: The Post Car Society



Lord Cadillac
05-23-08, 11:38 AM
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/05/23/is-japan-facing-a-post-car-society/


Large numbers of people in Japan's urban centers are not buying cars. Surveys have revealed a variety of reasons, from the cost of purchase and ownership, to vehicles simply not being status symbols anymore, to cars being passť -- as in "so 20th century." The greatest worry is that young folks are simply not into cars, preferring cell phones and gadgets to Cubes and keis. Losing their audience before the love affair has even begun is no doubt causing JDM manufacturers to lose sleep.

And the even worse news is that the trend is expected to continue, with another 1.2-percent drop in sales predicted this year.

The article goes on to state that the same thing is expected to start happening in Europe. I predict it'll happen here as well.. Automobiles are just becoming too expensive.. It costs $45k-$50k for a good car these days. That's ridiculous. Eventually, people are going to start realizing that cars aren't worth the debt they put them in.

Between car payments with interest, gasoline, repairs, maintenance and insurance - the average person practically needs a second job to afford a good vehicle.

I think I may, myself, trade in both my wife's car and my own and just buy one new car and get something extremely cheap to use (that's paid for) in the event that one of us needs the car while the other is out.

gothicaleigh
05-23-08, 11:51 AM
Gas prices must be getting to me too, because I'm starting to find these attractive:

http://media.popularmechanics.com/images/piaggio-mp3-430-0208.jpg


Reviews only make me want one more:
http://www.gizmag.com/go/8251/


:gothiscared:

hueterm
05-23-08, 12:07 PM
Yeah, but most people (and fewer people should than do) don't buy a $45-50K car. You can get a decent new car for half that, and you can get a NICE used car for half that or a little more.

There are too few places in the US where it is feasible to not have a car. NYC, yes / Chicago, maybe...but other than that -- you're pretty much screwed.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
05-23-08, 12:48 PM
I'll never buy new. Let someone else dish out the dough and take the big hit on depreciation. Used all the way for me!

urbanski
05-23-08, 12:51 PM
It costs $45k-$50k for a good car these days. That's ridiculous. Eventually, people are going to start realizing that cars aren't worth the debt they put them in.

its that thinking that keeps people in car payments forever, while they keep unfunding their retirement savings.
you DONT need to spend 50 for a good car. that 50K car, in 3-4 years is $10K, and if researched properly and diligently before buying can last for another 8-10 years. Pay that 10 in cash, you have relieved yourself of car payments and have reliable transportation for a decade, all the while scoffing at those who say your car isnt "good enough"...while you fund your Roth.

RightTurn
05-23-08, 12:56 PM
Originally Posted by Auto Blog
Large numbers of people in Japan's urban centers are not buying cars. Surveys have revealed a variety of reasons, from the cost of purchase and ownership, to vehicles simply not being status symbols anymore, to cars being passť -- as in "so 20th century." The greatest worry is that young folks are simply not into cars, preferring cell phones and gadgets to Cubes and keis. Losing their audience before the love affair has even begun is no doubt causing JDM manufacturers to lose sleep.

And the even worse news is that the trend is expected to continue, with another 1.2-percent drop in sales predicted this year.



It's pretty common in the large cities of the US already where public transportation is readily available. Unfortunately for the majority of Americans there is no such luxury. We are forced to own a vehicle just to get to/from work, shopping, etc.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
05-23-08, 12:56 PM
Nothing like having a sweet 10 year old luxury car that somebody else took the depreciation hit on, until it's time for the repairs....

dwight.j.carter
05-23-08, 01:28 PM
I agree my car had a window sticker of 55k I paid 8k for it last spring. Thanks to whoever took the hit on that one.

dwight.j.carter
05-23-08, 01:30 PM
Gas prices must be getting to me too, because I'm starting to find these attractive:

http://media.popularmechanics.com/images/piaggio-mp3-430-0208.jpg


Reviews only make me want one more:
http://www.gizmag.com/go/8251/


:gothiscared:

Where might I purchase one of these ? And how much are they ?

I~LUV~Caddys8792
05-23-08, 01:31 PM
There's no way I could probably ever afford a new S Class, atleast not reasonably. They retail now for about $87,000 for the S550, and up from there. Back in '99, my six cylinder model went for about $71,000. I picked it up for a very reasonable $14,000 so I'm more than happah. :rockon:

orconn
05-23-08, 06:07 PM
While we all are benefitting from others preference to buy "new" and pay the front end load for what will become our high quality transportation in the future. And as the vast majority of people are unfamiliar with the nuances of annual change and the extended redesign cycle in the luxury car universe we also benefit from the vicarious prestige (I have a friend whose chest swells with pride from the fact he drives a 15 year old Jaguar that anyone with a paying job could afford to buy) that the cars orignal price and the status that that price gave the car first owner. Let's face it while a well care for Chevy or Ford is just another "used" car a similar vintage Mercedes and too a lesser degree Cadillac can pass as a prestige car despite it's highly demimished price tag.

So let's thank all those who can pay for the initial costs for allowing us members of the middle income world to enjoy the luxury of high technology and quality build ......... because without these benfactors there would be no Luxury cars!

Night Wolf
05-23-08, 06:17 PM
In Japan and Eurpoe, they have a mass transit system that works, that allows people to not have a car.

As was mentioned, very few places in the US are like that. NYC is one, and maybe San Fransisco? I dunno, never went there.

Heck, Atlanta's Marta buss isn't even all that good... and around here? the only public transportation here is running and trying to hop on one of the freight trains that is passing by. I work about 8 miles from home, and there is no other way for me to get to work unless I drive, not even someone to carpool with. In my small town there is one small overpiced grocery store and a bunch of other small stores... the big Kroger in the next town over, which has all the big stores and places to eat is about 15-20minutes away (where I used to live when I rented a house), which isn't bad at all and it's a nice drive.

But, a car is needed here.

I don't think a car alone has been a status symbol since the 1940's Really, since then, if you needed a car to get around, you had one.... may not be the newest or most expensive looking thing, but still, people had cars.

I agree tho, if you are smart about buying a car, the payments, as well as most other issues become nearly non existant. No way in heck I'd spend anywhere near $50k on a new car.... there is no need to buy a new car and take such a hit.

I paid $1,800 for my '94 Isuzu Amigo, and $3,500 for my '96 Lincoln Town Car. Both are still here, I use them all the time and they serve the same exact purpose as a new car would for me. In the case of the Isuzu, everything on it from the interior features to the engine is so simple, you simply do not find stuff like it anymore, and that is cool to me, and in the case of the Lincoln.... there is nothing new that can touch what that car offers unless I spend way more then I would on a car.

Truth is, if people lived within their wages, spent less then they made and stayed out of debt, then it woudln't matter how high gas goes, because it would just be accepted as a day-to-day expense, like food. But with gas going up, it's cutting into peoples vacation fund, insane car payment that is mostly intrest or HDTV payment because everyone is so quick to finance everything and look at the "monthly payment" instead of paying for it stright up.

I'll get off the tangent now...

77CDV
05-25-08, 12:09 AM
Most folks don't think much about their cars anyway. Never have. For most people, a car is just another appliance they own for a specific purpose. People like us, who enjoy cars and all the things about them, are and have always been the minority. It doesn't help that 99% of cars today have as much excitement quotient as a bar of Ivory soap.

dkozloski
05-25-08, 12:29 AM
Most folks don't think much about their cars anyway. Never have. For most people, a car is just another appliance they own for a specific purpose. People like us, who enjoy cars and all the things about them, are and have always been the minority. It doesn't help that 99% of cars today have as much excitement quotient as a bar of Ivory soap.
Ivory soap floats. That's exciting!

CIWS
05-25-08, 12:39 AM
Aren't we supposed to be flying around in our own personal aircraft by now ?

AMGoff
05-25-08, 01:51 AM
It's bound to happen in any place that's both geographically small and has a superb public transportation system... Japan's first on the list... the major population centers of Europe are next... then maybe the large cities of America.

However... it will be a very, very long time before this becomes an overall trend in the US, Canada, or any other geographically large country... The distances between places are simply too vast for public transportation to be effective, let alone feasible. The only trend we'll see here is towards more increasingly efficient vehicles and less none-essential trips - both of which aren't necessarily bad things.

Frankly.... I'm saving my pennies for a Volt. 40 miles on a single charge... I'll only have to fill up once a month - if that. As far as I'm concerned, if they deliver as promised... it'll wipe the floor with any of the Japanese hybrids.

hueterm
05-25-08, 02:13 AM
For a lot of the driving needs out there, the plug in car would work great -- however, can our electrical infrastructure handle it? Not a problem in the short term as not enough of them would be on the road. But in say 15-20 years when we might see a lot of these...?

AMGoff
05-25-08, 03:17 AM
While we all are benefitting from others preference to buy "new" and pay the front end load for what will become our high quality transportation in the future. And as the vast majority of people are unfamiliar with the nuances of annual change and the extended redesign cycle in the luxury car universe we also benefit from the vicarious prestige (I have a friend whose chest swells with pride from the fact he drives a 15 year old Jaguar that anyone with a paying job could afford to buy) that the cars orignal price and the status that that price gave the car first owner. Let's face it while a well care for Chevy or Ford is just another "used" car a similar vintage Mercedes and too a lesser degree Cadillac can pass as a prestige car despite it's highly demimished price tag.

So let's thank all those who can pay for the initial costs for allowing us members of the middle income world to enjoy the luxury of high technology and quality build ......... because without these benfactors there would be no Luxury cars!

I must have missed that one originally. :hmm: Boy... you sure are on a roll here lately, aren't you?


For a lot of the driving needs out there, the plug in car would work great -- however, can our electrical infrastructure handle it? Not a problem in the short term as not enough of them would be on the road. But in say 15-20 years when we might see a lot of these...?

I don't necessarily like the idea of a "pure" plug-in electric vehicle... mostly for the scenario of what happens when one runs out of "juice." But I absolutely love the idea of the Volt for several reasons... First being, that if I do run out of charge I know that I'll be able to keep going and second being that my daily commute to work and back (on the days that I actually go into my office) is only 9 miles each way... that leaves me with an extra 12 miles or so to putter around town - and that's under the assumption that I don't plug 'er in while I'm at work. With that sort of range... I'll rarely have to get gas... and it'll even be great for longer trips. While the original concept came with two-six gallon tanks with a max range of about 640 miles, the latest information says that the production model will probably come with a single 7-gallon tank which will be good for about 350-375 miles - that's about the farthest I'll ever driver... any further and I'll usually just fly or take the train... it's just nice to think that we'd be able to take our summer trip to Virginia on a single $28-32 tank of gas!

As far as any strain on the electrical grid goes... I can't imagine that the charging system will draw any significant amount of amperage. I suppose after widespread adoption, they could pose a problem to areas already prone to period electrical shortages (ie - rolling blackouts in the summer months, etc...), but I couldn't really see them posing any problem overall.

urbanski
05-25-08, 08:34 AM
While we all are benefitting from others preference to buy "new" and pay the front end load for what will become our high quality transportation in the future. And as the vast majority of people are unfamiliar with the nuances of annual change and the extended redesign cycle in the luxury car universe we also benefit from the vicarious prestige (I have a friend whose chest swells with pride from the fact he drives a 15 year old Jaguar that anyone with a paying job could afford to buy) that the cars orignal price and the status that that price gave the car first owner. Let's face it while a well care for Chevy or Ford is just another "used" car a similar vintage Mercedes and too a lesser degree Cadillac can pass as a prestige car despite it's highly demimished price tag.

So let's thank all those who can pay for the initial costs for allowing us members of the middle income world to enjoy the luxury of high technology and quality build ......... because without these benfactors there would be no Luxury cars!


I must have missed that one originally. :hmm: Boy... you sure are on a roll here lately, aren't you?

.
he's right. what's your exact problem with what he said?

CadillacSTS42005
05-25-08, 12:55 PM
There's no way I could probably ever afford a new S Class, atleast not reasonably. They retail now for about $87,000 for the S550, and up from there. Back in '99, my six cylinder model went for about $71,000. I picked it up for a very reasonable $14,000 so I'm more than happah. :rockon:

damn
i paid 16500 for my 03 STS
and id like to think the STS has alot more going for it than your Benz no offense
do most Benz's catch that kinda used price?

c5 rv
05-25-08, 01:27 PM
In the past 60 years, American demographics have changed dramatically, and a lot of it assumes having affordable personal transportation. People moved from both the cities and farms to suburbia and exurbia for good reasons ranging from jobs, lower crime, personal space, etc. While some folks, probably young adults and retirees, may consider moving to the city and take advantage of public transportation, many folks will want to remain where they are. As someone previously said, I think the "big thing" will be plug-in hybrids assuming personal (household) and public infrastructure can handle it. (We don't want to have rolling blackouts due to charging cars along with food shortages from growing biofuel. Nor do we want a rash of garage / house electrical fires.)

I have a 90 mile round-trip commute. A plug-in hybrid would almost cut my gasoline cost in half, probably more since the MPG while running the motor-generator would probably be >30 MPG. For many folks with short commutes, the percentage of gas savings would be even greater.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
05-25-08, 02:01 PM
damn
i paid 16500 for my 03 STS
and id like to think the STS has alot more going for it than your Benz no offense
do most Benz's catch that kinda used price?


It's all in the eyes of the beholder my friend, in the eyes of the beholder.

I know you don't like M-B at all, no matter what model, so I don't really take anything you say against my car worth more than a grain of sand, but I do see your point though. Your STS was a STEAL when compared to my car. It was four years newer, had ~30k less miles on it, and has a much more powerful engine. But Cadillacs depreciate much faster than Mercedes, or atleast they did, and in many people's eyes, the Benz still has much more percieved "status" than a Cadillac does, no matter if the Benz is down 72 horsepower and is up around 600 lbs more than said Cadillac.

Many would not like the Benz for whatever reason, many would not like the Cadillac for whatever reason. It's all in the eyes of the beholder. I like 'em both though, I'd gladly buy either one (again). Actually, come to think of it, the 2003 STS is one of my all time favorite Cadillacs, and almost certainly my favorite post 1992 Cadillac. I still don't know if I'd rather spend the money on a good '00-02 ETC, 00-05 DTS or 02-03 STS.....

I paid $12,995 for mine before taxes and everything. That was for the 320-L, the second most "economical" S Class for 1999. I think a good S600 (the $130,000 V-12 model) is still $19,000 + nowadays. The S500 (the second in line to the S600) is still $17,000 nowadays, so I'd say I struck a pretty good deal. It was a lot cheaper than any comparable 7 Series, LS, XJ or A8.

AMGoff
05-25-08, 02:48 PM
he's right. what's your exact problem with what he said?

Just seems to be a lot of various tangents with negative tones lately... Especially when in general there seems to be less of that going on here compared to a couple months ago... it just sticks out like a sore :thumbsup:

caddeville89
05-26-08, 12:50 PM
Um, hate to tell you but when people can't visit their family anymore because of gas prices, they may get a bit negative.

Post-car society...hmmm...I guess that would really depend on our all moving into the city so we can use public trans... not likely to happen soon, or goig back to an agrarian type of living. In the pre-car world, most everybody was dependent upon local trade, if not dealing exclusively with their direct peers, then with surrounding towns. There were certain commodities that were brought from afar, but these had a big price tag. At any rate, a short walk or buggy-ride was usually all that was needed in order to get where you were going. It is an interesting study in economics.

A certain high-ranking government official commented that America is "addicted to oil". It's kind of funny, because that's the way we've been told we should be for the past 80+ years. Kind of like telling your kids that they should eat as many cookies as they want, then getting mad at them because they are fat, then telling them they can't have any food at all. I don't think the solution is for everybody to throw out their cars and buy an electric tin can on wheels. I think we need to expect our automobile companies to invest in better technologies (that do exist) and better engineered parts. Of course, they get paid for selling people new cars every year, not for building good cars that people will keep that won't break, so I seriously doubt that will happen. :thepan:

Anywho, Happy Memorial Day y'all!

Jesda
05-26-08, 09:56 PM
Cadillac resale = Poo
MB resale = Pretty darn good

Thats just how it is, regardless of actual quality or performance.