: Northstar Rant



AJxtcman
04-10-08, 08:00 PM
:D

This is to all the Northstar haters

First Gen engines had some problem.
Second Gens had less
The third Gen less say the RWD version had less
The fourth Gen 06+ FWD had even less

At the dealership I work at we reseal case halve I would say about 5 to 1 over head gaskets!
Yeah the head Gaskets are not the most common expensive fix. :mad2:
See the thing is people will just add oil and not even think about it. I pull some cars in and they leave a huge puddle. Maybe 1 or 2 a year are that way. Adding coolant does not have the same efect

I have only seen a few bottom end failures. I was just talking about this at work last week. The other tech were acting like I was loony. :cookoo:
Yeah I have seen a few people bottom out the oil pan on something and keep driving! That is the only bottom end failures we see

If you buy a 2008 Northstar you are getting an engine that has many updates from the 1993 version. If you buy a 2008 SBC in an Imp SS it is not the same as the 1993 SBC. If it was then a 2008 Imp SS would be junk!

Take a look at a 1993 STS (top of the line) and compare it to a 2008 CTS (base model)

AJxtcman
04-10-08, 08:19 PM
They had a problem with cam and lifter they fixed in in 2000

The had some head gaskets concerns. They tried a fix in 2000 and then they stepped it up again in 2004.

They had a Crank sensor problem They fixed that in 2006

GM has been on top of this engine.
Back in 1993 to 1999 the length of time that it took to go from concept to production was a lot longer than it was in 2006 or today. Just look at that 2008 CTS.

Like I have said before it is part of the on going evolution. :horse:

IMSAnorthstar
04-10-08, 10:20 PM
So it sounds like most all of the problems have been worked out with the Northstar now ? ..... Too Bad, because that invariably signals the end of a product line :yup: then the engine that replaces it goes through the same process all over again. makes NO sence to me.

In

Destroyer
04-10-08, 11:10 PM
GM has been on top of this engine.
They had to be, they shit it out didn't they?

lenny lincoln
04-10-08, 11:58 PM
Watch it ! watch what you say about the death star, you may be banned or limited on posting here. Some of the family secrets should not be talked about. :bigroll: The cadillac North star is the best car motor to own:thumbsup:

AlBundy
04-11-08, 12:23 AM
They had to be, they shit it out didn't they?

I see your one of those "I'd love to have one but I'm afraid to purchase one" type of guys. There's nothing wrong with that but do you believe the problem was solved in the 2000+ design?:eek::alchi:

Submariner409
04-11-08, 12:29 AM
You're quite mistaken, Destroyer and lenny.

There aren't any family secrets, much the opposite. 99% of the questions and posts arriving in CF are taken at face value and answered to the best of a lot of abilities. Sometimes answered completely, sometimes more on the advice and recommendation side of the coin. The Northstar, as in every other automobile engine ever designed, has its share of bugaboos and idiosyncrasies. That's why we're all here. To find out how, why, when and to trade fixes. Amateurs and professionals, all on the same field. That's the beauty of CF.

It's the other 1%, the flaming idiots, agitators, and "I love ME" squatters that throw up smoke and mirrors and harm other's learning and troubleshooting efforts.

Ask yourself "Where do I fit in here.....?".

dkozloski
04-11-08, 12:57 AM
I don't know how many times in my life I've encountered people who were not smart enough to understand the inner workings of a device and therefore had more trouble with it than the next guy. Their solution was not to improve their own knowledge and skills to the required level but to criticize and belittle the article in question. In the end everybody else could recognize them for the losers they were and enjoy a lot of insiders laughs at their expense. Some people come to CF to enhance their Cadillac experience, others to wallow in their sour grapes.

lenny lincoln
04-11-08, 01:18 AM
Sub, what percent of post here over the years have been about NS leaking or over heating? enough said, doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure the crazy idiosyncracies of the north stars here. And Dkoz, I know all about the workings of many "inner workings of a device's " both human and mechanical. I am a life long mechanic and a trained human Doctor. And I understand that if you buy a North star you will have to replace the head gaskets or reseal the cases to a tune of $3500 or do it yourself , I have the tools and capabilities. But I dont think Any state of the art motor that is SO great should require that much attention. If I wanted to stand out and expect such high maintance cost I would of bought a exotic car. Hell even heavily tromped on at every light Corvettes last longer than these moving couches and still out resale them.

dkozloski
04-11-08, 01:29 AM
Sub, what percent of post here over the years have been about NS leaking or over heating? enough said, doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure the crazy idiosyncracies of the north stars here. And Dkoz, I know all about the workings of many "inner workings of a device's " both human and mechanical. I am a life long mechanic and a trained human Doctor. And I understand that if you buy a North star you will have to replace the head gaskets or reseal the cases to a tune of $3500 or do it yourself , I have the tools and capabilities. But I dont think Any state of the art motor that is SO great should require that much attention. If I wanted to stand out and expect such high maintance cost I would of bought a exotic car. Hell even heavily tromped on at every light Corvettes last longer than these moving couches and still out resale them.
Please tell us what you hope to accomplish hanging around here. If I'd wanted to own a sheet metal pachyderm I'd have bought a Lincoln. If you're really a doctor, surely you remember your pledge to first do no harm. I'm sorry to tell you that you're giving everybody here a pain in the ass.

At least the Northstar problems are all fixable. The only thing you can do for a Lincoln is two aspirins and lots of rest. It'll always be sick.

What do you call a Lincoln in the car crusher?
A mercy killing.

lenny lincoln
04-11-08, 01:50 AM
To do no harm is to inform the unfortunate. You can pump up all the owners you want owning a 06 with a warranty. You dont have to get your fingers wet. But you can talk a good talk and tell the family that buys a 2000 Ns that it will be a good reliable vehicle for them and they can finance it at 7.5% and not to worry. I can suggest a lincoln purchase and not worry can you? Pachyderm Lincoln, Why mess with a good thing? If you want to be different why not wear your underwear on your head? because you'd appear stupid. I feel that after conversing with the authority here for the last week that most of you wear your underwear on your heads.:histeric:

dkozloski
04-11-08, 02:24 AM
To do no harm is to inform the unfortunate. You can pump up all the owners you want owning a 06 with a warranty. You dont have to get your fingers wet. But you can talk a good talk and tell the family that buys a 2000 Ns that it will be a good reliable vehicle for them and they can finance it at 7.5% and not to worry. I can suggest a lincoln purchase and not worry can you? Pachyderm Lincoln, Why mess with a good thing? If you want to be different why not wear your underwear on your head? because you'd appear stupid. I feel that after conversing with the authority here for the last week that most of you wear your underwear on your heads.:histeric:
The problem with that is that if you always buy second, best never in your lifetime will you ever own anything worth a damn. It is better to have loved your Caddy and lost than to never have experienced it at all. With a Lincoln you have five paper bags over your head in case the first four break. You're treated like you have Hanson's disease. You're an object of pity.

dkozloski
04-11-08, 03:40 AM
Lenny, are you sure you're a doctor? The only doctors I know that own Lincolns are proctologists.

Logandiagnostic
04-11-08, 05:41 AM
AJ....watch out.

Be very careful of what, when, why you post.

GM does monitor these sites.

I'm a 27 year GM employee. I have been personally talked to about intenet postings by GM people systems.

I am UAW. So I am protected. U are dealership. Watch out. They could drop u like heartbeat.

Destroyer
04-11-08, 08:00 AM
I see your one of those "I'd love to have one but I'm afraid to purchase one" type of guys. There's nothing wrong with that but do you believe the problem was solved in the 2000+ design?:eek::alchi:No, no, no. I had a '98 Deville and had all sorts of problems in the 10k miles I owned it (88k-98k). I let it go after the HG's went and I'm glad I did. My good friend and business partner had an '01 which also had the HG's go. He actually paid $4200 for the repair and then traded it in and got $6k. He should have just sold it needing the repairs or kept it after that but whatever. Bottom line is he just didn't trust the car after all the grief it gave him since owning it and he didn't want his wife driving it either. Everything from shaking on the highway, to ABS problems and loose trim inside to head gaskets and motor mounts and his had around 70k when he got rid of it. The car disgusted him as my '98 disgusted me. Never knew about pellets or purge lines or timeserts and all that before owning that car.

Destroyer
04-11-08, 08:03 AM
The problem with that is that if you always buy second, best never in your lifetime will you ever own anything worth a damn. It is better to have loved your Caddy and lost than to never have experienced it at all. With a Lincoln you have five paper bags over your head in case the first four break. You're treated like you have Hanson's disease. You're an object of pity.Its these darn N* Caddy's that have led many of us American luxury car owners over to the Lincolns.

AJxtcman
04-11-08, 08:10 AM
AJ....watch out.

Be very careful of what, when, why you post.

GM does monitor these sites.

I'm a 27 year GM employee. I have been personally talked to about intenet postings by GM people systems.

I am UAW. So I am protected. U are dealership. Watch out. They could drop u like heartbeat.

I walk the line, but I have a trump card, but I can't use it up.

AJxtcman
04-11-08, 08:44 AM
This is not a pissing match between two brands. :rant2:

I am just saying that just about anything you could think about ranting about GM has fixed

Lets just say a 1996 to 2003 FWD Cadillac ran between $40K and $55K NEW

Lets compare that to a 1996 to 2003 Cavalier that ran between $13K to $20K NEW

Lets figure on the high side $4000 repair on a $47K (midrange) new car value. That is less than 10%

Ok now on the Cavalier. A 2.2L LN2 head gasket will about $800 to $1000
On the high side again that $1000 on a $13k new car value.
Head gasket on a Quad 4 you can add another $500 to a $1000.

I was using NEW value numbers.

Lets just say you have a 97 Cavalier with a midrange value of $2000 and the $1000 dollar head gasket repair. This is 1/2 the value for 1/4 the car

Now lets look at a 1997 Deville $3900 midrange value. Head gasket repair $3500. :thumbsup:

Is That The Problem?

I am over here trying to raise the value of your Cadillacs!
Think about IT!

If your are driving an old POS Cadillac you have a POS. If you have taken care of your Cadillac and it is in Great shape it is not a POS. The value is worth more. Say $7000 for that 1997. Hmmmm :hmm: that would be 1/2 the value to do head gaskets. :hmm:

If you drive a 1997 Cavalier into the ground it will be worth $500 and a $1000 repair:stirpot:

AJxtcman
04-11-08, 09:05 AM
Now I will compare it to the 4100 engine family
Yeah it is a Family. 4100, 4500, 4900, all junk :want:

Those guy's think they have something over a Northstar :histeric:

Ok I work with some older guy's and can they tell the stories.


Just this week they were talking about on customer that had 4 4100 installed in less than 45K miles. The customer would say go ahead. Then our conversation switched to Mopar trany's. I won't post any more about that band, because I want this all GM. Apples to apples!:thumbsup:

The 4100 to 4.9L blow head gaskets. They don't have a Timesert :o They have to use Helicoils :suspense: yeah like they hold.

They leak oil, the water pumps fail, Intake gasket go, and the main bearing go out all the time!:thumbsup:

Try to pry $2k out of a guy with a $500 1987 Deville :stirpot:

AJxtcman
04-11-08, 09:09 AM
Remember guy's any thing I post is all about me, so this is all about my pocket book! :mad2:

Step up guy's drop the cash!
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/smilies/av-192_5.gif


keep your car in pristine shape! :yup:

urbanski
04-11-08, 10:40 AM
haha i am adding that smilie

AJxtcman
04-11-08, 11:30 AM
I just pulled in a 2008 CTS with 2314 miles on it. A lady owns the car. The drivers side rear door has 5 dents in it all of them are above the door handle line and just behind the drivers door. Purse maybe? This is an 2008 CTS and the customer is beating it up already. Has I will get the body shop to do an estimate and I will find out if it is a LEASED car. I will get back with the estimate

AlBundy
04-11-08, 12:38 PM
haha i am adding that smilie

What will you call it?

urbanski
04-11-08, 12:39 PM
probably :aj: haha

AJxtcman
04-11-08, 12:54 PM
I just pulled in a 2008 CTS with 2314 miles on it. A lady owns the car. The drivers side rear door has 5 dents in it all of them are above the door handle line and just behind the drivers door. Purse maybe? This is an 2008 CTS and the customer is beating it up already. Has I will get the body shop to do an estimate and I will find out if it is a LEASED car. I will get back with the estimate

$1600 on the dent removal.:tisk:

AJxtcman
04-11-08, 12:56 PM
probably :aj: haha

I have poured gas on myself and found an ignition source. :cookoo:

Long story, but I am OK. The car needed a paint job

AJxtcman
04-11-08, 01:27 PM
This is Northstar Performance and Technical Discussion Performance discussions relating to the Northstar System (intake, exhaust, cam, etc.).

Not crying about lack of maintenance!:thumbsup:

AMGoff
04-11-08, 03:55 PM
My goodness... I just pulled another rant on the asshat Lincoln and I didn't even see this...

I'm torn as to whether he's a real doctor or not... On one hand, I say no... because there's more than enough evidence to show that he can't read... or better yet, only chooses to read certain lines. I think AJ was more than clear in what he was saying. And I'm sick and tired of hearing that every Northstar is going to have headgasket problems... how is it even remotely possible to make that extrapolation?

Some first gen Northstars had their problems.

Less second gen Northstars had problems.

Even less third and fourth gen Northstars have problems.

Pretty easy to understand, huh? Do we need to go through all of the various calamities and evolutionary fixes the Ford modular engine has gone through? Hmmm...? No... because we already know them. This has gone from sad to pathetic.

Purposeful trolls should have no place on CF.

dkozloski
04-11-08, 04:33 PM
My goodness... I just pulled another rant on the asshat Lincoln and I didn't even see this...

I'm torn as to whether he's a real doctor or not... On one hand, I say no... because there's more than enough evidence to show that he can't read... or better yet, only chooses to read certain lines. I think AJ was more than clear in what he was saying. And I'm sick and tired of hearing that every Northstar is going to have headgasket problems... how is it even remotely possible to make that extrapolation?

Some first gen Northstars had their problems.

Less second gen Northstars had problems.

Even less third and fourth gen Northstars have problems.

Pretty easy to understand, huh? Do we need to go through all of the various calamities and evolutionary fixes the Ford modular engine has gone through? Hmmm...? No... because we already know them. This has gone from sad to pathetic.

Purposeful trolls should have no place on CF.
I agree completely. He's looking for a fight any way he can get it.

Ur7x
04-11-08, 05:26 PM
My goodness... I just pulled another rant on the asshat Lincoln and I didn't even see this...

I'm torn as to whether he's a real doctor or not... On one hand, I say no... because there's more than enough evidence to show that he can't read... or better yet, only chooses to read certain lines. I think AJ was more than clear in what he was saying. And I'm sick and tired of hearing that every Northstar is going to have head gasket problems... how is it even remotely possible to make that extrapolation?

Some first gen Northstars had their problems.

Less second gen Northstars had problems.

Even less third and fourth gen Northstars have problems.

Pretty easy to understand, huh? Do we need to go through all of the various calamities and evolutionary fixes the Ford modular engine has gone through? Hmmm...? No... because we already know them. This has gone from sad to pathetic.

Purposeful trolls should have no place on CF.

If he is a Doctor I would wonder how much he pays in malpractice insurance.

There have been several polls on this and other forums that nicely document that North* head gasket failure rates are less then 5% of all vehicles and that ~70% of the failures will occur in model years 97/98/99. This means that if you drive a 93-96 or a 2000-2003 the chance of head gasket failure is 9/10ths of 1 percent. LOW! And yet this troll still talks about issues with 2000's That's one of the better ones... DO YOUR HOMEWORK!

BTW The 97-99 issue is NOT a secret and has been widely discussed and documented. I bought my 2002 will FULL knowledge of Northstar issues
Google "Northstar" and "problem" and its right there at the top of the list. Better yet I REFUSED an extended warranty with the knowledge of the head gaskets issue... Have I regretted my purchase or my refusal of the extended warranty... NOT ONE BIT!

I would also like to add that the only car that I had a head gasket fail on was a FORD motor product.

dkozloski
04-11-08, 05:42 PM
If he is a Doctor I would wonder how much he pays in malpractice insurance.

There have been several polls on this and other forums that nicely document that North* head gasket failure rates are less then 5% of all vehicles and that ~70% of the failures will occur in model years 97/98/99. This means that if you drive a 93-96 or a 2000-2003 the chance of head gasket failure is 9/10ths of 1 percent. LOW! And yet this troll still talks about issues with 2000's That's one of the better ones... DO YOUR HOMEWORK!

BTW The 97-99 issue is NOT a secret and has been widely discussed and documented. I bought my 2002 will FULL knowledge of Northstar issues
Google "Northstar" and "problem" and its right there at the top of the list. Better yet I REFUSED an extended warranty with the knowledge of the head gaskets issue... Have I regretted my purchase or my refusal of the extended warranty... NOT ONE BIT!

I would also like to add that the only car that I had a head gasket fail on was a FORD motor product.
Anybody that drove flathead Fords for any length of time, sooner or later, came up against a cracked block. The crack would start across an exhaust valve seat and continue down the cylinder until it hit water. It didn't matter if it was a straight six or a V8, they still cracked. Clear back in the fifties it was starting to get hard to find good flathead Ford blocks.

chubbyranger
04-11-08, 08:07 PM
A read through history tells the story. The reason Lincolns exist is because Ford needed something to compete with Cadillac. They have never exceeded, only pursued. Anyone can see the relationship between a Lincoln and a Ford - a Town Car is a re-trimmed Grand Marquis is an upscale Crown Vic. A Cadillac is a separate car (OK - we won't discuss Cimarron here - wrong forum) from its corporate siblings. Nobody cornered the perfect engineering market so it comes down to what you like to drive.

Submariner409
04-11-08, 08:08 PM
but, dkoz, you gotta admit that few engines, even today, look as good as a '49 Flathead with trip deuces, Edelbrock finned heads, all chromed acorn nuts and a transparent distributor cap sticking out the front.

I had completely forgotten the exhaust seat cracks until now. Talk about deja' vu

dkozloski
04-11-08, 08:46 PM
The part about flathead Fords I remember is having all those acorn nuts off and you still couldn't get the heads off because they were corroded so heavily around the studs. We even started them to try to blow the heads lose.

AJxtcman
04-11-08, 08:59 PM
You know just about every third topic is someone whining about a head gasket.

I am whining about not getting paid to do cooling system maintenance.

Ranger
04-11-08, 09:29 PM
Lenny Lincoln & Destroyer seem to be here for one reason. To bash Cadillacs and start arguments. Everyone seems to know it, but they throw out the bait and yet everyone takes it. It never ceases to amaze me.

AJxtcman
04-11-08, 09:42 PM
This is Northstar Performance and Technical Discussion Performance discussions relating to the Northstar System (intake, exhaust, cam, etc.).

Not crying about lack of maintenance!:thumbsup:


You know just about every third topic is someone whining about a head gasket.

I am whining about not getting paid to do cooling system maintenance.

http://dexcoolsettlement.com/

Destroyer
04-11-08, 10:15 PM
Lenny Lincoln & Destroyer seem to be here for one reason. To bash Cadillacs and start arguments. Everyone seems to know it, but they throw out the bait and yet everyone takes it. It never ceases to amaze me.Not true, not bashing ALL Cadillacs and I'm no proponent of Lincolns either. You are right about overdoing it though, I'll stop, sorry. :(

dkozloski
04-11-08, 10:33 PM
Not true, not bashing ALL Cadillacs and I'm no proponent of Lincolns either. You are right about overdoing it though, I'll stop, sorry. :(
Welcome to the club. I've been accused of shooting my mouth off and still do from time to time. Sometime we need to be reminded that nobody here is the center of attention all the time.

AlBundy
04-11-08, 10:41 PM
Not true, not bashing ALL Cadillacs and I'm no proponent of Lincolns either. You are right about overdoing it though, I'll stop, sorry. :(

I'll remove you from the douche list.:canttalk::eek::thumbsup::alchi:

AMGoff
04-12-08, 12:36 AM
Destroyer isn't so bad... he brings insight and different perspectives to a wide range of discussions around the forum.

Lenny Lincoln on the other hand... is an absolute troll, plain and simple. He only has one motive and I highly doubt we would get even a modicum of humility from him.

minnesotamom
04-12-08, 01:16 AM
My 4.6 Northstar has never ever overheated. Ever. And I'll be turning over 170,000 miles sometime in the next week. No sign yet of "premature" head gasket failure. Wish I could say the same for the Ford's I've owned. Of course, they also needed transmissions about as often as I added washer fluid...so bad head gaskets seemed kind of minor.
Perhaps people who hate them so much should go over to Yahoo groups and start their own "I hate Northstars"..or "I hate Cadillacs" group. Then they could happily bitch all they want.
Of course, if the point isn't so much to bitch but to agitate people..that really wouldn't do them much good, would it?...And in that case I would recommend woodworking or maybe jigsaw puzzles as a more productive pasttime

AMGoff
04-12-08, 01:38 AM
MN-momma - I like you style... kudos :thumbsup:

You obviously get it... some others don't and somehow think they're providing some sort of useful service, but that's only because they can't see past their own biased agenda. You're just another one of countless examples of a first-gen Northstar which has performed both admirably and beautifully over the years... but then again, that puts you in the majority and not the minority as some would attempt to lead us to believe.

And more amazingly, you should mark this down in your calendar, because you're witnessing one of those rare occasions where Koz and I are actually on the same page with something... it might not happen often, but overall our spirits are kindred for the Greater Cadillac Good!

However... I doubt Mr. Trolly von Lincoln will respond again, I think he may have finally struck out. Which is a shame because he's yet to respond to any of the counterpoints thrown out there to rebut his claims of Lincoln superiority... he's constantly dodged any meaningful points, danced around the subject, and done nothing but thrown more gas on the fire.... which actually leads me to believe, if nothing else, he's really a politician - and either a really good one or a really bad one (depending on which way one looks at it!)

minnesotamom
04-12-08, 01:51 AM
OK..I'm getting out my red pen and my calender..

"Trolly Von Lincoln"...too funny. I'm getting this picture in my head of a spiky-purple-haired, glassy eyed orangey little man behind the wheel of a big powder blue Lincoln...

AMGoff
04-12-08, 02:28 AM
I'm getting this picture in my head of a spiky-purple-haired, glassy eyed orangey little man behind the wheel of a big powder blue Lincoln...

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2351/2406361069_fefe89c571_o.jpg

minnesotamom
04-12-08, 09:05 AM
LOL...what a great way to start my morning!

Almost exactly what I pictured!

Submariner409
04-12-08, 10:29 AM
Wrong picture: Because Lincolns look like upside-down Dove bars, they're supposed to be white.

tateos
04-12-08, 11:59 AM
I agree with both sides on this one.

It IS ridiculous to have common head gasket failures on an engine that has not been abused or subjected to extreme conditions or poor maintenance; I have had two different '97 N*s blow HGs and they were both well maintained and not abused. C'mon guys, let admit that's just not right!

On the other hand, no car is perfect, and if you like the car and are able to repair it yourself or pay someone else to do it, it is a perfectly good decision to make. Those of you that read my thread know that I replaced the first N* that blew a HG with a used engine, since at the time I thought it was a fluke. When the 2nd engine blew a HG, I learned about the cause and fix on this forum and fixed the HG myself. I have no regrets with either decision. I like the car ('97 ETC), I have owned it since new, they don't make them anymore, there is no rust or body damage, everything works - why not fix the engine.

In summary, it is a personal decision, maybe even an emotional decision, not necessarily a financial one, and I think we should respect the right of others to make the decision that is the correct one for them.

AJxtcman
04-12-08, 12:51 PM
tateos some members seem to think that the Head Gasket issues are more common up north. This has to do with the heat cycles that I feel are moving the head gasket around and causing it to bunch up in the voids. I am talking about a very very small amount on a day with a large heat cycle change. Say 30° to 225°. That aluminum really grows.

I have been checking for acidic coolant, but I have not found it yet. Now on that thought. In the GM SOLUTIONS™ E-training from Victor Gasket they state that you can not reuses Dex-Cool after it has been allowed to run low in the system and hot! As I have posted GM states that you must replace it and not reuses it when doing engine repairs. GM does not give us a reason. Acid? Maybe.

The crossover gaskets leak is very common and then the coolant may get low and the car may run warmer. The Crossover gasket is similar to the Intake gaskets the GM uses on the V6 cars and truck. This is what the GM SOLUTIONS™ E-training from Victor Gasket is all about.

That leads me to this DexcoolSettlement (http://dexcoolsettlement.com/)

Dex-Cool is not the problem it is the intake gaskets correct?

Hey old guy's what year did GM recall all the aluminum heads off the Corvette's?
They didn't have it right way back then. They came back with the 5 or 6 years later and I think they were ok. I not sure. I wasn't even born yet.

Hey what about the evolution of the Catalytic Converter? If you have 1/2 PSI of back pressure on a car today you will get a misfire! Back in 1975 a GM car was allowed 7 PSI correct? Do you have any idea how much HP and fuel it took to run that Converter? Yes the engine ate more GAS! I think a mid 70's car between running hotter and the back-pressure leaked more oil from the gaskets that the cars from the 30's. Please correct me if I am wrong. Most of the 30's car I have worked on had SBC in them and wee all know if they had a leak they got fixed. Kind of like a Harley.

That is a good point. Harley's. Why is it ok for them to have all of the problems they have?
It come down to $$$$$$$$$$$$$ money.

Northstar's are expensive to fix!:thumbsup:
I would say almost every Honda will or has had a head gasket or CV boot failure. Cost of the repair cheap. Complaints are minimum. Maintenance is at a maximum:thumbsup:

eldorado1
04-12-08, 11:43 PM
That leads me to this DexcoolSettlement (http://dexcoolsettlement.com/)


What's the failure rate on the 93-94's compared to say the 95-96's?

I wonder if only dexcool cars blow head gaskets. Wouldn't that be somethin? Glad I'm running the green stuff...

Ur7x
04-13-08, 02:02 AM
Dexcool might be part of the problem, but I doubt it
If you take another look at the Head gasket year poll...
1993-1996 have ~20% of the reported failures for 4 MYs
1997-1999 have ~70% of the reported failures for 3 MYs and
2000-2003 have ~10% of the reported failures for 4 MYs

Clearly something bad happened in 1997-99 bad castings? bad gaskets? dex?

If it was dex then the problem should be continuing into 2000 and newer cars... And there wouldn't be the DRAMATIC reduction in failures between 99 and 2000.

IMO coolant wasn't the problem...
My bet... bad castings.

eldorado1
04-13-08, 12:59 PM
Dexcool might be part of the problem, but I doubt it
If you take another look at the Head gasket year poll...
1993-1996 have ~20% of the reported failures for 4 MYs
1997-1999 have ~70% of the reported failures for 3 MYs and
2000-2003 have ~10% of the reported failures for 4 MYs

Clearly something bad happened in 1997-99 bad castings? bad gaskets? dex?

If it was dex then the problem should be continuing into 2000 and newer cars... And there wouldn't be the DRAMATIC reduction in failures between 99 and 2000.

IMO coolant wasn't the problem...
My bet... bad castings.

I've seen pictures posted of head bolts being wet with coolant when pulled out. It very well could be a combined problem of bad gasket design and owners not changing their dex frequently enough. 2000's IMHO are too new to suffer from any problems yet. It would be much more interesting to see if 93-94 suffered less than the 95-96 years, since these 4 years are very close together, use the same blocks, heads, gaskets etc.... the only difference is half uses green, half uses dex.

Ur7x
04-13-08, 02:05 PM
2000's IMHO are too new to suffer from any problems yet. It would be much more interesting to see if 93-94 suffered less than the 95-96 years, since these 4 years are very close together, use the same blocks, heads, gaskets etc.... the only difference is half uses green, half uses dex.

True about the 2000 being too new.. but lots of 99's are failing... If it was ONLY the coolant and time you would see a gradual decrease in failures 97->1998 -> 99 ->2000... But we don't we see similar numbers in the "bad three years" ~23% per year and then a drop of ~3% in the better years...

If it was time you should see 2000 at about 10-15% of the problem... and you would get a nice "bell curve" There is another "missing" variable here. Something the GM is not talking about.

AlBundy
04-13-08, 04:30 PM
Do you think it might be a good idea to start another poll listing the pre 2000 N* with no HG repair to compare the info?

Destroyer
04-13-08, 10:30 PM
Dexcool might be part of the problem, but I doubt it
If you take another look at the Head gasket year poll...
1993-1996 have ~20% of the reported failures for 4 MYs
1997-1999 have ~70% of the reported failures for 3 MYs and
2000-2003 have ~10% of the reported failures for 4 MYs

Clearly something bad happened in 1997-99 bad castings? bad gaskets? dex?

If it was dex then the problem should be continuing into 2000 and newer cars... And there wouldn't be the DRAMATIC reduction in failures between 99 and 2000.

IMO coolant wasn't the problem...
My bet... bad castings.I've had GM's with Dex and the only one that sucked real bad was the Deville. My GMC and Chevy conversion vans were just fine as is my '97 S10 w/118k miles.

AJxtcman
04-13-08, 10:47 PM
I've had GM's with Dex and the only one that sucked real bad was the Deville. My GMC and Chevy conversion vans were just fine as is my '97 S10 w/118k miles.

You 97 S10 is in the settlement. I don't feel it is Dex-Cool.

How many 4100 to 4.9L intake gaskets failed? hmm all of them? Most of them for sure.:yawn:

Ur7x
04-13-08, 11:18 PM
How many 4100 to 4.9L intake gaskets failed? hmm all of them? Most of them for sure.:yawn:

pretty much every 4.1s a few Fewer 4.5s and fewer still 4.9 (still lots though) Like N* these engines got better as the years past... I had a 4.5L in my Allante and it never leaked.

I wonder if the 93-96 were heat treated (to strengthen the aluminum) You need to do this if the coolant contains silicates since they are somewhat abrasive to aluminum... I could see GM in 1997 say "non silicate coolant means no heat treatment of the block" and then they all started to fail... Then in 2000 GM made the bolts longer... much better; then in 2004 the fixed it once and for all with super strong LS1 grade bolts (instead of ecotec bolts)

I don't know... but its gotta be something like that. GM will never tell... they would get sued BIG TIME.

Destroyer
04-14-08, 07:48 AM
You 97 S10 is in the settlement. I don't feel it is Dex-Cool.

How many 4100 to 4.9L intake gaskets failed? hmm all of them? Most of them for sure.:yawn:The S10 has a leaking intake manifold, not bad yet but I'll have to tend to it. Pretty much any small block Chevy I've ever had had bad intake gaskets, usually around 80k or so miles). Still, its a job I can do myself and wont cost much.:D

AJxtcman
04-15-08, 08:02 AM
What was GM's Projected Life Cycle of the 1993 to 1999 Northstar?
I am thinking Mileage and Age

Ur7x
04-15-08, 10:35 AM
Do you think it might be a good idea to start another poll listing the pre 2000 N* with no HG repair to compare the info?

Sure. I think "Caddy Info" first did a poll like this and found that over 95% of the cars were problem free... IIRC that was when I first noticed the statistical hump at 97/98/99.. They told me I was nuts and that the hump will move as more coolant gets ignored in newer cars... HA that didn't happen... There was something wrong with the blocks in those MYs

chubbyranger
04-15-08, 09:47 PM
97/98/99.. There was something wrong with the blocks in those MYs

Amen. $3K and counting... :banghead:

Timo1124
04-17-08, 11:01 PM
I guess what I don't understand about the whole dex-cool and other extended coolants, is why did they feel the need to produce a coolant that would last 5 years and 100-150k? Is it really supposed to somehow improve the performance of the engine or just provide better protection as far as freezing and boiling? Not like it's that difficult to do every few years.

I have an '02 STS with 89k I bought a little more than a year ago, and have no idea how the cooling system was maintained. I recently had the dex flushed out and refilled with another extended coolant similar to dex, Peak Lifetime, at the recommendation of my mechanic. The water pump did go on this vehicle about two weeks after I purchased it, so I was able to get it replaced for free under the 30 day warranty. Other than that, I guess I just can't see myself letting my coolant go for 5/100k, I think I will end up replacing it sooner than that.

My father on the other hand has an '02 Chevy 1500 with 150k on it that came with dex that he just recently flushed and refilled with dex. He never had any coolant troubles, and it came out pretty clean. So it will be interesting to see between both of these GM vehicles made in the same year that had dex in them for about 6 years if there will be any problems, especially with the mileage difference in our two vehicles.

Lord Cadillac
04-18-08, 12:26 AM
Hell even heavily tromped on at every light Corvettes last longer than these moving couches and still out resale them.

I don't know how it is everywhere else - but I haven't seen a Corvette race (or even speed) on the street in years. I don't remember the last time I actually saw a Vette going fast outside of a track. More slow Hondas and Toyotas are racing from light to light than Corvettes. So that's a bad example.

Submariner409
04-18-08, 09:29 AM
:stirpot: The people who drive Corvettes, old or new, generally know they own a (relatively) fast car, while the kids who screech around in a ricer econobox think they have a fast car.

(There's a small high school not far from here. It has taken a year or so, but there's not one ricer in the 3:15 outtahere crowd that will even consider jumping my STS at the local traffic light. A friend's granddaughter says I'm referred to as "The old fart in the fast red Cadillac".)

dkozloski
04-18-08, 02:04 PM
:stirpot: The people who drive Corvettes, old or new, generally know they own a (relatively) fast car, while the kids who screech around in a ricer econobox think they have a fast car.

(There's a small high school not far from here. It has taken a year or so, but there's not one ricer in the 3:15 outtahere crowd that will even consider jumping my STS at the local traffic light. A friend's granddaughter says I'm referred to as "The old fart in the fast red Cadillac".)
It's great fun to let them get the jump and then drive around them.

Lord Cadillac
04-18-08, 04:13 PM
It's great fun to let them get the jump and then drive around them.
I used to do it all the time in my 95 ETC. Back then, 0-60 in 6.6 seconds was considered fast. And most riced-up vehicles couldn't do anything near that. I had no idea until years later than the Lexus GS400 did it in 5.9. :o

Submariner409
04-18-08, 05:47 PM
Sal,.........Yep, trouble is there are some scary fast Japanese cars, so you gotta have a good idea what you're up against. I guess that's selective destruction, but most of the drivers of fast cars don't operate in the crazy zone like a lot of ricer kids do. For those in the know, the marque is enough to set the pecking order.

eldorado1
04-18-08, 06:12 PM
A Dodge SRT-4 will cost you $20k and do 0-60 in 5.3 sec.... while carrying your groceries. Fast has come a long way.

Destroyer
04-19-08, 08:34 AM
I don't know how it is everywhere else - but I haven't seen a Corvette race (or even speed) on the street in years. I don't remember the last time I actually saw a Vette going fast outside of a track. More slow Hondas and Toyotas are racing from light to light than Corvettes. So that's a bad example.

Thats how it is here as well. All these Vettes everywhere and all are going slow. Ever peek at whose driving them usually?. Mostly 60++++ year olds, at least here in FL.

Submariner409
04-19-08, 10:50 AM
That's correct, Destroyer: Most of us have learned Theodore Roosevelt's oft-used "Speak softly and carry a big stick".

Destroyer
04-19-08, 11:20 PM
That's correct, Destroyer: Most of us have learned Theodore Roosevelt's oft-used "Speak softly and carry a big stick".Oh, didn't think that was Roosevelts quote, always thought the it was a clever slogan Oldsmobile came up with in the advertisements for the '60's 442. Live and learn.:ill:

I~LUV~Caddys8792
04-20-08, 12:48 AM
I drove a Corvette today.....like a bat out of hell. :lildevil:

Take that society, a Corvette getting driven to it's full extent by someone under 50! Hah!

AJxtcman
05-08-08, 08:33 PM
I have a rant, but I keep forgetting to post it! now I forgot what it was! I hope bumping this will jog my memory

AJxtcman
07-11-08, 11:22 PM
Or Cadillac should just stick a Chevy motor in EVERYTHING they build. Would it have been objectionable to anyone if instead of a Northstar Cadillacs came with LS-X motors?. Even a 5.3 is a damn good motor. The Chevy motors are more reliable, easier to work on and just as smooth. Not only that but think about all the initial development costs and upgrades done to the Northstar, that money saved would also have made Cadillacs more affordable to the customer OR used to upgrade the quality and components used inside/outside the car. GM really could have made these Cadillacs something that people could keep for a lifetime like they used to with the older Cadillacs instead of the fast depreciating disposable shit piles they have become.

The Northstar Has a far superior bottom end design. Think about it! The Crank Case is split in 1/2. The rigidity of the is far more than the LSX. Hey SUB tell these guy about building main girdles to hold the main caps in alignment.

Take a look at the 00+ engine design. Ok we can skip a few years and look at the 04+ because they have better head bolts. Oh yeah they are the same pitch as an LSX.
Wait we better just skip to 06+, because They had 1 crank sensor.

The LSX is a Chevy motor! Think about the way the world looks at Chevy!

Can you imagine a BMW having a Mopar engine in it? Oh wait they do.:eek:
How about a Audi using a little VW engine? Hmm They do. :eek:
Well how about a Lexus with a Toyota engine? Hmm they do also :yawn:

In each case it is the low level, entry level car! Just like a CTS! :stirpot:

How about a Maybach with a Mercedes engine

ryannel2003
07-12-08, 12:06 AM
After 2 weeks with my N* Seville, I adore it. Luckily, my HG already blew and was replaced before I got the car, and it only had 54k miles. Boss said it was most likely for 2 reasons: 1. Old coolant and 2. Being driven by a doctors wife. I bet the car had never even seen a WOT before I got ahold of it. Now, I make it a regular occurrence. :lildevil:

Superjim
07-12-08, 10:06 AM
but, dkoz, you gotta admit that few engines, even today, look as good as a '49 Flathead with trip deuces, Edelbrock finned heads, all chromed acorn nuts and a transparent distributor cap sticking out the front.

I had completely forgotten the exhaust seat cracks until now. Talk about deja' vu


The Trip Deuces had to have either chrome air cleaners or chrome velocity stacks. :cool2:

I hadn't thought about transparent distributor caps in 20 years or more. They did look cool at night. You could see the sparks from the rotor as it turned.

Texas Jim

Submariner409
07-12-08, 10:53 AM
You can still find clear caps for the points style Delco V-8 distributors.

AJ, Knowing full well the work and fitting involved in adding main girdles to Olds 455's I am very aware of how tough the lower end of a Northstar is. I also believe that a bit more design work, (close the open top deck which has minimal sealing surface around the cylinder liners) plus more head bolts to hold a DOHC head, would have prevented the failure rates we see.

AJxtcman
07-12-08, 08:32 PM
I also believe that a bit more design work, (close the open top deck which has minimal sealing surface around the cylinder liners) plus more head bolts to hold a DOHC head, would have prevented the failure rates we see.

I had a 1969 340 car that the had been a drag car. 3" tires and 10.5 on the rear. The car had an incident on the road and both sides of the car became damaged. It was hit by two cars. I was not driving. The engine went into a 77 Volare` that I had put a 383 in and I just needed to finish up the left mount to get it on thr road. Anyway the 340 Dart was bought around 1989 from Hershberger Dodge in Woodburn OR. This was a company drag car. I had NO history on the engine work that had been done to it.
This engine was very strong, but out in SW Washington they can have some elevation changes on the roads. The car gave a couple of pings and it popped a head gsk. I pulled the heads and just milled enough off to clean them up. About a week later the same thing happened on the same hill!
Now I had checked the block and it was good. I worked at a very well know speed shop and my boss said I needed to O-ring the block. Grrr. He was a Chevy guy and I was a Mopar guy. I did the head gsks one last time and the popped again on the first sign of pinging:histeric:
I gave up on Mopars at that point! They didn't use enough head bolts and Chevy's did.

I hope you understand my point.

Now with that said the Northstar uses more head bolts than the LSX :rant2:

Submariner409
07-12-08, 11:51 PM
............Hmmmmmm......The Northstar uses 10 head bolts per bank, geometrically 4 per cylinder, with the center 6 sharing load between 2 cylinders. Which means that the pair of cylinders that fires 90 degrees apart is essentially held together by 2 head bolts.

So you say that the LSX (V-8 ?) uses 8 or less bolts/studs, or < 3 bolts/cylinder ? (What's a LSX ? Lincoln Town Car ???)

Stop talking apples and oranges, throwing up smokescreens, less bullcrap, and get on with tuning engines. If you're going to talk about Northstars, talk about Northstars. If you're going to talk about Ford flatheads, talk about Ford flatheads. If you're going to talk about Devilles, talk about Devilles. If you're going to talk about Fieros with Northstar engines, then..........Get the point ?? Me telling SammyDTS how to tune a boat Olds 455 isn't really germane, is it ?

Your constant changing horses in midstream is laughable. I know you're on a mission, but get focused: Forget the LSX, the LS1, the VDRD2, the C3PO and anything else: This thread is NORTHSTAR RANT, but go to NORTHSTAR TUNING: Anything else is bat crap.

All your charts, diagrams, figures, graphs, guesses are pure eye candy. They mean absolutely nothing to the average CF member looking for tuning or maintenance info, and, from the replies of some of the experienced modifiers and tuners in here, they don't get much from it all, either.

Everybody bugs another member about offering a finished product header installation: when will your PCM work be a "finished product" ???

AJxtcman
07-13-08, 10:30 AM
............Hmmmmmm......The Northstar uses 10 head bolts per bank, geometrically 4 per cylinder, with the center 6 sharing load between 2 cylinders. Which means that the pair of cylinders that fires 90 degrees apart is essentially held together by 2 head bolts.

That is my Point SUB.
Everyone thinks the new SBC aka LSX is the best thing since the old SBC.
You could try one in your boat:histeric:

The old SBC used 17 and we rarely seen a failure that was not caused by major over heating
The new SBC or LSX uses 10. Like I have been saying they are failing!
The Northstar uses 10 11mm bolts and 3 6mm bolts. Yeah they don't do much, but the Northstar has 3 more bolts!

AJxtcman
07-13-08, 10:37 AM
Everybody bugs another member about offering a finished product header installation: when will your PCM work be a "finished product" ???


We need to talk about that!

The Tune is always evolving!

I haven't done too much with my POS Fiero. It just sits.

Ummmmm wait I race Highline a few times and I lost one time. I started in second gear :histeric: I was running the stock 99 PCM

AJxtcman
08-25-10, 09:28 PM
I am on over 30 car related forums. This forum is one of the slowest to load a page.
I am working at a Chevy/Caddy dealer now and the Caddy owner hardly ever fix anything that is broken. They are all to cheap

Submariner409
08-26-10, 03:24 PM
AJ, "Too cheap" and "quick fix" are today's buzzwords.........PM me - I may be headed for Gatlinburg, Tennessee this fall - sub reunion (July schedule fell through). Might make a detour through NC.

RippyPartsDept
08-28-10, 01:04 AM
just wanted to post that my 1999 Deville has 126k miles on it and as far as i know it hasn't had the head gaskets done on it yet. It's been running at 201°F stead in this super hot summer we've had. Highest it's been was 210°F once when I got back in after making a short lunch stop. Dropped back down to 201°F after about 30 seconds of driving.

The car is in perfect shape as far as I can tell. The chrome side moldings have some small circular blemishes that you can only see when you look at them up close. The driver's seat leather is wearing but still super comfy. And the 'service airbag' message comes on at ignition twice a month or so (goes away at next ign cycle always - i usually just turn the car right back off and start it up again). I'm totally loving this car and had a great time reading this gem of a 'rant thread'.

AJ, you ever make it to Wilmington?

Submariner409
08-28-10, 11:24 AM
Rippy, Your "service airbag" message. Open both front doors. With the key OFF, operate the seat controls to their limits and back and fully extend and retract the lap/shoulder belts 3 times. Now turn the key ON and fully extend and retract the lap/shoulder belts again. That may take care of the intermittent message, which is set by the belt retractor circuits.




just wanted to post that my 1999 Deville has 126k miles on it and as far as i know it hasn't had the head gaskets done on it yet. It's been running at 201°F stead in this super hot summer we've had. Highest it's been was 210°F once when I got back in after making a short lunch stop. Dropped back down to 201°F after about 30 seconds of driving.

The car is in perfect shape as far as I can tell. The chrome side moldings have some small circular blemishes that you can only see when you look at them up close. The driver's seat leather is wearing but still super comfy. And the 'service airbag' message comes on at ignition twice a month or so (goes away at next ign cycle always - i usually just turn the car right back off and start it up again). I'm totally loving this car and had a great time reading this gem of a 'rant thread'.

AJ, you ever make it to Wilmington?

drewsdeville
08-28-10, 11:56 AM
You ladies battling it out make this whole thread laughable.

What baffles me is some members determination to prove that there's some alternative to the N* (or any other engine for that matter) that's "better". It's a flippin average production engine that was designed with high volume numbers in mind...therefore many desicions that went into building the northstar were based on economics, just like any other production engine.

Because of this, ANY production engine has it's weaknesses. There are always some. "They should have done this, they should have done that." Blah blah blah. If GM really wanted to make the northstar a $300,000 engine, they could have. They could have added more head bolts, they could have changed castings, they could have built it to make 900hp. They didn't because the Northstar was a high volume production engine just like a Toyota 4 cylinder or a Buick V6 . Some of you put it on a pedestal like it was supposed to be some spectacular marvel of engineering that put it in a different class than a typical production engine. Then you get your panties all in a bunch when you realize that you were wrong and you didn't get a $300,000 engine in a $40,000 car.

If the northstars shortcomings bother you to the point where you can't enjoy ownership, then don't torture yourself by owning one - period. Move on to something "better" and quit your whining because coming here and whining isn't going to get you anywhere.

RippyPartsDept
08-28-10, 12:00 PM
i'm assuming you mean just on the driver's seat, right?

so seat forward all the way, back all the way, up all the way, down all the way then recline down all the way and back up all the way
then pull the belt and lap retractors out all the way three times

i'll give it a shot
thanks

AJxtcman
08-28-10, 04:10 PM
Rippy, That may take care of the intermittent message, which is set by the belt retractor circuits.

The retractor side?
Maybe the pretensioner? That is the pyrotechnic bomb in the buckle side

This site is a joke trying to post on. I type and then 30 seconds later it appears. Same way on my work PC

RippyPartsDept
08-28-10, 04:54 PM
hmmm seems to be fast for me

there's two retractors in my car... one for shoulder, one for lap

RippyPartsDept
08-28-10, 04:55 PM
wait, so you're saying you think it might be the pretensioner in the buckle that's causing the intermittent message?

Submariner409
08-28-10, 05:06 PM
Either seat pretensioner will set an air bag message - mess with both front seats. The pretensioners - the roller jobber-doos that snug up on you - they will set the airbag light.

(Post #86 - Add sign: Please do not feed the trolls)


i'm assuming you mean just on the driver's seat, right?

so seat forward all the way, back all the way, up all the way, down all the way then recline down all the way and back up all the way
then pull the belt and lap retractors out all the way three times

i'll give it a shot
thanks

ryannel2003
08-30-10, 12:53 PM
AJ, "Too cheap" and "quick fix" are today's buzzwords.........PM me - I may be headed for Gatlinburg, Tennessee this fall - sub reunion (July schedule fell through). Might make a detour through NC.

If you're headed through NC make sure and let me know!

RippyPartsDept
08-30-10, 04:13 PM
Sounds like we should get an NC meetup? Who's near the coast?

Submariner409
08-30-10, 06:45 PM
Sounds like we should get an NC meetup? Who's near the coast?

:shhh: You may not be come Thursday or so if EARL takes a little westerly zig......

A get-together in October around Goldsboro/Greenville would be do-able. Waffle House, grits & hush puppies.

RippyPartsDept
08-30-10, 08:47 PM
i trust the models :thumbsup:
http://www.wunderground.com/tropical/tracking/at201007_model.html#a_topad
and
http://www.wunderground.com/tropical/tracking/at201007_ensmodel.html#a_topad
we got waffle house too!

AJxtcman
08-30-10, 11:56 PM
I am in Rock Hill SC. Just south of Charlotte NC

RippyPartsDept
08-31-10, 12:10 AM
i think at meet at the USS NC battleship would be a good place for pics
just imagine your car in the foreground
http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee337/SpeedyHedgehog/USS%20NC/cfiles3481.jpg

AJxtcman
12-16-10, 08:40 PM
I like doin head gaskets on LS1's
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Trucks/2010-10-09115704.jpg

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Trucks/2010-10-09115720.jpg


http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Trucks/2010-10-09115727.jpg

AJxtcman
12-16-10, 08:41 PM
i think at meet at the USS NC battleship would be a good place for pics
just imagine your car in the foreground
http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee337/SpeedyHedgehog/USS%20NC/cfiles3481.jpg

Do you deal with Flow?

RippyPartsDept
12-16-10, 09:07 PM
not really... we sometimes deal with Modern or Leith but only when we have to (and because they have daily trucks to wilmington)

AJxtcman
12-16-10, 09:20 PM
Norm's sells kits for Northstar's and HONDA's for a reason! They blow head gaskets LOL

AJxtcman
12-16-10, 09:25 PM
not really... we sometimes deal with Modern or Leith but only when we have to (and because they have daily trucks to wilmington)

a guy from Flow -- you have to read
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/pcm-diagnostics-tuning/1361088-can-dealer-disable-vats.html

Submariner409
12-16-10, 11:46 PM
Curious thread ^^^ about Flow Chevrolet/Cadillac, Winston-Salem, NC. When GM was discontinuing the old EOS I called them and ordered 3 cases as well as a set of plug boots and a FPR. Rock bottom prices, minimum UPS Ground (from NC to here is literally overnight) and no problems.

RippyPartsDept
12-17-10, 01:46 AM
interesting read...

we don't really tune at all - if a car with a tune came in we wouldn't know it unless they told us and i'm not really sure how the service department would deal with a situation like that... it's all very 'grey area' stuff if from my perspective

i'm not sure if anyone here knows how to tell if a car has been tuned or not... maybe there's a guy or two in the shop that might know how to tell, but the issue just doesn't ever come up

... and as a side note: the VATS is stored in the IPC in the '99 and older cadillacs (as far as i've been told by my techs)

AJxtcman
12-17-10, 08:33 AM
interesting read...

... and as a side note: the VATS is stored in the IPC in the '99 and older cadillacs (as far as i've been told by my techs)

98 Seville have a PK3 Module.
93 to 99 Deville and Eldo's have VATS in the IPC
93 to 97 Sevilles have VATS in the IPC
I am guessing on the 1993 part of that. I know 1996 for sure.

AJxtcman
12-17-10, 08:45 AM
I just wrote a $5900 estimate on a 02 Seville.
No big deal right? No Case Halves or Trans repair
Cadillac owner are really slacking now a days

#1 $900 - Cross over reseal
#2 $343 - Intermediate shaft -- Knocking
#3 $379 - Both Tie Rods -- Both are ready to pop off
#4 $1043 - Both Front Hubs -- Loose and ABS is kicking in for them being so loose
#5 $70 - 4 whl Align
#6 $962 - P/S Rack -- Leaking fluid out both ends
#7 $306 - LH Inner CV Boot -- Leaking CV Grease
#8 $303 - Front Engine mount -- Um its torn
#9 $413 - Both Crank Sensors -- DTC's stored and stalling
#10 $963 - Left Low Beam Out -- Dam HID arch tube and Ballast. Oh it needs a harness for the updated Ballast
#11 $150 -- Diagnostic Charges -- Check HID inop, Check Coolant Leak, Check SES light.

Boy just think if I looked harder

RippyPartsDept
12-17-10, 11:38 AM
98 Seville have a PK3 Module.
93 to 99 Deville and Eldo's have VATS in the IPC
93 to 97 Sevilles have VATS in the IPC
I am guessing on the 1993 part of that. I know 1996 for sure.

yeah i forgot about the pk3 change over in the seville 98-04 body style

AJxtcman
12-17-10, 01:22 PM
These cars are falling a part and the owners don't care. They just run then in to the ground and the poor guy that opick them up used thinks he is getting a Cadillac, but it is a POS that someone neglected.

Submariner409
12-17-10, 07:32 PM
^^^^ truth. If you're picking up a Deville/Seville/Eldorado for a magic price, under the Blue Book for dealer lot retail, there's a very big reason.

The same reason you see used automobiles on a brand name dealer's lot (dealer certified) and the same reason you see the same model for a song on Craigslist or at a local auction (anyone's guess as to what's wrong).

There's a local family that runs a used car lot - Mercedes. The cars LOOK mint. But they're all high mileage, auction (Manheim, PA) cars, or trucked in off eBay. Most of the clientele comes from Washington, DC or Baltimore, MD to pick up a car that's cheap, looks impressive, and may or may not run correctly. The lot has the famous Golden 90 Warranty: "90 seconds or 90 feet, whichever occurs first". Remember the old Golden Corral motto........ "Sell the sizzle, not the steak !"? A coat of wax and a tire dressing and the used car lot guy says "There's an ass for every seat."