: Should I feel a big difference with Hotchkis sway bars?



Twitch
04-20-08, 09:45 PM
I've had them on two weeks, and to be honest, it's hard to tell the difference. The roads I usually drive are always busy, so I cant really get into them as fast as I'd like, but I thought it would be easier to feel them on the car.
The car handles great, but it seems like the front still rolls a bit. Not sure I want to lower the car, cuz the roads here really suck.
I was wondering if I should go with a more aggressive alignment? What are the pros/cons?
Any spring kits out there that dont lower the car?
Thanks

Tony

CTSV_510
04-20-08, 10:04 PM
I've had them on two weeks, and to be honest, it's hard to tell the difference. The roads I usually drive are always busy, so I cant really get into them as fast as I'd like, but I thought it would be easier to feel them on the car.
The car handles great, but it seems like the front still rolls a bit. Not sure I want to lower the car, cuz the roads here really suck.
I was wondering if I should go with a more aggressive alignment? What are the pros/cons?
Any spring kits out there that dont lower the car?
Thanks

Tony

I don't know about the sways, but I believe a more agressive alignment can/will reduce gas mileage and increase tire wear (if you care).

Have you considered FG2 shocks? I have driven both (though about a year apart) and the FG2s definitely allow less roll. I like mine a lot better.

Twitch
04-20-08, 10:29 PM
I don't know about the sways, but I believe a more agressive alignment can/will reduce gas mileage and increase tire wear (if you care).

Have you considered FG2 shocks? I have driven both (though about a year apart) and the FG2s definitely allow less roll. I like mine a lot better.

Yeah, but the sways lightly rub the FE4s, and I think the FG2s are thicker. Maybe I'll start looking into some aftermarket shocks.

I care about tire wear to a point. It'll take me over a year to go 10K miles but it would suck for the inside of the tire to be shot while the rest has good meat on it. I get 10 mpg, so I'm not worried about that.

I want turn-in to feel quicker.

AAIIIC
04-21-08, 02:37 AM
An aggressive street alignment (as laid out in the FAQ) will improve handling at little to no cost in tire wear.

rand49er
04-21-08, 02:27 PM
I've had them on two weeks, and to be honest, it's hard to tell the difference. The roads I usually drive are always busy, so I cant really get into them as fast as I'd like, but I thought it would be easier to feel them on the car.
The car handles great, but it seems like the front still rolls a bit. Not sure I want to lower the car, cuz the roads here really suck.
I was wondering if I should go with a more aggressive alignment? What are the pros/cons?
Any spring kits out there that dont lower the car?
Thanks

TonyFunny you should mention "aggressive alignment." Just got back from a shop to have the aggressive street alignment from the FAQ done on my car. According to the guy who did it, it really needed it (especially the left side ... probably due to the GC lowering kit). Noted BIG difference on highway at 90 MPH ... more stable now.

IMHO, even with the GC kit, you don't have to go much lower than stock if you don't choose to. And, again IMHO, the higher rate springs really don't make the car THAT much stiffer to ride in ... even with Michigan's roads. :eek:

Having said all that, I suspect that taken together, the Hots bars, GC kit, FG2's, and aggressive street alignment have all probably made a significant handling improvement in my car, but doing them stepwise lessens the impact so even though I know it's better, it's just harder to notice. Need to get it out on a track. :sneaky:

Twitch
04-21-08, 03:27 PM
Funny you should mention "aggressive alignment." Just got back from a shop to have the aggressive street alignment from the FAQ done on my car. According to the guy who did it, it really needed it (especially the left side ... probably due to the GC lowering kit). Noted BIG difference on highway at 90 MPH ... more stable now.

IMHO, even with the GC kit, you don't have to go much lower than stock if you don't choose to. And, again IMHO, the higher rate springs really don't make the car THAT much stiffer to ride in ... even with Michigan's roads. :eek:

Having said all that, I suspect that taken together, the Hots bars, GC kit, FG2's, and aggressive street alignment have all probably made a significant handling improvement in my car, but doing them stepwise lessens the impact so even though I know it's better, it's just harder to notice. Need to get it out on a track. :sneaky:

I hope that track is Summit Point :thumbsup:

What do you mean when you say more stable. Mine seems to wander if there's a rut in the road. Anything like that?
Think I'll get the allignment done Saturday.

rangerrob
04-21-08, 03:54 PM
i'm upgrading all components fg2s gc's and hotchkis sways at the same time, right b4 summit, so i hope there will be a noticeable improvement after throwing down over 2k on suspension parts... could've been 1/3 of the way to my maggie... lol

The Tony Show
04-21-08, 04:24 PM
FG2 shocks won't reduce body roll- a shock absorber's sole job is to stop the springs from bouncing (hence the name), and the stiffer rebound on the FG2's simply gets the spring back to the neutral position faster. Reductions in body lean will only come from stiffer springs and sway bars.

As far as the "wandering", the cure for that is toe-in (think a pair of skis). My car had a LOT of toe in from the factory and was chewing up the outside shoulders of the tires on hard corners. I put the front to 0 toe, and while the tire wear and steering linearity improved, it tends to follow any imperfection in the road now.

CTSV_510
04-21-08, 04:43 PM
FG2 shocks won't reduce body roll- a shock absorber's sole job is to stop the springs from bouncing (hence the name), and the stiffer rebound on the FG2's simply gets the spring back to the neutral position faster. Reductions in body lean will only come from stiffer springs and sway bars.



I've got a question for you. So when you take a turn and the outside springs compress (creating body roll), the shocks are also being compressed. If their job is to return the springs back to the neutral position, what are they doing mid-turn? Nothing?

And I'm not saying you're wrong or trying to argue, I would just like to know. I still have a bit of a low IQ when it comes to some of this stuff. :)

EDIT: I'm still not getting this to work out in my brain. And I have driven a V with the FE4 and mine (with FG2), both stock springs, and I remember the FE4s allowing more roll. Now I wish I have driven them right after another, not months apart.

The Tony Show
04-21-08, 05:03 PM
I don't know the exact ratings on both for the FG2s, but shocks have two ratings: Compression (being how hard the shock resists compressing upward when you hit a bump) and rebound (how fast it pushes back down after being compressed). I'm not 100% sure, but I believe the main advantage of the FG2s is increased rebound, which helps prevent excessive up and down movement in the front end during transitions by getting the suspension back to the "neutral" position quickly.

I recall reading somewhere that the FE4 Nivomats in the CTS-V have basically 0 compression resistance, so while I'm sure there is a slight difference with the FG2s, the main thing controlling how far the suspension compresses under cornering loads is the spring rate, not the shock.

Here's some good reading on shocks: http://www.circletrack.com/techarticles/139_0307_shock_absorber_tech/index.html

Twitch
04-21-08, 05:26 PM
FG2 shocks won't reduce body roll- a shock absorber's sole job is to stop the springs from bouncing (hence the name), and the stiffer rebound on the FG2's simply gets the spring back to the neutral position faster. Reductions in body lean will only come from stiffer springs and sway bars.

As far as the "wandering", the cure for that is toe-in (think a pair of skis). My car had a LOT of toe in from the factory and was chewing up the outside shoulders of the tires on hard corners. I put the front to 0 toe, and while the tire wear and steering linearity improved, it tends to follow any imperfection in the road now.

Just checked the FAQ, and they don't seem to have the aggressive street setting anymore. I should still have a printout from last year.
My question is, it doesn't mention toe-in. Any idea how much I should tell them to put in?
As bad as the roads are up here, my car is all over the place. It really takes the fun out of going fast, so I'm not too concerned about the tires (as long as I don't over heat them).
Thanks

Tony

CTSV_510
04-21-08, 05:34 PM
http://www.cadillacfaq.com/faq/answers/alignment.html

Twitch
04-21-08, 05:50 PM
http://www.cadillacfaq.com/faq/answers/alignment.html

Haha, I was just coming back to post on that. I guess my browser pooped out on me :helpless:. I left the page open, and now it showes the whole thing, even the toe-in.
Thanks guys

Tony

rand49er
04-21-08, 05:52 PM
http://www.cadillacfaq.com/faq/answers/alignment.html

CTSV 510 beat me. I did a search using "track," and it was the third one down the list. The aggressive street alignment is at the bottom and includes toe in info.

Just to briefly add what Tony said, a spring resists compression (and extension), an anti-sway bar resists body roll (i.e. one side compressing while the other side does not), and a shock absorber resists the rate or speed of compression/extension of the springs or body roll. Therefore, if compressed slowly enough, a shock absorber offers virtually no resistance to either compression or extension; the higher the rate of compression or extension, the more resistance the shock provides.

Twitch
04-21-08, 05:58 PM
http://www.cadillacfaq.com/faq/answers/alignment.html

CTSV 510 beat me. I did a search using "track," and it was the third one down the list. The aggressive street alignment is at the bottom and includes toe in info.

Just to briefly add what Tony said, a spring resists compression (and extension), an anti-sway bar resists body roll (i.e. one side compressing while the other side does not), and a shock absorber resists the rate or speed of compression/extension of the springs or body roll. Therefore, if compressed slowly enough, a shock absorber offers virtually no resistance to either compression or extension; the higher the rate of compression or extension, the more resistance the shock provides.

Yup yup, that's why I was thinking about new shocks, cuz I want a quicker turn in. It's feels good once I'm in the turn, but the moment I throw it in the turn, the outside front seems to dive a little too much.
I feel good about the alignment though. We'll see this weekend.:thumbsup:

The Tony Show
04-21-08, 06:04 PM
Yup yup, that's why I was thinking about new shocks, cuz I want a quicker turn in. It's feels good once I'm in the turn, but the moment I throw it in the turn, the outside front seems to dive a little too much.

Are you trail braking much? Even so, stiffer springs seem like the cure more than FG2s...

crankedupforit
04-21-08, 06:53 PM
I'll take a stab at it. The FG2s controll the motion of the spring. During weight transfer, before the car takes a set in a turn, the weight shift can be fast and hard with low compression shocks. Force = mass x speed. This can cause the car to list quickly because the shock is not controlling the compression of the spring very well. The FG2s do a much better job of controlling the speed of that weight transfer and don't allow that big mass to lean over all at once. In fact I've heard people say that FG2s can over power the stock spring at low speed. Remember that shocks are valved so that the faster they compress, the more resistance they produce. So my guess is that shocks do contribute something to body roll.

Twitch
04-21-08, 07:03 PM
I'll take a stab at it. The FG2s controll the motion of the spring. During weight transfer, before the car takes a set in a turn, the weight shift can be fast and hard with low compression shocks. Force = mass x speed. This can cause the car to list quickly because the shock is not controlling the compression of the spring very well. The FG2s do a much better job of controlling the speed of that weight transfer and don't allow that big mass to lean over all at once. In fact I've heard people say that FG2s can over power the stock spring at low speed. Remember that shocks are valved so that the faster they compress, the more resistance they produce. So my guess is that shocks do contribute something to body roll.


Are you trail braking much? Even so, stiffer springs seem like the cure more than FG2s...

Yes and yes, I think your both right. Everything helps, and they work together.
While we're on the subject of stiffer springs....I'm thinking a GC kit may be my next real mod. I know you need the Z06 end links. But I read that the guys with FG2s and to drill into the control arm to make them fit with the Hotchkis sways. Is that also the case with the FE4s?

The Tony Show
04-21-08, 07:04 PM
^ Makes sense. I've always heard that springs and sways have the biggest effect on roll, but I suppose the shocks have to factor in somewhere.

Twitch
04-21-08, 07:10 PM
i'm upgrading all components fg2s gc's and hotchkis sways at the same time, right b4 summit, so i hope there will be a noticeable improvement after throwing down over 2k on suspension parts... could've been 1/3 of the way to my maggie... lol

Your always better off with a better suspension. Especially at the track. But everyday driving, its hard to get the full benifit of that great handling. You cant really use a Maggie to its full potential either, but its nice to play with it and get pushed back into your seat whenever you want to.
Tough choice.

atdeneve
04-21-08, 07:13 PM
I'll take a stab at it. The FG2s controll the motion of the spring. During weight transfer, before the car takes a set in a turn, the weight shift can be fast and hard with low compression shocks. Force = mass x speed. This can cause the car to list quickly because the shock is not controlling the compression of the spring very well. The FG2s do a much better job of controlling the speed of that weight transfer and don't allow that big mass to lean over all at once. In fact I've heard people say that FG2s can over power the stock spring at low speed. Remember that shocks are valved so that the faster they compress, the more resistance they produce. So my guess is that shocks do contribute something to body roll.

F=MA, not F=MV. Probably just an oversight, but, yeah, that's the gist of it.

Randy explained it quite effectively. Notice he refers to the "rate of compression or extension", which is a measurement of acceleration.



Just to briefly add what Tony said, a spring resists compression (and extension), an anti-sway bar resists body roll (i.e. one side compressing while the other side does not), and a shock absorber resists the rate or speed of compression/extension of the springs or body roll. Therefore, if compressed slowly enough, a shock absorber offers virtually no resistance to either compression or extension; the higher the rate of compression or extension, the more resistance the shock provides.

v10boost
04-21-08, 07:47 PM
IMHO, i noticed big difference. First I had front sway bar done and had rear installed after because they send wrong rear mounts. I would recommend this mod to anyone and this is must to do. I actually liked how car handled with just the front sway bar. Sliding the car around the corner with stiffer front sway bar was so much fun compare to front and rear sways.

v10boost
04-21-08, 07:55 PM
Well, I am still waiting for my full coilover setup, I am very happy with stock shocks with eibach springs and hotchkis sway bars. For daily driver this is just perfect, honestly I'm not sure how much faster my lap-time will be will stiffer fg2. I think it is more important to get set up track wheels with better tires. I feel that my car as is has more suspension than tires for sure.

Also, I just had spectrum bushings installed in rear and that also made some difference in rear of the car. car is much tighter than before and it did help with wheel hop and haven't heard of squeak yet.

I can't wait for urethane engine and trans mounts and full suspension bushings when it comes available. Full urethane bushings in the car should tighten the car whole lot and should be night and day difference.

faylix
04-21-08, 08:07 PM
Im doing mostly the same, but i'm opting for the rear antisway bar from Lindsey as well. I think it should complete the set very nicely.

rand49er
04-21-08, 08:19 PM
... a better suspension ... a Maggie ...Do 'em both. You'll be less tempted by the '09 V when it comes out. :D

Twitch
04-21-08, 08:25 PM
Do 'em both. You'll be less tempted by the '09 V when it comes out. :D

Your evil :rant2:
Actually, its the interior thats gonna bother me.

FYI I have a long term plan for the Maggie. Not quite $ready$ for it just yet.

crankedupforit
04-21-08, 09:12 PM
F=MA, not F=MV. Probably just an oversight, but, yeah, that's the gist of it.

Randy explained it quite effectively. Notice he refers to the "rate of compression or extension", which is a measurement of acceleration.


Randy is a propellerhead and spends way to much time reading about this sh*t. Besides he's way smarter than me and has more mods. Anyway just wanted to underscore the fact that suspensions don't only compress when riding over pot holes.

Thank you for correcting me on acceleration vs velocity . I never get that right.