their face if it turns out to be $70k starting price.

lewisforjesus
06-03-08, 08:05 PM
Absolutely, Lewis. I know some dealers are still not very flexible on CTS pricing, so drop me an email through my web site if I can help out (just click on my signature picture).

I emailed you Tony. Look forward to communicating with you. Lewis

Jpjr
06-03-08, 10:12 PM
Just checked in again, two dealerships in CA of all places offerring MSRP. Buyer beware if a dealer is trying to pick off > sticker.

1fstkde
06-03-08, 10:22 PM
Just checked in again, two dealerships in CA of all places offerring MSRP. Buyer beware if a dealer is trying to pick off > sticker.
casa or martin??? any of these dealerships??

anim8orCTSV
06-04-08, 12:40 AM
Which dealers are you talking about?

Please let me know. PM if you need to.

-Paul
anim8orCTSV

Kadonny
06-04-08, 10:53 AM
Come on people, listen to Tony, my god so far he has been right on most aspects (if not all) of the car....right?

So my stance is with him. Base price on this car will be high 50's to low 60's with a fully loaded car maybe at 65-67k.

anim8orCTSV
06-04-08, 04:00 PM
Cool. Now if I could find a dealer that doesn't want to jack up the price "way above sticker" then I would be really happy.

-Paul
anim8orCTSV

GNSCOTT
06-04-08, 09:02 PM
I can promise you that there is not a dealer that knows what the price is. GM is waiting to see what it will cost. Materials have gone up a lot in the past 4 months and it will not get any better. The magazine prices are usually leaked GM prices. If the rags shoot too low Gm would have to jump in so people are not disapointed if it is much higher. Now that production has been pushed back it could effect price. GM may start out low like they did on the Z06 to get attention, then raise prices quicker than usual.

Dr Chill
06-04-08, 09:09 PM
I spoke to the sales manager at my dealership today while he was in a meeting with the regional sales rep. He said there is no official word on pricing and that order guides will be open to place orders later this month. He denied that orders have already been placed.

Cadillac Tony
06-04-08, 09:12 PM
Order guides have been up for some time now, but no prices are being shown yet. Any Dealer who claims to have placed an order is either mistaken or dishonest, as the system will not accept them.

I know because I keep trying. Somewhere at GM there's an IT guy laughing at me.

Dr Chill
06-04-08, 09:12 PM
I can promise you that there is not a dealer that knows what the price is. GM is waiting to see what it will cost. Materials have gone up a lot in the past 4 months and it will not get any better. The magazine prices are usually leaked GM prices. If the rags shoot too low Gm would have to jump in so people are not disapointed if it is much higher. Now that production has been pushed back it could effect price. GM may start out low like they did on the Z06 to get attention, then raise prices quicker than usual.

GM raised the price because dealers were selling cars above sticker and had a long waiting list for cars. I doubt that they will have the same problem now with the CTS-V with present market conditions.

lawfive
06-04-08, 09:38 PM
Problem? :lol:

v84life
06-05-08, 12:31 AM
What problem:hmm:

GNSCOTT
06-06-08, 09:53 PM
GM raised the price because dealers were selling cars above sticker and had a long waiting list for cars. I doubt that they will have the same problem now with the CTS-V with present market conditions.

Well now that they are having troubles selling them they are still raising msrp. I think they raised it 3 times on the 08 model and sure to raise it when the 09's come out. I just got mine at $10,600 off sticker. Materials are going through the roof so GM will not release prices until they have to. Some people also beleive that GM purposely underprices the Z06 the first year to help with press. i would bot be shocked to see GM do the same with the new V. Sell it at cost or a little unser, raise the msrp at a more accelerated rate than usual.

StealthV
06-07-08, 12:33 AM
With the dollar continuing to fall against the euro, new 'Bahnburners are going to be much more expensive along with the flipside of used ones holding their values extremely well. This should make new Vs more attactive and gain segment market share.

Better buy your new V soon; it may be just like the early 70s all over again with the death of big power automobiles.

Jpjr
06-07-08, 01:54 AM
With the dollar continuing to fall against the euro, new 'Bahnburners are going to be much more expensive along with the flipside of used ones holding their values extremely well. This should make new Vs more attactive and gain segment market share.

Better buy your new V soon; it may be just like the early 70s all over again with the death of big power automobiles.

well, i think the people that can afford a V will not have a problem with gas but you are right it will no doubt affect the number of people now in this category.

i am seeing V for MSRP in norther CA, call around the bay area. don't want to give away my specific dealer because i have yet to put down a deposit because to your point MSRP has still not been released and it may just be too high for me. i may wait for GMS pricing or a nice discout from MSRP.

StealthV
06-07-08, 11:10 AM
Paying sticker or above is ok if you must have the first one on the block and are willing to pay for the hype. The patient folks will wait 2-6 months and get one for much, much less ($10k+ off sticker if V1 history repeats itself).

With premium pushing $5/gal, who will buy a 575 hp V, with wide PS2 summer only tires on it, in the northern half of the country with snow and ice on the ground when the car is finally introduced?

Big dollar cars wearing summer only tires and big engines with their perceived bad fuel economy may be a tough sell come winter.

Dr Chill
06-07-08, 06:19 PM
The automatic tranny and beautiful new look for the CTS has changed everything. The potential market for the car is much greater. I suspect demand will lessen after 6 months, but not to the point of $10,000 off MSRP.

JEM
06-08-08, 03:55 AM
P
With premium pushing $5/gal, who will buy a 575 hp V, with wide PS2 summer only tires on it, in the northern half of the country with snow and ice on the ground when the car is finally introduced?

Big dollar cars wearing summer only tires and big engines with their perceived bad fuel economy may be a tough sell come winter.

If you can afford $70K for a car you can afford another set of wheels with snow tires on 'em. The car would be severely compromised by less-grippy tires the rest of the year (and us out here on the coast don't want to be stuck with all-season crap anyway.)

At a $.10-.15 spread between grades the relative price difference of premium is far smaller now than it was at $1.50/gallon. Of course, out here in California the best we get from normal stations is 91 AKI crap anyway.

I'm kinda expecting that we'll be back in the low $3-something range within a year; I'm not in the oil business, but no one in that business seems to have a clue either.

StealthV
06-08-08, 02:34 PM
There are those who know how to play the game that will purchase for signifcantly under sticker. Watch bigjimsho or even me... ;)

Expensive fuel, summer only tires and a "big engine" are turn-offs for those who are not V gearheads like us. Level of disposable income matters not.

1fstkde
06-08-08, 02:45 PM
Paying sticker or above is ok if you must have the first one on the block and are willing to pay for the hype. The patient folks will wait 2-6 months and get one for much, much less ($10k+ off sticker if V1 history repeats itself).

With premium pushing $5/gal, who will buy a 575 hp V, with wide PS2 summer only tires on it, in the northern half of the country with snow and ice on the ground when the car is finally introduced?

Big dollar cars wearing summer only tires and big engines with their perceived bad fuel economy may be a tough sell come winter.
if it does not effect you right now in the short term, it will begin to affect you. How?

Example A : Big company : consumers spend less to buy x amount of product from you = Big company see's sales drop and less sales = less to pay employeeís = reduction of bonus, reduction of pay, and layoffs. No more vacations or nice things, wife *****es and moans.

Example B : Sole prop and small companies, Less customers , shops need to be closed to cover expenses and employees see less work and layoffs

Example C : Individual consumers, screwed and then inflation sets in as prices for every thing go up casuses less money to be spent back into the economic cycle, time to move back in with parents to cover expenses.

Cycle of economics......................................:ra nt2:

SoCal-VEE
06-09-08, 12:37 AM
The car is a steal at $80k. Don't like it? Buy a G8 or _____.

....wait 2-6 months and get one for $10k+ off sticker. :confused:

JEM
06-09-08, 01:01 AM
....wait 2-6 months and get one for $10k+ off sticker. :confused:

I'd like to say "sounds good to me" - considering I'm not going to buy the first of anything anyway - but I would like to see GM do better with the car than that.

v84life
06-09-08, 01:05 AM
67k loaded.:cloud9:

anim8orCTSV
06-10-08, 12:53 PM
I just got off the phone with a couple dealers in Southern California. Both of them are selling at MSRP. So I can get my deposit back from the dealer that was going to be selling it to me at "Market Price"

Glad I took the time to call around.

-Paul
anim8orCTSV

figgie
06-14-08, 02:32 PM
lol at msrp payers.........

Jpjr
06-14-08, 04:24 PM
I just got off the phone with a couple dealers in Southern California. Both of them are selling at MSRP. So I can get my deposit back from the dealer that was going to be selling it to me at "Market Price"

Glad I took the time to call around.

-Paul
anim8orCTSV



Good work, this is consistent with what i have been seeing.

Barry626
08-12-09, 11:37 PM
It's not going to be $70 grand, people. Seriously.

Looks like you were not correct?
Most options for sure totals over $70,000.

aco
08-13-09, 01:04 AM
Looks like you were not correct?
Most options for sure totals over $70,000.

I think Tony was referring to the base price, not fully loaded, regarding the $70k price. Fully loaded 2009 MSRP was already over $70k. Take a look at his recent thread about 2010 pricing, etc. http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/176537-2010-pricing-option-changes-facts.html