: Timecerts pulled out !



knuckledragger
06-01-04, 09:15 PM
I have the engine out of my car, blown rear headgasket.I timecerted the back bank and the two upper corners pulled out. I had a machine shop weld and put new timecerts in. Doing the final torque to yield sequence they pulled again.I have found and purchased a used engine but I would like to repair this one.Can I stud the heads?Any ideas are welcome.

eldorado1
06-01-04, 09:18 PM
Is that even possible? :shocked:

zonie77
06-01-04, 10:35 PM
Studding the head is possible. You just have to find the right stud.

Why is the timesert pulling out? Is the loctite not holding? How are the threads in the block? Timesert also has a larger size insert. Look at their website.

To use studs you would just need the right threads and length. You might have to go directly to the stud mfg to ensure you are using the right length.
The other thing would be the torque spec. It should be a ft/lb reading since you wouldn't be using torque to yield fasteners.

knuckledragger
06-02-04, 10:36 AM
Apparently the metal has become soft, I am thinking because of heat cycling.I had the corners welded and timecerts reinstalled they still pulled.I would like to have it done again if possible and stud it this time to use in a hot rod or resale.Does anyone have any experience with studding these engines?Torque specs, etc.Thanks for any help.

dloch
06-02-04, 12:07 PM
Alan @ ChrFab has.. You might want to give him a call

zonie77
06-02-04, 02:27 PM
Timesert has the "bigsert" kit but that's a pretty big expense again. I think someone a ways back posted that they used it but don't know who that was.

That would be a good idea even with the studs.

Can you have the corner holes filled (welded in) and redrill to take the original timesert?

knuckledragger
06-02-04, 04:55 PM
I have already had them welded once. I thought that studs might be an alternative with the big kit. I know that gm has changed the headbolt design for late model ,but I was unable to get the new bolts.

zonie77
06-02-04, 11:38 PM
After I reread the thread I realized you had welded them before :bonkers:

If the timeserts are pulling out I don't know if studs will elininate that. The force on the timesert will be the same. How about JB weld when you install it? Possibly some other product stronger than the loctite.

Was this a new kit with the right loctite?

dloch
06-03-04, 04:14 PM
After I reread the thread I realized you had welded them before :bonkers:

If the timeserts are pulling out I don't know if studs will elininate that. The force on the timesert will be the same. How about JB weld when you install it? Possibly some other product stronger than the loctite.

Was this a new kit with the right loctite?
The JB Weld is what I was going to suggest, fill the hole and everything around the timesert with it....

knuckledragger
06-03-04, 05:21 PM
I work in a multi line dealer on chrysler/jeeps ,but we also have gmc/pontiac.One of the techs on the gm side is a cadillac guy. He is working with me on this .Yes we used the correct/gm parts and he is as puzzled as I am over this.The new bonneville is using this engine ,so we have all of the tools for it.The new kit came with timecerts that are different from my engine.I attempted to order head bolts to go with the new timecerts with no success.Thanks for the help guys.

zonie77
06-03-04, 07:43 PM
Are the new timeserts using a different thread size?
If not why don't the bolts work?

growe3
06-03-04, 09:08 PM
I work in a multi line dealer on chrysler/jeeps ,but we also have gmc/pontiac.One of the techs on the gm side is a cadillac guy. He is working with me on this .Yes we used the correct/gm parts and he is as puzzled as I am over this.The new bonneville is using this engine ,so we have all of the tools for it.The new kit came with timecerts that are different from my engine.I attempted to order head bolts to go with the new timecerts with no success.Thanks for the help guys.
Did you get the wrong kit?

If the Timeserts are the correct diameter and pitch, but shorter than required, that would explain them pulling out. The Timeserts should be 30 mm long (1.18").

The correct head bolts, with the multiple special coatings, come with the head gaskets.

It is sounding like a mismatch of parts is causing the problem.

-George

knuckledragger
06-05-04, 06:23 PM
Actually I did use the correct timecerts and bolts.When the new tool package came in we compared the kit with the one we used.The new one is different ,thread pitch and depth.I did not want to spend the money on another headgasket package if it did not work.you can get the headbolts seperately,but was unable to get them.No release date.I am running on 3 mo of down time on my car so I opted to put a used in and repair this one at my leisure.

BeelzeBob
06-05-04, 11:16 PM
Actually I did use the correct timecerts and bolts.When the new tool package came in we compared the kit with the one we used.The new one is different ,thread pitch and depth.I did not want to spend the money on another headgasket package if it did not work.you can get the headbolts seperately,but was unable to get them.No release date.I am running on 3 mo of down time on my car so I opted to put a used in and repair this one at my leisure.
You MUST have gotten the wrong timesert insertsor wrong kit previously. The inserts in the Northstar kit from timesert are much longer than the standard inserts of that size and they HAVE NOT CHANGED SINCE 1993. If your inserts that you used were shorter than they were replacements in the kit....erroneous replacements. If the shorter, standard timesert inserts are used then they will pull out.....that is why there is a special Northstar head bolt kit and special Northstar headbolt inserts. Also, there is not way that the thread PITCH changed on the inserts....no way. Must be a different kit or different manufacturer of inserts or something. The thread pitch of the timesert inserts hasn't changed in over 25 years that I have worked with them in Cadillac engines (4.1/4.5/4.9 and Northstar) and the thread pitch of the standard inserts and the Northstar headbolt inserts is the same.


Or...am I misunderstanding your post and you got the Bigsert kit....????

BeelzeBob
06-05-04, 11:20 PM
BTW...aluminum doesn't get "soft" with heat over time...if anything it gets harder and stronger. You never got the engine hot enough to cause the aluminum to "soften". Aluminum is not like iron or steel that tempers or softens if it has been hardened. It just doesn't work that way.


Do not waste time with JB Weld trying to repair a head bolt hole....LOL LOL JB Weld is good epoxy and I use it all the time for repairs.....but....it will NOT hold a head bolt hole.


If you cantact timesert they have a "bigsert" kit for the situation you have encountered that has inserts with a larger OD thread. As before, there are special Northstar head bolt hole "bigserts" that MUST be used...they are longer than the conventional inserts. Bigserts will definitely work.

Aurora By Olds
06-06-04, 12:18 AM
[QUOTE=bbobynski]Do not waste time with JB Weld trying to repair a head bolt hole....LOL LOL JB Weld is good epoxy and I use it all the time for repairs.....but....it will NOT hold a head bolt hole.
QUOTE]

It's held up in mine for about 10k so far...LOL..but that's a little different story.

dloch
06-07-04, 10:29 AM
[QUOTE=bbobynski]Do not waste time with JB Weld trying to repair a head bolt hole....LOL LOL JB Weld is good epoxy and I use it all the time for repairs.....but....it will NOT hold a head bolt hole.
QUOTE]

It's held up in mine for about 10k so far...LOL..but that's a little different story.
I have used a different type that has held head bolts.... Devcon, but it also packed up below the deck surface as well. Not saying it was the best way to fix the problem but it did work long enough until we made the proper fix.

BeelzeBob
06-07-04, 12:06 PM
I don't doubt that Devcon or JB Weld could momentarily make a temporary patch to plug up a head bolt hole.....but.....there is NO WAY that anything like epoxy is going to hold the load of a head bolt. Just NO WAY. Not for more than a temporary patch. Heck, you could put a new engine together with half the head bolts and it would probably run for awhile....that is about the same as putting JB Weld into a threaded head bolt hole and assembling the engine. Just don't bother putting the bolt in.....LOL.

Aurora By Olds
06-07-04, 11:20 PM
I don't doubt that Devcon or JB Weld could momentarily make a temporary patch to plug up a head bolt hole.....but.....there is NO WAY that anything like epoxy is going to hold the load of a head bolt. Just NO WAY. Not for more than a temporary patch. Heck, you could put a new engine together with half the head bolts and it would probably run for awhile....that is about the same as putting JB Weld into a threaded head bolt hole and assembling the engine. Just don't bother putting the bolt in.....LOL.Well, mine still had threads for the one insert I used it on, so it doesn't really count :shhh: but its still fun to say my head's heald on with JBWeld.:D