: Who wants headers?!?!



CadillacSTS42005
05-23-08, 07:47 PM
Ok so I"ve been speaking with Fire and Ice (aka D3 Performance) and they have been prototyping some goodies for a 2006 4.6 N* powered Lucerne including headers.
Sadly again due to lack of interest they are probably going to be only a prototype unless we step in and show our interest.
I know im down, i assume Highline is as well, AJ im sure you Ferrio could use them, and ill bet Submariner would be in.
Anyone else wanna stake a claim?

stbtt
05-23-08, 08:00 PM
I will take some, might take two pair.

Submariner409
05-23-08, 08:08 PM
I would be interested BUT I want to keep my present (stock) cradle/ground clearance. .........and if I converted, it would have to be along with other work because a header job on an 02 STS looks like a partial cradle drop.

(I know, I know: TANSTAAFL..........)

CadillacSTS42005
05-23-08, 08:09 PM
yup it would require that
nows a good time to blow your HGS there Sub hahahaha

Highline Cady
05-23-08, 08:56 PM
I'd be interested also, but not just for pipes, some engineering would have to take place, you know some sort of tuning. I could afford to lose a little ground clearance but that would also be an issue for me depending how they would be done, and I can only see 1 way, and that'll cut away too much ground clearance.

Oh ya, and of course, how much? Not paying as much as you did for your prototype chip, in reference compared to what I can get a chip/tune/tuner for. I would feel the same way about the headers, if they are crazy expensive, really then if I really wanted to I could get them done myself, but it would really only be pipes welded together with no specific engineering or testing done.

Nonetheless, nice to see some possible interest in this idea again!!! :thumbsup:

CadillacSTS42005
05-23-08, 09:31 PM
i believe they are going to include a revised pipe all the way to the cat
essentially if you have corsa then this will complete the system other than a cat replacement
i pmed them the link and asked for pics and dyno #s as we all know by now without those this will fizzle fast

Highline Cady
05-23-08, 09:49 PM
Pictures are very important, really there isn't a way not to gain performance with any true header setup, the more it's tested the better the header will be, in all aspects, fit finish, sound quality especially in the cabin ect, it'll be loud as hell w/ a Corsa catback, I don't mind, some will object.

I am curious to see if they use a flat or heavily oval'd pipe.

CadillacSTS42005
05-23-08, 09:53 PM
header gains are the main part of this system
itll be the xover pipe

fubar569
05-24-08, 07:48 AM
to do true headers on these cars...you NEED to go UNDER the pan...no way around it...you can't get a larger crossover pipe in the stock location due to fitment issues, and shorties would be killing the purpose if they used any version of the stock crossover...

Even with my flattened pipe (rectangular shape) you'd stand to lose at least 1.25"...already at the lowest part of the car...realistically it would be a modification for those who don't give a rat's ass about dragging everywhere they go...i fit into that group since i already have a front scoop for the intake that drops the bumper clearance by about 2"...my catback sometimes drags depending on where i'm pulling in and out of because you aren't supposed to have TWO 2.5" pipes in a space meant for ONE...

all in all...i don't see the idea taking off or going very far. if they feel like doing a set with 99 & prior flanges i'd prolly get in on the buy...

CadillacSTS42005
05-24-08, 10:55 AM
like i said
theyve already built them
just need to show the interest to get them into the market

AJxtcman
05-24-08, 12:43 PM
I don't want to spend the time to take on an argument here.

Can someone do the math?

4.6L/2 = 2.3L Use the CFM for the 2.3L then add X amount for heat expansion. This gives you Y CFM. What size pipe is that?
That mean Y + 10% = no gain.
My one and only problem with any front header or Crossover pipe modification is the heat!

Heat kills the Front Mounts, Crank Sensors, Wiring Harnesses, AC compressors, Alternators.

The Heat will cook the oil in the oil pan. I have not seen this Ever in a Northstar oil pan! The Crossover pipe is well insulated.
The Heat will overheat the transmission!

The heat will expand the Aluminum engine block and the transmission case. This can cause parts to expand and have premature failures.

Now back to X, Y, and Z. Can someone do the math? How many CFM does the Crossover need to flow?

CadillacSTS42005
05-24-08, 12:45 PM
i assume they have accounted for this as they are not some backdoor company they are pretty well set up
again i have asked them to post some info and pics we shall see what they do

mighty_quad4
05-24-08, 02:11 PM
I don't want to spend the time to take on an argument here.

Can someone do the math?

4.6L/2 = 2.3L Use the CFM for the 2.3L then add X amount for heat expansion. This gives you Y CFM. What size pipe is that?
That mean Y + 10% = no gain.
My one and only problem with any front header or Crossover pipe modification is the heat!

Heat kills the Front Mounts, Crank Sensors, Wiring Harnesses, AC compressors, Alternators.

The Heat will cook the oil in the oil pan. I have not seen this Ever in a Northstar oil pan! The Crossover pipe is well insulated.
The Heat will overheat the transmission!

The heat will expand the Aluminum engine block and the transmission case. This can cause parts to expand and have premature failures.

Now back to X, Y, and Z. Can someone do the math? How many CFM does the Crossover need to flow?

short answer is 2.5" tubing is ample, 2.25" for a stock to near stock engine.

you can have the tube and headers ceramic coated to reduce temps. that should alleviate any heat concerns.

i have not looked at the front side of the engine, but it should be possible to fab up a shorty header that ends at the stock location, then utilize the stock cross over [ depending on stock size of which i dont know ] or use a 2.5" version to simplfy things.


i personally would not run any exhaust tubing under my car's oil pan or anything that will reduce ground clearance. i own a 69 Barracuda with non TTi headers. ie, the run thru the steering linkage and hang down extremely low, as in ~4" of ground clearance. i have smashed 2 sets of headers because of it. never again will i go thru the hassle of low ground clearance even if the car runs low 12s on street tires. not worth it.

AJxtcman
05-24-08, 03:05 PM
short answer is 2.5" tubing is ample, 2.25" for a stock to near stock engine.

you can have the tube and headers ceramic coated to reduce temps. that should alleviate any heat concerns.

i have not looked at the front side of the engine, but it should be possible to fab up a shorty header that ends at the stock location, then utilize the stock cross over [ depending on stock size of which i dont know ] or use a 2.5" version to simplfy things.


i personally would not run any exhaust tubing under my car's oil pan or anything that will reduce ground clearance. i own a 69 Barracuda with non TTi headers. ie, the run thru the steering linkage and hang down extremely low, as in ~4" of ground clearance. i have smashed 2 sets of headers because of it. never again will i go thru the hassle of low ground clearance even if the car runs low 12s on street tires. not worth it.

YOU HAVE NO CLUE!

I mean that in many ways!

To help you out I will post some pictures.

It must be all about that heavy cast Iron manifold that I have read about

BTW 1/2 PSI back pressure will set a misfire DTC

ejguillot
05-24-08, 03:53 PM
I would be interested, IF the price is something I can afford, the ground clearance isn't affected, and the headers are coated or such to keep the heat inside the pipes.

I'm not asking for too much, am I? :bigroll:

AJxtcman
05-24-08, 04:13 PM
This is the rear exhaust manifold for a 98+ Seville or a 00+ Deville
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Northstar/Exhaust/HPIM3618.jpg

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Northstar/Exhaust/HPIM3619.jpg

This is the front exhaust manifold for most 93 to 05 or current FWDs
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Northstar/Exhaust/HPIM3620.jpg

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Northstar/Exhaust/HPIM3621.jpg

AJxtcman
05-24-08, 04:17 PM
This is the front exhaust manifold on the head with the motor mount braket. Keep in mind that the oil filter is located on the left side of the bracket.
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Northstar/Exhaust/HPIM3622.jpg

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Northstar/Exhaust/HPIM3623.jpg

AJxtcman
05-24-08, 04:39 PM
This is the Crossover
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Northstar/Exhaust/HPIM3634.jpg

It has a heat shield and is packed with asbestos
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Northstar/Exhaust/HPIM3635.jpg

This is the the end that the front manifold slides into
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Northstar/Exhaust/HPIM3636.jpg

This is the Crossover mounted to the lower case half and oil pan
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Northstar/Exhaust/HPIM3624.jpg

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Northstar/Exhaust/HPIM3625.jpg

This is the Crossover in between the oil pan and the brace that goes between the oil pan and trans
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Northstar/Exhaust/HPIM3626.jpg

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Northstar/Exhaust/HPIM3627.jpg

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Northstar/Exhaust/HPIM3628.jpg

This is the Crossover going up between the engine and trans
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Northstar/Exhaust/HPIM3629.jpg

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Northstar/Exhaust/HPIM3630.jpg

This is the Crossover coming out above the trans
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Northstar/Exhaust/HPIM3631.jpg

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Northstar/Exhaust/HPIM3632.jpg

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Northstar/Exhaust/HPIM3633.jpg

Stop with the PIPE dreams!

CadillacSTS42005
05-24-08, 06:34 PM
lol
as i said
we shall see what D3 has cooked up...

tateos
05-27-08, 04:23 PM
Nice pics AJ - you're really getting good!

stngh8r
06-05-08, 01:34 PM
Interested

Submariner409
06-05-08, 04:53 PM
AJ, One of the biggies driving this header thing is often overlooked: We're dealing with a ~280 c.i. engine and it's exhaust flow.

A Northstar 4.6 IS NOT a 302, 305, 327, 383, 409, 440, 455. It is a LITTLE V-8 that does remarkably well in the HP/displacement ratio. It's actually smaller than a 1962 Chevy 283. This breed of Northstars gets their efficiency and power from RPM, not torque. 2300 rpm at highway cruise (70) for a 3.71 final STS is way up the rpm scale for a V-8. If you have no cubes you have to spin it. (and the exhaust system is perfectly adequate for its intended purpose.)

BUT, a cleverly designed set of 1 3/4" tube headers would definitely free up the top 500-800 rpm. BUT, TANSTAAFL.....those headers would have to be equal length tubes into a good collector into true duals in order to get that last bit of GO. Maybe, just maybe the old Tri-Y setup would work, too, but working with the sidewinder in a daily driver Seville makes that pipe dream just that: a pipe dream.

AlBundy
06-05-08, 05:15 PM
Let's all put on($$$) for a STS-V and take turns driving it.:hide:

Submariner409
06-05-08, 05:21 PM
Far more cost effective to tow your '67 396 Camaro to the track or show with your STS.

dwight.j.carter
06-05-08, 06:06 PM
I'm interested but not in dropping the cradle and not in losing ground clearence.

dkozloski
06-05-08, 06:36 PM
As tightly packed as the factory installation is already, do you suppose if it was easy to increase the size of everything GM would have done it? It looks to me like the only viable option is to run short stacks out through ports in the fenders or hood.

eldorado1
06-05-08, 07:41 PM
As tightly packed as the factory installation is already, do you suppose if it was easy to increase the size of everything GM would have done it?

No.

The reason is simple. One of the upper echelons says "give me a cadillac with 300hp"... and the engineers deliver 300hp.

Think about how much extra cost it would have been to hydroform exhaust manifolds that looked more like shorty headers than a conventional "log" style manifold.

Pennies, if that. They didn't do it because it already had enough power.

If you can do 1.75" primaries and stainless, I would be in. I don't know how to get around the crossover problem. I think if a pipe was coated inside and out with ceramic, it should keep the heat in well enough, and still manage to fit a larger (2.5") pipe in the tunnel.

http://memimage.cardomain.com/member_images/4/web/520000-520999/520005_170.jpg

dkozloski
06-05-08, 08:32 PM
No.

The reason is simple. One of the upper echelons says "give me a cadillac with 300hp"... and the engineers deliver 300hp.

Think about how much extra cost it would have been to hydroform exhaust manifolds that looked more like shorty headers than a conventional "log" style manifold.

Pennies, if that. They didn't do it because it already had enough power.

If you can do 1.75" primaries and stainless, I would be in. I don't know how to get around the crossover problem. I think if a pipe was coated inside and out with ceramic, it should keep the heat in well enough, and still manage to fit a larger (2.5") pipe in the tunnel.

http://memimage.cardomain.com/member_images/4/web/520000-520999/520005_170.jpg
The GM installation doesn't just have to keep most of the heat in. The whole installation has to survive 100 MPH on a 100 degree day with a 100MPH following wind. If it doesn't work the car burns up. I can't believe how you guys minimize the efforts of the engineers that get this stuff to work with absolute reliability. I'd hate to see the car that would result from the eyeball engineering crowd. There are dozens of engineers with their reputations on the line that agonize over this stuff day after day. It doesn't make sense that some clown that learned everything he knows about cars off the internet is going to throw something together from the scrap pile that will out peform it safely.

eldorado1
06-05-08, 09:02 PM
Sorry, but a 4.6L Cadillac V8 is not the end all of performance. 300hp from 4.6L is nothing to sneeze at, but 100hp/L is common in luxury cars.

If you want to see what the Northstar could have been, take a look at the new M3 V8. http://www.worldcarfans.com/2070322.001/new-bmw-m3-v8-engine-in-detail

4.0L DOHC V8 with 420hp. Before you say, "4L? 420hp? It's probably a torqueless wonder..." consider that it has 300lb-ft of torque at 3900rpm, which is more than the 275hp version of the northstar has. If that's not an engineering marvel, I don't know what is.

It has ion sensing, which is instantaneous cylinder feedback, reporting air:fuel ratio, preignition and detonation AS IT HAPPENS, and maximizes torque through the optimization of spark timing through all conditions on the fly. Something that should have been on early 90's GMs, let alone luxury brands like Cadillac. The circuitry could have been built into the ignition coils for the cost of a knock sensor, and added a few horsepower.

No, GM is and always has been a decade behind the ball. That's why they're still building Hummers instead of Prius copies.

BTW, Ion sensing has been around since 1980(?). Allen Cline wrote about it in the northstar calibration development (presumably in the late 80's early 90's).

There is easily another 100hp in a naturally aspirated northstar. I'm not saying there won't be compromises. There always are. Safety doesn't have to be one of them.

Submariner409
06-05-08, 10:18 PM
eldorado1, I have 3 questions:

1. Where did this particular picture come from ? Link ?
2. What vehicle is this engine going to be used in ?
3. If the engine is going into a FWD Seville/Eldorado/Deville daily driver (the subject of this thread), where is the "front" motor mount ?

Thanks for any info..Jim

(No one's knocking hp/L. Look what Ferrari and Lamborghini can do with a 10,000rpm 3L V-12!!!)

Ur7x
06-06-08, 12:06 AM
I'm with AJ on this one...

I'm not sure about the quality of D3 products or their ability to produce anything for a FWD northstar. I have posted and emailed several suggestion and questions to this firm and they have never responded to any of my inquiries.

My experience with this firm is all flash and little substance.

eldorado1
06-06-08, 01:35 AM
1. Where did this particular picture come from ? Link ?
2. What vehicle is this engine going to be used in ?
3. If the engine is going into a FWD Seville/Eldorado/Deville daily driver (the subject of this thread), where is the "front" motor mount ?



http://www.cardomain.com/ride/520005

It's a fiero. If you think a cadillac is tight, this is worse. "if there's a will, there's a way"

On the front motor mount, I don't know if it is not in this picture to show off the headers or if it was relocated. I think it's just off for this picture, because there just aren't any other places to mount the engine in the front.

mighty_quad4
06-06-08, 10:45 AM
here are the rest of the header pics: Clicky (http://www.cardomain.com/ride/520005/2). while you can certainly tell it was an amatuer job, it was done very well given the tools used. that engine bay has more room than the Seville does.

the difficult part here in making a decent header is the crossover. you could whip up some unequal length shorty headers but connecting them is the challenge. there is zero room to run larger tubing thru the stock route.

msta293412
06-06-08, 12:13 PM
Damn , AJ, is getting all BENT out of shape...pun intended.... :-)

Submariner409
06-06-08, 01:08 PM
:banghead:.....just don't lose sight of the fact that the headers being discussed were not designed for and will never fit in a daily driver FWD Seville/Eldorado/Deville nor will you be able to successfully install a true dual exhaust system/H/X in the same series car. AJ's series of pictures graphically shows several problems which need to be addressed in the Northstar FWD exhaust system, and do not include the clearance problem from the front of the cat to the existing Y pipe.

Don't get me wrong: I have the desire and wherewithal to install headers and piping if the job could be done successfully and not jeopardize reliability.

Fire and Ice
06-06-08, 02:05 PM
Hello and thank you for your interest in the headers we have produced for the FWD 4.6L NS motor. Our particular model was a 2006 Buick Lucerne. We built a custom set of headers for a customer who wants about 400 hp from his motor. These custom headers use a custom crossover pipe that goes under the pan as many of you have figured out. We use a special thermal coating on our exhaust pipes to reduce heat transfer to surrounding components. I have not had a chance to dyno tune this vehicle yet, as we have been swamped getting ready for the Cadillac Performance Experience event next weekend. When things calm down a bit, we'll be back on the Lucerne and when I have the dyno numbers, I'll post them for everyone to see.

As per my discussion with CadillacSTS2003, for D3 to put these prototype headers into production we would need at least ten or more people to commit to purchasing the headers. The more people involved, the better chance this has of happening at a reasonable cost. If anyone is interested in the headers and/or has any questions, please feel free to contact me directly either here by PM or by email/phone. Thank you again.

And for Ur7x... I've never received an email from you. Who did you email?

CadillacSTS42005
06-06-08, 02:19 PM
there you have it ladies and gents
so lets get this ball rolling!!!!

Highline Cady
06-06-08, 02:24 PM
Price? Stainless? Coated? Ground clearance? Price?

Submariner409
06-06-08, 03:04 PM
Will they fit in a daily driver FWD Seville with no change in ground clearance or cat-back modification ?

:stirpot: 2003 is obviously going to take his STS off the street and use it track-only, so the fitment is of no concern, but what about the majority of those who would use their FWD Seville/Deville/Eldorado (not Lucerne) for general personal driving ???

I know I'm being snitsy, but this thread is about your car and mine, not a Fiero, Lucerne, sand rail, or engine on an auto show chrome stand.

Fire and Ice
06-06-08, 03:40 PM
There will be a small reduction in ground clearance, but that section is between the front wheels. As the car goes up and over a speed bump, so does the crossover section. Unless your vehicle is slammed to the ground, ground clearance for normal driving should not be a problem. If your vehicle IS lowered to that extent, then I suspect it's no longer a daily driver. The crossover/Y-pipe section can be made to bolt up directly to the back of the catalytic convertor should you wish to use the factory cat back system, although I would recommend an aftermarket cat back system for best performance.

No price available yet for the headers. If we're using a thermal coating on the headers, then I would imagine stainless pipes would be a waste.

Submariner409
06-06-08, 03:58 PM
OK. Good info. On my late '02 STS, F55 suspension, CORSA cat-back, the cradle-to-ground clearance is 5 1/2" (level concrete garage floor). The pan-to-ground clearance is a shade over 6". If a crossover pipe costs 1 1/2" in clearance, then it will come in at 4 1/2" or so and be the lowest point on the car, but as you point out, between the wheels. The later Seville/Deville run uses a 4-bolt front cat flange, so I imagine the collector could be pretty healthy.

CadillacSTS42005
06-06-08, 04:24 PM
i told you guys that they know whats up

D3 cant wait for the pics and the specs
much appreciated guys!

Fire and Ice
06-06-08, 04:28 PM
OK. Good info. On my late '02 STS, F55 suspension, CORSA cat-back, the cradle-to-ground clearance is 5 1/2" (level concrete garage floor). The pan-to-ground clearance is a shade over 6". If a crossover pipe costs 1 1/2" in clearance, then it will come in at 4 1/2" or so and be the lowest point on the car, but as you point out, between the wheels. The later Seville/Deville run uses a 4-bolt front cat flange, so I imagine the collector could be pretty healthy.

Just to be absolutely clear, let me measure the ground clearance we have on this Lucerne which is at stock ride height with factory wheels. I'll repost later.

CadillacSTS42005
06-06-08, 04:32 PM
which size wheels be sure to note that too
as there are 16 17 and 18" wheel options on Lucerne's
overall it shouldnt effect the ride height much but there is always a factor

Submariner409
06-06-08, 05:00 PM
Regardless of wheel diameter, if the factory specified outer tire diameter is maintained it will not affect ride height one mm.

If I put 27.2" wheels with no tires on my STS the resulting ride height will be exactly the same as it is with my current 17X7.5-235/55/17 wheels and tires.

CadillacSTS42005
06-06-08, 05:20 PM
not true Sub
if you look at a diameter calculator (such as i did when considering upgrading from my 16" to 17" wheel on my ETC)
theres is a SLIGHT difference
i believe it threw off the speedo -.02%
just trying to cover as many bases here as possible...

Submariner409
06-06-08, 05:30 PM
Read the first sentence of my post again ".......if the factory specified outer tire diameter is maintained..........".

dwight.j.carter
06-06-08, 05:36 PM
I want to throw on some 18's anyway that would gain me some clearence.

AlBundy
06-06-08, 05:41 PM
I guess the first ten will be the ones with the equipment/skills it takes to do this. If so, post video.

dkozloski
06-06-08, 06:39 PM
Tight fits and torturous routing is nothing new for Cadillac exhaust. Both the intake and exhaust were crammed in between the cylinder banks on my 1939 LaSalle. The exhaust also had some kind of black ceramic coating.

AJxtcman
06-06-08, 07:25 PM
This is the Crossover in between the oil pan and the brace that goes between the oil pan and trans

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Northstar/Exhaust/HPIM3627.jpg


This is the Crossover going up between the engine and trans
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Northstar/Exhaust/HPIM3629.jpg


Stop with the PIPE dreams!


I don't care what anyone says about a special coating.

Someone else can run a car with it for 6000 miles and pull the oil pan off and look inside of it.

I can't remember ever seeing oil burnt to that area of the oil pan!
If someone cooks the oil in the pan after installing the headers then what?

dkozloski
06-06-08, 07:31 PM
You're wasting your breathe AJ. These guys don't want to hear about how tightly this stuff was all crammed together by engineers who knew what they were doing. How well is their system going to flow after they hit a speedbump that mashes the crossover flat?

Raze
06-06-08, 09:45 PM
What's in the oil pan where the crossover is? This is a question for someone who has either removed theirs or has a diagram (my FSMs are sitting at my buddies shop). As long as the oil pump isn't there which it should not be anyway,

Why not make a new oil pan with 1 less qt? These engines have more oil than is necessary anyway, and there's always the old racer's trick to run 50-75% of total oil capacity to free up a couple ponies. I wouldn't do this in a DD but for someone going to all the trouble of serious modification, may as well go all the way...

Ur7x
06-09-08, 07:47 PM
And for Ur7x... I've never received an email from you. Who did you email?

Thanks for the reply...

In 2006 I posted the following suggestions:

Looks like your primary focus is on 2005 and newer vehicles...
A lot of us would like to "play" with some of the older ODBII '98 - 2004 cars.
Any plans?

There are at least 10 people on this forum who would give there left one to remove the speed limiter on a "H" rated STS
Any plans?

I would love to see a kit that will enable Magnaride shocks in an older F45 CVRSS suspension ... these shocks are all going to wear out and the Magna ride shocks/struts are about the same price as the ones with mechanical valves.
Any Plans?

STS company has a cool kit that could remote mount a turbo in these otherwise totally cramped cars... Of course this needs a reprogrammed ECM...
Any plans?

I would love and would pay for a laptop based tool/cable that could emulate a Tech II. Or some other "reasonably priced" scanner that could let me hack my BCM...
Any Plans?

and

Could you guys produce a retrofit DIY kit with instructions to install a OE NAV screen in a 98-2004 car? I for one would happily pay $100 for a short section of wire harness, a five pin connector and 4 or 5 pages of installation instructions. (2 of which would be for the dealer to Tech 2 the radio and the BCM) If I was fairly certain that in the end it would work...
Any Plans?


Since then we have heard nothing on any of these suggestions

In this vacuum of responses...
AJ spent a year and has done #1 & #2 and STS2003 fiddled for about 6 months and figured out the NAV radio thing. So you can drop those from profit opportunites

The remote Turbo would still be cool as would an F55 Upgrade kit...
Or a full Tech II compatible "laptop" software based scanner :cloud9:

A final observation... The 2005-current STS has proven to be a major sales DUD. Year over year, there are less then 1/2 of the 2005-2008 STS on the road then the preceding generation. And this number is getting worse and worse every year. With plans to pull the plug and kill the car in 2010/11 While the 2005+ car might be easier to mod, you will find more customers in the 98-2004 space. Just a thought.

Fire and Ice
06-10-08, 12:33 PM
Thank you all for the input, however it is my understanding at this time D3 does not have any plans to build production mods for the 'older' vehicles. We are currently working very hard to produce parts for the new 2008 CTS and then the 2009 CTS-V. While we do not offer anything from a production stand point, we would certainly be willing to entertain the idea(s) of producing a one off or prototype unit if someone was willing to cover the costs to do so. I am still working on pushing the headers into production, but no promises. In the mean while, should anyone have any other questions please feel free to PM or email me directly. Thank you again.

And for Ur7x I apologize that you never received a response to any of your inquiries. At this point it seems you have all the answers to your questions. (or did I miss one?)

AJxtcman
06-10-08, 02:57 PM
AJ spent a year and has done #1 & #2 and STS2003 fiddled for about 6 months and figured out the NAV radio thing. So you can drop those from profit opportunites



Just so you all know. I have shipped close to 40 PCM's out to customers. I am not talking about the ones in testing or the ones that have been updated, but close to 40 different customers.

Ur7x
06-10-08, 04:04 PM
Thank you all for the input, however it is my understanding at this time D3 does not have any plans to build production mods for the 'older' vehicles. We are currently working very hard to produce parts for the new 2008 CTS and then the 2009 CTS-V. While we do not offer anything from a production stand point, we would certainly be willing to entertain the idea(s) of producing a one off or prototype unit if someone was willing to cover the costs to do so. I am still working on pushing the headers into production, but no promises. In the mean while, should anyone have any other questions please feel free to PM or email me directly. Thank you again.



A fair, understandable, but disappointing POV. Keep in mind that in a sense the 98-40 Sevilles are still in production... GM calls them Lucerns now... Any mechanical "patch" that works for that new car will "fit" a 98-04 Seville and most mechanical upgrades that fit a DTS will usually fit our Sevilles.

I would guess that the number of people with a new Lucerns who what to bolt on a turbo is some number less then 1... But it can't hurt to ask.

So just to clarify, no plans for a F55 Suspension upgrade and no plans for a Tech II clone. Darn.

AJxtcman
06-10-08, 09:23 PM
Tech II clone.
What is a Tech II clone?

I currently have 5 cables at my house and 3 of them are
J2534 devices. I have a AVT -838 cable with a Wideband port on it and I still prefer the Tech II as a programing device. It is just a pass through device that I use. I use it as a J2534 device and it is sooooooooo much more stable and faster than the AVT cable.
JET uses a cable that is coded to the software. TC original version uses an unlicensed cable.
:hmm:

I will get to you on this I am busy fixing my F-up right now.

Submariner409
06-10-08, 11:12 PM
AJ, Some people are hoping and praying somebody will hack off a Tech II tool so they won't have to pay $4,000 for the real thing with all the updates.

AJxtcman
06-11-08, 12:18 AM
AJ, Some people are hoping and praying somebody will hack off a Tech II tool so they won't have to pay $4,000 for the real thing with all the updates.

Sub you missed the boat!
http://www.monodax.com/forums/off-topic/1258-new-gm-mdi-unit.html

Ur7x
06-11-08, 12:49 AM
Ya me too... At that price I could almost convince my fleet manager to buy one...

OK AJ, spill the beans what can a Tech II do that this can't and more important what GM software do I need on my laptop to talk to my Caddy's BCM?

Submariner409
06-11-08, 09:23 AM
If you go through that entire thread you'll see that the machine in question, used on Camaro and Corvette, works "on some generic OBD-II codes in other cars but it won't do everything.......". It won't do what an up-to-date Tech II will, apparently Tech II is good at least through 2010, and will still be needed for earlier models of OBD-II.

Fire and Ice
06-11-08, 11:58 AM
Somehow we went from headers to a tuner...:hmm:?

Ur7x
06-11-08, 12:32 PM
Somehow we went from headers to a tuner...:hmm:?

That's a funny post since in your previous post you said


at this time D3 does not have any plans to build production mods for the 'older' vehicles.

Which most of us translated into "if you want headers, you need to build them yourselves."

As you will note there is a market for ECM hacks for these cars AJ has sold 40+ out of his basement with basically zero marketing

There is an even bigger market for a speed limiter defeat... who knows how many of those Westers garage sold...

There are also sizable markets for stereo upgrades on these cars including IPOD adapters, MP3 upgrades, OE NAV kits, etc etc

I would bet that a remote turbo kit like "STS Turbo" sells for 4th gen Camaros and trucks would also sell.

The "Cheap Tech II" market is HUGE... Vettes, Trucks, all Caddy's, Aurora's etc etc.. anything GM made that was "nice" (even some of their crap) needs a Tech II to alter, adjust, and diagnose some of the basic functions of the car... If someone could build and market a FULLY FUNCTIONAL Tech II clone in the $500-$800 price point the market would be enormous. Everyone from high end hobbyist, to corner garages, to fleet managers would be lining up to get one. The "problem" with the tech II is that it has the computer built in, which makes the scanner "smart" which is good, but this also makes it expensive. almost all of the people on the above list already have a computer, most have laptops. All we need is a software package and a usb cable interface and we would be off to the races.

stngh8r
06-24-08, 04:17 PM
:eye::eye:

Still interested.

I wonder if some sort of guard could be placed under the pipe to protect it from gettting smashed?

Fire and Ice
06-24-08, 04:24 PM
:eye::eye:

Still interested.

I wonder if some sort of guard could be placed under the pipe to protect it from gettting smashed?

That would reduce ground clearance even more...

stngh8r
06-24-08, 05:02 PM
That would reduce ground clearance even more...



:noidea: Just a thought?

I guess I was just imagining something like the guard pictured on post #51. Just something that would give some protection to the pipe at the expense of 1/2-3/4" ground clearence reduction. I wouldn't be bothered by the occasional bump underneath if I knew that nothing was being harmed and the closest thing to the ground is a skid/protector plate.

I have NO idea how feasible this would be, just thinking out loud. I'll leave the engineering to you guys. ;)

Eric

Dubya
07-01-08, 08:15 PM
You guys beg for upgrades them we get a guy that does nothing but grill and slam a company who shows up? come on, relax man. he owes nothing to any of us so we should give him nothing but warm welcomes. check your ego at the door

as to heat being an issue i will say this. gm has done crossovers like that for many years on many cars, and they still get HOT. i doubt a properly coated header would be more hot. and if you were really paranoid, wrap the crossover with header wrap then spray it with header silicone spray. i did this on my car, and i can touch the crossover after its been run hard and not burn myself. so heat will not be an issue.

since the lower ground clearance is where the tires are at, i dont see it as an issue so long as you still have decent clearance.

lets see some pics man! the one thing that i would be concerned with is what kind of connections there will be as this is obviously going to be a multipiece kit. one thing i cant stand about headers is alot of them have sealing issues.

Fire and Ice
07-01-08, 08:30 PM
Thanks for the support, Dubya. I'll see if I can get the car on the rack to get some photos for everyone.

We did a baseline tune for break in on the motor. The vehicle is making 305 whp and 285 lbs of torque. This is only the initial break in tune and we still are running a factory intake and air filter. There's definitely more to be gained from the intake and tuning. When all said and done we should be at our target goal of 400 bhp.

AlBundy
07-01-08, 08:40 PM
Thanks for the support, Dubya. I'll see if I can get the car on the rack to get some photos for everyone.

We did a baseline tune for break in on the motor. The vehicle is making 305 whp and 285 lbs of torque. This is only the initial break in tune and we still are running a factory intake and air filter. There's definitely more to be gained from the intake and tuning. When all said and done we should be at our target goal of 400 bhp.

Which N* engine Y or 9?

Fire and Ice
07-01-08, 08:44 PM
The 2006 Buick Lucerne has the Y motor.

AlBundy
07-01-08, 08:46 PM
The 2006 Buick Lucerne has the Y motor.

:thumbsup:

stngh8r
07-01-08, 11:19 PM
[quote=Fire and Ice;1564172]The vehicle is making 305 whp and 285 lbs of torque. quote]

WOW!
:jawdrop:

CadillacSTS42005
07-01-08, 11:27 PM
so when do we get some more details on these headers???

Highline Cady
07-02-08, 12:37 AM
That can't be right. 305 wheel HP? Thought that they were rated at 275 just like the "base" N*. Headers and a tune can't possibly be adding 85 or so horses (most cady guys get 220ish at the wheels out of the "300 hp N*) with a tranny that soaks up 26-28% of the power. Sure you didn't mean at the crank? And I assume it's an 06 and up for the tuning application, correct?

Hey listen, I love the fact that there is some actual progress on the possibility of a bolt-on that is not a custom made one off piece by each particular person, and I would probably buy one of the first 10 sets if it were to come to fruition, and they were quality, fairly priced, and I didn't loose too much ground clearance. So this is by no means a cut on you or the company, but no way is it making 305 hp at the wheels, I just can't believe that.

But hey, I'd looooooove for you to prove me wrong, but then I'd have to become a Buick man. :histeric:

eldorado1
07-02-08, 01:59 AM
Might be one of those dynos that "guesstimates" at your crank HP. I could believe 305 crank, for a 30hp gain.

I'd like to see a print out.

edit - I think 2006 has VVT. It would not surprise me if you could change the valve timing a bit and pick up a lot of extra horsepower. This should not be construed as part of the header package, as most of us here do not have VVT. I'd like to see a before and after, where at most only the fuel tables are changed (if necessary)

AlBundy
07-02-08, 02:01 AM
Might be one of those dynos that "guesstimates" at your crank HP. I could believe 305 crank, for a 30hp gain.

I'd like to see a print out.

Your not alone. Trust me.:eek:

AJxtcman
07-02-08, 08:38 AM
This is not a VVT engine. The VVT are only in RWD aplications.

I could see a major power increase when tuned properly.

I would like to see some pictures!

ejguillot
07-02-08, 10:57 AM
For that power increase, I'll break out the credit card! Would like to see some dyno sheets first.

cvpiftw
07-02-08, 12:08 PM
Id consider one if it went UNDER the trans properly. Maybe a VERY ingeniously designed flange that is VERY wide but thin would work instead of the classic round style headers?

Fire and Ice
07-02-08, 12:12 PM
Sorry, I thought everyone read the entire post. This Buick Lucerne has been heavily modified. FYI: We rebuilt the short block with higher compression, better rods and pistons, D3 custom camshafts, Modified Cylinder Heads, Corsa exhaust, D3 custom headers and Torque Master spark plugs. With the break in tune the vehicle is making 305 whp. We have not built an intake or used a performance filter in the vehicle yet, so there is more power to be made after break in miles.

AJxtcman
07-02-08, 12:46 PM
Sorry, I thought everyone read the entire post. This Buick Lucerne has been heavily modified. FYI: We rebuilt the short block with higher compression, better rods and pistons, D3 custom camshafts, Modified Cylinder Heads, Corsa exhaust, D3 custom headers and Torque Master spark plugs. With the break in tune the vehicle is making 305 whp. We have not built an intake or used a performance filter in the vehicle yet, so there is more power to be made after break in miles.

I am on board with what you are talking about.
I would like to see pictures of the headers. I then could place my judgment on that. I was speaking hypothetically on the amount of room to route them. I my little head I can't imagine how they will be routed and give any increase in power. Yes you could do two into two pipes and then under and over, but will that increase performance? Maybe you could build some shorty headers that come out in the same place as the stock unit, but again will that increase performance?

:cool: um

Fire and Ice
07-02-08, 02:34 PM
I am on board with what you are talking about.
I would like to see pictures of the headers. I then could place my judgment on that. I was speaking hypothetically on the amount of room to route them. I my little head I can't imagine how they will be routed and give any increase in power. Yes you could do two into two pipes and then under and over, but will that increase performance? Maybe you could build some shorty headers that come out in the same place as the stock unit, but again will that increase performance?

:cool: um

We took all that into account, but with the stock header/manifold, they were just too pinched off and restrictive to produce decent power gains for this application. We could have built some nice flowing shorty headers, but we'd still be limited by the crossover pipe. To keep this as much a bolt on application, it was elected to go under the crossmember rather than notch or modify it.

Submariner409
07-02-08, 02:37 PM
Given the space problems around a FWD 4.6L daily driver moderately modified Seville/Deville Northstar installation (not Fiero, not Lucerne, not VVT, not sand rail, not nitrous, not turbo, not go kart), what exactly are the chances of ever seeing a set of bolt-on 4, 3, or tri-Y tube headers on the above car.

No ifs, ands, or buts. On the car that 99% of the readers in here have. A set of headers that will last, not leak, set no codes, allow smog inspections, and offer significant enough performance increases across the power range to justify the expense.

The reason I ask, playing Devil's Advocate: There are many, many other vehicles to dump "fast" money into which give far greater reward than a FWD Cadillac.

Anything other than a straight and honest answer to the above first two paragraphs is smoke and mirrors.

Fire and Ice
07-02-08, 03:29 PM
To be quite honest, the headers don't have a CARB #, and I don't think they ever will, but the headers/crossover use the factory cat which is what will or won't set a code. The Lucerne we have here hasn't set a code for catalyst efficiency and I doubt it will from the headers since it still uses the factory cat.

Anyhow, I have not received one commitment to purchasing these headers so it looks like we'll only ever have the prototype. Sorry guys. We can build it and we're willing to put the time and effort into making new products, but we have to be able to justify it.

CadillacSTS42005
07-04-08, 03:40 PM
no one will commit unless we have some viable proof ya know
im all for this which is why i contacted you but pictures, dyno tests, pictures of the installation
these would go a long way...

AlBundy
07-04-08, 03:57 PM
Can't order/purchase a mod that doesn't exist.

Fire and Ice
07-07-08, 12:34 PM
As a form of commitment, it would be a pre-order where we get your shipping and billing information. When the headers go into production and are ready to ship, we will notify each one of our pre-order customers that their card will be billed for their order. If for some reason the headers do not get produced, then your card(s) will never be billed.

GizmoQ
07-07-08, 03:38 PM
I got rid of my Platinum AMEX when I retired so I need to know a ballpark price?

Crown Vic Owner
07-07-08, 07:02 PM
I can see headers IF you were to create a tunnel underneath that would be reinforced so it would pass the speedbump. Personally, i think that it wouldnt be worth it alone for the hassle of installing it. Imagine installing those bitches. The whole front subframe (that the proper term?) would need to come out alone to install them from the looks.


I think we need a supercharger kit for these cars. Eaton m90 would do the job, although id personally go with a 120

CadillacSTS42005
07-07-08, 11:39 PM
also would like pics specs and info on the headers other than they were installed on a Lucerne

AlBundy
07-08-08, 12:49 AM
As a form of commitment, it would be a pre-order where we get your shipping and billing information. When the headers go into production and are ready to ship, we will notify each one of our pre-order customers that their card will be billed for their order. If for some reason the headers do not get produced, then your card(s) will never be billed.

No one's trying to be rude to you but how can you justify telling us if there's enough entrance you will build it but give me your billing info first. It seems to me that your on the "I'm doing you a favor" train so get it or miss out. There are limited mods for this car but don't expect billing info without results as STS has stated. Lets not go BSing because certain people want more than "Give me your billing info or forget about it". We still don't know how this mod is going to fit on these cars without going to 22's or 24's to not fear clear ground clearance.

msta293412
07-08-08, 10:27 AM
C'mon guys, this is D3, were talking about, there not some fly by night company. They didnt get into bussiness and stay in it, by ripping people off. Im not saying much, because Im not interested at the time, but if I was and I had the money and intention to buy, I would go along with them. Like he said, if for some reason they dont get built, you dont even get billed. Besides, put it on ANY credit card, and your protected. Just a note: I have had some private conversations(through PM's) with a D3 rep.(maybe the guy were all dealing with here) and he was very curtious and trying to be as honest as possible.......

Fire and Ice
07-08-08, 12:19 PM
While I appreciate the support and can certainly understand the skepticism, really all I'm trying to convey is it's not practical for D3 to build the jigs, etc just to make one or two of these headers. I can't justify investing money in a product that will only sell one or two. As I mentioned to STS, we are certainly willing to entertain any suggestions you have and even consider building new products for vehicles we don't normally do, but we have to be able to justify doing so. It's only business, nothing personal. As I mentioned, to take on a new project, we have to justify doing so, which means that people are committed to purchasing the product. It's safe to say that many ideas never make it into production because of lack of interest or support. Remember, we will not bill anyone for any pre-orders UNTIL we have a finished product that is ready to ship.

AlBundy
07-08-08, 12:46 PM
While I appreciate the support and can certainly understand the skepticism, really all I'm trying to convey is it's not practical for D3 to build the jigs, etc just to make one or two of these headers. I can't justify investing money in a product that will only sell one or two. As I mentioned to STS, we are certainly willing to entertain any suggestions you have and even consider building new products for vehicles we don't normally do, but we have to be able to justify doing so. It's only business, nothing personal. As I mentioned, to take on a new project, we have to justify doing so, which means that people are committed to purchasing the product. It's safe to say that many ideas never make it into production because of lack of interest or support. Remember, we will not bill anyone for any pre-orders UNTIL we have a finished product that is ready to ship.

Sorry about my spelling(too many beers):alchi:. I hope this thing works out as I'm also interested. I kind of understand your point that interest doesn't mean purchase. Regardless, when can we expect to see some stats?:cool:

CadillacSTS42005
07-08-08, 01:45 PM
While I appreciate the support and can certainly understand the skepticism, really all I'm trying to convey is it's not practical for D3 to build the jigs, etc just to make one or two of these headers. I can't justify investing money in a product that will only sell one or two. As I mentioned to STS, we are certainly willing to entertain any suggestions you have and even consider building new products for vehicles we don't normally do, but we have to be able to justify doing so. It's only business, nothing personal. As I mentioned, to take on a new project, we have to justify doing so, which means that people are committed to purchasing the product. It's safe to say that many ideas never make it into production because of lack of interest or support. Remember, we will not bill anyone for any pre-orders UNTIL we have a finished product that is ready to ship.

shouldnt you already have alot of the tooling and the specs if you already built one set?
again were not asking for much here, just some pics of it installed on the Buick, some intel on specs and a ball park price....

i mean thats really not that much now

mikekilpatrick
11-20-08, 10:10 AM
Anymore information on these headers? I would be interested as well...

Submariner409
11-20-08, 10:26 AM
You gotta understand that D3 is mostly smoke and mirrors when it comes to earlier low-production vehicles. They'll outsource the current, fast-moving popular products and move on with the model years, although I'd guess that they, like other aftermarket vendors, are feeling a bit of a cash flow pinch right now. Seville/Eldorado headers are such labor intensive, low sales volume products requiring extensive vehicle modification that it makes little sense to spend the time and money to build a few sets ..... to amortize their R&D, would you pay $2,400 for a pair of headers which required an additional $2,000 - $3,000 to successfully install ?? Put a Seville or Eldo up on a hoist and just stand there and look at what it would take to do a complete dual job.

Heck, a company like Hooker or Kooks or Hedman is far better equipped to pop out headers than D3.

neverstuck
11-23-08, 08:51 PM
Id prefer a copy of that prototype chip that a certain member has ...wish I was good with computers to reproduce it

CadillacSTS42005
11-27-08, 05:26 PM
shhh
we no longer speak of my chip...

97EldoCoupe
11-27-08, 07:17 PM
OK. I have the means to start fabricating headers come spring of 2009, if there was a demand for it. I have access to getting CNC plasma cutting equipment to make flanges, joints, etc, CNC tubing bending equipment and mig welders. I have shop space rented and I can set up the jigs once I have a prototype done. The headers would obviously be "shorty headers", full length headers are not an option because of the tight clearances.

I want to know. Before I really get into this: How many people would be interested in a set of headers if they costed around $1500 for a complete pair of 409 stainless steel headers, including a custom crossover pipe? The downpipe or "Y" pipe could be modified as well for true duals, or just a nice open flowing Y pipe. The down pipe would have to have a flex link in it, or two flex pipes if it's going to be true duals. As for installation, there is no other way. Lower the cradle or pull the engine from the top. It's not something you'd want to do unless you're serious about getting your Caddy to go faster. They would be direct bolt-ons, with all EGR tubes, proper heat shields, O2 sensor bungs, etc.

I don't know the exact numbers, but with opening up the intake system just a bit (by modifying the air intake box for more flow), I'm pretty sure the headers would add around 50 brake horsepower (engine horsepower) bringing the output of a L37 to 350 HP. I don't know about the primary tube I.D. yet but I'm figuring around 1 5/8". The stock exhaust is quite restrictive- just imagine how these engines would perform with a nice free flowing exhaust system.

I'm not promising anything. But if there was enough interest to make it worthwhile I would follow this through all the way. No, $1,500 is not cheap for a set of headers. Ask any small block chevy owners what they paid for theirs! But if (And I say "if") I could have headers complete, dyno results done, and ready to ship around April for this price.....any takers?

Fire and Ice
12-01-08, 01:00 PM
hmm...

97EldoCoupe
12-01-08, 05:19 PM
I've located a company that will bend the tubing for the headers, all I have to do is make the flanges, weld them up and sell them. The pricing is going to run approx. $2,300 for a complete set and they will be available a bit later than I thought. They're in a bind and have a contract that's keeping them busy until October 20 next year. They told me after that they'd set up the CNC process and I'm hoping to have them on the market by November 15th 2009. This is a well known manufacturing company- I know there's others out there but I'm willing to wait.

Destroyer
12-01-08, 11:17 PM
I've located a company that will bend the tubing for the headers, all I have to do is make the flanges, weld them up and sell them. The pricing is going to run approx. $2,300 for a complete set and they will be available a bit later than I thought. They're in a bind and have a contract that's keeping them busy until October 20 next year. They told me after that they'd set up the CNC process and I'm hoping to have them on the market by November 15th 2009. This is a well known manufacturing company- I know there's others out there but I'm willing to wait.Not gonna fly man. Its an awesome and overdue idea but $2300 is pretty close or exceeds the actual worth of many N* cars. They will we worth maybe 15-25hp?. You may get some hits from guys with newer N* Caddy's but the 93-99 crowd........I just dont see it, not for that kind of coin. $1200 for a headgasket job? ALL NIGHT AND DAY. $2300 for exhaust? Not IMO.

Raze
12-01-08, 11:25 PM
OK. I have the means to start fabricating headers come spring of 2009, if there was a demand for it. I have access to getting CNC plasma cutting equipment to make flanges, joints, etc, CNC tubing bending equipment and mig welders. I have shop space rented and I can set up the jigs once I have a prototype done. The headers would obviously be "shorty headers", full length headers are not an option because of the tight clearances.

I want to know. Before I really get into this: How many people would be interested in a set of headers if they costed around $1500 for a complete pair of 409 stainless steel headers, including a custom crossover pipe? The downpipe or "Y" pipe could be modified as well for true duals, or just a nice open flowing Y pipe. The down pipe would have to have a flex link in it, or two flex pipes if it's going to be true duals. As for installation, there is no other way. Lower the cradle or pull the engine from the top. It's not something you'd want to do unless you're serious about getting your Caddy to go faster. They would be direct bolt-ons, with all EGR tubes, proper heat shields, O2 sensor bungs, etc.

I don't know the exact numbers, but with opening up the intake system just a bit (by modifying the air intake box for more flow), I'm pretty sure the headers would add around 50 brake horsepower (engine horsepower) bringing the output of a L37 to 350 HP. I don't know about the primary tube I.D. yet but I'm figuring around 1 5/8". The stock exhaust is quite restrictive- just imagine how these engines would perform with a nice free flowing exhaust system.

I'm not promising anything. But if there was enough interest to make it worthwhile I would follow this through all the way. No, $1,500 is not cheap for a set of headers. Ask any small block chevy owners what they paid for theirs! But if (And I say "if") I could have headers complete, dyno results done, and ready to ship around April for this price.....any takers?


More than a few issues here:

1) Crossover size increase - HOW? Have you measured it? If you increase it you've either got to decrease the oil pan size or you're going to clang the exhaust against it all day long.

2) True Dual O2 issue - Have you tested a single O2 sensor on a true dual setup to ensure the time lag in heating it up to its efficient operating temp won't cause any problems? Not to mention the problem with only operating the O2 sensor on one bank which means you may have a lean problem on the other bank but not detect it which could exaserbate the problem instead of allowing the N* to automatically pull timing and cut fuel to prevent engine damage.

3) $2300 for a set of headers? I can build a full custom turbo setup including splicing in a MegaSquirt stand alone ECU, front mount intercooler, turbo, oil return pump, oil lines, upgraded fuel pump and injectors for that price, and increase power till I lift the heads, or better yet, spend $500 for a really nice nitrous oxide system...

4) These are going to be a PITA to install in car, alot of stuff is going to need to be moved out of the way, period, and for most on this board who have never gotten their hands dirty, or who can't afford $500/shock for OEMs, I kind of doubt you're going to get interest from most people on this board when all is said and done. I don't mean to be pessimistic or get down on you man, I really think this would rock, but alot of things like this start as talk but nothing ever comes of it, go do, and rain on my parade :)

I say build yourself a set, dyno before, dyno after, show results, THEN people will be interested in buying, AJs tunes are still 'officially' unproven since NO ONE has dyno'd before and after, don't take offense AJ, just saying, before and after is important for public sale...

I wish you luck, I'd be interested in any results :)

Destroyer
12-03-08, 10:19 PM
Judging the response, looks like a no-go on the $2300 headers.

97EldoCoupe
12-03-08, 10:24 PM
Hmmmm......

Destroyer
12-03-08, 10:36 PM
Hmmmm......

Maybe you could manufacture them cheaper by getting them from China or Vietnam?. They'll build anything but the quality is sometimes "iffy".

97EldoCoupe
12-03-08, 10:46 PM
It's ideas like that that puts the US and Canadian economies in a crisis. Anything I get custom machined or built gets made in the USA or Canada. No ifs, ands, or buts. Better quality (usually), no expensive shipping involved, and jobs for North Americans so we can keep our Cadillacs fueled up....

Submariner409
12-03-08, 10:51 PM
The cost of the headers bears no relationship to the book value of the car..........some pretty wild work has been, and is being done, on total rust bucket 1966 Chevelles and 442's...........For someone with the time and money to build a scary Seville FWD cost will not be a factor: the bugaboo is getting the power on the ground. I would have no qualms whatsoever in dumping $15,000 into my STS.....IF I could create a balls-fast relatively reliable daily driver. Not a trailer queen.

Destroyer
12-03-08, 11:17 PM
The cost of the headers bears no relationship to the book value of the car..........some pretty wild work has been, and is being done, on total rust bucket 1966 Chevelles and 442's..........Yes it does. 442's and Chevelle's are worth big money in modified OR stock form. If you are starting from scratch on a cheap Chevelle of 442 you are likely to get back all the money you put into it. Custom work on those cars is normal and there is a big market for the end product. Not so with a N* Caddy which will appeal to a very small segment in modified form.

97EldoCoupe
12-03-08, 11:27 PM
Sub I agree. Anyone who's driven an STS, or an ETC, or a Deville/DTS, knows that a Cadillac is everything it's believed to be- except "for old people". Cadillacs have status with the young and old, and a reputation for being luxurious, the best-of-the-best, comfortable, and since the 4.9 and Northstar came out, got back the status of a "powerful, fast car".

Who wouldn't want a super comfy daily driver that can kick a Hemi-Charger's ass? or a new Mustang (they already can), or even leave most LS1's in the dust? When I was in Southern Manitoba this summer for two weeks, I layed a lot of rubber with my '98 STS and smoked a lot of ricers and Mustang 5.0s, V8 S10s, etc. By the time I left Manitoba almost everyone wanted to buy my '98 off me. I don't quite know what it is with that car, but I can lay rubber for a block on most roads (both wheels, TC never comes on unless I do that around a corner), and often it squaks on the 1-2 shift. Even the cops were getting out of their cruisers to take a look at the car. WHO WOULDN'T SOUP UP A SWEET CADDY?

I now need a new set of tires, but hey, it was fun. And that was still only with a HG job, no headers, no mods, nothing. I can only imagine how much more fun that car would be with an extra 50-100 HP.

Destroyer
12-03-08, 11:46 PM
It's ideas like that that puts the US and Canadian economies in a crisis. Anything I get custom machined or built gets made in the USA or Canada. Ok, that is noble but as a business man you want the best product for the lowest cost, wherever and by whoever. Trust me, your headers won't affect the economy of the USA or Canada in any way, shape or form. Other option is to fail.

Destroyer
12-04-08, 12:01 AM
Sub I agree. Anyone who's driven an STS, or an ETC, or a Deville/DTS, knows that a Cadillac is everything it's believed to be- except "for old people". Cadillacs have status with the young and old, and a reputation for being luxurious, the best-of-the-best, comfortable, and since the 4.9 and Northstar came out, got back the status of a "powerful, fast car".Cadillacs did once have stature. Sadly the N* Caddy will be remembered as what most refer to it now: a piece of crap. I've driven an STS an ETC and owned a Deville. I used to rent them all the time going back and forth from FL to NY. I enjoyed driving them as rentals. I've also owned S-Class Mercedes and other German cars................no damn comparison. The fact that you think these Caddy's are the "best of the best" leads me to believe that you haven't driven anything worthwhile before.



Who wouldn't want a super comfy daily driver that can kick a Hemi-Charger's ass? or a new Mustang (they already can), or even leave most LS1's in the dust? When I was in Southern Manitoba this summer for two weeks, I layed a lot of rubber with my '98 STS and smoked a lot of ricers and Mustang 5.0s, V8 S10s, etc. By the time I left Manitoba almost everyone wanted to buy my '98 off me. I don't quite know what it is with that car, but I can lay rubber for a block on most roads (both wheels, TC never comes on unless I do that around a corner), and often it squaks on the 1-2 shift. Even the cops were getting out of their cruisers to take a look at the car. WHO WOULDN'T SOUP UP A SWEET CADDY?
You CANT beat a Hemi-Charger, a new Mustang or LS1 so get off it. Charger is high 13's, Mustang is mid 13's as is an LS1 fbody/GTO. A beat down 5.0 Mustang, yeah. Your car is NOT as fast as you think it is.


I now need a new set of tires, but hey, it was fun. And that was still only with a HG job, no headers, no mods, nothing. I can only imagine how much more fun that car would be with an extra 50-100 HP.What was fun? Racing against cars that weren't racing against you?.

97EldoCoupe
12-04-08, 09:48 AM
A MODDED N* can beat all of those cars, if they're left stock.

I got beat by a grand Am with a 3.4HO, but I had 400 lbs in the trunk and 4 passengers with me at the time AND running 87 octane. He had only himself. And think about the weight difference to begin with. Nevertheless, that grand am was pretty quick. I have no problems admitting someone beat me. I`m not a sore loser.

My `98 broke traction at WOT doing 65 MPH on I-94 around Chicago. Obviously there was dust on the road or something but that was a surprise. The tires were good at that time.

I smoked a 5.0 Mustang with a 4.0 Aurora.

And then there were people who thought their cavaliers, sunfires, and sunbirds could stand a chance.....

There was a 75 Charger with a 440 stroked out to 500 (around that)- I never bothered trying to race him because anybody and everybody knows he`s going to win.

Like I said, all I can say is laugh. I think other forum members will agree when I say it's just not worth responding to your posts....

Destroyer
12-06-08, 10:06 PM
A MODDED N* can beat all of those cars, if they're left stock. I guess, I've never seen a modded N* but that's besides the point. You said you beat them with your stock one.


I got beat by a grand Am with a 3.4HO, but I had 400 lbs in the trunk and 4 passengers with me at the time AND running 87 octane. He had only himself. And think about the weight difference to begin with. Nevertheless, that grand am was pretty quick. I have no problems admitting someone beat me. I`m not a sore loser.My buddy has a '99 Grand Am with a 3.4HO. Its ok but pretty slow, I would think a N* Caddy could beat one with no problem even with 4 people in it, guess not. I can't understand how you can admit to losing to a 3.4 Grand Am and claim that you are smoking new Mustangs, Hemi Charger's and LS1's. It makes absolutely NO sense whatsoever cause any of those cars would beat a Grand Am GT by a huge margin even if they were towing the Titanic.


My `98 broke traction at WOT doing 65 MPH on I-94 around Chicago. Obviously there was dust on the road or something but that was a surprise. The tires were good at that time.Obviously. My ex- 2000 Camry 4 banger once did that too. Guess it hit a patch of dust on the road OR it was a top fuel dragster.


I smoked a 5.0 Mustang with a 4.0 Aurora.Possible IF you are talking about a 5.0 with an automatic OR if you went from a roll with a 5 spd that was ragged out. It also makes a difference if that 5.0 was a 87-93 model or if it was a '94-'95 model as they were a bit slower. A 5 spd 5.0 running properly would not have any trouble beating any stock N* Caddy (save for newer models and XLR's) in the 1/4 mile. Either way pretty close. A 5.0 Mustang is a low-mid 14 second car while a N* Caddy is a high 14-low 15 second car. I will tell you this, if you raced a 5.0 on the highway you would win. The N* cars have (as I'm sure you know) nice mid range power all the way up to redline, the 5.0 Mustangs do not (in stock form).


And then there were people who thought their cavaliers, sunfires, and sunbirds could stand a chance.....You should get a bumper sticker that reads "sunbird killer".:lildevil:


There was a 75 Charger with a 440 stroked out to 500 (around that)- I never bothered trying to race him because anybody and everybody knows he`s going to win.Eh, who knows? Maybe you would have hit dust on the road at 65mph and put a nice show on for him.


Like I said, all I can say is laugh. I think other forum members will agree when I say it's just not worth responding to your posts....I don't know man. You are taking "weird" to the next level with your responses. It's ok to say you like N*'s and its ok for me to say I don't. You as an owner that fixes them and makes your living this way and myself as an enthusiast who has owned well over 150 cars in my 21 years of driving. You talk about these cars the way a 15 year old would talk about his Honda " I smoked this or I smoked that, blah, blah, blah" or "I'm making a special edition Ricer2000NX edition", LMAO. Let your head studs and your work do the talking not your miscellaneous ramblings that frankly are making you lose credibility. Everyone here owns or has owned a car like yours or similar, we know what they can and cannot do.

msta293412
12-07-08, 10:47 AM
Destroyer, your on another planet if you think people will remember sts,s and northstars as "peices of crap". Every one I speak to who has had one , young or old , say that those cars "are the best theyve ever owned". All cars will give you some slight problems now and then.

97EldoCoupe
12-07-08, 11:11 AM
Exactly correct msta, they have a few issues but all cars do. If looked after, the HGs are lasting 8-10 years and really that's not the worst- get them replaced and you're good to go again. I love my STS. I guess many wouldn't believe that I'd almost give it up to have my '85 Parisienne back. 403 4 barrel, headers, RWD, F41 suspension and a posi-diff. That was more fun to drive than my STS. But the STS has all the luxury options that the Parisienne didn't. On the other hand, that car was so simple to work on and the 403 was bulletproof. OK yeah I lost second gear- smoked off a pair of rear tires and the stock 200-4R didn't survive that. With the gas prices the way they were I decided to sell it and drive something that got more than 15-20MPG.

97EldoCoupe
12-07-08, 11:15 AM
How many 300HP V8 cars can get the mileage and driveability that the N* does? I'm sure that there are imports and luxury sedans that compare. I have no doubt. But this is a "Cadillac" forum. Most of us here love our cars- otherwise we wouldn't be here. To me, the cars are worth the money and time to fix if any issues should arise. Hard work and pride went into building the Cadillac Motor Division, and the cars they produce. That should mean something to all of us.

Destroyer
12-07-08, 11:59 AM
How many 300HP V8 cars can get the mileage and driveability that the N* does? Is that a serious question?

msta293412
12-08-08, 11:02 AM
YES! Try and answer it.....

Destroyer
12-08-08, 09:17 PM
YES! Try and answer it.....Ok. Back in '92 I had a showroom clean '85 Porsche 928s. V8 DOHC 32 valve with 288hp. Hmm, at least 8 years before a N* came along. Smoother than a N* and more torque too. Truly almost every 300hp+ V8 is just as smooth as N* including the 4.6 DOHC Ford motors and the Mercedes, Lexus V8's and so forth. I'm sticking with V8's of similar architecture here but the LSx motors and LT1 motors were smooth runners as well and offered substantially more torque and better reliability. Your turn....................

therodman
12-09-08, 12:12 AM
I've read pretty much all of the posts from this thread, a lot of talk about
the HP that everyone either has or wants from their N*. I've been beating on mine which is a 94 STS, Y engine with a few mods that is really a pleasure to drive. It gets up and goes and as far as Mustangs, Camaro's, whatever, I've raced many and have either beaten them or stayed alongside with no problem. I even stomped one of those Lightning Ford trucks, I think it's called a lightning, was pulling on that truck pretty bad in 2nd gear when we had to give it up. Many years ago I drove a 67 Chevelle with a 375 HP 396 that was built, that car also sported a 456 rear end so it really popped off the line, I know power! Also raced a 427 Camaro, 557 rear and on and on which was running in the low 9's, I know power. Although the STS is fast it couldn't come close to that SS Chevelle, all in all, for a a luxury car that can be driven every day with an A/C blowing it's pretty fast!!

Anyhow, my post isn't about HP or beating other cars although I admit I was getting carried away. It's about the drivetrain, I've thought about an increase in HP and have wondered how much the transmission, cv joints, axles, etc. can handle. I've never banged my car hard off the line, always in gear when I take off WOT, although when I raced that Ford truck I did a little brake torque to get the r's up a bit. When I use the shifter and pull it into 1st and force it into 2nd at WOT, it hits pretty hard and the tires will break lose everytime, it hits hard. That is what makes me wonder how mnay more HP can the stock drivetrain take, another 100 maybe.

I haven't read any posts where people have broken drivetrain parts so the drievtrain must be pretty stout at least for the 300HP that came with the car!

Any thoughs..........

msta293412
12-09-08, 11:19 AM
My turn is AEEHHH!! wrong.. Porsch is not a like kind vehicle.......In 93 when the first N* came along, it revolutionized t he automotive industry....evryone else has since jumped on the 4 valve 8. If you want to be picky...By todays standards, now that everything has moved on ...the N* is still above average....but the new vvt N* are another step ahead, soo you and everybody else has to play catchup again.....enjoy.

Raze
12-09-08, 11:20 AM
You'll break the spiders in your CVs in stock form on the drive axle if you turn it hard over and put down max power, it's just not strong enough to handle at that angle, I know I snapped 2 of them... That being said Mark99STS put in an LSD (Engineered performance) and was over 430WHP and not breaking anything, but when I discussed he says he really only mashes it in a straight line, plus the LSD helps spread the love around...

Destroyer
12-09-08, 09:20 PM
My turn is AEEHHH!! wrong.. Porsch is not a like kind vehicle...... You can say that again!


In 93 when the first N* came along, it revolutionized t he automotive industry....evryone else has since jumped on the 4 valve 8. If you want to be picky...By todays standards, now that everything has moved on ...the N* is still above average....but the new vvt N* are another step ahead, soo you and everybody else has to play catchup again.....enjoy.Since you wanna talk "like kind" , you do know that in '93 Lincoln's had DOHC 4.6 V8's right?. They didn't have the fatal H/G issues AND they had a proper RWD drive setup. Just as smooth and completely modifiable. Actually they feel very similar but without the problems. Now as for my 928 (still one of my favorite cars), yes I can argue that there was nothing "revolutionary" about the N*. "Revolutionary" to me means they brought something to the table that wasn't there before. The technology was old, actually the technology is older than the pushrod motor itself. Caddy didn't start a DOHC V8 trend, that is just ridiculous. They did advertise it well though. Couldn't pick up a car rag without seeing N* advertisements at the time.

Destroyer
12-09-08, 09:23 PM
It gets up and goes and as far as Mustangs, Camaro's, whatever, I've raced many and have either beaten them or stayed alongside with no problem. I even stomped one of those Lightning Ford trucks, I think it's called a lightning, was pulling on that truck pretty bad in 2nd gear when we had to give it up. Many years ago I drove a 67 Chevelle with a 375 HP 396 that was built, that car also sported a 456 rear end so it really popped off the line, I know power! Also raced a 427 Camaro, 557 rear and on and on which was running in the low 9's, I know power. Although the STS is fast it couldn't come close to that SS Chevelle, all in all, for a a luxury car that can be driven every day with an A/C blowing it's pretty fast!!

Anyhow, my post isn't about HP or beating other cars................Any thoughs..........How come I didn't beat Mustangs, Camaro's and Lightning's in my Deville?. Hell, off the line a new Escalade whooped my ass in the Deville. Weird. How do you do against 3.4HO Grand Am's?.:rolleyes:

Submariner409
12-09-08, 09:57 PM
Destroyer is absolutely correct: OHC, whether single or double, has been around for a very, very long time. Some of my fondest (:o) memories are of trying to set valve lash on a mid-50's DOHC Jaguar 6. There were OHC engines in the 20's.

Cars, engines, speed........give me 8 days and I'll build a Kart that will eat my STS alive in the 1/4. It's all relative....money wins.

therodman
12-09-08, 10:40 PM
Destroyer is absolutely correct: OHC, whether single or double, has been around for a very, very long time. Some of my fondest (:o) memories are of trying to set valve lash on a mid-50's DOHC Jaguar 6. There were OHC engines in the 20's.

Cars, engines, speed........give me 8 days and I'll build a Kart that will eat my STS alive in the 1/4. It's all relative....money wins.

Look, back in the 60's Ford had an SOHC 427 and was rumoured to have a DOHC 427. The SOHC 427 was outlawed from NASCAR before it's first race which was going to be at Daytona and this was going to be the hemi killer. Ford put that SOHC 427 in a Galaxie I think it was, turned some laps and had times that were never seen. NASCAR quickly outlawed that engine and it never did race on a stock car track. The engines were sold over the counter from Ford and were then being used in drag cars. I wasn't a big Ford man but my buudy was and that's all I ever heard, I'll go get a SOCH motor from the factory and beat everyones a$$. That SOHC was 615 HP with 1 4bl carb and 657 with 2 4's.

Destroyer
12-09-08, 10:53 PM
Destroyer is absolutely correct: Not often do I get to see that in print from someone other than myself!:histeric:

Destroyer
12-09-08, 10:55 PM
Look, back in the 60's Ford had an SOHC 427 and was rumoured to have a DOHC 427. The SOHC 427 was outlawed from NASCAR before it's first race which was going to be at Daytona and this was going to be the hemi killer. Ford put that SOHC 427 in a Galaxie I think it was, turned some laps and had times that were never seen. NASCAR quickly outlawed that engine and it never did race on a stock car track. The engines were sold over the counter from Ford and were then being used in drag cars. I wasn't a big Ford man but my buudy was and that's all I ever heard, I'll go get a SOCH motor from the factory and beat everyones a$$. That SOHC was 615 HP with 1 4bl carb and 657 with 2 4's.The SOHC 427's and Semi Hemi headed Boss 429's never got the credit they deserved IMO.

ted tcb
12-09-08, 11:27 PM
Lexus brought their 4 litre, DOHC, 32 valve motor to the marketplace 3 years earlier than Cadillac.
The difference is that many of those 1990 LS400's are still on the road today, with original head bolts and gaskets
intact. Oh, yeah ... apparently, they lack the "excitement" of the STS. All the LS offered was a new level of refinement
and reliability.

therodman
12-09-08, 11:45 PM
How come I didn't beat Mustangs, Camaro's and Lightning's in my Deville?. Hell, off the line a new Escalade whooped my ass in the Deville. Weird. How do you do against 3.4HO Grand Am's?.:rolleyes:

I don't think my car is completely stock, it really gets up and goes. I bought it used from the dealer and and I remember 1 of the salesmen saying, Oh, I know tha tcar, the original owner had it in the garage all the time adding diffferent things along with the routine maintenance. It was a few years old with like 49k miles when I bought. I have driven several STS's starting with my 94 up through 2003, maybe 2004, 05. Anyhow, I've stompled on all of them and none would come close to mine, I really believ that, they wouldn't be very close at the end of 1/4 mile, 1/8th mile, whatever. I don't know what has been done if anything but to be more specific, I raced a maybe late 80's to early 90's Camaro one day. I could hear it idle at the stop sign and it had a cam, I could also tell the had soem gears from the prior stop lieght because he didn't hadly move and had to shift, he was in 3rd going into 4ht by the time we were going around 35-40 mph. Now, were leaving the next light and he stomps on it after we leave which I was suspecting so I stomped on mine. While he was banging gears I saw him look in his rear view mirror because I was like even with his back window so I could see right in his car.

By now I'm hitting 3rd gear and he's been through 3 gears hitting 4th. It was kind of funny about now because he was looking in his mirror and he didn't see me, when he finally figured out that bending around looking in the mirror from different angles wouldn't help, he looked to his passenger side and to my delight, I had pulled up even with him by then. Did he look a little startled, you bet with a look of wonderment, what is this cadillac looking car doing alongside my rod after all these gears.

He had a v-8 for sure and he started prior to me, just rolling when he let it go which like I said, I was anticipating so I was wot right. He still had an ever so slight jump and we were just rolling when we started. From a dead stop, bothstarting together, I beat that car by 1-2 lengths. He was a bit mad but did give me a thumbs up when we finished our little downtown stroll.

Now, you know that an STS like mine has a few more HP than say your Deville and many SLS's, Eldo's and on and on. Mine also has 3:71 gears where as your Deville and most others once again have like a 3:11 gear, huge difference! They also have a different typr torque converter, where mine has a torque cnverter clutch the others have a viscous converter clutch. I don't think the difference in converters make that much difference but the gearing with the additional 25 HP is rather dramatic, the only way I know to describe the difference, "dramatic".

The spec's on mine indicate that peak HP is around 6000 RPM's so I would assume it would shift around 6000 RPM's. When I force shift my car, it shifts pretty close to 7000 RPM's so I would suspect that the original own may have had a perfomance chip installed, maybe a high performance intake and exhaust to go wtih it, that's probably it I would guess.

Just a gear change is rather dramatic, take a standard american built car with a v-8 and 4 or 5 speed trans. They probably come with a ratio something like 290 or 300 to 1 as a final drive ratio. Change that ratio to 370-410 to 1 and that same car would feel like a rocket.

If I were looking to buy an STS or whatever model I prefer, I would wait until I found one that has the Y engine and the 371:1 drive ratio!

Sorry for being so long wnded, as far as a Grand Am, my nephew has one and he drove my STS and said the STS would beat his Grand Am. His car was being worked on at the time and we live in different states so we couldn't get after it. While he was driving my car, I told himto stomp on it and whcih he finally did once he was used to it and he got a nive little smile on his face, thats when he said, you car will beat my Grand Am.

therodman
12-09-08, 11:59 PM
The SOHC 427's and Semi Hemi headed Boss 429's never got the credit they deserved IMO.

Not sure what you mean by not getting the credit but if it's media hype, or exposure I would have to agree. I think but not sure, within the Ford community of hot rodders, they know how bad these engines were, while a fairly large precentage of every day hot rodders have never heard of these engines, at least not much. The 429 was a hemi or semi-hemi which is probably the ultimate design in high performance. The big block Chevrolets were semi-hemi's, there again big HP! Now the SOHC, to have an engine outlawed from NASCAR competition before it ever even competed is unprecedented and will probably never ever happen again.

That Boss Mustang was a nice car, I'm not a Ford guy but a friend or two when we were in high school bought one ( their parents bought one for them ) when they first came out and they were beautiful cars with a nice power plant to boot! They were 302's but still very nice cars!!

therodman
12-10-08, 12:08 AM
You'll break the spiders in your CVs in stock form on the drive axle if you turn it hard over and put down max power, it's just not strong enough to handle at that angle, I know I snapped 2 of them... That being said Mark99STS put in an LSD (Engineered performance) and was over 430WHP and not breaking anything, but when I discussed he says he really only mashes it in a straight line, plus the LSD helps spread the love around...

I've never stomped on the throttle with the wheel turned because of that, it deosn't take a lot of HP to break a joint in any car when your doing that. I will only stomp on it in a straight line unless maybe I'm on the open road going say 60-70 with a small curve in the road. I'll stomp on it then but I know at that speed with the wheel only turned a few degrees I'm not gpoing to harm the drivetrain. The drivetrain is most vulnerable when the car is stranding still and all that torque is apllied all at once. I maybe should've added more detail with my question but assumed everyone would think I was talking about a launch from a dead stop heading in a straight line.

What is an LSD that you mentioned, is it just a CV joint, does it include the axle which may be a different material or bigger, please explain if you would?

Is anyone aware of a thread that goes into detail about the drivetrain and what it can handle as far as HP?

Submariner409
12-10-08, 09:56 AM
Your so-called "NASCAR 429" (427) wound up in these and finished 1 - 2 - 3 at LeMans the second year they raced. The Europeans went berserk that an American could eat Ferrari and Porsche on the same fork in a 24 hour race. So Ford was banned from Euro road racing, promptly went to the 24 Hour Daytona Continental in '67 and won that, too. Anybody remember Jim Hall's Chaparrals ?? Another fun car. 0-100-0 in something like 17 seconds.

Mid-60's Ford GT-40. Absolutely incredible mid-engine car. Was and is........many pleasant memories from Daytona and Sebring.

(LSD = Limited Slip Differential, as in: Positraction, "locker", variants.) The 4T80E is a tough transmission, but it is not designed as a track or drag installation, therefore, when you hit over about 350 shaft hp you're on the fine line.....and it's FWD, so is limited in power handling from the start........

msta293412
12-10-08, 11:23 AM
C'mon guys, this isnt a pissing contest, the stuff your posting is old news, Im talking reality here. The North star DID, revolutionize the automotive industry in its package( in a 4000 pound luxury car,leather,ac,cd,speed senitive steering,suspension,etc...just look in the archives of car and driver among other publications, they all rave about the N*......Sometimes ...you just have to deal with things....it'll be ok....

97EldoCoupe
12-10-08, 02:11 PM
Like I was saying. A Grand Am with a 3.4HO is about 1000 lbs lighter than a Caddy STS to begin with. Then add four extra people and a fully loaded trunk (I had a mig welder, CV shaft, two brake rotors, a brake caliper, tool bag, all of my clothing, and some electronics because I was on vacation and helping a friend fix her car too- the trunk was totally packed) I had to have about 1000-1200 lbs extra with me.

So the STS weighing an extra 2000-2200 lbs than the Grand Am (gross wt), and the STS running on 87 octane. That added weight is like towing a small trailer. Lucky the ELC worked good, the rear end stayed level but when I unloaded that trunk when I got back to Ontario, the car litterally looked like it was nose-diving into the ground.

STSs are not slow. Neither are DTSs, and ETCs, or Auroras with the 3.71:1.

97EldoCoupe
12-10-08, 02:13 PM
I can't wait till I get some time to do the mods on my '98. It's parked for the winter, but in the spring it might have in the neighborhood of 350-375HP at the flywheel.

Destroyer
12-10-08, 07:32 PM
C'mon guys, this isnt a pissing contest, the stuff your posting is old news, Im talking reality here. The North star DID, revolutionize the automotive industry in its package( in a 4000 pound luxury car,leather,ac,cd,speed senitive steering,suspension,etc...just look in the archives of car and driver among other publications, they all rave about the N*......Sometimes ...you just have to deal with things....it'll be ok....What part of the N* was the part that revolutionized anything or was it the complete package in your eyes?

therodman
12-11-08, 10:53 AM
If I were looking to buy an STS or whatever model I prefer, I would wait until I found one that has the Y engine and the 371:1 drive ratio!


I cut out most of the quote, just wanted to correct my error on the engine type I suggested. I was confused for some reason and thought the "Y" engine was the higher output engine when in fact I guess it's the "9". so if I were looking to purchase a used model cadillac and wasn't in a hurry, I would look for one that has the 371:1 drive ratio and the "9" engine. That's a pretty good start right there, it'll suprise you if you haven't driven in one!

Destroyer
12-14-08, 11:44 PM
I raced a maybe late 80's to early 90's Camaro one day. I could hear it idle at the stop sign and it had a cam, I could also tell the had soem gears from the prior stop lieght because he didn't hadly move and had to shift, he was in 3rd going into 4ht by the time we were going around 35-40 mph. Now, were leaving the next light and he stomps on it after we leave which I was suspecting so I stomped on mine. While he was banging gears I saw him look in his rear view mirror because I was like even with his back window so I could see right in his car.

By now I'm hitting 3rd gear and he's been through 3 gears hitting 4th. It was kind of funny about now because he was looking in his mirror and he didn't see me, when he finally figured out that bending around looking in the mirror from different angles wouldn't help, he looked to his passenger side and to my delight, I had pulled up even with him by then. Did he look a little startled, you bet with a look of wonderment, what is this cadillac looking car doing alongside my rod after all these gears.

He had a v-8 for sure and he started prior to me, just rolling when he let it go which like I said, I was anticipating so I was wot right. He still had an ever so slight jump and we were just rolling when we started. From a dead stop, bothstarting together, I beat that car by 1-2 lengths. He was a bit mad but did give me a thumbs up when we finished our little downtown stroll.


There are camaro's and CAMARO's. You my friend raced a camaro, probably a TPI 305 OR TBI 305.

Enygma
01-04-09, 03:00 AM
Since the topic is headers, I thought others might find this header system interesting. For those that have hood clearance issues, this would not be an option. However, it does resolve several issues but of course, adds several other concerns. Here is what he did: “he swapped the cylinder heads left to right so the exhaust ports are inboard, with the headers coming out the top of the engine”. Is there any reason this would not work? Will it work on all N*s? I’m using a Northstar from a ’97 Deville with no hood clearance problems. Of course, new intakes will need to be fabricated but it gets rid of the restrictive cross-through tube.

I found this doing research on supercars. This is a very creative use of a Northstar. Check it out at http://www.joeharmondesign.com/. Would you believe a twin supercharged N* in a wooden supercar?

Enjoy;
E

97EldoCoupe
01-04-09, 09:58 AM
Good luck! I can't even begin to mention the problems associated with that. Oil pressure/return passages would not line up. The chain guide system would have to be redesigned. Water pump crossover would have to be severely modified. The list goes on.

Until I actually see the engine running I won't believe that it does.

msta293412
01-05-09, 11:17 AM
Destroyer, As far as your question to what about the N* was revolutionary, I dont know how old you are but I will refer you to all the car publications of the day (93-94), as they are all better sources to plead my case than I am. I mean a mostly aluminum 32 valve v-8 with MORE than 1hp per cubic., at the time was pretty impresive....not to mention YES, I find the total package a pretty awesome deal at its conception.....again were talkin 15 years ago...today, it still holds up, but modern high end cars have surpassed that ....and is really a moot point in comparison....

Raze
01-05-09, 01:24 PM
4 valve DOHC engines have been around since the 1920s, GM experiemented w/an Olds 455 4 valve DOHC engine in the 70s, Mercedes had an All-Aluminum 4 valve DOHC V8 w/VVT as early as 1990, so I fail to see what all the fuss over this thread is about.

Love your N* because it's a damn nice engine, but don't proclaim it "master of the universe" :)

Destroyer
01-05-09, 10:06 PM
Destroyer, As far as your question to what about the N* was revolutionary, I dont know how old you are but I will refer you to all the car publications of the day (93-94), as they are all better sources to plead my case than I am. I mean a mostly aluminum 32 valve v-8 with MORE than 1hp per cubic., at the time was pretty impresive....not to mention YES, I find the total package a pretty awesome deal at its conception.....again were talkin 15 years ago...today, it still holds up, but modern high end cars have surpassed that ....and is really a moot point in comparison....Well, I'm a year older than you and I am a car enthusiast through and through. I also owned an '85 Porsche 928 with a DOHC 32 valve V8 so I know that there was nothing "revolutionary" about a N*. Ford put out a better DOHC V8 the very same year as the N* as well and I own 2 cars with the Ford DOHC of the same displacement. The N* may have been revolutionary to Cadillac and GM but not in the larger automotive scheme of things. The N* was impressive when it came out but that was BEFORE it was proven to be nothing more than an expensive boat anchor.

97EldoCoupe
01-06-09, 02:04 AM
In that case, I love the boat anchors that power all of my cars....

GizmoQ
01-06-09, 03:04 AM
After that last comment from 97EldoCoupe :nuffsaid: :nothing2add:

msta293412
01-06-09, 11:47 AM
Im with 97eldocoup and gizmoq.........I get what destroyer is saying, I have a lot more automotive knowledge, than you are being led to believe. But, If you look back in the archives of Motortrend and Car and driver.....You"ll see what i am refering to......Thats all....By the way my total package just gave a late model 350z all it can handle. pretty good for a 4100 pound car, powered by an expensive boat anchor....bring on your mark 8!! :-)

Dubya
01-10-09, 07:58 PM
This thread has provided me many LOL's

thank you Deystroyer for pointing out that a high 14 second (at best) cadillac is not as fast as alot of people on here think.

But what also amuses me is that you think your mark VIII is a cut above? and you really think they too didn't have a TON of problems? they have just as many issues if not more, which is part of the reason there resale is absolute dirt as well, and its tough to find one without issues.

you can't say the northstar is junk, and think that 32v intech v8 isn't.

Destroyer
01-11-09, 11:00 PM
nk.

But what also amuses me is that you think your mark VIII is a cut above? and you really think they too didn't have a TON of problems? they have just as many issues if not more, which is part of the reason there resale is absolute dirt as well, and its tough to find one without issues.

you can't say the northstar is junk, and think that 32v intech v8 isn't.If the Intech 32 valve had many problems it's news to me but I'll make sure I spread the news to the owners of the Lincoln forums so they know. As a mechanic friend of mine put it, "the Mark will fall apart before having any engine problems". When I brought him my '98 Deville he says "Dude, those are the biggest pieces of shit". All I know is that I had a '95 Mark with no problems and currently have a '98 for almost 2 years with no major problems. Problems: BS air suspension; $400 for coil set up which looks cool as hell with the drop in height. HID's, 1 was out and I opted for an aftermarket kit for $140. Not bad for 18k miles of driving. The resale is absolute dirt as it is for almost any luxury car. The 32V Intech has powered SUV's, Supercharged and N/A Cobra Mustangs, Mach 1 Mustangs and is the basis for cars such as the Ford GT. It's one hell of a motor and I have owned hundreds of cars. The DOHC Ford is superior to the DOHC N*. My ex '04 Mach w/Vortech went through over 25k miles of pure punishment on Sebring and dragstrips all over FL (11.7@121mph) and NEVER flinched. That car was all stock and never broke a gasket. Had only bolt-ons/exhaust/blower. Northstar can't handle being driven by 80 year old farts at 20mph under posted speed limits here in FL. Piece of crap.

Submariner409
01-11-09, 11:08 PM
Po' Baby..............He said, she said.

Destroyer
01-11-09, 11:17 PM
Po' Baby..............He said, she said.How are you doing with your N* doing 20 mph under the speed limit?

Submariner409
01-12-09, 01:22 PM
:bouncy: The great thing about up here on The Eastern Shore is that NOBODY drives 20 MPH under the speed limit - more like 20 over !! Thank God I don't live in a Florida gated enclave with golf carts and identical mailboxes........maybe in 15 years or so, but not now: I'm having too much fun driving the snot out of the STS (3,500 miles to the quart of 5W-30, Destroyer :thumbsup: ) and building Olds boat engines. I have too much car and motorcycle racing time under my belt to become a white-knuckle right-lane homesteader.

Destroyer
01-12-09, 10:55 PM
.....and building Olds boat engines. I have too much car and motorcycle racing time under my belt to become a white-knuckle right-lane homesteader.
I am a fan of Olds motors as I built a 462 Olds motor for my '67 Cutlass (442 clone) and they are incredible boat motors as well. I'm no white knuckle right lane homesteader though. As a former NY'er I can say without any regret that I love the state I live in.

Dubya
01-12-09, 11:29 PM
If the Intech 32 valve had many problems it's news to me but I'll make sure I spread the news to the owners of the Lincoln forums so they know. As a mechanic friend of mine put it, "the Mark will fall apart before having any engine problems". When I brought him my '98 Deville he says "Dude, those are the biggest pieces of shit". All I know is that I had a '95 Mark with no problems and currently have a '98 for almost 2 years with no major problems. Problems: BS air suspension; $400 for coil set up which looks cool as hell with the drop in height. HID's, 1 was out and I opted for an aftermarket kit for $140. Not bad for 18k miles of driving. The resale is absolute dirt as it is for almost any luxury car. The 32V Intech has powered SUV's, Supercharged and N/A Cobra Mustangs, Mach 1 Mustangs and is the basis for cars such as the Ford GT. It's one hell of a motor and I have owned hundreds of cars. The DOHC Ford is superior to the DOHC N*. My ex '04 Mach w/Vortech went through over 25k miles of pure punishment on Sebring and dragstrips all over FL (11.7@121mph) and NEVER flinched. That car was all stock and never broke a gasket. Had only bolt-ons/exhaust/blower. Northstar can't handle being driven by 80 year old farts at 20mph under posted speed limits here in FL. Piece of crap.


The air ride suspension isn't the only problem mark Viii's had, which is a much more expensive system to fix then you try to allude too. Yes you can convert to a coil setup though. How about the inability to make a driveshaft that didn't vibrate at highway speeds in ANY of the years?

I am curious though, if the N* is such a crappy engine why do you see so many with 140k, 160k, 180k for sale? if you dont think that there are no high performance N* motors out there you are also sadly mistaken. I dont think its better then sliced bread, but its not a junk motor. it had one big issue....after 150k usually, the headgasket blows.

I thought the SUV motors were different? is it only the head being sohc? i chuckled a little when i read that because my older bro had a 99 expedition that blew a headgasket, 2 months later the engine had to be replaced. then he replaced it with a 00 and it blew a head gasket a few years later, both 5.4's. i also had a 98 4.6 f150 that blew a headgasket (company vehicle). Blowing headgaskets is what ford is known for, ESPECIALLY in the 4.6/5.4 truck engines

Ur7x
01-13-09, 12:13 AM
I am a fan of Olds motors as I built a 462 Olds motor for my '67 Cutlass (442 clone) and they are incredible boat motors as well. I'm no white knuckle right lane homesteader though. As a former NY'er I can say without any regret that I love the state I live in.

You can add me to the list of Olds motor fans...

But Destroyer has a bit of a point here... ask any machinist... and they are the ones who know... what they think of the NorthStar...

When I went to machinist to pick up my Olds 350 Heads after a port, polish, compression mill, and value job my machinist helps me load the heads into my STS trunk... He looks on the Caddy and says.. "You like the car?" I say "Ya its a great car"... He smiles and asks, "How many miles on it?" I tell him about 80,000 miles... He says "Sell it before 120"... I say "Headgaskets?" he says "Yup"... He says he used to have a exclusive contract at the Cadillac dealer down the road and he would do all of the timeserts for Northstars... He said some weeks his shop would do 10 a week, two a day! He said the Northstar put his kids through college.

He echoed much of what AJ has said and that lots of the blocks were way past gone and the timeserts or bigserts wouldn't hold... He said that he saw lots of blocks with aluminum that looked as strong as a block of cheddar.

I told him that we are all pretty sure that it was a problem with 1997-99 blocks, that my car was a 2002 and that GM had fixed the problem in 2000 and then again in 2004...

He shrugs and says... Maybe... But he wouldn't risk it...

He is an amazing machinist... in spite of his doom and gloom, if my head gaskets go I will probably be talking to him about installing the Stud kit being sold by a member here.

One thing is for sure there IS a major problem with 1997-99 Northstars... Is it a casting problem? An aluminum problem? A "hardening" problem? or a Coolant problem? We will never know... and if GM knows they aren't talking... But to deny the problem is just paying "Ostrich"...

If you have a 97/98/99 you need a headgasket "savings" account that you stick $30 a week into... In less then 2 years you will have enough to fix the car if they fail... if they don't take a Hawaiian holiday when you sell the car. Since my car is less then half as likely to blow I have been puting away $15 a week.

Sure, some will last forever, way too many won't.

97EldoCoupe
01-13-09, 12:16 AM
Destroyer; from reading Subs posts, he's one of the last guys that will be caught doing "under the limit".

Olds boat motors? Olds is still my favorite iron engine of all time. You can't kill those V8s.

97EldoCoupe
01-13-09, 12:20 AM
I continue to defend the Northstar. The HG's are not that hard to do- not as hard as everyone thinks. And the studs make the block absolutely bulletproof again. You can set your mind at ease once the HG job is done- think to yourself "My HG's are good for another 8-10 years, if not more, and the studs will never pull out or let loose".... Nothing more to worry about. Fix the Northstar if it needs it, and enjoy again.

delatorre1986
01-13-09, 02:22 AM
I had good luck with lincolns..... I had a daily 91 towncar with 150k that I beat the living S**T out of and wouldn't die tranny started shifting ruff, rear wheel feel off going 50mph... I hit a car with it smashed the van pretty good and car looked liked nothing happened to it, only one window went up and down power seats stopped working headliner drooping had a idle problem turn out to be a vacuum leak... bought the car for $1300.00 after the previous owner had it for a year and spent over $3000.00 in repairs i turned around and sold it for $900.00 after 2 years of use not a bad car.

------------------------
I also had a 1997 towncar had 112,000 miles transmission started slipping and I had to replace intake manifold, it was a nice car.
-----------------------------------
Friend of mine in high school had a 98 mark 5, decent car, but I didn't like the cockpit feel of it we modified the air suspension we put larger valves in the bags, up down side to side, they popped after a year.
--------------------------------
What it comes down to is sometimes your lucky sometimes your not they are old cars.
Destroyer I don't know why you like to talk about a car you don't have anymore, I mean what do expect to hear from people who have a northstar engine in a caddy forum? when you come out and say the engine is garbage. If I go to a Lincoln forum and start saying, man I had a 97 Lincoln towncar and the tranny started slipping bad, I guess all Lincolns have shitty trannys... that's why I bought a caddy, they would start flaming me to death. I have a feeling you'll buy another caddy though, because it seems you spend more time in caddy forums then lincoln forums.

Submariner409
01-13-09, 01:51 PM
These pics are also way back in some obscure thread......this is a 1971 Olds 455 bored to 461 (+.030) and set up as a high torque/mid RPM workboat engine. Lots of tricks and stuff....look hard (See the slightly different color heads before painting ?? That's a pair of Mondello street ported Ga units, Manley valves, with the heat riser passages filled.) All ARP bolts. Runs a 50/50 mix of green coolant, manifolds and all, through 40' of copper pipe under the boat..keel cooler. These dyno out to around 400 HP, but at 4,400 rpm, with enough torque to move the barn. Easy to build, bulletproof, and last forever. Pennzoil 15W-40 Long Life fleet oil. The engine shown has over 8,500 hours on it now and will go to at least 12,000. Figure your Northstar at 12,000 hours at an average 40 MPH. :yup:

97EldoCoupe
01-13-09, 03:37 PM
Hey Sub I love your engines.... But (dumb question about to surface) what are those interesting exhaust manifolds? Preheaters of some type?

Submariner409
01-13-09, 04:49 PM
Clever thought, but - no. This is a header thread, so here goes......marine exhaust manifolds are either raw (sea) water or freshwater cooled in order to control heat in engine rooms and confined spaces. The engine install in the boat pic is actually covered by a soundproof box lined with foil/foam, so there would otherwise be a staggering amount of retained heat......the manifold jackets in these pictures are hosed to the original heater/bypass circuit so 180 degree water flows through the jackets at all times. The keel cooler has plenty of surface area to handle the extra heat load. My boat runs dry stacks, but others actually dump a separate raw water supply into the exhaust pipe downstream of the manifold in order to cool the whole rig. ("Wet exhaust"). I get away with dry pipes and glasspacks lagged with woven fiberglass tape. You can grab a pipe at 2300 RPM and not be burned....

Ur7x
01-13-09, 06:14 PM
Now that we have completely hijacked this thread... Here is my Olds 355 (30 over 350)

http://www.members.shaw.ca/gregtsmith/images/ready%20to%20go.jpg

On the hook:

http://www.members.shaw.ca/gregtsmith/images/Engine%20swap%20009.jpg

Submariner409
01-13-09, 09:43 PM
Nice work...........yesssssssssss!!! Edelbrock or Weiand intake........??

Ur7x
01-14-09, 01:03 AM
Thanks!

Its a Holley Street Dominator. Open plane 1500-5000 RPM...

I actually made a fake drop base dual snorkel air cleaner so this high rise intake will fit under my hood AND looks bone stock.

http://www.members.shaw.ca/gregtsmith/images/finished%20engine%20006.jpg

97EldoCoupe
01-14-09, 11:49 PM
I've done so much work on Northstars - I miss the Olds V8s.....

I have a chance right now to buy a 1985 Olds Delta 88 Royale coupe - yeah the 2 door version. 403 under the hood. a thousand bucks....... SO TEMPTED....

GizmoQ
01-15-09, 02:41 AM
I've done so much work on Northstars - I miss the Olds V8s.....

I have a chance right now to buy a 1985 Olds Delta 88 Royale coupe - yeah the 2 door version. 403 under the hood. a thousand bucks....... SO TEMPTED....

And if it was the vert, I'd fly up myself with the cash!

97EldoCoupe
01-15-09, 09:02 AM
I just wish they made a Delta 88 convertible in the 80's.... 1985 was the last year for the RWD Delta.... and I believe the new FWD platform was introduced that year as well.

Submariner409
01-15-09, 09:57 AM
Jake, Sitting in a shop here on Kent Island there are 3 NOS Olds 455's still in the original crates. '72 or '73, I believe, the old 11:1 compression engines. Bought from City Olds in Baltimore when it went out of business in the late 70's. One has never been unpacked or uncrated - the owner wants around $3500 for it. The other two suffered water damage 3 years ago and have been uncrated and the heads removed and everything sprayed down with preservative oil. Of course, each would have to be disassembled and lubed before installation. None have ever been run. Kind of cool to see a "brand new" 36 year old engine.

97EldoCoupe
01-15-09, 01:04 PM
That's not too bad of deal for an NOS 36 year old engine!!!! Sub...I'm getting ideas......1985 Delta 88 Royal Coupe, NOS 455 engine in it with 0 miles............

Or.... a RWD 1997 Eldorado powered by an Olds 455 torque monster....