: 'Ring video up



jasaero
05-14-08, 08:10 PM
Just posted! (http://cadillac.gmblogs.com/)

Kidhummer
05-14-08, 08:27 PM
Just posted! (http://cadillac.gmblogs.com/)

Auto too!

jasaero
05-14-08, 08:30 PM
Exactly! The car makes an 8 minute trip around the Ring look near leisurely! If you read comments from the previos two posts they also confirmed that the bar is a support for the six point harness and that all the safety equipment added weight. They also pointed out the harness support bar was installed in a way to make sure it didn't add any stiffness to help handling compared to the stock version of the car.

MIACTSV
05-14-08, 08:47 PM
Awesome! Love that supercharger sound.

gothicaleigh
05-14-08, 09:32 PM
Listen. I think I hear egos shattering:

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=118663

RightTurn
05-14-08, 09:36 PM
Oh look. They're discussing the GT-R. :histeric:

CTSV_510
05-14-08, 09:42 PM
Listen. I think I hear egos shattering:

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=118663


:histeric:

Great reading! What pricks! Most of them are unwilling to admit that the CTS-V is even on par with their M5's, let alone quicker on the track!

I'd probably be the same way if I spent that much money on a bmuu and have to fear the day I pull alongside a factory-blown V.

Oh yeah, and what a beautiful video! :thumbsup:

HiTechRV
05-14-08, 10:01 PM
I wonder why they chose the automatic...

;-)

Cadillac Tony
05-14-08, 10:40 PM
Listen. I think I hear egos shattering:

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=118663


I read the comments there claiming that Cadillac MUST HAVE been using slicks and a roll cage to get those times. :lol:

I tried to register an account to post up the comments from the GM Blog (disproving the theories on tires and the cage), but they require you to enter what kind of car you have. I put in "Cadillac CTS-V", and still have yet to receive an activation email.

The M5 board is full of fail already, but if they won't activate an account for someone with a Caddy then it's downright epic fail. :rofl:

gothicaleigh
05-14-08, 11:08 PM
...and not a word since the video was posted. :rofl:

V-Love
05-14-08, 11:16 PM
Hey, no airbag stickers on the visors!!!! Thats not production. Those M5 guys are right.:histeric:

SRT8/BMW
05-15-08, 06:35 AM
what an amazingcar.....wow. A production sedan....this is goingto be fun!:yup:

StealthV
05-15-08, 09:08 AM
:histeric:

Great reading! What pricks! Most of them are unwilling to admit that the CTS-V is even on par with their M5's, let alone quicker on the track!


And many here are acting the same way towards the V - Probably something called brand loyalty.

M5 and V2 are not direct competitors - Two different markets, two different sets of customers. The M5 does provide a good benchmark to shoot for but that's it. <Insert dead horse getting beat>

RightTurn
05-15-08, 09:22 AM
Ya, but Caddy owners are exponentially cooler. :alchi:

CIWS
05-15-08, 09:58 AM
M5 and V2 are not direct competitors - Two different markets,

According to Cadillac the M5 is one of the direct target competitors to the V2.


I didn't see the video on the page, did they pull it already ?

gothicaleigh
05-15-08, 10:15 AM
According to Cadillac the M5 is one of the direct target competitors to the V2.

If the M5 isn't a competitor to the V2, I would like to know what is. The size, purpose, and available features common to both is so close that the two are pretty much different interpretations of the same car.

The newly refined V is very much in the company of M, RS, and AMG.

The Tony Show
05-15-08, 10:15 AM
And many here are acting the same way towards the V - Probably something called brand loyalty.



There's a huge difference bewteen us saying "BMWs are overrated or overpriced" and those guys saying "It's still just a Cadillac", "It's shit", or various "Old man" jokes.

Those guys look down their noses at American cars, but now they're seeing taillights when they do so. Suck on that, snobs. :D

gothicaleigh
05-15-08, 10:22 AM
There's a huge difference bewteen us saying "BMWs are overrated or overpriced" and those guys saying "It's still just a Cadillac", "It's shit", or various "Old man" jokes.

Those guys look down their noses at American cars, but now they're seeing taillights when they do so. Suck on that, snobs. :D

but but but...

we'd take you in the twis... er, nevermind.
enthusiasts require a 6 speed manu... dammit.
our interior is much better craf... what's that? hand craftsmanship and recaro seating? Oh nevermind.


I'm sure the V still won't smell teutonic enough or some such thing...
:lildevil:





*EDIT* Whoops. Forgot about that intoxicating nuance fragrance that Cadillac has perfected. Hold on, I'll think of something...





*EDIT EDIT* It's no e30! :D

V-Love
05-15-08, 10:34 AM
I was checking that video out. I didn't hear too many strange noises like the moonroof(don't think he had one) or rattles and creaks.
It looks like he was close to 180 mph on the last straight. Yeah baby! I bet this V is limited at 180+. That is fast. I'd like to see 200 before death.

BacDoc
05-15-08, 11:51 AM
If I was riding in that it wouldn't have a new car smell for long.

StealthViggen
05-15-08, 11:52 AM
Did anybody notice this was done with an AUTOMATIC!!! So much for the slush box haters.

BacDoc
05-15-08, 11:58 AM
Did anybody notice this was done with an AUTOMATIC!!! So much for the slush box haters.

You didn't read any of the thread did you?

urbanski
05-15-08, 12:02 PM
but

gtr 4 u

NormV
05-15-08, 12:11 PM
gtr 4 u

Did you see PS GT5 Prolog with the professional driver driving the -R? The steering mechanism must have been about worn out after the 8 min run in the wet on the 'ring.

Got to admit this car is not sliding all around nor is driver working hard at all. Looks like a Sunday drive through the twisties! :)

Norm

Silver -V-
05-15-08, 12:38 PM
I have a couple of questions after seeing the video and photos -
1) Are those going to be the stock wheels? I love 'em. They look way better than those that came on my '04.
2) In the photos on the track that were published, the car looks like it is lowered with springs. Am I wrong and it is just the suspension being compressed? Is it maybe the sport mode on the shocks automatically lowering the car for better control? Will this keep me from having to convince my wife I need to change out springs and shocks for the 4-5 track days I do every year?
3) The tires look to have a bit of an agressive alignment for the track. Is this a standard alignment, or is this a set-up Reed can get us for the FAQ board?
4) If the car is running this stock, does this mean they are running GM fluids? Did they have to change power steering fluid, brake fluid and diff fluid to allow them to run enough laps to get their awesome time? The PS fluid from GM seems to boil at the track faster than water. I would love to see GM put in Castorl SRF brake fluid at the factory! It is expensive, but it works great.

NormV
05-15-08, 01:14 PM
Same wheels on all three at summit point had the same wheels. Check with RS6 forums how much fun their having with MRC shocks.

Watch the videos from summit point as all three cars had similar ride height, whether standing or moving. Also notice the cold lap top exit out of the carousel by one of the 09 V's. Oops! :)

All Vs have a steering cooler and at Ring speeds there is plenty of suedlow for 8 minutes.


I have a couple of questions after seeing the video and photos -
1) Are those going to be the stock wheels? I love 'em. They look way better than those tgat came on my '04.
2) In the photos on the track that were published, the car looks like it is lowered with springs. Am I wrong and it is just the suspension being compressed? Is it maybe the sport mode on the shocks automatically lowering the car for better control? Will this keep me from having to convince my wife I need to change out springs and shocks for the 4-5 track days I do every year?
3) The tires look to have a bit of an agressive alignment for the track. Is this a standard alignment, or is this a set-up Reed can get us for the FAQ board?
4) If the car is running this stock, does this mean they are running GM fluids? Did they have to change power steering fluid, brake fluid and diff fluid to allow them to run enough laps to get their awesome time? The PS fluid from GM seems to boil at the track faster than water. I would love to see GM put in Castorl SRF brake fluid at the factory! It is expensive, but it works great.

Cadillac Tony
05-15-08, 01:42 PM
Re: Questions from Silver -V-

1) Are those going to be the stock wheels? I love 'em. They look way better than those that came on my '04.
-Yes, those are the stock painted wheels. There will be an option for the same wheel with a polished finish

2) In the photos on the track that were published, the car looks like it is lowered with springs. Am I wrong and it is just the suspension being compressed? Is it maybe the sport mode on the shocks automatically lowering the car for better control? Will this keep me from having to convince my wife I need to change out springs and shocks for the 4-5 track days I do every year?
-The pictures show the car under extreme compression of the suspension (such as hitting the bottom of a hill), which creates the illusion of being lowered.

3) The tires look to have a bit of an agressive alignment for the track. Is this a standard alignment, or is this a set-up Reed can get us for the FAQ board?
-See above. Camber increases as the suspension compresses. At a neutral height when sitting still, the alignment would appear normal.

4) If the car is running this stock, does this mean they are running GM fluids? Did they have to change power steering fluid, brake fluid and diff fluid to allow them to run enough laps to get their awesome time? The PS fluid from GM seems to boil at the track faster than water. I would love to see GM put in Castorl SRF brake fluid at the factory! It is expensive, but it works great.
-I assume that all the fluids were stock considering how much effort they went through to stress that the car was "completely stock" in the GM Blog

chris1268
05-15-08, 01:49 PM
Is it fall yet? I'm ready now!

Silver -V-
05-15-08, 02:09 PM
Tony and Norm - Thanks for the answers!

1fstkde
05-15-08, 02:27 PM
MAN CANT EVEN TELL IF THAT GUY IS DOWNSHIFTING AT ALL!! taking those curves like on rails!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:thumbsup:

phantasms
05-15-08, 02:55 PM
Found it on YouTube. A bit higher quality I think.

Ky8ZiO6ebn0

StealthViggen
05-15-08, 03:00 PM
You didn't read any of the thread did you?

Seems I missed that part! Love the all black interior!

StealthCTSVJJL
05-15-08, 03:11 PM
I guess there can no longer be any doubters, if this monstrous 4,300 lbs luxo barge with a super luxury interior, big trunk space, excellent rear seat accomodations, can be left in drive and run the 'ring in under 8 minutes, Cadillac has come of age in the super sedan business, especially if this sells for 60k. There is no AMG, M, or any other sedan (read 4 door luxury supercar) even remotely close. Frankly, it seemed to my that Heinricy could have been on his cell phone talking to the wife and kids while doing this.
With 100 or more less pounds, maybe even less weight with sunroof delete, we can expect the 6 speed manual to be even faster, but with the automatic killing every other competitive sedan in the market (not counting aftermarket tuners, remeber that Hennessey has confirmed a CTS-V for the future), the manual might be nothing more than an "old School" novelty, that some of us will still insist on.
I will be presentlng my deposit shortly.
The king(M5) is dead! Long Live the King(V2)!!

Lord Cadillac
05-15-08, 03:15 PM
I have an account there.. What would you like me to post up?


I read the comments there claiming that Cadillac MUST HAVE been using slicks and a roll cage to get those times. :lol:

I tried to register an account to post up the comments from the GM Blog (disproving the theories on tires and the cage), but they require you to enter what kind of car you have. I put in "Cadillac CTS-V", and still have yet to receive an activation email.

The M5 board is full of fail already, but if they won't activate an account for someone with a Caddy then it's downright epic fail. :rofl:

urbanski
05-15-08, 03:34 PM
no forum wars! :p

Cadillac Tony
05-15-08, 03:38 PM
I have an account there.. What would you like me to post up?

From the GM Blog:

This is Kevin from Cadillac writing to provide clarification on the questions regarding the harness bar and racing seats in the 2009 CTS-V that set the new stock production sedan lap record on the Nordschleife.

This 2009 CTS-V that John Heinricy drove to set the record was an absolutely stock, right down to the production-spec Michelin Pilot Sport 2 tires, 2009 CTS-V with a few minor changes to add safety that wouldn't in any way positively impact the result. As Chris already posted, the item that people see in the car and refer to as a "roll bar" or "role cage" isn't either. This is simply a harness bar that mounts to the floor and B-pillars to enable the use of a six-point racing harness for added safety. This harness bar is intentionally installed in the car so that it DOES NOT increase the torsional rigidity of the chassis or in any way change the way the chassis will function so their testing and development work will be of value for the production car.

The racing seats are installed for added safety as well and don't positively impact the performance of this production-spec CTS-V because the lighter weight of the racing seats is a little more than offset by the added weight of the steel harness bar.

In all, this production CTS-V weighs a few pounds MORE than the production car because of the weight of the harness bar and the few bits of test equipment onboard.

Lord Cadillac
05-15-08, 03:42 PM
Posting now, Tony...

gothicaleigh
05-15-08, 04:52 PM
Yep, to each his own. There are even BMW owners who hate the E60 M5.

...it's no e30. :shifty





I really need to get an account on that board. :D




You will have better luck flipping Lexus people....probably similar demographic to would-be Caddy owners.

Ouch. >.<
...of course I do know more Lexus owners on bimmerforums than I do here...

JEM
05-15-08, 05:01 PM
4) If the car is running this stock, does this mean they are running GM fluids? Did they have to change power steering fluid, brake fluid and diff fluid to allow them to run enough laps to get their awesome time? The PS fluid from GM seems to boil at the track faster than water. I would love to see GM put in Castorl SRF brake fluid at the factory! It is expensive, but it works great.

I wonder if they're still sticking with the 5W-30 Mobil 1 which IMO has always seemed too thin, what their oil temps look like after a lap, and as for Castrol SRF - I'd rather know the brakes have enough cooling not to need it.

As for the M5 vs CTS-V - they are the same market, I'm an E39 M5 owner, have no particular interest in an E60 M5 (don't like the interior on the E60 and I'm not fond of the latest buzz-bomb M motors), the last V was a nice mechanical package but the interior and general material quality was underwhelming (and anything with that limited rear-window visibility ought to have backup sensors), this one might be tough to pass up.

The Tony Show
05-15-08, 05:06 PM
Okay, time to own up: Which one of you is "Euro Car Fan" on the M5 board?

This guy reposted my earlier comment almost word for word, so who's the closet M5 owner here? :sneaky:

CIWS
05-15-08, 07:30 PM
Finally got to see the video, don't know what was up earlier today. The car sounds really good with the stock exhaust. :)

urbanski
05-15-08, 07:43 PM
i want an e42 gtr :shlick:

JEM
05-15-08, 07:59 PM
Okay, time to own up: Which one of you is "Euro Car Fan" on the M5 board?

This guy reposted my earlier comment almost word for word, so who's the closet M5 owner here? :sneaky:

Not me, I'm 'JEM' everywhere I can get it and I've been on m5board.com since...oh God, not that long!

Lord Cadillac
05-15-08, 11:12 PM
Am I crazy?
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1330367&postcount=57

RightTurn
05-15-08, 11:20 PM
:highfive: U da man, Sal. Can't wait to see his response. :lol:

HiTechRV
05-15-08, 11:29 PM
If the M5 isn't a competitor to the V2, I would like to know what is. The size, purpose, and available features common to both is so close that the two are pretty much different interpretations of the same car.

The newly refined V is very much in the company of M, RS, and AMG.

IMO Lutz (ex BMW guy) made the V2 expressely to suck the doors off an M5 and steal its customers.

Rich H
05-15-08, 11:38 PM
Absolutely no question whatsoever - the CTS V comparison target has been, and will continue to be, the M5 - speaking of which - the bet has gone to $1000 on the M5 board. :D

Lord Cadillac
05-15-08, 11:44 PM
Indeed it has.. $1000.00... BMW is surely at that stupid "ring" RIGHT NOW and they won't leave UNTIL they best the CTS-Vs time. So 30 days is plenty. Or, they're NOT at the "ring" and won't be until the NEXT M5 starts testing... So I have no doubt I'll win that bet if he takes me up on it - which he won't. The CTS-V is a better performing car than the M5 - and the sooner people can admit it, the better of we'll all be. :)

Lord Cadillac
05-16-08, 12:22 AM
The guy is twisting things around so badly that I don't even know WTF he's talking about anymore...

StealthV
05-16-08, 12:56 AM
My favorite quote from this forum's "My Cadillac's penis is bigger than your BMW's penis because it is cheaper" debate... T Bone "You will have better luck flipping Lexus people....probably similar demographic to would-be Caddy owners."


Okay, time to own up: Which one of you is "Euro Car Fan" on the M5 board?

This guy reposted my earlier comment almost word for word, so who's the closet M5 owner here? :sneaky:

My E60 has M5 wheels and it may not be a twin-turbo xi. :)

Where is my Vader packaged AWD V2? What the hell, make it a LS9. I'll pay extra. :stirpot:

bossplayer
05-16-08, 01:08 AM
There are several realistic posters on that board though, realizing what a nice car the V2 may be. I think a lot of them are beginning to like the V. :histeric:

StealthV
05-16-08, 07:14 PM
Until they have to take it back to the dealership and they get a Kia or maybe even an Aevo rental and get treated like they own a $500 Cavalier with 300k miles on it.

There's a reason V2 is cheaper...It's not the car's fault.

bossplayer
05-16-08, 11:07 PM
Until they have to take it back to the dealership and they get a Kia or maybe even an Aevo rental and get treated like they own a $500 Cavalier with 300k miles on it.

There's a reason V2 is cheaper...It's not the car's fault.

Yeah, customer service is still way behind. I remember when I was 20 and had an 83? 318i I think. They would give me a brand new loaner when I had my beater serviced.

gothicaleigh
05-17-08, 08:20 PM
Seeing as they are afraid to activate my account on the M5 board (if they've seen me on other boards, I can't really say that I blame them :p ), I'll respond to some of the comments here instead (maybe Sal or someone could pass these along):


I do also want comfort, luxury, ammenities, and build quality with my sport. The older CTS-V was a disappointment compared to the '02 M5. It looks like the new one is a big step in the right direction.

Re ammenities, its not just the power tilt wheel (with auto up & return).
The CTS has a power tilt and telescoping wheel with programmable driver and exit positions.


Does the CTS-V have great 20 way power seats, adjustable side bolsters, comfort access,
14 way power adjustable Recaros programmable with exit/entry positions plus pneumatic bolsters in the seat cushion and backrest.

4 window 1 touch down & up,
Yes.

heads up display,
Pop-up navigation.

fully integrated iPod interface including steering wheel control,
Yes. You can also trade data with the on-board hard drive.

headlights that swivel in curves,
Yes.

bluetooth hands free,
Yes.

programmable ventilation,
Yes.

real time traffic,
Yes.

voice commands,
Yes.

lane departure warning
Yes.

My 550i (and of course the M5) have all that and more. Every one of those features is useful and well worth having.
Sounds good, how about having these too?

-40GB HardDrive
-Pause, Record, and Play (TiVo-like functions for the radio)
-Magnetic Ride Control (a new version of the system shared with the Corvette ZR1; previous versions have been shared with Cadillac's STS and Ferrari)
-Ultraview Sunroof (almost full glass top) w/ power sunshade
-15" discs with 6 piston Brembos
-Performance Traction Management (launch control)
-Hand cut and stitched instrument panel, door trim and center console.

MIACTSV
05-17-08, 09:46 PM
Until they have to take it back to the dealership and they get a Kia or maybe even an Aevo rental and get treated like they own a $500 Cavalier with 300k miles on it.

There's a reason V2 is cheaper...It's not the car's fault.

I dont have any experience with Cadillac dealers yet but I can tell you that having owned 2 BMW's when I took them for service (which was often) I never got a BMW loaner I got a Honda civic if I was lucky and sometimes they had no loaner at all and this was even reserving it a few days in advance. (I know this varies from dealer to dealer but this was supposed to be a top rated dealer).

Also I see alot of mention about quality comparisons between Cadillac and BMW, Mercedes, etc... I can tell you that I was not impressed with the quality of the two bimmers I owned. And whoever designed the Power windows on BMW's should be shot! apparently they dident think people might want to open and close the windows occasionally.

I hope my experience with Caddy is better:D

Rich H
05-17-08, 10:14 PM
After looking at several post on the M5 board it looks like there is a healthy respect for the new gen V. You can never expect to convert the true Bimmer diehards but many of the others "on the fence" could easily be swayed to consider the 09. There isn't that much difference in quality anymore between the 2 so features and performance will likely be the deciding factor. However, I still think my 04 was a huge step forward for GM when it was released and proved they could compete with the Germans or anybody else.

RightTurn
05-17-08, 10:26 PM
We don't want to convert 'em; we want to blow their doors off. :lol:

JEM
05-17-08, 10:43 PM
Look, as far as I'm concerned there are so many good cars on the market that I'm not going to go bashing one or the other. The E60 M5 isn't to my taste but in the overall scheme of things it's still a very good car. I like (some) BMWs, I like (some) Cadillacs, hell, I could work up a good jones over a nice '72 Alfa Giulia Ti, a Datsun 510 or even a nice '65 Corvair. I thought the EV1 was one of only two compelling products US GM did in the '90s (the C5 'Vette being the other) and I've got an open mind about the Volt.

So let's save the bashing for Camrys, right? Thank you.

Don't care who it comes from, don't care what powers it, just as long as it's entertaining.

CIWS
05-18-08, 09:43 AM
Until they have to take it back to the dealership and they get a Kia or maybe even an Aevo rental and get treated like they own a $500 Cavalier with 300k miles on it.

There's a reason V2 is cheaper...It's not the car's fault.


Sounds like individual dealership issues. Every time I take my car in for service my dealership has a Cadillac loaner for me and treats me like a customer they want to keep. They certainly aren't perfect and have made some boo boos here and there. But to expect perfection from any place is unrealistic.

StealthV
05-20-08, 01:20 AM
In my nearly four years of V ownership and working with five Cadillac dealers over that period, they all sucked. 0 for 5 with Cadillac, 2 for 2 with BMW.

There's one little piece missing and I believe why a V can't command M5 money in the marketplace - Worldclass product is nothing without matching premium support after the sale. If the dealers were up to the level of the V itself, we'd all be figuring out how to scrounge at least $90k from the piggy banks.

It's time for Cadillac, along with the entire GM brand portfolio, to get tough with the dealer network and cull the herd. No more laser welding-40GB-Sapele wood sales training seminars, no more Trailblazer or Aveo loaners - Ack.

ďIn todayís luxury game, the question isnít whether or not your car has available features like a 40-gig hard drive. It isnít about sun roofs or Sapele wood accents, popup nav screens or any of that. No, the real question is: When your check engine light illuminates, does it turn you on?"

Zero for five - I'll go with no.

Cadillac, it's time to live up to expecations of being the World Standard or forever be kidnapped by K-Mart.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachments/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2009/39753d1203561452-09-cts-v-performance-rating-stealth_want2believe.jpg

JEM
05-20-08, 04:52 AM
It's time for Cadillac, along with the entire GM brand portfolio, to get tough with the dealer network and cull the herd. No more laser welding-40GB-Sapele wood sales training seminars, no more Trailblazer or Aveo loaners - Ack.


Y'know, to some extent I agree with your take on what's required, though the last new GM product purchased in my family was my parents' 1978 Caprice. And yeah, the dealer service sucked almost as badly as the build quality.

But...when it comes to the after-purchase customer service, my baseline expectation is competence. Things get fixed right the first time, other things don't get broken (and they especially don't get broken and not fixed), and expectations get set properly up front. That's rare enough that I have to regard the rest as gravy.

The five or so Ford dealers I've dealt with have all been utterly incompetent, can't-find-a-loose-steering-column-U-joint-pinch-bolt bad, my wife would likely drain the blood out of my body before she'd let me go near a Ford dealer.

I've dealt with one competent Saab dealer and one fraudulent one. The former was competent but not a lot of frills, no loaners or rides or fancy facilities etc (this was ten-plus years ago) and the latter (part of a multi-brand megadealership now long gone) was the past master of what Pat Bedard calls the wall job - park it over there by the wall, bill Saab for the warranty work, do nothing and tell the customer it's done. When customer comes back, bill Saab again, tell the customer more fibs and hope they never recognize that they're the ball in a crooked tennis match.

The dealer from whom we bought our '92 Q45 was so good that I had to check the restrooms for a staff of wipers. Things always fixed right the first time, and when it came to warranty service they were not remotely shy about spending Nissan's money, they always found and fixed the stuff I'd spotted but didn't think was worth complaining about. Car was always clean and shiny and vacuumed as thoroughly as Eliot Spitzer's dork. Always an Infiniti-branded loaner, though a slushbox G20 ain't got much on an Aveo (a 5-speed G20 briefly snuck into their loaner fleet, presumably off their trade-in lot, and that was a honey - for all three of us who'd ever take it.) So even though the car itself wasn't a whole lot more reliable than, say, a Ford, the ownership experience was not an active deterrent to future Infiniti ownership. The fact that we don't own an Infiniti or a Lexus now emphasizes that for me at least a great service experience can't overcome a distasteful product.

The local BMW dealer has been good. Things get done right, they've gotten the hard stuff done (like the intermittent AC whistle in my M5 detectable only at freeway speeds that took a week and a half of progressive dismantling of the dash and AC ducting to locate) without grumbling, but it's not a kid-glove-and-red-carpet experience. They've usually coughed up a loaner or rental when needed, everything from the usual 3-series to a Prius to a Chevy S-10 to a horrid Buick to a Dodge minivan, and they've got a good shuttle service. It also helps that the Bimmer dealer happens to be about the closest car dealer to my house.

Now, as for Audi, our used '02 S6 Avant just exited its certified preowned coverage, but the local dealer it went to for a number of matters while under 'warranty' didn't smell Ford-bad but didn't give me much warm-and-fuzzy either. Too much "we can't do anything about that", too much screwing up B while fixing A, too much downtime while ordering parts, nothing ever comes out cleaner than it goes in. Only A8 customers get loaners, though their shuttle service wasn't bad.

So, yeah, it'd be nice to see Cadillac dealers who saw serious levels of customer support as important, but baseline is things need to get fixed and stay fixed, in a reasonable timeframe and without a lot of service-writer excuses, not three comebacks and a visit from the local field guy to approve a $250 part as was the Ford norm.

CIWS
05-20-08, 08:57 AM
In my nearly four years of V ownership and working with five Cadillac dealers over that period, they all sucked. 0 for 5 with Cadillac, 2 for 2 with BMW.

I hear good and bad from other folks I know who drive Cadis, MB, BMUU, Lexus, and Lincoln. Two different people have had two different experiences from the same dealerships. So I've learned to filter through individuals and listen to what the majority of comments are about a particular brand and local dealership. My guess would be if the only Cadillac dealership you ever dealt with was Lindsay, you would have a more favorable opinion. But again we understand Lindsay is an exception in the world of Cadi dealerships and not the standard. Unless we want to count it as the standard others should be judged by and follow in the area of Service.

I do not argue that there are several dealerships out there that need to be dealt with by GM and made to either step up or have their car shipments halted and put out of business. But that's up to the dissatisfied customer to report to Cadillac/GM to keep them aware, and in truth most people don't. They take the surveys and toss them in the trash and/or cool off in a day or two after the fact and simply find another dealership or end up purchasing a different brand.

Around here the brand and dealerships that get the most repeat good reports isn't Cadillac, BMUU, or MB. It's the Lexus dealerships.

chris1268
05-20-08, 10:33 AM
Around here the brand and dealerships that get the most repeat good reports isn't Cadillac, BMUU, or MB. It's the Lexus dealerships.[/QUOTE]


I all of a sudden feel much luckier to have the dealership I do. I have bought two Cadillac's in the last 4 years from them adn recieved excellent service and customer service from them from the get go. If ever in the Chicagoland area I would recommend Naperville Cadillac.

JEM
05-20-08, 11:25 AM
Around here the brand and dealerships that get the most repeat good reports isn't Cadillac, BMUU, or MB. It's the Lexus dealerships.

Oh yeah. You put two Lexus owners together and do they talk about the car? Oh, hell no. They could give a rat's ass about that. They're comparing the quality of the coffee at their dealers' service departments, or which one has the shinier granite on the floor, or whose loaner had better seat warmers.

I've observed that conversation more than once.

RightTurn
05-20-08, 01:24 PM
Clear Lake Lexus has excellent capucinno. :thumbsup:


:lol:

CIWS
05-20-08, 02:27 PM
Oh yeah. You put two Lexus owners together and do they talk about the car? Oh, hell no. They could give a rat's ass about that. They're comparing the quality of the coffee at their dealers' service departments, or which one has the shinier granite on the floor, or whose loaner had better seat warmers.

I've observed that conversation more than once.

Maybe where you are. We have two Lexus owners here at work, both take their cars down the street to Sewell Lexus and what they talk about when referencing their service visits are how they are treated, that they are given a Lexus loaner (usually an IS) each time and their satisfaction with the visit.

Interestingly these seem to be similar items that I tend to note when I take my V in. How I am treated, that they have a Cadi loaner for me each time, and how satisfied I am with the service visit.

The problem here is not all dealerships, of any make of car, are the same in all parts of the country. It varies, some are great, some are good, and some down right suck. The local MB dealership right next door to the Lexus has a bad reputation for running out of loaner cars very quickly and then if you need service you're SOL unless you can find someone to give you a ride.

jasaero
05-20-08, 06:59 PM
Maybe where you are. We have two Lexus owners here at work, both take their cars down the street to Sewell Lexus and what they talk about when referencing their service visits are how they are treated, that they are given a Lexus loaner (usually an IS) each time and their satisfaction with the visit.

Interestingly these seem to be similar items that I tend to note when I take my V in. How I am treated, that they have a Cadi loaner for me each time, and how satisfied I am with the service visit.

The problem here is not all dealerships, of any make of car, are the same in all parts of the country. It varies, some are great, some are good, and some down right suck. The local MB dealership right next door to the Lexus has a bad reputation for running out of loaner cars very quickly and then if you need service you're SOL unless you can find someone to give you a ride.

Wonder if the MB dealer has a problem because of the number of loaners they keep on hand or the number of cars they have in for service at any given time?? ;)

JEM
05-20-08, 08:38 PM
Maybe where you are. We have two Lexus owners here at work, both take their cars down the street to Sewell Lexus and what they talk about when referencing their service visits are how they are treated, that they are given a Lexus loaner (usually an IS) each time and their satisfaction with the visit.


Exactly my point. Nothing to do with the car.

CIWS
05-21-08, 02:34 PM
Exactly my point. Nothing to do with the car.

What is it you feel they should be considering from their service visits ?

JEM
05-21-08, 05:24 PM
What is it you feel they should be considering from their service visits ?

The point is that when you put two BMW owners together, the odds are at least fair that you'll get a conversation about whether PS2s are really enough better than GS-D3s or RE050s to justify the money, or something like that.

You put two Lexus owners together, they'll talk dealer service, because there's nothing about the car that matters that much.

CIWS
05-21-08, 05:33 PM
The point is that when you put two BMW owners together, the odds are at least fair that you'll get a conversation about whether PS2s are really enough better than GS-D3s or RE050s to justify the money, or something like that.

You put two Lexus owners together, they'll talk dealer service, because there's nothing about the car that matters that much.

Two BMUU owners who are male and car enthusiasts perhaps. This area is full of BMUU owners and most don't know a thing about cars other than driving them. They purchase and drive them because they believe it provides them some kind of status in an area that most folks are driving Lexus, MB, Audi, Cadillac, Jags, and Bentleys.

Up to this point Lexus has never offered a performance vehicle to draw that kind of customer. That will begin to change this year.

JEM
05-21-08, 08:39 PM
Up to this point Lexus has never offered a performance vehicle to draw that kind of customer. That will begin to change this year.

True, to a point, but the IS-F is fugly as all hell. Fugly as the first-gen non-V CTS (the V gets brownie points for simpler trim and wheels that make the beltline look less stepladder-high.) The ricer fenders and the lumpy hood to make the V8 fit just look like ass.

The Tony Show
05-21-08, 11:16 PM
http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii137/the_tonyshow/m3.jpg

:rolleyes:

And your point is?

Rich H
05-21-08, 11:19 PM
True, to a point, but the IS-F is fugly as all hell. Fugly as the first-gen non-V CTS (the V gets brownie points for simpler trim and wheels that make the beltline look less stepladder-high.) The ricer fenders and the lumpy hood to make the V8 fit just look like ass.

He did say PERFORMANCE vehicle drawing the customer. Remember, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. In fact, I'll bet a fair share of the currrent V owners on this forum like the exterior looks of the Gen 1 V better than the Gen 2 - me included. My 04 side profile, that has the sharp line that flows from the front headlight to the rear taillight (what you call a belt line), gives more design continuity than the new V version IMHO. Yes, the original car is a little narrow but it sure doesn't hurt the car's handling or weight. And the old V is DEFINITELY an American original style. Comparing it to the new "Bangle-ized" BMW styling some might question why BMW bothered to change it. I preferred the E39 over the E60 M5 styling - and almost bought one until I test drove my V.

But back to point of this thread - performance comparisons and ring time. Anyone else placing bets that the M5 can't better 8 minutes on the M5 board?

Lord Cadillac
05-22-08, 01:54 AM
But back to point of this thread - performance comparisons and ring time. Anyone else placing bets that the M5 can't better 8 minutes on the M5 board?

No. They all know better. It's not happening until the NEXT M5.. Instead, they want to ask me to bet them that someone they know CAN'T get the CTS-V to run the ring in under 8 minutes. Gee, I doubt I could do it. So what's that supposed to mean?

JEM
05-22-08, 02:36 AM
:rolleyes:

And your point is?

That M3 is a pretty good looking vehicle, an excellent basic shape, the 'flame' crap is tamed compared to previous Bangle-era Bimmers and that nose is certainly better than the E60 M5. A little bulge on the hood...if I recall the new V's got something a bit bigger (and if you want to see truly tacky, look at what Ford Australia did to get the 5.4 mod motor into the Falcon.)

The IS-F has the whole nose of the car swollen up to take the Lexus motor.

There's really two categories of recent BMW - the ones (E36, E39, E90, and the Z3) that Joji Nagashima designed, and everything else. The worst of the Nagashima designs is better than the best (well, aside from maybe the Z8) of the rest.

lawfive
05-22-08, 03:19 AM
E46 M3 = yummy looking

E90 M3 = :vomit:

JEM
05-22-08, 04:10 AM
E46 M3 = yummy looking

E90 M3 = :vomit:

Nope, other way 'round for me.

The E46 3-series in general never appealed to me, too many creases and lines. The E36 was a lot better-looking.

The E90/E92 3-series is a great shape between the end-caps, but the nose (in particular) is full of slashes and gouges that doesn't belong there. Hood lump aside, the M3 detailing is cleaner than the rest of the E90/E92s.

BMW's figuring it out little by little - the update last year cleaned up a lot of the crappy exterior detailing of the E60 5-series, their shapes are getting cleaner again though some like the 6-series coupe are beyond saving by any means short of the complete destruction of the stamping dies.

b4z
05-22-08, 08:12 AM
I think most of the M's look great.
The current gen is a great looking car as both a sedan and couple because it has less "stuff" on the surfaces to mess up it's form.
if you want to see a car that has too many unecessary vents and things, the Ferrari 599 is a good example.
it's basic shape is beautiful.

CIWS
05-22-08, 08:52 AM
True, to a point, but the IS-F is fugly as all hell. Fugly as the first-gen non-V CTS (the V gets brownie points for simpler trim and wheels that make the beltline look less stepladder-high.) The ricer fenders and the lumpy hood to make the V8 fit just look like ass.


He did say PERFORMANCE vehicle drawing the customer. Remember, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

:yeah:


Although I don't care for the large nose on the car, the fake exhaust tips is what gets me to laugh. Just seems a cheap touch to a car not so cheap. However an IS-F will be smoking stock and slightly modded Gen 1 CTS-Vs. So you can tell the owner his car is ugly, but they'll just laugh at the folks they're leaving behind.

gophaster
05-22-08, 12:19 PM
The M3 is my back up if the v does not become a reality for me. Either because the base price is too high or I can't get one within the time frame that I need it in.

I actually LOVE the new M3 (more importantly so does the wife)...but I prefer the sedan variety...

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg104/igophaster/Bimmer/111620070451047398.jpg

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg104/igophaster/Bimmer/sedans_that_sizzle_139_gallery_imag.jpg

Lord Cadillac
05-22-08, 03:14 PM
:yeah:


Although I don't care for the large nose on the car, the fake exhaust tips is what gets me to laugh. Just seems a cheap touch to a car not so cheap. However an IS-F will be smoking stock and slightly modded Gen 1 CTS-Vs. So you can tell the owner his car is ugly, but they'll just laugh at the folks they're leaving behind.
The fake exhaust tips are functional.

Even the IS350 is keeping up with C6 Corvettes with very light modifications. Up to about 80mph, anyway.

The Tony Show
05-22-08, 03:39 PM
If all I wanted was fast, I'd buy an Ariel Atom 2. I find the Cadillac styling attractive, not to mention the interior amenities and value in its segment.

Silverspeed
05-22-08, 04:49 PM
Even the IS350 is keeping up with C6 Corvettes with very light modifications. Up to about 80mph, anyway.

And who told you this? Having had serveral encounters with IS350's and owning a C6 myself, this is not accurate. Your definition of "very light modifications" must be way different than mine.

An is350 traps at about 100mph stock. That = a severe a$$ kicking by a C6. They are mid to lhigh 5 second 0-60 which also= severe a$$ kicking by a C6. What kind of "very light modifications" are you talking about?

Silver -V-
05-22-08, 05:58 PM
Direct from the Car and Driver road test on an'08 Lexus IS F - "For its first F (there’ll be more, rest assured) Lexus presents a V-8 sledgehammer that hurls to 60 mph in 4.2 seconds—fleeter by 0.1 second than an ’08 M3 coupe [December 2007]—is still straining the reins at its 172-mph speed governor, stops from 70 mph in 159 feet, and generates 0.92 g on the skidpad. "

The 2008 C6 they tested in September - "The new Vette runs from 0 to 60 mph in 4.0 seconds and clears the quarter-mile in 12.4 seconds at 116 mph. "

That sure looks like the Lexus IS F will give the Corvette a run for it's money, but the 6 banger won't be in the same schoolyard even with a few mods.

CIWS
05-22-08, 06:23 PM
The fake exhaust tips are functional.


Functional as window dressing ? :D






http://www.ciws.net/autoshow/isf2.jpg

Lord Cadillac
05-22-08, 08:02 PM
Functional as window dressing ? :D






http://www.ciws.net/autoshow/isf2.jpg
PM me and I'll explain it there, later.. Gotta run for now..

Lord Cadillac
05-22-08, 08:03 PM
And who told you this? Having had serveral encounters with IS350's and owning a C6 myself, this is not accurate. Your definition of "very light modifications" must be way different than mine.

An is350 traps at about 100mph stock. That = a severe a$$ kicking by a C6. They are mid to lhigh 5 second 0-60 which also= severe a$$ kicking by a C6. What kind of "very light modifications" are you talking about?
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=2031706

Silverspeed
05-22-08, 09:38 PM
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=2031706


Did you read the thread? It references a thread on a lexus board where a guy said his is350 kept up with a C5. There was another person in a thread that said he kept up with a C6. Every person on that board(corvette board) called BS. IS-F, yes it could keep up. Still loose, but keep up. IS350 will get smoked.....period. C6's average trap is between 112 and 115. IS350 is around 100. If you have ever raced and seen the difference in car lengths in two cars that trap 10 to 15mph different, then you would know that is a sound beating.

Silverspeed
05-22-08, 09:41 PM
That sure looks like the Lexus IS F will give the Corvette a run for it's money, but the 6 banger won't be in the same schoolyard even with a few mods.

I agree completely. An IS-F is a very fast car. IS350 is not in the same league. Not even close

JEM
05-23-08, 02:44 AM
I agree completely. An IS-F is a very fast car. IS350 is not in the same league. Not even close

The IS350 is quite quick for what it is, that's a very nice engine. And it will pull plenty of sideways g. But it's not really sporting hardware, the chassis setup is okay but the seats are awful.

They've got this interesting seatbelt pretensioner that's supposed to snug the belts when it thinks you're about to hit something, but in my limited exposure to the car it would go off with a big ratcheting noise every time you braked fairly hard. Now, it'd be a great feature if there were a button that allowed you to manually snug the belts and keep them there, but as it is it'd be a hellish thing to try to drive quickly somewhere.

Lord Cadillac
05-23-08, 10:04 AM
I agree completely. An IS-F is a very fast car. IS350 is not in the same league. Not even close
I'm not sure what the C6 is getting 0-60 or the 1/4 mile - but I thought they were about 4.5 seconds to 60. If the IS350's best time (that I know of) is 5.0, than that's not really all that far behind. I can see where in a street race, for various reasons, the two could be considered close... Especially if the IS350 is lightly modified.

Regardless, it's pretty impressive (to me). Until the new CTS-V is on the streets, the regular IS350 (not IS-F) will be a close race for our Vs. The CTS-V, STS-V and XLR-V all range within the high 4 second range.. 5.0, stock, isn't that far away...

JEM
05-23-08, 02:33 PM
I'm not sure what the C6 is getting 0-60 or the 1/4 mile - but I thought they were about 4.5 seconds to 60. If the IS350's best time (that I know of) is 5.0, than that's not really all that far behind. I can see where in a street race, for various reasons, the two could be considered close... Especially if the IS350 is lightly modified.

Regardless, it's pretty impressive (to me). Until the new CTS-V is on the streets, the regular IS350 (not IS-F) will be a close race for our Vs. The CTS-V, STS-V and XLR-V all range within the high 4 second range.. 5.0, stock, isn't that far away...

Half a second 0-60 is a huge difference.

But 0-60 is a measure of low-speed drive-wheel traction anyway, not engine or vehicle performance.

Most high-HP 2WD vehicles are traction-limited off the line, and when you get past 300HP or so with any sort of reasonable torque curve they're severely traction-limited. That was always the funny part about the blower V8 AMG Benzes - the heavier cars are quicker at low speeds, for one the E55 wagon is quicker than the E55 sedan, because of the extra weight on the rear wheels.

0-120 or 0-150 (or distance covered in getting to 120 or 150) is a good measure of overall performance - 'launchability', engine flexibility and drivetrain gearing and gear spacing, aerodynamics, etc.

gophaster
05-23-08, 02:58 PM
0-120 or 0-150 (or distance covered in getting to 120 or 150) is a good measure of overall performance - 'launchability', engine flexibility and drivetrain gearing and gear spacing, aerodynamics, etc.

Yup...0-150 times below from Car and Driver:

IS-F - 24.7 seconds (416hp/371tq)
M3 - 24.3 seconds (414hp/295tq)
M5 - 23.4 seconds
E63 - 23.3 seconds
C63 - 22.8 seconds (451hp/443tq)

JEM
05-23-08, 04:15 PM
Yup...0-150 times below from Car and Driver:

IS-F - 24.7 seconds (416hp/371tq)
M3 - 24.3 seconds (414hp/295tq)
M5 - 23.4 seconds
E63 - 23.3 seconds
C63 - 22.8 seconds (451hp/443tq)

Ah yes, Mercedes and their market-engineered AMG HP numbers, my bet is that you put the '451HP' C63 and the '507HP' (or whatever it is) E63 on a dyno you'll see awfully similar numbers.

I don't think we'll see the CTS-V get under 20 seconds 0-150 but someone could certainly have fun trying :p

gophaster
05-23-08, 05:55 PM
You are probably right. I thought they had gotten the C63's motor straight from the E63, no? Under rating taken to a new low ;)


Ah yes, Mercedes and their market-engineered AMG HP numbers, my bet is that you put the '451HP' C63 and the '507HP' (or whatever it is) E63 on a dyno you'll see awfully similar numbers.

I don't think we'll see the CTS-V get under 20 seconds 0-150 but someone could certainly have fun trying :p