: Stick or Paddles...



anim8orCTSV
05-17-08, 04:44 AM
So I got off the phone with Cadillac and they tell me that they are now taking orders for the 09 CTS-V (at least from the dealers).

I was wondering how would you decide on getting the manual vs. the automatic transmission.

I know that I want the Manual but I was just curious how you would decide.

It seems, to me, that previous owners (the majority of them any way) would want the manual. I would guess that new buyers would be more open to the Automatic.

-Paul

jasaero
05-17-08, 06:47 AM
Well the latest news that even with a good driver the Auto might actually be quicker even when you let the computer shift for you has me kinda scratching my head. My wife can't drive stick either so that kinda hurts the manual also. I love driving my current V though so it's kinda perplexing. I would probably end up going with the manual more just for the fun of the daily drive in a manual. It does make the daily commute more involved if that is what you use your V for. To some that is bad, but I tend to not have a traffic jam commute so it helps more than it hurts. Watching John KILL the ring in an auto with such ease makes one wonder though!! I'll wait till mags compare the two setups probably.

I think such a choice is pretty rare in this category. You usually get one or the other at this level due to limited parts bin choices because of the power levels. They either develop or beef up one specifically for a car like this or just use the heaviest duty existing one they have and that usually ends up narrowing things to one choice. Of course the E60 M5 arrived here with the SMG only thing going on, but BMW went back to the drawing board when customers blew up on them about the lack of full on manual. They eventually had a manual M5, but I hear it's not nearly as refined in launching and other things as the SMG version because the computer NEEDS more control to keep things civil. Hopefully this isn't the case with the V2 and the manual is just as civil and refined for the most part as the Auto. Or as close as you can expect from a manual anyhow.

StealthV
05-17-08, 10:45 AM
With the rear gear ratio differences, the TR6060 manual should be a faster accelerating car, especially in the popular 3rd gear runs, with the caveat of the human being (no pun intended) able rip off good shifts between gears. As shown in the recent Heinrocket at the 'Ring video, the 6L90E automatic has the simplistic operational advantage of just put it in "D" and mash the pedal.

And when it comes to faster, they should be within a tenth of a second and a one mph or two in a quarter mile race. This again places the emphasis on the driver's shifting ability. Quarter Mile Estimates (tick conservative, based on known engineering data along with a few SWAGs)


Stick - 12.61 @ 115.79
Auto - 12.72 @ 114.50

Will the automatic to manual ratio will be similar to the Corvette ratio? Many will want the stuck in traffic, simple for the wife to drive, still technically fast as hell, slushbox.

If the V development crew benchmarked the ZF automatic transmission of the BMW E60, the tuning of the automatic in the V will be better than any GM product that has come in the past (GM's 6L80E tuning in my pickup *was* rubbish until I fixed it) and truly be worldclass for holding gears, downshifting, etc.

Comes down to apples and oranges. Which do you prefer at 6:00 AM driving to work to get a smile on your face?

P.S. The V is not a racecar. So sayeth GM. :D

HiTechRV
05-17-08, 10:54 AM
I want whichever has the better 0-60. If they are dead even I'd probably pick the manual.

StealthV
05-17-08, 11:06 AM
Then you'll want the AWD version. :lildevil:

StealthV
05-17-08, 11:16 AM
I want whichever has the better 0-60. If they are dead even I'd probably pick the manual.

Crunching the numbers, the equation spits the following times for zero to sixty:

Automatic = 4.60 seconds
Manual = 4.76 seconds

Cadillac Tony
05-17-08, 11:21 AM
Something's not right in your equation, because the '09 is going to do 0-60 in 4 flat.

StealthV
05-17-08, 11:48 AM
That would be wonderful. There's the little bit of 4500 lbs to move that gets in the way.

Cadillac Tony
05-17-08, 12:00 PM
2008 Mercedes E63 AMG

4,315 Curb weight
507hp
465lb-ft tq
0-60 4.3sec

That's basically identical curb weight to the V, but with 50 less hp and 100 lb-ft less torque. 4,500lbs/465tq = 9.68lbs per lb-ft. Compared to the CTS-V 4,500/550(est) = 8.18lbs per lb-ft. That means the Benz has roughly 18% more mass per lb-ft of torque to get moving than the new V will (and that's even assuming that the 550 estimate sticks- chances are it'll be more like 560).

HiTechRV
05-17-08, 12:16 PM
Crunching the numbers, the equation spits the following times for zero to sixty:

Automatic = 4.60 seconds
Manual = 4.76 seconds


Stealth I keep telling you your numbers do not add up. With almost 100 less hp, and a worse, peakier hp curve my STS-V has the numbers you are predicting for the CTS-V. How can my stock car hit those numbers with only 469 hp and a small displacement 4V, and the new CTS-V with almost 2 liters more displacement not do much better than your prediction?

anim8orCTSV
05-17-08, 12:58 PM
Wow great info guys. I think I am going to stick with the Manual.

One question though, what are all of the testers driving?

And I saw this...

The 2009 Cadillac CTS-V has broken the eight-minute mark for a lap around the Nurburgring Norschleife, putting in a lap time of 7:59:32 during testing, which may be the fastest lap time ever for a sedan. (http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2008/112_0805_2009_cadillac_cts_v_nurburgring_lap_times/index.html)

...What were they driving when they did this? Or is it doing it every time with both flavors.

-Paul
anim8orCTSV

thebigjimsho
05-17-08, 01:22 PM
I want my own gears and I want them NOW!

I would take a stick or an electronically controlled clutch auto w/ paddles...

Cadillac Tony
05-17-08, 01:38 PM
The 'ring lap time was set in an Automatic car. GM's own blog stated that the manual driver was incredibly busy (between shifting, driving and steering), yet Heinricy looked like he was taking a leisurely cruise and never once used the shift paddles.

SkullV
05-17-08, 04:51 PM
Then you'll want the AWD version. :lildevil:

GM engineers at Summit Point GUARANTEED me there will be no AWD version of the new CTS-V...EVER.

dqw1
05-17-08, 05:03 PM
Paddles this time around if I can afford one.

JEM
05-17-08, 09:09 PM
My position: I'm leaning toward the automatic (and it truly pains me to say that as a long-time believer in the virtues of stirring one's own lever) but I want to drive one before committing (well, truth be told, I'm waiting to see if they'll do a wagon, I'm in no particular rush.)

And yes, the sub-8-min Nordschleife lap was done with the slushbox.

Rich H
05-17-08, 10:04 PM
There's just something about using your left foot on the clutch pedal and right hand on the gear shift that can't be duplicated with an auto (or even a SMG) to give you the ultimate driving experience - even though that sounds like a BMW commercial. Every car I've owned since my first, a 71 Z28 Camaro, has been a stick shift and the rest will follow with one as well.

JEM
05-17-08, 10:36 PM
If they do a wagon, we might pick up one of each. Go, XOM, go!

thebigjimsho
05-18-08, 03:17 AM
There's just something about using your left foot on the clutch pedal and right hand on the gear shift that can't be duplicated with an auto (or even a SMG) to give you the ultimate driving experience - even though that sounds like a BMW commercial. Every car I've owned since my first, a 71 Z28 Camaro, has been a stick shift and the rest will follow with one as well.I consider myself a purist however, I find a clutchless manual to be in the same realm as a 3 pedal vehicle. So I don't necessarily favor a 3 pedal...

ItsJustMyCaddy
05-19-08, 10:37 AM
Stick. It's one of the reasons I didn't jump on the $1k/month E55 lease special they were having around the time I bought my '07 V. The automatic does not allow for me to have a "relationship" with the car, it would just be getting me from point A to point B. When I tell non-car enthusiasts that, they just look at me funny, but I am sure many of you feel the same. If you pick the appropriate shift points, perform the appropriate maintenance, etc, you can get the most out of your car.

JEM
05-19-08, 04:22 PM
Stick. It's one of the reasons I didn't jump on the $1k/month E55 lease special they were having around the time I bought my '07 V. The automatic does not allow for me to have a "relationship" with the car, it would just be getting me from point A to point B. When I tell non-car enthusiasts that, they just look at me funny, but I am sure many of you feel the same. If you pick the appropriate shift points, perform the appropriate maintenance, etc, you can get the most out of your car.

As far as I'm concerned it's all in the calibration.

With enough torque an automatic can work really, really well.

But...whoever's setting the thing up has to know what they're doing and be working toward the proper set of goals.

Most automatics are calibrated to resist part-throttle downshifts, and even when you've got pushbuttons or a tiptronic-type lever there's so much delay built into the thing while the engine controls back out timing, etc. to smooth the shift that it just flat doesn't work.

When you step on the gas hard enough to move your foot 3/4in on the pedal, the transmission should be down a gear and ready to go by the time your foot has reached where it's going, you should not have to wait for the thing to make up its mind, while you push further and further trying to get the SOB to kick down and eventually get disgusted and just stomp the friggin' gas through the floor (at which point it lurches into a two-gear downshift and lunges toward the rev limiter) which is what it takes on some BMWs.

When you nudge the lever or button the gear change should happen by the time your hand is off the control, not a deliberate 7/10 of a second later like it does in most 'Tiptronic/Steptronic' Audis and BMWs and etc. Driving one of those cars (like the '02 Audi S6 kidmobile out in the driveway) is like driving a laggy turbo - you have to do everything a little in advance, guess where you're going to want an upshift or downshift well in advance and submit the request so that the ECU can forward it to Munich or Ingolstadt for approval before acting upon it.

The hardware is physically capable of proper behavior, it's the engineers doing the setup who don't have the mindset for it.

Take, for instance, the old E36 M3 automatic (yes, they built 'em, and they worked pretty well) vs an E36 328i of the same year with the same basic gearbag. The M3 clicked off clean, smooth upshifts and downshifts on command, with foot-induced downshifts happening quickly with no delay. By contrast, getting the 328i to do anything useful was an exercise in futility.

Rich H
05-20-08, 12:18 AM
I consider myself a purist however, I find a clutchless manual to be in the same realm as a 3 pedal vehicle. So I don't necessarily favor a 3 pedal...

The one important thing missing from a SMG or other "clutchless manual" is the ability to slip the clutch at high torque loads to remove strain from the rest of the drivetrain. In the Gen 1 V, or a number of other cars that suffer from excessive wheel hop at launch, this takes some load off of the rear end. Of course, the other option is to get a set of hard compound tires that allow more slippage at launch. However, I prefer to slip the clutch just enough at the start to prevent excessive wheel spin. Is it hard on clutches? Sure - but clutch discs are cheaper than rear-ends. And frankly it takes some skill to master it rather than just dumping the clutch.

CIWS
05-20-08, 08:59 AM
Paddles.

thebigjimsho
05-20-08, 10:28 AM
Paddles.kinky.

gothicaleigh
05-20-08, 02:09 PM
GM engineers at Summit Point GUARANTEED me there will be no AWD version of the new CTS-V...EVER.

Huzzah! :gothismile:

I've been saying that from the beginning. It makes no sense to tie that weight around the neck of a performance sedan. If anyone desires nonsense like that, they can go shop at Audi or pick up an AWD 3.6DI CTS (which should be a decent alternative if you are of the mind to value ease of use over performance).





Now paddle shifting versus rowing gears...
I do love manual. You can not match the level of involvement and feel of a manual with a switch, no matter how well it reacts. But with what has been reported about the autotragic in this car, it would honestly be hard to choose the manual over it. Guess I would just have to kick futilely at the dead-pedal while clicking switches like a Playstation controller if I ever bought one... because I think I would choose the paddles.

thebigjimsho
05-20-08, 02:14 PM
Mark Feffman is god.

John Heinrecy is God...
...or so it seems...
...to others here...
...not me...
...although I do like John...
...I just like God more...
...much more...
...that still sounds blasphemous...

I~LUV~Caddys8792
05-20-08, 04:20 PM
Paddles for me. Given the cars I've owned, you can tell that I don't like much driver involvement...

lawfive
05-20-08, 04:53 PM
I'm gonna go for the automatic. At least not everybody here is dead set against that as they were the last time I brought this up... :yay:

chris1268
05-20-08, 05:35 PM
I hate even thinking this, but I might actually decide on the paddles given what I am hearing. That much power in an automatic just does not sound as fun though.

BLACK_CTSV
05-20-08, 07:47 PM
Paddles for me :cheers:

urbanski
05-20-08, 08:43 PM
handcuffs

urbanski
05-20-08, 08:44 PM
was that not a choice?

JEM
05-21-08, 02:48 AM
handcuffs

He drives a black Cadillac
Whips and furs in the back
He drives a black Cadillac
Whips and furs in the back
And if you dance to the music
The night will last
The night will last
The night will go on and on...

noelvm
05-21-08, 08:41 AM
Well, when I was young good clutches were mechanical and you ran an 11" Borg & Beck 12 spring with three prongs. If you tried to hold it at a light very long your left leg would start to shake. But it worked. I read too many post about guys fryin todays clutches at the track after 5-10 passes. Hydroliclly operated??? What a joke.
I don't think the clutches today can handle high hp, high torque engines. While I never had any problems putting my vette up on jack stands and changing a clutch disc or throwout bering in the driveway, I don't really care to do that anymore.

I have a current CTS with the auto and manual and once I got use to always pushing it [most of the time :-)] to go up in gear I liked it and the automatic is great when you get stuck in stop n go driving. If you're going to drag race it the automatic is the only way to go because it is far more consistant. Bracket racing today is about being consistant, not the fastest. The automatic with the manual mode gives you the best of both worlds. Just buy the extended warranty as automatics are more expensive to rebuild than manuals as a rule.

noelvm

thebigjimsho
05-21-08, 09:09 AM
Hydroliclly...Yeah, I'd like a coupe of porterhouses, 4 center cuts and 3lbs of ground beef. Thank you.

RightTurn
05-21-08, 09:15 AM
A coupe of porterhouses? Do they have those? :coffee:



:lol:

thebigjimsho
05-21-08, 11:33 AM
A coupe of porterhouses? Do they have those? :coffee:



:lol:I don't know. It was early in the morning. Dammit, the j key, l key and the spacebar are spacing out on me. Plus, the cooling fan isn't working properly. Guess that's the downfall of a 5 year old laptop...

V-Love
09-01-08, 05:08 AM
:bump: Too many multiple threads these days.

Now that some of the magazine tests are out, I think this will be the biggest decision for me. I really like the track but if technology shifts faster than me, I could be concentrating on other things out there(like a nice DVD on the Poptart Nav). I do love the stick but this is gonna be a tough decision. It looks like the manual could be outdated as far as speed goes. The whole driver involvement is another aspect. I'm gonna have to try both.
Do I dare look at the color chart?

concorso
09-01-08, 04:41 PM
Id want a manual, but Im not the only one who'll be driving the car. Adding the auto certainly will increase their customer base...

About the paddles....I haven't seen anyone mention this, but they won't be paddles, judging by the pics Ive seen. There will be 2 small buttons on the backside of the steering wheel. This could cause some problems potentially when youre hands are moving around the wheel quickly and you have to look for the button...

but since it seems this auto is perfectly set up in auto mode, I probably will never touch the buttons...

lawfive
09-02-08, 04:53 PM
Yeah, that.

buf05CTSV
09-02-08, 07:42 PM
6 speed for me, hands down.

CIWS
09-02-08, 08:41 PM
It won't matter if she uses stick or paddles. Either way she'll still be one naughty girl and her competition will all be saying how they were whipped.

:abuse:


:D

(Wait which form is this ?)

jimbo1320
09-02-08, 10:03 PM
If you want the fastest choose the auto, (see the motor trend test results) Same to 60 than the auto outruns the stick to the tune of a tenth or two in the quater mile. The times were respectable for both. The good news is the cost is the same, your choice same as the vette. Also think about what you will be putting the drivetrain though every time you power shift, 551 lbs/tq. Oh no not I, I've been around to long to fall for "it will take it" from GM or anyone else. The auto should shift fast and precise. Think about it, coming into a corner and poking the paddle and wala down one gear.
One more thing, after owning a 04 that drove well it was still a relatively heavy car. I would prefer to have a lighter more agile car if I were shifting, (vette). One last thing that drove me nuts. Stoplight drags. I always had to take off in second and roll on the thoutle otherwise I would have to shift while the other guy would be gone. Understand these were not all out full bore take offs, just the fun ones.
Can you guess my chioce?

EricVonHa
09-03-08, 01:57 AM
Don't believe the hype from the magazine(s) about the zero to 60 or quarter mile comparisons, period. Rarely do they ever get a manual and automatic trans car at the same exact time, with the same exact driver, on the same exact day. Different weather conditions on different days yields non-consistent results.

gary88
09-03-08, 03:08 AM
If they offered a true SMG-like transmission, I'd take that over stick in a heartbeat. Paddles on an automatic are silly.

LV_V
09-03-08, 02:03 PM
If they offered a true SMG-like transmission, I'd take that over stick in a heartbeat. Paddles on an automatic are silly.

Why is that? Even BMW's SMG transmission isn't a true sequential gearbox. It's still an "automatic with paddles".

With that being said, I am sticking to the 6-speed manual on the V2, but I want to drive the automatic before making my final decision.

gary88
09-03-08, 08:31 PM
Why is that? Even BMW's SMG transmission isn't a true sequential gearbox. It's still an "automatic with paddles".

With that being said, I am sticking to the 6-speed manual on the V2, but I want to drive the automatic before making my final decision.

I drove an SMG M3 and was completely floored by it and how lightning fast it shifts. It also rev-matches by itself on downshifts which is neat.

And believe it or not, it is a true manual. It's the same exact six-speed gearbox as the regular manual, but with a computer controlled automatic clutch actuator. No torque converter either. Now BMW is ditching SMG for DCG (double clutch gearbox) similar to Audi's DSG.

It's a personal preference though, some people just love the clutch pedal. I doubt Cadillac would consider putting a transmission like it in a V, but I can dream right?

dubeiram
09-04-08, 03:18 PM
Paddles = Posers..:stirpot:

Just kidding.... but there no substitute for a manual transmission... or half baked solution.... if you want the feel and experience of a stick shift.. then get a stick shift... if it is not for you get an automatic... pushing buttons on the steering wheel ???:hmm:

lawfive
09-05-08, 12:37 AM
I drove an SMG M3 and was completely floored by it and how lightning fast it shifts. It also rev-matches by itself on downshifts which is neat.

And believe it or not, it is a true manual. It's the same exact six-speed gearbox as the regular manual, but with a computer controlled automatic clutch actuator. No torque converter either. Now BMW is ditching SMG for DCG (double clutch gearbox) similar to Audi's DSG.

It's a personal preference though, some people just love the clutch pedal. I doubt Cadillac would consider putting a transmission like it in a V, but I can dream right?

DSG :drool:

Note: the sport mode auto in the V2 also blips the throttle on downshifts.

cadillac04
09-05-08, 12:39 PM
Have just pe-ordered the 09 in black/ebony with the MANUAL :thumbsup:. I still want to drive the car and not just ride along. Car won't be built til Oct. and delivery is probably in late Nov. Will trade in my 2004 V.

concorso
09-05-08, 09:15 PM
I still want to drive the car and not just ride along. Heinricy just rode along on his 'ring run hey? :) :P :hide:

cadillac04
09-06-08, 12:27 AM
Heinricy just rode along on his 'ring run hey? :) :P :hide:


But I'm NOT Heinricy.....and I don't do any ring runs......I drive on city streets and roads ..........

HiTechRV
09-07-08, 10:48 AM
Paddles = Posers..:stirpot:

Just kidding.... but there no substitute for a manual transmission... or half baked solution.... if you want the feel and experience of a stick shift.. then get a stick shift... if it is not for you get an automatic... pushing buttons on the steering wheel ???:hmm:

Actually the the double clutch-based "autos" that are a manual without the clutch pedal shift better than any driver. The days of manuals are limited on high end cars. They will be religated to cheapie models in a few years.

v84life
09-08-08, 01:22 AM
Actually the the double clutch-based "autos" that are a manual without the clutch pedal shift better than any driver. The days of manuals are limited on high end cars. They will be religated to cheapie models in a few years.

That's when I will buy one. Till then I'm going with the manual... I still love driving my current V. Can only imagine driving the new car.... Decided tonight what I'm ordering. This car even at 4.1 to 60 is going to rock.:bouncy:

This type of performance is equal or better than the first Gen Z06... I had 2 of those... That was plenty... Now it's going to be in a people hauler. Oh my.... People who have owned the first Z06's know that car was a kick in the pants to drive....

Now having build quality and interiors on par with the rest of the world this car is going to kick ass .:thepan:

Buying this one and can't f@#!@ng wait...Fealing like a kid waiting for Christmas:shhh:...Got my fingers crossed it's a keeper.. Have to get this purchase done and paid for before the pre-college funds take over. This car is going to be a big purchase. Wish I knew the price....:hmm::hmm:

V-Love
09-08-08, 03:57 AM
But I'm NOT Heinricy.....and I don't do any ring runs......I drive on city streets and roads ..........
There is some Heinricy in there somewhere. V day II is comin'....Get that baby on the track.:yup:

dubeiram
09-08-08, 10:08 AM
Actually the the double clutch-based "autos" that are a manual without the clutch pedal shift better than any driver. The days of manuals are limited on high end cars. They will be religated to cheapie models in a few years.


Well I dont know about in just a few years.. and the dual clutch technology is great.. and Im sure back in the day when automatic transmissions came out everyone said the same thing .. manual transmissions are on borrowed time... but here we are decades later and are still banging around at all levels of automobiles from the corvette to the aveo... I still feel the die hards need that connection of the clutch pedal thru their left left over to their right arm... and you dont get that with the dual clutch.. even though I know it is more advanced, as is automatic transmission..to many just a more sophisticated "semi" automatic transmission.. and will never replace that connection and feeling of control...

Rich H
09-08-08, 10:38 PM
Well I dont know about in just a few years.. and the dual clutch technology is great.. and Im sure back in the day when automatic transmissions came out everyone said the same thing .. manual transmissions are on borrowed time... but here we are decades later and are still banging around at all levels of automobiles from the corvette to the aveo... I still feel the die hards need that connection of the clutch pedal thru their left left over to their right arm... and you dont get that with the dual clutch.. even though I know it is more advanced, as is automatic transmission..to many just a more sophisticated "semi" automatic transmission.. and will never replace that connection and feeling of control...
I couldn't have said it any better. As long as there are cars driven by true sports enthusiasts (ie, Diehards) there will be manual trannys with a REAL clutch activated with the left foot. I've tried all the rest and there is no substitute.

atdeneve
09-09-08, 07:11 AM
Just because you choose/prefer a clutch pedal-stick shift interface, doesn't make you a true sports enthusiast or a diehard. Conversely, choosing otherwise does not preclude you from being a true sports enthusiast, either.

With that said, I'd choose the manual.

However, as a counterpoint, if I were to pick up a Scuderia, I would be hard pressed not to seriously consider the F1 transmission. The latest iteration of that tranny shifts stupid fast and when you're taking possession of such a vehicle, fast is your only modus operandi. Hell, I'm not even sure if that is available with anything other than the F1 transmission. And I don't think that anyone s'gonna argue against that car qualifying as a true sports enthusiasts machine.

Rich H
09-09-08, 03:18 PM
^^^ If your definition of an enthusiast's ultimate driving experience is simply going fast or shifting fast then you are missing a big part of the what I consider to be motorsports. There is a distinct feeling of connection with a piece of automotive machinery that can't necessarily be measured with elapsed times - and that is what the manual offers that no other shifting arrangement can offer.

atdeneve
09-09-08, 07:52 PM
I never sad that. In fact, I never proposed any definition of what an "enthusiast's ultimate driving experience" would entail.

It is kinda funny how you make it sound like I'm the one narrowing the definition down to one single attribute, though. That's exactly what I was pointing out to be wrong with your assertions...

And I doubt you can say that the Scuderia lacks that "distinct feeling of connection with a piece of automotive machinery."

Rich H
09-09-08, 10:47 PM
It's time to get off the fence and make a decision. Is it going to be the Cadillac CTS V with a manual or the "Scuderia" with a F1? I've made my decision for about $200,000 less. Shifting in 60 milliseconds is not worth the extra cash IMO. The final V2 test drive will solidify it and the automatic is not in the cards...

atdeneve
09-10-08, 07:20 AM
Dude, what are you talkin about? I said I'd go with the manual. How is it that I have to get off the fence? And choose between a manual CTS-V or a Scuderia, no less? What?!? Are you reading anything I've said or are you just picking randomly out of context to suit you in spitting chicken shit.

As mentioned above, the F1 tranmissioned Scuderia was simply a counterpoint to illustrate that a vehicle not equipped with a manual does not necessarily preclude it from being an example of a "true sports enthusiasts" setup.

I made no direct comparison between the Cadillac CTS-V and the Scuderia, nor implied any such comparison, cuz, well, that would just be assinine. But, since you have somehow gloriously managed to take it there, any idiot can still see that a Scuderia with an F1 transmission, is exponentially more of a "true sports enthusiast's" piece of automotive machinery than a CTS-V, manual or not.

But, hey, if you're gonna twist words and take em out of context, then there's no point in continuing in such a discussion. Might as well go in a corner, talk to the wall, and jerk myself. If nothing else, at least I'd have gotten off, even if all I'm left with is a dick in my hand. Any valid points or arguments are more than welcome, but otherwise, you should do the same - go in the corner, talk to wall, and jack off. We'll both be ahead that way...

dubeiram
09-10-08, 11:00 AM
YIKES!!! I am going to try and get this thread in a different direction... :)

anyway.. on why people buy manual transmissions.. it is not about technology!!! or whether things "qualify" as driving enthusiasts worthy..clearly the double clutch design is by far a great advancement as well as the AT back in the day... if you think about it in light of the advent of the AT and the dual clutch designs... driving an MT is like.....barbaric... like making toast with a blow torch... yet they still exists and we still buy them... because we want to... all the technology in the world will not change that.... it is really not that complicated...

Rich H
09-10-08, 11:31 AM
YIKES!!! I am going to try and get this thread in a different direction... :)

anyway.. on why people buy manual transmissions.. it is not about technology!!! or whether things "qualify" as driving enthusiasts worthy..clearly the double clutch design is by far a great advancement as well as the AT back in the day... if you think about it in light of the advent of the AT and the dual clutch designs... driving an MT is like.....barbaric... like making toast with a blow torch... yet they still exists and we still buy them... because we want to... all the technology in the world will not change that.... it is really not that complicated...

Thanks for instilling some sanity into this discussion. I'm not arguing that there isn't more technology out there. There certainly is and I have driven some of it. But did it really add to the "driving experience"? Not for me. A BMW SMG tranny probably comes pretty close to the new advanced dual clutch designs. It adds the ability to adjust shifting speed and smoothness and can come close to simulating an auto transmission or quick shifting manual with no intervention. But does it give the control of engine/drivetrain engagement that a manual gives? No.

So for those that like to have the car do the thinking for them and they have better things to attend to the auto or the SMG is fine. For me, and likely a few others, it's not.

And for those who can afford (or dream about) big bucks cars with F1 trannys - more power to them. For the rest of us, let's get back to reality.

atdeneve
09-10-08, 06:13 PM
Well, I'm a go off to my corner now to enjoy some fantasy. :bigroll:

1BAD4DR
09-11-08, 12:10 PM
i orderd the new automatic transmission with Paddles... it is faster

dwjz06
09-11-08, 02:11 PM
Auto this time around. Rowing gears in traffic sucks:thumbsup:

HPCC
09-13-08, 05:46 PM
What do you guys make of the "no-lift" feature of the manual? Imagine keeping your right foot planted and doing your best impression of Grumpy Jenkins back in the day... Is the throttle drive-by-wire or something? It's got to be more than simple rev-limit, no?

lawfive
09-14-08, 02:57 PM
a6 :cloud9:

concorso
09-14-08, 04:12 PM
Well, I'm a go off to my corner now to enjoy some fantasy. :bigroll:

Dont worry, plenty understood what you were saying...

Its ignorant for RichH to say that in an enthusiast has to drive a manual. Isn't it possible an enthusiast may just want the fastest version of the car? What, do only people who drive manuals REALLY enjoy their cars?

V-Love
09-15-08, 05:05 PM
What do you guys make of the "no-lift" feature of the manual? Imagine keeping your right foot planted and doing your best impression of Grumpy Jenkins back in the day... Is the throttle drive-by-wire or something? It's got to be more than simple rev-limit, no?

No-lift sounds pretty wild. I used to do that with dirtbikes and a Vulcan 750 I used to own. I can't imagine in a car. Wouldn't you lose traction and spin. Torque management must be involved.

HPCC
09-15-08, 07:52 PM
Before he retired, the Australian V8 Supercars coverage on Speed would occasionally show an inside the cockpit view of multi-time series champion Mark Skaife at work. On one occasion, he was speed-shifting into 2nd and 3rd, then power-shifting into 4th and 5th and then shifting into 6th without the clutch or lifting (constant-mesh?) He even had the presence of mind to do a brake-check at the end of every long straight. Amazing to watch.

When he was speed-shifting, he would preload the shifter and it would move just as soon as he jabbed at the clutch, but the revs sounded like they remained constant for the brief moment the clutch was in. Maybe it was happening so fast it sounded constant, but if this is what "no-lift" is about, you guys going with a manual are in for a treat!

lawfive
09-15-08, 08:53 PM
The A6 is no-lift, too. :cloud9:

Rich H
09-16-08, 01:03 AM
When he was speed-shifting, he would preload the shifter and it would move just as soon as he jabbed at the clutch, but the revs sounded like they remained constant for the brief moment the clutch was in. Maybe it was happening so fast it sounded constant, but if this is what "no-lift" is about, you guys going with a manual are in for a treat!

Exactly what I like, a little dual foot/hand coordination. Let's see anybody try that with a nanny restricted paddle shifter.

csp3000
09-18-08, 02:27 PM
I will have my V in Nov to early Dec. I got my 09 loaded and I got the V with the 6A. It was a very hard decision but in the end the auto made more sence for me with my life now. If the 09 coup V comes out soon then I will buy that in a 6M or just get a 08 Z06 and twin it and be done with it.

Cadillac Tony
09-18-08, 02:50 PM
The bottom line is that the A6 and M6 are both capable of similar 0-60 times IF you properly use the no lift shifting in the manual, but the Auto is still a heck of a lot better in traffic AND allows you to focus solely on your driving line in the twisties.

A6 FTW ( I know- sacrilege, right?).

lusterblade
09-18-08, 03:10 PM
I will have my V in Nov to early Dec. I got my 09 loaded and I got the V with the 6A. It was a very hard decision but in the end the auto made more sence for me with my life now. If the 09 coup V comes out soon then I will buy that in a 6M or just get a 08 Z06 and twin it and be done with it.

Gotta change your sig then.

csp3000
09-18-08, 06:52 PM
Gotta change your sig then.

I know....:(

coolcaddy1
09-19-08, 12:32 PM
No lift shifting. Used to do that in my jeep. :cool2: then I stripped 2nd....:histeric: no worries got it covered under warrenty tho...yes I knew one of the service guys... yes I greased him...alot :shhh:

WAT
09-20-08, 02:39 AM
To anyone who has driven the new CTS-V with an A6 (or any recent GM A6):

Is the A6 annoying in any way?

I've been driving sticks all my life, but am finally ready to switch to an auto. I have this Pontiac G6 rental right now with an A4 and it is surprisingly good, although in manual mode the shifts (especially downshifts) seem prone to be a bit abrupt (almost clunky). But I love how smoothly it will click off several upshifts in rapid succession when you nail it from a low speed and then ease off the throttle. On the flip side, I find myself wanting to roll to a stop in neutral (like I do with my manuals), rather than feel the slight surging of the torque converter as it downshifts.

concorso
09-20-08, 03:37 PM
rather than feel the slight surging of the torque converter as it downshifts. this takes some getting use to...

tophat02
09-20-08, 07:28 PM
My take on this: I'm planning on driving the 05 V for a few years. Then, when I can get a used 09+ V for 30-40K I will buy:

1) A CTS-V with paddle shifters
2) A used Z06 6-spd (of course)

At the same time :)

The way I figure it, I'd rather do this and get the best of both worlds than buy 1 new 60-70K car. Am I crazy?

HiTechRV
09-21-08, 09:31 PM
My take on this: I'm planning on driving the 05 V for a few years. Then, when I can get a used 09+ V for 30-40K I will buy:

1) A CTS-V with paddle shifters
2) A used Z06 6-spd (of course)

At the same time :)

The way I figure it, I'd rather do this and get the best of both worlds than buy 1 new 60-70K car. Am I crazy?

Crazy? No. Rolling the dice? Yes. You do not know how hard the used cars were beaten.

jimbo1320
09-22-08, 08:03 PM
Yes, I have driven many GMC pickups with the six speed auto. It works real nice though some have told me it tends to downshift alot. I find that it will as it should when climbing a hill. I expect that with the extra power in the "V" it will be less apt to back shift at inclines.