First a little background.......I am a retired GM employee. I started working there in 1971 and retired at the end of 2003. I spent most of my career there in hourly, although I did 3 years in management from 1978 to 1981. I was there to see GM make their share of mistakes by putting poorly designed and even poorer quality products out the door through the late 70's, to the mid 80's I was not proud of what we produced at any of our divisions. Quality was a word that everyone bantered about, but the real issue was "quantity". I watched as GM finally got the picture that quality really was being demanded by the customer. It was a monumental task to turn the culture into a "quality first" way of thinking. It started with managers who were sold on the concept and it worked it's way through the ranks. Instead of two separate, sometimes opposing departments, there was finally a merger of production, and quality control.
There have been several threads that have been sarcastic about GM and the UAW as far as their commitment to quality, and how much money they make. UAW workers know firsthand what poor quality has done to the ranks. There is now quality accountablilty for everyone when it comes to the end product and their involvement.
The cars that are built today by all the manufacturers are so much more complex than they were even 5 years ago. The amount of equipment alone is constantly increasing. Every manufacturer is having a certain amount of problems with their initial quality. The popular opinion is that the Japanese make a superior vehicle compared to all the rest. They have their quality problems as well. A friend of mine has a Toyota Camry that has less than 16,000 miles on it that failed a wheel bearing last summer while he was on vacation several states from home. He was absolutely furious that this failed and the part to replace it had to be ordered, delaying his trip for 6 days! His comment: "This should not happen to a Toyota....that's why I bought a Japenese car...they aren't supposed to have any problems!". Cars are mass produced. They can not be individualy 100% inspected...it is not feasable. I've only had my '08 CTS for two weeks and a little over 500 miles. So far it is perfect. I can say that my 2003 CTS was a very dependable vehicle. It required 2 service issues (one was a recall) and a failed battery last December.
GM may not be perfect, but they are right up there at the top with their commitment to quality, and by GM I mean management, engineering, and hourly personel.

Great post that tells it like it is.:yup:

I agree with your insight on GM's renewed interest in quality. I wouldn't have considered this vehicle if it didn't have the world-class "feel" that it does.

On another note, I recently rented a new Malibu while on business, and was blown away by what a great car that was, especially for the $.

Well said.

Too much emotion around here. Not enough maturity.

The numbers (JD Power, CR,etc) will tell the tale.

People need to understand that the highest quality cars (IE Lexus LS430, etc) have 90 problems or more, per 100 vehicles in the first 90 days.

I guess my experience was (fortunately) extremely unique...

Doncrystalred,

Yes, I agree everything fails, I agree it is not possible to have perfect cars. Yes, cars are more complex now but also more reliable. GM and UAW – I do not want to comment on this one as it would take too long a statement.

I have owned many cars including Fords, GM and Japanese. I can only say the CTS is the worst initial quality car I have ever owned. So far front bumper required alignment – 2 days in the shop, trunk lid shocks failed – two trips to the dealer, brake squeal and door rattle – visit to the dealer, not fixed, rumbling while brake applied and car in drive and low, rumbling noise at 50 – 55 mpg still to be resolved. So we can count at least 6 problems so far….most not resolved yet.
Good thing is the service department treats me well. But I am running out of patience….

I honestly can say this is most striking car on the market now, I love it! And am trying to enjoy it. However, these “quirks” do affect my enjoyment….I just hope GM will step up and solve all the problems….

Guys/gals---when I worked at a BMW service/dealership we had brand new 7 series like 2004's come in with the "idrive" being down....meaning there whole car was down and not driveable! We had a 745 in the garage for 2 weeks waiting on a computer for this brand new car w/ 2k miles on it. I WOULD BE PISSED IF I JUST DROPPED 60-70K ON A "PRESTINE" VEHICLE AND IT DECIDED TO HAVE THE COMPUTER CRASH!!!!!!! All cars have there problems expensive or not! Always expect the worst and hope for the best! I had a 2002 dodge stratus r/t w/ 15k miles on it and the tranny crapped out! I didn't have a car for 3 weeks I was driving a cavalier as a rental....it sucks! How about the 2004 gto's, I bet most of you haven't heard this one! My front tires were rubbing on the strut towers causing a huge groove in the inner tire...had to replace all four. You should have seen them when they came off, a few hundred miles of driving and i would have lost control of the vehicle and crash into the median while driving downtown if i said...nah i will wait to drop $500.00 on a brand new set of tires!!! GM DIDN'T PICK THAT UP FOR ME BTW! Oh well.....I can't wait to get my CTS though! ha! Sorry for venting and talking....I will stop now.

Doncrystalred,

Yes, I agree everything fails, I agree it is not possible to have perfect cars. Yes, cars are more complex now but also more reliable. GM and UAW – I do not want to comment on this one as it would take too long a statement.

I have owned many cars including Fords, GM and Japanese. I can only say the CTS is the worst initial quality car I have ever owned. So far front bumper required alignment – 2 days in the shop, trunk lid shocks failed – two trips to the dealer, brake squeal and door rattle – visit to the dealer, not fixed, rumbling while brake applied and car in drive and low, rumbling noise at 50 – 55 mpg still to be resolved. So we can count at least 6 problems so far….most not resolved yet.
Good thing is the service department treats me well. But I am running out of patience….

I honestly can say this is most striking car on the market now, I love it! And am trying to enjoy it. However, these “quirks” do affect my enjoyment….I just hope GM will step up and solve all the problems….

Mofex,
I understand that you are upset, and I don't blame you. Your situation is not being resolved by your dealer's service dept. I'm not going to try to guess what is causing the problems (especially the rumbling), but your dealer's service dept may be over-matched. As horrible as Cracketzot's engine faliure was, it was easily identified, and therefore resolved in a very satisfactory manner, by the dealer and GM. I don't know if you have tried to contact anyone else besides the dealer. I know the guys on this forum will probably be able to give you advice on the steps to take to get someone that is knowledgable to address your concerns.
As for GM and UAW, please understand that both of them have had past shortcomings, but they are VERY aware that they need to work together to produce quality products in order to survive. My early background was in the USAF as an aricraft mechanic. My first day an instructor told our class that everything we did as a mechanic involved people's lives. Any mistake that we made could be catostrophic. That really sunk in with me and I carried that with me in my GM career. The past 10 years have really been encouraging for me, because I have seen the culture change. Quality is no longer just lipservice. For the guys on the floor it is becoming as natural as breathing.

I really like my CTS. However, I have to say this.
It's not intial quality problem no more. GM is accepting orders for 2009 CTS.
GM should know what problems they have on 2008 CTS now.
The dealer's service department, they are not going to replace or fix anything if the problem is not on the GM's list.
GM, do something! Do more actual customer survey, Educate and alert dealer's service department.
Intital Quality is not real problem... Service... Service... Service...

I am in agreement with doncrystalred regarding GM AND the UAW's recent focus on quality. I do believe this is helping with new vehicle launches, and all they have to do now is get the rest of their (aging) product & plants to catch up - the union in their newer plants seem to realize that their livelihood depends on it, and they're rising to the challenge. Hopefully Mofex can get his issues taken care of satisfactorily.

O.K. O.K. You sold me on the fact that the factory has turned over a new leaf. Now what can be done with the Service Advisor people at the dealership? I think it's a real bummer that they know so little about the product. It really stinks when you go for service ( turn signal bulb) and you end up with sales men. Example: 2,500 miles since last oil change the try to tell you it's close to needing another oil change??? (We are using Mobil 1) I guess they need the revenue real bad?:tisk:

All cars break regardless of the cost or country of manufacture.
My boss' Lamborghini saw plenty of service in its first year, more than most of the Chevys we had in the shop.

People who percieve quality based on the price or country of origin probably believe everything else they see on TV or read on the internet.

All cars can have problems. But some have more problems than others. GM's quality control is still not where it needs to be, especially during the first year.

I'll be able to go into more detail on the 2008 CTS in a few weeks, when TrueDelta's May results are released. Still a few weeks to go in the data collection.

Vehicle reliability research (http://www.truedelta.com/reliability.php)

Yes, All cars have problems. Most of problem we've seen in this forum is cosmetic issue.
How fast they detect and react to solve problems is important.

So far the CTS is more trouble free than a first year design rollout than any other car I have ever seen GM make.
Personally, I wouldn't go out and spend $60,000 and then whine about why I don't like it.

If it sucks so bad, trade them back in and buy something "good".
Why not be happy rather than sitting around complaining all the time? (not directed at anyone, just a general comment)

Is this glass half empty or half full?

I agree and have said so.

Sure, things break.
And we all need a place to vent.
But let's vent and get it out of our system.
Plus it helps to know if there is already a fix, etc......

But i grow tired of seeing the same litany, from the same people, over and over and over again.
I have seen people here make the same comments about their cars problems........TWICE a day! for more than one day...........

Trade it.....sell it.......set it on fire and collect the insurance .......but do something besides complain.........

I have said......several times.......If I have THREE problems in 12 months......I will sell/trade this car........and I will.
I paid cash, so there is no issue with just taking it down to the Lexus Dealer............

So far, nothing after 3 months. I Should say, nothing but smiles......
Yes, the battery went bad, but the rating agencies don't count Batteries, or Tires, against the OEM, so I won't either.
(Actually, Cadillac Road Assistance was SO outstanding, that it came out a positive, not a negative, anyway!)

But I don't mean to keep people from venting the first couple of times if things aren't going well.
We all need to know what is going bad as well as what is going well.
And if we have a problem we deserve to know if somebody has had the same issue and perhaps knows the fix...........I WOULD like to see people use the search function more.........

I'm still suspect about complaints that are just repeated over and over.

The good thing about the internet is that news of problems travels quickly. The bad thing about the internet is that pretty much every product will have some fairly convincing reviews about why you shouldn't buy it; exhibit A is portable DVD players as I am looking for one at this point and have yet to find one without numerous detractors.

Back on focus with the CTS, it is a consumer product and there are going to be problems because nobody can build a multi-featured complex product and sell it at a marketable price with the true expectation of zero defects. To put things in perspective, take a look at some of the recent problems with commercial aviation equipment and even in that environment you certainly don't find zero problems. Having a good dealer can certainly make the difference and that is probably one of the biggest looming problems in the auto industry because as profits get squeezed at the retail level service is ultimately going to drop also. I am fortunate to have a nearby dealer who has been excellent and has taken care of the minor problems I have had with previous vehicles without problems or callbacks. The other half of the equation is in my experience GM has stepped up when there was a problem or potential problem (for example providing a 10 year/120,000 mile warranty extension on the problematic injection pump on the 6.5 diesel and extending the warranty on the injectors used in the first generation Duramax diesel after field failures were evident). GM also provided a free extended warranty on my wife's 2001 Impala after the Chevrolet dealer misdiagnosed a wheel speed sensor multiple times to make up for her inconvenience.

To put the price into perspective, $45,000 may seem like a fairly high amount for a car but as I write this I am taking a break from my hobby of restoring vintage amateur radio gear and the pair of Tektronix scopes I have on the bench along with their plug-ins originally cost the government (in the 1980's NOT adjusted for inflation) more than what I am paying for a new CTS. Although Tektronix provided a benchmark of quality with these instruments the backs of the manuals also provide a number of running changes that were made to correct problems and these were not built as consumer items.

I'm still suspect about complaints that are just repeated over and over.

Very suspicious...and then every time someone or the same person replies to the OP it shoots up to the top, grabbing everyone's attention like a big bolded headline...making things look worse than it really is. :stirpot:

So far the CTS is more trouble free than a first year design rollout than any other car I have ever seen GM make.
Personally, I wouldn't go out and spend $60,000 and then whine about why I don't like it.

If it sucks so bad, trade them back in and buy something "good".
Why not be happy rather than sitting around complaining all the time? (not directed at anyone, just a general comment)

Is this glass half empty or half full?

Detroit's problem is that fewer and fewer people have been willing to see car problems this way. For years Detroit acted as if the problem was a matter of complainers, not anything with the cars. Guess what? That strategy didn't work out well for them.

The reason not to simply trade a car is that you'll lose thousands of dollars in the process. Why should the buyer lose thousands of dollars because the manufacturer's quality control wasn't what it should be? If people think they're assuming such a risk when they buy a specific car, many won't buy the car.

The thing is, the CTS doesn't just compete with other GM cars. And GM isn't the master of the clean launch. So your statement that the new CTS has a low problem rate compared to other GM cars doesn't mean much.

In February, TrueDelta reported a fairly high initial repair rate for the 2008 CTS. We'll be updating this result based on about four times as much data as last time.

Vehicle reliability research (http://www.truedelta.com/reliability.php)

I think makaresh put it the right way. I am not complaining without a reason. I ALWAYS, I repeat ALWAYS work with dealer/mechanic trying to solve the problem. I am an engineer and know a bit about equipment, failures, failure modes, quality control etc. And I do give people second chance, even third one. Why I am still with the same dealer? Because he seems to genuinely trying.....and this is the attitudes that make me coming back....

I learned on this board about all my three problems and their solutions. I will take day off from work and work with the dealer and the mechanic to solve them....I think neither dealer nor the GM can ask for more....

The thing is, the CTS doesn't just compete with other GM cars. And GM isn't the master of the clean launch. So your statement that the new CTS has a low problem rate compared to other GM cars doesn't mean much.


It means exactly what I meant it to mean.
I don't have to justify my remarks, they are still truthful. The "launch" is over and production of this car is in full swing. Early production bugs, at a historically low rate, are being fixed on the assembly line and in the shop as they come up.

Detroit's biggest problem is biased media sources gathering tainted, useless statisitics in order to manipulate them to say what they want and make GM look bad even though they are producing better vehicles than they have in 30 years. :lol:

Bear in mind my personal perspective, which I would agree very few people have.
I really don't give a rat's hind end about other car companies. I don't care what Mercedes, Jaguar, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Audi, Volkswagen, Aston Martin, Ferrari, or Lamborghini are making... I just don't care.
I work for Cadillac and fix the vehicles I own myself.
My JOB is to fix Cadillacs and I know them better than almost anyone. I really don't care if they are better or worse than whatever else is on the market. That is up to some suit up in Detroit. It isn't my job to care.
My job is to take a car that isn't doing what it was designed to do and fix it. I do that better than almost anyone I know. If you want to argue semantics and compare apples to apples, oranges, or peaches, go ahead.
It still won't matter to me, it won't influence me in any way, shape, or form. There are plenty of Cadillacs on the road, people own them, maintain them, and keep buying new ones. As long as that happens I'll have something to do and when it stops, I'll find something else to do.

If you want to argue opinions, please single out someone else. ;)
I am here to help people and occaisionally offer my opinion, it is right there above. If you disagree with it... go ahead and disagree.

"Detroit's biggest problem is biased media sources gathering tainted, useless statisitics..."

That's the only bit I'd disagree with. The rest demonstrates that you're very well aware that your perspective is personal--as all are.

I do see that you're in Virginia. I grew up in Virginia Beach, and have a sister in the DC suburbs. As I've mentioned quite a few times on this board, my father--in Virginia Beach--recently bought a new CTS. And last I checked he has yet to see another on the road where he lives.

Point is, in Virginia Cadillac hasn't been doing well in recent years. And that's because an increasing number of people do compare across all makes. It's not simply a matter of biased media. People were most affected by their personal experiences with GM products, not things they read in a magazine.

"Detroit's biggest problem is biased media sources gathering tainted, useless statisitics..."

That's the only bit I'd disagree with. The rest demonstrates that you're very well aware that your perspective is personal--as all are.

I do see that you're in Virginia. I grew up in Virginia Beach, and have a sister in the DC suburbs. As I've mentioned quite a few times on this board, my father--in Virginia Beach--recently bought a new CTS. And last I checked he has yet to see another on the road where he lives.

Point is, in Virginia Cadillac hasn't been doing well in recent years. And that's because an increasing number of people do compare across all makes. It's not simply a matter of biased media. People were most affected by their personal experiences with GM products, not things they read in a magazine.

Mkaresh,
You are way off base if you think that people aren't heavily swayed by the media. The media has more influence over what the public perception is on everything from politics to what we eat. "Experts" are quoted in articles. Often these "experts" aren't even named. The media has condemned American automobiles for years....often they were right. The problem I have had the past few years is that they will often base a "review" on the past history of a manufacturer, and are reluctant to acknowledge the American companies committment to quality.

GM’s Doing as Much as Any Automaker to Reduce Oil Dependence
(Editor’s note: Journalist Derrick Jackson of The Boston Globe recently attacked Detroit’s automakers in his syndicated column. Below is our response. We submitted this to the Globe, but the newspaper declined to run it, citing its policy of not accepting op/eds that respond to Globe columns. The Globe did run a much shorter version of this response in their letters to the editor column Saturday (Sept. 16). We asked that they include this blog’s address at the end of the letter, so their readers could see the full text. They declined. The Miami Herald also ran the Jackson column, and also declined to run our response. Fortunately, our blogs give us a chance to give you the full story, from our point of view, and expand the debate beyond the Globe’s op/ed page. Let us know what you think.)

By Steven J. Harris
Vice President, Global Communications

If Derrick Jackson truly believes that you can learn “everything you need to know about American automakers” by reading four newspaper clippings, perhaps he should consider another line of work. That kind of half-baked research leads to half-baked columns, like the one The Boston Globe published Sept. 2.

General Motors is working hard to build a stronger America that’s less dependent on oil, and we’re making significant progress. What we don’t appreciate is the kind of cynical propaganda that Mr. Jackson has engaged in recently, which seeks to portray Detroit automakers as buffoons and our Japanese competitors as flawless. It’s almost as if he wants the U.S. auto industry to fail. Why?

We agree with him that this nation needs to reduce its dependence on oil. GM is doing as much or more than any automaker to address this issue, from making our gasoline engines more fuel-efficient with new technologies, to producing cars and trucks that can run on ethanol-based fuel, to investing heavily in hybrid and fuel-cell powertrains.

GM also is well-positioned for the shift to more fuel-efficient cars and crossover vehicles. In fact, GM offers more vehicles that are EPA-rated at 30 mpg or better on the highway than any other automaker. More than Toyota, Honda or Nissan.

So far this year, Americans have bought more than 865,000 of our 30-mpg-or-better cars. Our new full-size SUVs that Mr. Jackson disparages also are selling well, in part because they have better EPA highway-mileage estimates than any of the competing SUVs offered by Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes-Benz, Lexus and Ford.

Here are some other pertinent facts that Mr. Jackson chose to ignore:

Last year’s top-selling subcompact was the fuel-stingy Chevy Aveo, and an all-new ’07 Aveo sedan has just debuted. Honda and Nissan just recently entered this growing segment, and Toyota just re-entered it after pulling its previous entry out of the U.S. market due to poor sales.
The recently introduced Saturn Vue Green Line hybrid offers the best highway fuel economy of any SUV (EPA rated at 32 mpg) at a price significantly less than its hybrid competitors. The Vue is one of a dozen hybrid vehicles that GM will launch in the next few years.
GM has put 478 GM-powered hybrid public transit buses on the streets of 39 cities in the United States and Canada over the past few years. They’re saving thousands of gallons of fuel every week.
GM recently announced a new V-8 turbo-diesel engine that will improve engine fuel efficiency by 25 percent for our future light duty trucks sold in North America.
GM is investing heavily in the one technology that promises to end our dependence on oil forever: fuel cells. We’ve made incredible progress in driving down the cost of this technology to make it practical. We just announced plans to build and deploy a demonstration fleet of more than 100 Chevrolet Equinox fuel cell vehicles starting in fall 2007.
GM has put more than 2 million vehicles on the road that are capable of running on E85, and is working with distributors and government to increase the number of service stations that offer this ethanol-based alternative fuel.
Toyota’s growth in the United States over the past decade has come primarily from expanding its vehicle lineup into the pickup and SUV segments that Mr. Jackson finds so offensive. In many of those segments, Toyota’s offerings get worse mileage than GM’s. Toyota also is building a new plant in Texas to build more full-size pickups, not more hybrids.
The new Chevy Camaro will join the Ford Mustang and Dodge Challenger in the well-established performance car segment. As much as Mr. Jackson may find no appeal in a stylish, high-performance coupe, millions of Americans do and have passionately urged GM to bring back the Camaro. We would be foolish not to meet that demand. By the way, Honda and Toyota apparently agree: Both Japanese automakers reportedly are working on their own high-performance sports cars for the U.S. market.
Mercedes-Benz, Toyota, Lexus, Nissan and Land Rover also offer full-size or large luxury SUVs. They do so because there’s significant demand and these are some of the most profitable vehicles in the U.S. market. For those with large families and a boat or trailer to tow, the Chevy Suburban is practical option. You can’t tow a boat or haul a family of six with its camping gear in a Toyota Prius.
Ultimately, consumers decide what they will buy based on their own calculation of their needs, desires and budgets.

For those who want fuel-efficient small cars, GM offers them. For those who have a need for a full-size SUV and want the one that has the best fuel economy and can run on E85, we offer those. For those looking for a hybrid, we’ve got those, too.

If all Mr. Jackson is seeing from Detroit are “metallic mastodons,” perhaps he ought to get out of his office and visit a GM dealership. Or at least read more than four articles. He might find it enlightening.

People can be swayed by the media. But I believe that usually this is only possible if some personal experience makes them pay attention to what the media are saying.

Specifically, people who've only had good experiences with domestic products probably pay no attention to what the media say about them. It's those who've had bad experiences that are then open to having the media reinforce their perceptions.

Of course, the tricky bit is that these personal experiences might have been 10-20 years ago. Or not.

Even Consumer Reports will give credit to an American company when their data support doing so. However, the only American company currently receiving that credit is Ford.

GM appears to still rely heavily on the first half year of production to sort out many bugs. In my data, the 2009 Lambdas have half the repair rate of the 2008s. I strongly suspect we're going to see the same with the 2009 vs. 2008 CTS. And the 2009 vs. 2008 Saturn VUE. And so forth.

Of course, other companies sometimes have rough launches. The first half-year of Camry V6 production has a high repair rate. But that's the exception with many other companies, not the rule.

I talk to other GM techs all accross the country every day. While my opinion may be skewed, it isn't based on just what is happening inside the beltway.
In fact a couple of the members of our forum are in other countries.

I'd agree nothing is "simple" about understanding quality and durability, there are too many factors even from car to car to really get any sort of accurate statisitics.
I see cars all the time that have been to 3 other dealers for the same problem and I fix it. Does that mean it had 4 problems? No, it means it had 3 failed attempts at repair and one successful one. Is that GM's fault? No it is the fault of the techs that don't know what they are doing.
All the magazines and news media base their opinions on faulty data and then force it down our throats.
I see more people buying cars based on what the news and TV commercials tell them than I see people analyzing vehicle features and statistics.
While people like you and I might be smart shoppers and know what to look for, MOST people don't. They rely on the tripe they hear in the media to make their decision for them because they are busy living their lives or worrying about what their car looks like and how big their wheels are rather than worrying about whether or not the car actually drives okay and is reliable.

My opinion.... ;)
As I always say, take it for what it is worth.

Not saying Cadillac is better than another carmaker's product, just saying it is pretty much even with anything else on the market class for class.
The biggest problem in this industry is that people look at us technicians, and more specifically dealer technicians, as crooks instead of the rocket scientists that we have to be to do the job right these days.
In fact "rocket scientists" don't usually need to know as much as we do.
:lol:
The pay is far below the technical skill level required for what we do, nobody has a problem paying a plumber whatever he wants to fix a toilet.
Most plumbers know 2 things, hot on the left and S*** goes downhill.
We have to know a heckuva lot more than that to keep our customers happy and then listen to people complain about how much they have to pay for REAL skill.
Add to that the flat rate pay system most of us are up against and the decreasing quality in the information we reference to fix these rolling computers.
It gets more complicated and I don't want to get into it.

I can't speak for sales and service statistics for any make, but our store seems to be doing pretty darn well in this market.
I hear stories every day of another dealer shutting down or cutting back but we provide something most places don't.
I like to call it "Customer Service". ;)

Thanks for your comments. I always appreciate hearing a different viewpoint. :D
(even if I disagree)

Southern,
Thanks for posting this. Great article that touches on my firm belief that hydrogen is our country's future. Hurdles remain, but if we make a commitment to this technology it will not only reduce our dependence on foreign oil, it will bring down the price of oil.
Mkaresh,
Giving any credit to Consumer Reports is a reach. I have to laugh when they tout themselves as "unbiased".

Mkaresh,
Giving any credit to Consumer Reports is a reach. I have to laugh when they tout themselves as "unbiased".

My own analysis of CR suggests that their problems stem more from being slow and sloppy than bias.

Ewill3rd,
Just read your post and want to say that guys with your attitude will make for satisfied customers. You have the perfect approach to what customer service is all about. I have a Cadillac dealer 9 miles from where I live, and I elected to travel 75 miles away to a dealer that has a sales and service commitment that I can respect. Unfortunately a substandard dealer can make vehicle ownership a burden.

"Southern,
Thanks for posting this. Great article ....."


Just an example of BLATANT bias in the media against American Iron and the refusals to even allow a different viewpoint.

I talk to other GM techs all accross the country every day. While my opinion may be skewed, it isn't based on just what is happening inside the beltway.
In fact a couple of the members of our forum are in other countries.

I'd agree nothing is "simple" about understanding quality and durability, there are too many factors even from car to car to really get any sort of accurate statisitics.
I see cars all the time that have been to 3 other dealers for the same problem and I fix it. Does that mean it had 4 problems? No, it means it had 3 failed attempts at repair and one successful one. Is that GM's fault? No it is the fault of the techs that don't know what they are doing.
All the magazines and news media base their opinions on faulty data and then force it down our throats.
I see more people buying cars based on what the news and TV commercials tell them than I see people analyzing vehicle features and statistics.
While people like you and I might be smart shoppers and know what to look for, MOST people don't. They rely on the tripe they hear in the media to make their decision for them because they are busy living their lives or worrying about what their car looks like and how big their wheels are rather than worrying about whether or not the car actually drives okay and is reliable.

My opinion.... ;)
As I always say, take it for what it is worth.

Not saying Cadillac is better than another carmaker's product, just saying it is pretty much even with anything else on the market class for class.
The biggest problem in this industry is that people look at us technicians, and more specifically dealer technicians, as crooks instead of the rocket scientists that we have to be to do the job right these days.
In fact "rocket scientists" don't usually need to know as much as we do.
:lol:
The pay is far below the technical skill level required for what we do, nobody has a problem paying a plumber whatever he wants to fix a toilet.
Most plumbers know 2 things, hot on the left and S*** goes downhill.
We have to know a heckuva lot more than that to keep our customers happy and then listen to people complain about how much they have to pay for REAL skill.
Add to that the flat rate pay system most of us are up against and the decreasing quality in the information we reference to fix these rolling computers.
It gets more complicated and I don't want to get into it.

I can't speak for sales and service statistics for any make, but our store seems to be doing pretty darn well in this market.
I hear stories every day of another dealer shutting down or cutting back but we provide something most places don't.
I like to call it "Customer Service". ;)

Thanks for your comments. I always appreciate hearing a different viewpoint. :D
(even if I disagree)

I thoroughly enjoyed reading this post. Very insightful. I'm sure we'd all learn a lot from spending a day in a repair shop, seeing what techs have to deal with.

As for the incompetence leading to repeated repair trips...this is why I only include successfully completed repairs in the current analysis. As much as it would be good to know which cars tend to be hardest to fix right the first time, I want to separate product issues from tech training / competence issues.

I should make clear is that most problems with cars five or fewer years old are minor. With the 2008 CTS, we're seeing mostly NVH and trim issues rather than major mechanical.

To give one example, a few people have reported that their exhaust was lowered a fraction of an inch to fix a vibration. Not a huge problem. But something GM should have caught during development.

A final bit about my research: I update promptly four times a year. So if there is improvement, it shows up in the results quickly, not a year or more later (as it does in CR or JD Power). Returning to the Lambdas, I was able to report a much lower repair rate for the 2008s only a few months after reporting a moderately high repair rate for the 2007s. In quite a few cases I've seen repair rates fall during a model year, especially with first-year models. The 2006 Honda Civic and 2007 Nissan Versa were two examples from Japanese manufacturers.

Vehicle reliability research (http://www.truedelta.com/reliability.php)

To give one example, a few people have reported that their exhaust was lowered a fraction of an inch to fix a vibration. Not a huge problem. But something GM should have caught during development.

If something sounds too good to be true . . .
TSB that you mentioned (adjust exhaust hanger brackets) did not remedy the vibration problem with my CTS. GM has instructed my dealer to try strapping weights to the exhaust system. We'll see.

Thanks guys, I love to have discussions :D
Even if I am wrong. Heck I have things to learn too.

It is a crazy business let me tell you.
Some of the best techs in the country that I know are leaving, some not by choice.

As long as I have customers that respect my efforts, I'll keep giving it my best.
Believe it or not this forum gives me hope, there are actually people here that appreciate a little help now and then and know how to say thank you.
A lot of other smart helpful guys on here too.
Even though I don't make any money helping out here, it sure is nice to lend a little advice and feel genuinely appreciated. I wish I could make my wages here! A pretty nice environment to work in and I actually get to talk directly to the customers!

Actually several of my customers I always take time to talk to. I get pretty busy so I can't always do it, but I try.

It is just too complicated of an industry to make sweeping comments about, even for me!
Sometimes I say things that are not 100%, and I actually appreciate it when people remind me.

There are lots of guys out there that feel the way I do, we are just hard to find.
The flat rate pay system and the complexity of the vehicles is just too overwhelming for most guys these days.
I can make it work for me because I have a great boss that knows how to take good care of me and I have a lot of technical training.
Kudos to James!

Oops... I am babbling!

I have a friend out in Utah who was a mechanic at a BMW dealer. Then he tried sales. But he's a bit too much of a straight shooter for that. Then he went to work again as a mechanic, for one of his friends.

Finally, he did what I'd been telling him he should do, and bought his own shop. And he's been doing very well with it.

I think that's how you break free of the flat rate system. Except now he doesn't work on the cars himself much and is sometimes bored out of his skin.

Ewill, Obviously the quality issue isn't THAT bad, since you are writing these essay's during work hours.
If GM product is the POS's that everyone is insinuating here, you would be too busy repairing cars instead of posting these mini novels on company time.

just kidding............

My father in law wanted to invest in my starting my own business. I don't want the hassle of all the regulations, overhead, crappy employees and angry customers yelling at me.
I am one of those weirdos that is content to do what I do best and be content as long as my bills are paid.

I like to mentor kids coming into the business and we have a few that I have worked with that have turned out to be pretty good techs. It is a crazy business I'll tell you that.
I like to keep my hands on the product and stay fresh, even though I forget a lot of stuff.
It changes so fast.

GMJim, just don't tell my boss! (even though he comes on here!) :lol:
He's pretty cool about the forums but sometimes I'd rather be on here than working on some of the nightmares I have to deal with!