: AWD -- Do you want it - Yes or No?



StealthV
04-30-08, 01:04 PM
Rhode Island is neither a road nor an island - Discuss. :duck:

gothicaleigh
04-30-08, 01:21 PM
I live in Michigan, and still would not want AWD on a V.

A quicker standing start and ease of use in the wet do not make up for the weight, loss of lateral traction (understeer), and additional mechanical drag that come along with AWD.


Rhode Island is neither a road nor an island - Discuss. :duck:

Troublemaker. http://www.8thdaycreations.com/images/gothicaleigh/gothiraspberry.gif

RightTurn
04-30-08, 02:28 PM
Houston. Nope.


RWD FTW!

Albertan
04-30-08, 03:25 PM
Stealth
So do you get to claim the cost of taking the ferry over to Rhode Island on your expense report?
RWD, If anyone thinks I'm taking a car like that out in the snow with all the crazies they are nuts. Besides I won't want it to get dirty. Don't take my V1 out in the rain now.

Cadillac Tony
04-30-08, 03:52 PM
I live in Florida, so no thanks on AWD.

luxilon
04-30-08, 04:14 PM
No to permanent AWD. Advanced AWD that mostly is RWD, but will include the front wheels when needed? Absolutely! Add a dual clutch transmission and maybe even the V in wagon form and you have my perfect dream car.

Florian
04-30-08, 04:21 PM
nah, dont need the under-engineered transfer case that will explode upon hard launch. You know GM has enough problems with the drivetrain w/o having to add a monster half-shaft to take all that torque....

RWD FTW!


F

StealthV
04-30-08, 07:15 PM
How many that voted no have driven a 450+ rwhp blown V?

We'll see if anyone beats urbs V1 record with a V2. :spurs:

thebigjimsho
04-30-08, 08:05 PM
Unlike V1, which gets stored and will ultimately be on the show car circuit, can be RWD since it sees no snow. V2 will be daily driven and year round since I don't plan on keeping that long term. So...AWD...in the snow...on the track...FUN!

SLPR 6.0L
04-30-08, 09:03 PM
AWD would be nice since it will be my daily driver. AWD would alsokeep me from replacing the rears so often and allow me to drive on crapppier worn out tires longer. RWD would rock from a fun to drive point of view, kind of like the modded Turbo Regals I grew up on. Sign me up either way!

BowenCT
04-30-08, 09:57 PM
No AWD. Put it this way, if it was only available in AWD, I wouldn't even buy one.

Rich H
04-30-08, 11:49 PM
So where are we getting the 6% weight increase (~250 lb) and $2500 adder? Has GM already engineered this feature on a similar high hp performance car? Take a close look at the new Nissan GT-R if you want to learn about how much engineering design effort goes into AWD for a car putting out a mere 480 hp and 430 ft-lb torque. This car uses a tranny with transaxle mounted in the rear to balance the additional weight of the front differential. The main drive shaft from engine to rear transaxle is carbon fiber to save weight and the long drive shaft from rear transaxle to front is a 2 piece steel design. It also uses a slew of sophisticated sensors to monitor steering position, throttle, yaw rate, etc to determine the torque distribution between front and rear. Typically 90% of the torque is delivered to the rear wheels but the computer can direct up to 50% to the front.

Does AWD work on this car? Car & Driver says it does. 3.3 sec 0-60, 11.5 sec 1/4 mile with little wheel spin. Is it light? The car weighs in at 3908 lb - pretty heavy for a 2 dr coupe. What were the engineering development and equipment add-on costs? Probably a lot more than $2500 per car.

Does it belong on a 2009 CTS V that is already overweight. Not unless GM is willing to spend a lot of bucks developing it.

StealthV
04-30-08, 11:59 PM
AWD on the CTS is already done.

Give me the weight and cost penalty, I don't want to spin the tires at 100 mph like I did in my last V.

Rich H
05-01-08, 12:54 PM
It's May 1 and I'm looking at snow coming down here in the Rockies. But my V is sitting inside cozy and dry. If I need all wheel drive I'll use my SUV and spare my V, and it's trouble prone drive train, the wear and tear. I hope the 09 with 2WD can manage the perils of dry pavement better than my 04 has.

urbanski
05-01-08, 01:12 PM
How many that voted no have driven a 450+ rwhp blown V?

We'll see if anyone beats urbs V1 record with a V2. :spurs:

5 miles from the dealer is going to be next to impossible without incredible levels of stupidity

RightTurn
05-01-08, 01:14 PM
I'm bettin' it's doable. :thumbsup:

StealthV
05-01-08, 01:24 PM
It's May 1 and I'm looking at snow coming down here in the Rockies. But my V is sitting inside cozy and dry. If I need all wheel drive I'll use my SUV and spare my V, and it's trouble prone drive train, the wear and tear. I hope the 09 with 2WD can manage the perils of dry pavement better than my 04 has.

Agree and is why if there is no AWD V in the future, the next play toy is coming from Bowling Green.

StealthV
05-01-08, 01:30 PM
I'm bettin' it's doable. :thumbsup:

And it's probably going to be done by the car lot attendant after unloading it off the transport truck. V2 is going to be a tempting toy for those who only get to drive it 500' and are driving home later that day in a rusty old Cimmaron.

concorso
05-01-08, 05:31 PM
If it only comes as rwd, I wont have one as that'll limit the driving to about 6 months/year. If thats the case, Ill pick up an 09 'Vette. I want Vette power in a Caddy that I can drive all year long. GM added an auto, and now I can I can consider one, as the significant other refuses to drive a manual.

If GM releases a Coupe awd auto...id fly to the plant and drive it home.

To the title question...do I want it? No. But I want a V, And Id rather a awd/auto V then no V at all:)

StealthV
05-02-08, 09:46 PM
Pushing 40% AWD - How about it Herr Heinrocket? :cheers:

HiTechRV
05-03-08, 11:30 PM
I think it would significantly help launch. It would have to be able to move the power around a lot to be a performance AWD.

70eldo
05-05-08, 05:53 AM
I'd rather save the big bucks on AWD and put it into tweaking more out of the charged 6.2.

Rich H
05-05-08, 10:14 PM
I'd rather save the big bucks on AWD and put it into tweaking more out of the charged 6.2.

Spoken as a true purist who appreciates the higher top speeds achievable on the autobahn with less weight and more hp. Been there, done that. Some might argue that AWD would favor the backroads of the Bavarian or Austrian Alps. I managed them just fine with a RWD BMW when I was last there during Oktoberfest - however, certainly not in the dead of winter when roads are barely passable for any vehicle..

70eldo
05-06-08, 02:11 AM
Spoken as a true purist who appreciates the higher top speeds achievable on the autobahn with less weight and more hp. Been there, done that. Some might argue that AWD would favor the backroads of the Bavarian or Austrian Alps. I managed them just fine with a RWD BMW when I was last there during Oktoberfest - however, certainly not in the dead of winter when roads are barely passable for any vehicle..

BMW, Bavarian, does not have AWD on their cars other than the X3 and X5 (ehm, right?) and they do fine.

Wow, so you do remember some of Oktoberfest? :D I would not survive a drink 'till you drop kinda festival. I also skip carnival for the same reason. I am not a party pooper, but if the focus is on drinking large amounts of alcohol I just have to pass as I cannot handle that. Anyway, hope you had a great time!

Cadillac CTS 08
05-06-08, 03:34 AM
BMW, Bavarian, does not have AWD on their cars other than the X3 and X5 (ehm, right?) and they do fine.

Wow, so you do remember some of Oktoberfest? :D I would not survive a drink 'till you drop kinda festival. I also skip carnival for the same reason. I am not a party pooper, but if the focus is on drinking large amounts of alcohol I just have to pass as I cannot handle that. Anyway, hope you had a great time!

BMW 335xi & 535Xi are AWD

70eldo
05-06-08, 03:56 AM
BMW 335xi & 535Xi are AWD

oops, didn't even know that. :hide: Will the M-version have AWD?

gothicaleigh
05-06-08, 06:53 AM
oops, didn't even know that. :hide: Will the M-version have AWD?

Of course not. The ///M series are performance vehicles made for driving enthusiasts. BMW knows that AWD has no place in such a car.

70eldo
05-06-08, 09:56 AM
Of course not. The ///M series are performance vehicles made for driving enthusiasts. BMW knows that AWD has no place in such a car.

:highfive:

concorso
05-06-08, 10:54 AM
Of course not. The ///M series are performance vehicles made for driving enthusiasts. BMW knows that AWD has no place in such a car.
BMW doesn't call the M division, the Ultimate Driving Machines. The whole lineup use this motto. So Cadillac should follow BMW once again, and NOT offer an AWD V... Cadillac should just takes BMW's direction in general, correct? Since they're the main target?

Well, that means the Escalade/EXT/ESV has got to go! Same with the DTS and XLR, as these are not driving machines.


Cadillac needs to step out and make their own market and stop listening to anyone who tells them to follow. Bring on the AWD Coupe V...before Audi has a chance to release the RS5. Bring on the CTS wagon V awd as well. Leave the germans no room to maneuver.

gothicaleigh
05-06-08, 12:22 PM
BMW doesn't call the M division, the Ultimate Driving Machines. The whole lineup use this motto. So Cadillac should follow BMW once again, and NOT offer an AWD V... Cadillac should just takes BMW's direction in general, correct? Since they're the main target?

I really like BMW's, so that would be fine with me.


Well, that means the Escalade/EXT/ESV has got to go!

Don't get me started on the Escalade.

Like the X5 is for BMW, Cadillac's Escalade is a necessary evil that funds the better vehicles in the lineup. Unlike the X5, the Escalade suffers from the same problem that ails Lincoln.


Same with the DTS and XLR, as these are not driving machines.

They are doing away with the DTS, and have you driven an XLR? I hear it's a pretty competent roadster (needs a manual trans option, especially in the V, but besides that it's a very nice first effort).


Cadillac needs to step out and make their own market and stop listening to anyone who tells them to follow. Bring on the AWD Coupe V...before Audi has a chance to release the RS5. Bring on the CTS wagon V awd as well. Leave the germans no room to maneuver.

So what you are really saying is that they should quit chasing BMW and start following Audi?

Rich H
05-06-08, 01:30 PM
BMW, Bavarian, does not have AWD on their cars other than the X3 and X5 (ehm, right?) and they do fine.

Wow, so you do remember some of Oktoberfest? :D I would not survive a drink 'till you drop kinda festival. I also skip carnival for the same reason. I am not a party pooper, but if the focus is on drinking large amounts of alcohol I just have to pass as I cannot handle that. Anyway, hope you had a great time!

I did Oktoberfest on my last trip, including the beer and roast chicken, the day before I flew out of Munich - very little driving after that other than to the airport. All of the serious driving was done prior to that primarily along the German-Austrian border. My BMW (323i as I remember) was a rental - certainly not an M car. However, although the traction was great on the well manicured paved roads I nearly burned out the clutch on a few of the steep inclines. The clutch is the weak point on most BMWs as I found out first hand. But the tires never needed AWD for traction. I didn't spend much time on the autobahn on this trip but have done that in the past. Would love to take my V over there next time and check out the top speed at closer to sea level.

luxilon
05-06-08, 01:48 PM
In these kind of threads you will always end up with the "a true driver/purist only needs RWD and a manual transmission" statements. Unfortunately technology is passing you by.

The dual clutch gear boxes coming out are simply the best of both worlds (manual vs. automatic). Go check reviews of the latest M3 dual clutch offering.

Some of the cars we're talking about have so much torque that you simply can't put it to the pavement. Advanced AWD systems that are RWD most of the time but can power any wheel at will based on individual traction levels, steering wheel position, rate of accelleration/decelleration etc. etc. are going to be necessary and won't detract from your pure driving pleasure (if they do for certain special occasions then you can disable them at will).

So because BMW doesn't offer it on their current M cars we just have to assume that AWD is evil. I'm predicting that once M cars are released at torque levels of 550 they'll need to add AWD to stay competitive as well (newly released M3 only has 295 lb-ft). I bet you GM is heavily researching it for the next Corvette generation. Heck Lambo's currently have AWD and that's not just because they are in the Audi camp.

Rich H
05-06-08, 02:47 PM
^^^ Precisely my point several posts ago in this thread. There are lots of car manufacturers such as Nissan dabbling in AWD for high performance cars. However, it will take a serious committment and $$ investment by GM to produce an AWD that will deliver what's needed in a dynamic operating environment as well as hold up to the rigors of 500+ hp.

HiTechRV
05-06-08, 08:42 PM
I think the ZR1 would do better with AWD - it has passed the point where you can get all the power to the rear wheels at double digit speeds.

70eldo
05-07-08, 03:50 AM
Great AWD/4WD info on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-wheel_drive

I heard about AWD in F1, but I didn't know many tried it.

Rich H
05-07-08, 09:00 PM
And I quote from Wikipedia:

4WD in road racing

Bugatti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugatti) created a total of three four-wheel drive racers, the Type 53 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugatti_Type_53), in 1932, but the cars were legendary for having poor handling. Ferguson Research Ltd. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_Research_Ltd.) built the front-engine P99 Formula One (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_One) car that actually won a non-WC race with Stirling Moss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirling_Moss) in 1961. In 1969, Team Lotus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_Lotus) raced cars in F1 and the Indy 500 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indy_500) that had both turbine engines and 4WD, as well as the 4WD-Lotus 63 that had the standard Cosworth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosworth) engine. Matra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matra) also raced a similar MS84, and McLaren (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLaren) entered their M9A (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLaren_M9A) in the British Grand Prix (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1969_British_Grand_Prix), while engine manufacturers Cosworth produced their own version which was tested but never raced. All these F1 cars were considered inferior to their RWD counterparts, as the advent of aerodynamic downforce meant that adequate traction could be obtained in a lighter and more mechanically efficient manner, and the idea was discontinued, even though Lotus tried repeatedly.

So forget the AWD - all we need is a wing or 2.

HiTechRV
05-07-08, 10:20 PM
The aero packages work great at tripple digits. Street aero from the factory is usually about reducing lift rather than producing much downforce (or decoration - many are totally non-functional). The ones that are functional do not do a lot at low speeds.

StealthV
05-07-08, 10:35 PM
A 1932 RWD Chevrolet was no handling powerhouse either. What's the point? Back in the day, the Audi Quattro was banned for its superiority. Yadda, yadda, yadda.

Since the RWD lovers are already getting their V2; let those of us with more cash than brains buy one with AWD. We're obviously delusional. :)

And God looked down upon the little humans scurring around in their supercharged Cadillacs and wondered how they'd take the next round of weather. Snow. Ice. Rain. Over 600 hp at the crank (Screw the warranty). And God said "Yep, it's time for AWD."

So it shall be written. So it shall be done.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=41840&stc=1&d=1210214039

70eldo
05-08-08, 04:31 AM
A 1932 RWD Chevrolet was no handling powerhouse either. What's the point? Back in the day, the Audi Quattro was banned for its superiority. Yadda, yadda, yadda.

Since the RWD lovers are already getting their V2; let those of us with more cash than brains buy one with AWD. We're obviously delusional. :)

And God looked down upon the little humans scurring around in their supercharged Cadillacs and wondered how they'd take the next round of weather. Snow. Ice. Rain. Over 600 hp at the crank (Screw the warranty). And God said "Yep, it's time for AWD."

So it shall be written. So it shall be done.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=41840&stc=1&d=1210214039


LOL!

well, it is not 2010 yet, so I might make up my mind... :p

concorso
05-08-08, 08:48 PM
So what you are really saying is that they should quit chasing BMW Yes.
and start following Audi? No. Im saying Cadillac needs a clearly defined image. I surely don't want it to be "BMW for less money" AWD would offer a tonne of flexibility in the V-lineup that none of the German rivals offer.

I understand that its against the purists code of rwd + 6 spd manual...but lets not forget the V allready is a compromise. Its very heavy and has too many seats. Sure, lots of people here even call it the 4dr 'Vette.

A rwd V, even with a manual, is still a compromise. Thats no insult because it does what it does great! AWD would be just another slight compromise, with lots of added benefits. There would be more configurations of V, and if designed right, would still perform really well.