: turbo charging a Northstar



Steeltag
05-14-08, 01:06 AM
Crazy idea coming......what do you think about adding an STS ( Squire Turbo Systems) rear mounted system ( single or twin turbo) to a Deville or Seville? I mean, by way of reliability....or tranny handling the rise in torque/hp? I"ve been reading up and speaking to a installer about these systems...impressive for the money. While researching it , I found a video or two on youtube of someone who has done it. Man, it scoots!!!

So, yea or nay, is it a bad idea, know anyone who's done it already with results???

CadillacSTS42005
05-14-08, 01:09 AM
been done
13k invested
his handle is Mark99STS

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Lord Cadillac
05-14-08, 01:19 AM
12.52?! He must have a lot more done than that STS turbo system.. No?

CadillacSTS42005
05-14-08, 01:36 AM
Yank 3800 Stall
Custom LSD
Pushin 13? Turbo
Drag Radials
Port/Polish/Honed Heads

CadillacSTS42005
05-14-08, 01:42 AM
Oh
and I believe he actually has it CARBED now with a Holly system?
AJ mentioned that to me

Steeltag
05-14-08, 02:32 AM
What's 'LSD' stand for? never heard of that on a car.

Submariner409
05-14-08, 12:37 PM
Limited Slip Differential, which daily driver FWD Cadillacs HATE. You'll need to own stock in a transmission repair company.

As far as the turbo setup for anything other than a track car, forget it. There's just tons of stuff written about it in here a year and a half ago. Go back in time and read.......

CadillacSTS42005
05-14-08, 07:35 PM
why would the tranny hate it?
its a common mod among SHO boys
i see no issue it would likely take strain off of the t/c system if anything

misfit6794
05-14-08, 09:34 PM
I'm about 95% sure the neon srt-4 also has a limited slip, not an automatic trans though.

91parkave
05-15-08, 02:30 AM
I never seen any tranny that won tlike a lsd, problem is with most people is that they fail to realize that LSD's have a break in period. But back to the subject at hand id be all for the turbo idea, But in the real world a turbo v8 FWD will need alot of suspension work as well on this platform to be durable, If it were up to me id build a 450WHP N/A Northstar and easily run 11's maybe lower.

fubar569
05-15-08, 07:52 AM
I never seen any tranny that won tlike a lsd, problem is with most people is that they fail to realize that LSD's have a break in period. But back to the subject at hand id be all for the turbo idea, But in the real world a turbo v8 FWD will need alot of suspension work as well on this platform to be durable, If it were up to me id build a 450WHP N/A Northstar and easily run 11's maybe lower.

:suspect: :suspect: :alchi: :alchi: :alchi: :alchi: :alchi: :alchi: x eleventybillionandone

Submariner409
05-15-08, 11:21 AM
:horse:ol' 91ParkAve is dreaming..........the pipe dream N/A monster FWD Seville/Deville Northstar does not yet exist and probably never will..............and one mechanical reason FWD (in this case, 4T80E) transmissions do not take kindly to LSD work is the inconvenient fact that the wheels are also the steering wheels, so the tire rolling speed and turning radius is constantly changing, particularly at low speeds and parking lot type maneuvers, so the LSD spring/clutch pack is constantly being made to slip due to the different axle speeds. AJ alludes to the problem when he posted the pic of the machined locker kit in another thread. Don't get me wrong: There are FWD limited slip units. But there hasn't been much success with the Seville/Deville transmission units. (If the units were bulletproof there would be no need for torque control to limit wheelspin)

eldorado1
05-15-08, 01:39 PM
You might hit 450hp naturally aspirated, but 450WHP is like 600 crank. You're not going to double the engine's horsepower with anything less than boost.

dkozloski
05-15-08, 02:12 PM
:horse:ol' 91ParkAve is dreaming..........the pipe dream N/A monster FWD Seville/Deville Northstar does not yet exist and probably never will..............and one mechanical reason FWD (in this case, 4T80E) transmissions do not take kindly to LSD work is the inconvenient fact that the wheels are also the steering wheels, so the tire rolling speed and turning radius is constantly changing, particularly at low speeds and parking lot type maneuvers, so the LSD spring/clutch pack is constantly being made to slip due to the different axle speeds. AJ alludes to the problem when he posted the pic of the machined locker kit in another thread. Don't get me wrong: There are FWD limited slip units. But there hasn't been much success with the Seville/Deville transmission units. (If the units were bulletproof there would be no need for torque control to limit wheelspin)
The next issue you'd have with LSD is torque steer. The car would try to whip the wheel out of your hands and head off towards Jones's everytime you nailed the footfeed. The car would steer like you're driving on the trolley tracks.

91parkave
05-15-08, 03:15 PM
The next issue you'd have with LSD is torque steer. The car would try to whip the wheel out of your hands and head off towards Jones's everytime you nailed the footfeed. The car would steer like you're driving on the trolley tracks.

You are a idiot if you Try to hit WOT in a FWD Car with the wheels turned anyway. However Tourqe steer is not as present in These cars because we were blessed with equal length drive shafts.


You might hit 450hp naturally aspirated, but 450WHP is like 600 crank. You're not going to double the engine's horsepower with anything less than boost.

B.S, question is how to go about it.


:horse:ol' 91ParkAve is dreaming..........the pipe dream N/A monster FWD Seville/Deville Northstar does not yet exist and probably never will..............and one mechanical reason FWD (in this case, 4T80E) transmissions do not take kindly to LSD work is the inconvenient fact that the wheels are also the steering wheels, so the tire rolling speed and turning radius is constantly changing, particularly at low speeds and parking lot type maneuvers, so the LSD spring/clutch pack is constantly being made to slip due to the different axle speeds. AJ alludes to the problem when he posted the pic of the machined locker kit in another thread. Don't get me wrong: There are FWD limited slip units. But there hasn't been much success with the Seville/Deville transmission units. (If the units were bulletproof there would be no need for torque control to limit wheelspin) I can agree with you on that, However there are many diffrent types of l.s.d's i wouldnt dare use a clutch type lsd on these cars, a gear type would be ideal IMO, But i have no actual experience in a cadillac with a lsd so........


:suspect: :suspect: :alchi: :alchi: :alchi: :alchi: :alchi: :alchi: x eleventybillionandone

i guees people would say the same about a turbo FWD cad huh?, maybe a performance exhaust on a cadillac? Dont knock what you havent seen or what hasnt been done before.

Submariner409
05-15-08, 03:34 PM
Axle lengths have absolutely nothing to do with torque steer effect: The effect is caused by one wheel generating more traction than the other, causing a noticeable steering wheel pull left or right. It is very pronounced in FWD setups because, as I stated before, the drive wheels are also the steering wheels. (If you want to get really picky, it's not purely torque steer, it's "unequal power delivery to the pavement" steer.) Classic torque steer occurs only in RWD longitudinally mounted engines as the engine tends to twist the body in the direction opposite engine rotation, loading the off-side drive wheel and driving the car off a straight line. One classic trick, even with Positraction, was to load the rear springs unequally with Air Lift bags with 2 fill lines run to the rear bumper area, thus maintaining equal traction under acceleration load.

A significant amount of wheelspin and torque steer can be eliminated by going back to suspension and driveline basics: With a bit of experimentation the driving tire pressures and suspension preload can be unequally juggled to give each wheel the same power delivery to the pavement.

Engine torque in a Northstar tends to make the rear squat and simultaneously lifts the front end, unloading the tires. The fix would be to create a control which would allow you to fool the rear height control and jack the struts up solid in the rear. Less rear squat equates to more tire on the pavement in front.

Highline Cady
05-15-08, 05:01 PM
Hey sub, AJ and I have been playing around with the last idea you stated in your last post. You can jack up or inflate the rear suspension by pushing the sensor up by the rear wheel and then pull the fuse to the system which is by the battery under the back seat. It is an idea that we will use next time we are at the track, it does hold the pressure until you put the fuse back in, so your Cady drives like a Cady on the way home from the track.

Anyway, just thought I'd pass it on. I'll take pics next time we're at the track.:thumbsup:

eldorado1
05-15-08, 06:39 PM
B.S, question is how to go about it.


Well... the Vin 9 makes 300hp @ 6000rpm. To double the horsepower, it would have to rev to 12,000 rpm, PLUS make the same amount of torque. With enough money, 12krpm wouldn't be a problem, but the torque is what's going to kill you. The heads just won't flow that much, even if you carved them up.

fubar569
05-16-08, 03:50 AM
Dont knock what you havent seen or what hasnt been done before.

MARK99STS went turbo...it cost him well north of 10k to do it right. most parts are entirely custom fabbed. do you have that kind of coin? if not, quit dreaming...if you want to go fast for cheap you picked the WRONG PLATFORM!

and don't knock what hasnt been done before? do you even know what myself and others here have done? combined, we've tried CAI/RAI, modified stock, bored TB, hacked intake manifolds, extrude honed exhaust manifolds, made custom exhausts, different FPR's, different injectors, NOS/blower/Turbo, etc...we HAVE tried nearly EVERYTHING and we KNOW what TO DO and what NOT TO DO, what IS POSSIBLE and what PIPE DREAMS are...

you my friend...are full of pipe dreams...

91parkave
05-16-08, 11:03 AM
Hey sub, AJ and I have been playing around with the last idea you stated in your last post. You can jack up or inflate the rear suspension by pushing the sensor up by the rear wheel and then pull the fuse to the system which is by the battery under the back seat. It is an idea that we will use next time we are at the track, it does hold the pressure until you put the fuse back in, so your Cady drives like a Cady on the way home from the track.

Anyway, just thought I'd pass it on. I'll take pics next time we're at the track.:thumbsup:

Or hook up a switch to the air compressor itself IIRC, The green wire, That way you can fill youre struts to max capacity, for the track. the spring blockers also help but most arent willing to take them in and out.


Well... the Vin 9 makes 300hp @ 6000rpm. To double the horsepower, it would have to rev to 12,000 rpm, PLUS make the same amount of torque. With enough money, 12krpm wouldn't be a problem, but the torque is what's going to kill you. The heads just won't flow that much, even if you carved them up.

got any flow numbers to prove that statement? And to double horsepower, is alot more complex than revving to twice the amount.


MARK99STS went turbo...it cost him well north of 10k to do it right. most parts are entirely custom fabbed. do you have that kind of coin? if not, quit dreaming...if you want to go fast for cheap you picked the WRONG PLATFORM!

It cost 10k lol, well i have my own welder and tools, to make that happen, So that kind of coin isnt needed for someone like me, If anything the only things i would spend on is the turbo, intercooler, Mega squirt engine managment, fuel pump, If i was doing a turbo build. Funny thing is though price was never part of the equation, maybe you misunderstood, Im sure dreaming is why the turbo got on mark's sts caddi in the first place, so like i said quit bashing shit you havent seen done.



and don't knock what hasnt been done before? do you even know what myself and others here have done? combined, we've tried CAI/RAI, modified stock, bored TB, hacked intake manifolds, extrude honed exhaust manifolds, made custom exhausts, different FPR's, different injectors, NOS/blower/Turbo, etc...we HAVE tried nearly EVERYTHING and we KNOW what TO DO and what NOT TO DO, what IS POSSIBLE and what PIPE DREAMS are...

you my friend...are full of pipe dreams...

lol whats a modified stock? And extrude hone Exaust manifolds? what a waste, Barley anything you mentioned is worth any kind of real gain, I see no mention of cams, Head work, Valve work,milling heads, pistons, etc.... or anything worth some real power, So why do you keep acting like you know what these engines are capable of when all you talk about is bolt on shit?

eldorado1
05-16-08, 11:28 AM
got any flow numbers to prove that statement? And to double horsepower, is alot more complex than revving to twice the amount.

I do.


Flow in cfm at 28"
Lift Stock 4.6L Mod 4.6L
Int Exh Int Exh
.050 39.2 28.8 40 29.2
.100 81.1 67 83.5 59.2
.150 121.8 98.4 123.7 92.3
.200 157 122.9 159.5 120.9
.250 186.4 133.9 190.5 137.5
.300 208.5 141 218 150.2
.350 218.3 146.2 239.4 159.9
.400 218.9 150 255.5 176.3
.450 222.4 152.8 265.7 182.6
.500 225.2 154.8 273.2 187.2

This improvement comes by taking 0.1" off from all around the ports. The stock intake manifold can't be used anymore after this. Notice that at 0.500" lift, there is only a 25% gain over stock at 0.35". That will get you to 375hp with 0.500" lift cams.

http://images.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/articles/cadillac/0505em_cadillac_16_z.jpg

Submariner409
05-16-08, 11:33 AM
This is turning into a "He said, She said" contest.

91parkave obviously knows far more about Northstars than all of us put together, so stop replying to his posts and let him live in the dark.

(and when he gets finished with head milling maybe he'll come back and talk about valve interference and quench volume height)

Submariner409
05-16-08, 12:29 PM
As an aside, it looks as if ol' Steeltag had his thread hijacked, but now he knows that no one in here has an opinion.......sorry, man. We're only human....

fubar569
05-16-08, 02:33 PM
So why do you keep acting like you know what these engines are capable of when all you talk about is bolt on shit?

forget it...your ignorance is totally astounding...

you sound like you know how to build a tree-fiddy chebby and not much else...

the N* is a different ball of wax all together...but in your all knowing all mighty power you probably already knew that...

CadillacSTS42005
05-16-08, 02:51 PM
all i know
is Mark does drive his car and he also stated he had no issues at all with his custom fabbed LSD

91parkave
05-16-08, 04:09 PM
I do.


Flow in cfm at 28"
Lift Stock 4.6L Mod 4.6L
Int Exh Int Exh
.050 39.2 28.8 40 29.2
.100 81.1 67 83.5 59.2
.150 121.8 98.4 123.7 92.3
.200 157 122.9 159.5 120.9
.250 186.4 133.9 190.5 137.5
.300 208.5 141 218 150.2
.350 218.3 146.2 239.4 159.9
.400 218.9 150 255.5 176.3
.450 222.4 152.8 265.7 182.6
.500 225.2 154.8 273.2 187.2

This improvement comes by taking 0.1" off from all around the ports. The stock intake manifold can't be used anymore after this. Notice that at 0.500" lift, there is only a 25% gain over stock at 0.35". That will get you to 375hp with 0.500" lift cams.

Which Head Porting stage from CHRC are you reffering to? They offer more than one.


This is turning into a "He said, She said" contest.

91parkave obviously knows far more about Northstars than all of us put together, so stop replying to his posts and let him live in the dark.

(and when he gets finished with head milling maybe he'll come back and talk about valve interference and quench volume height)

If thats the way i come off, Then i do apologize, Remember i was flamed for saying "i would like to have a 450WHP N/A caddi" Some members took that to the next level and then some. Going upon the List fubar gave out of engine "enhancing mods", If you were to then read my reply thouroughly you would understand why i said that.


As an aside, it looks as if ol' Steeltag had his thread hijacked, but now he knows that no one in here has an opinion.......sorry, man. We're only human....

I never intended for everyone to get on one comment i made, but in the spirit of the thread it was off-topic, I apologize for that, But not for the replies to some of the members on this forum.


forget it...your ignorance is totally astounding...

you sound like you know how to build a tree-fiddy chebby and not much else...

the N* is a different ball of wax all together...but in your all knowing all mighty power you probably already knew that...

the northstar even while being a DOHC v8 has the same basic principles as any other engine when it comes to enhancing performance, In that respect my friend you are the ignorant one, for thinking that in the first place shows where you are coming from.

eldorado1
05-16-08, 04:50 PM
As an aside, it looks as if ol' Steeltag had his thread hijacked, but now he knows that no one in here has an opinion.......sorry, man. We're only human....

There's only one person who can answer his questions about a turbocharger, and that's Mark, and he doesn't come by here often.

I'm just glad for once we have a performance discussion rather than a maintenance question. I'm going to milk this for all it's worth!


Which Head Porting stage from CHRC are you reffering to? They offer more than one.

It doesn't matter. If you notice, there are no 400+CFM numbers there. Those are the kind of flow numbers you would need for 600 hp naturally aspirated. Its not going to happen unless you have $20k to drop on new cylinder heads.

Boost is the only way to get there.

stbtt
05-16-08, 05:31 PM
I know this might start something but oh well. I have put on a few superchargers on lt1, lsx motors if one was available for the northstar like was made a long time ago from the SC project, I think it can work. I think if you set up the intake system the same way they do for the lt1 with a blow off valve venting back in to the intake behind the maf (the maf would be on the intake side of the SC) use a fmu that increases fuel pressure under boost and put in a fuel pump it should work. pretty much the same parts that are in the lt1 kits. I know that we cant tune at this time but the lt1 kits can run pretty good without tuning, run even better with tuning but the base kit for lt1 don't come with programing.

Highline Cady
05-16-08, 08:43 PM
Shelby supercharged their Series 1. So a "northstar" has been supercharged. Where the problem really arises, is in the PCM, if we're talking Cadies. Unless you go Stand Alone, you will never get the factory PCM to work. At least not now. There are NO aftermarket kits for TC/SC. They don't exist. So unless you are going to do everything custom, which by the way = big $$$$$$ spent, you're not going to get that type of HP.

Anything is possible, with time and disposable income. But the N* has been around since 93 and no aftermarket company has marketed SC/TC. Why? Because there isn't any money in it for them. That's the simple answer. If something was offered there would be allot of customers on this forum, who would have it. But for twenty plus thousand, just go buy a muscle car, and when that is in the shop drive the Cady.

Don't get me wrong, I throw away $$ for a tenth here and a tenth there, on my Cady but everything I've done on mine is relatively inexpensive. If I want to go fast, I mean really fast it's time for the Vette. I love the idea of a hot rod cady as much as the next guy, but aftermarket TC/SC are not the answer. I personally like nitrous on these cars for relatively "cheap" horsepower and waxing a mustang from time to time. I hope you do have your 600 hp n.a. SC or TC Cady, but I suspect you'll give up on that idea long before you even get into it, you'd be better off converting a FWD Cady into a RWD LS1/LS2/LS6 setup, but you don't see that done that much either, why, because it also is a very expensive project to under take.

Just my 2 cents

91parkave
05-16-08, 10:00 PM
Or Better yet using the LS4 and tranny, That way you could have room for longtube type headers without hacking the shit out of everything else