: No ECU Derived Horsepower Left On the Table For a Stock-ish LS6?



syd
04-02-08, 06:54 PM
...so it the general conscensus that there is no horsepower left on the table via ECU for a stock-ish LS6 V? I don't think I am going to do headers based on the research I have done (people with ticking, cracking, warping), but I do have a Magnaflow and until I get a Supercharger, or a New V, I need to go faster.

That said...can anyone confirm:
1) Is there any performance left to be had with my short list of mods and an ECU tune?

2) Has anyone else out there with my mods (exhaust, panel filter, flywheel) done a flash for their car and gotten seat of the pants, or 1/4 ET proven results?

thanks!

nikon
04-02-08, 07:14 PM
Well I have the same mods as you...minus the flywheel...but last weekend I gained 6 rwhp from a dyno tune....can I feel a difference, not really...was it worth it...eh, prolly not...shouldda waited till I got headers...

STAGEUP
04-02-08, 07:47 PM
As a local tuner here in AZ, I can tell you there is a good amount of power to be made on a "stockish" LS6. I ran a 12.8@111mph in my LS6 V with the following mods...

UUC flywheel
Magnaflow Catback
Panel K&N filter
160 t-stat
and my tune.

I ran this at Firebird raceway which is 1243 ft above sea level. GM held the LS6 back quite a bit from what I've experianced tuning these LS6s

NormV
04-02-08, 08:27 PM
Couple of videos what you can do with a cone filter and hptuners, sans muffler packing. Michelin Pilot all seasons to boot!

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2004/111998-picked-up-damaged-05-v-less-6.html


Norm

ToyCTSV
04-02-08, 10:05 PM
Isn't the intake good for a lot of HP?

What are solid numbers as far as potential horsepower from a tune?

6hp ... :suspect:

I don't feel like paying anything for 6hp - just me

mbiker97_old
04-02-08, 10:10 PM
I have a typhoon and a custom HPtuner tune. I gained 21/20 with the tune. I had the typhoon on the car when I showed up at the shop. Runs done on a Dynapack.

http://freebmw.net/mbiker97/Pictures/CTS-V/CTS-V%20-%20Dyno%20w%20K%26N%20Typhoon%20and%20HpTuners%20-%20small.jpg

CTSV_510
04-02-08, 10:15 PM
I have a typhoon and a custom HPtuner tune. I gained 21/20 with the tune. I had the typhoon on the car when I showed up at the shop. Runs done on a Dynapack.



:eek: typhoon air intake or intake manifold?

mbiker97_old
04-02-08, 10:23 PM
K&N typhoon air intake.

CTSV_510
04-02-08, 10:36 PM
K&N typhoon air intake.

next question...where do I get that tune?

NormV
04-02-08, 10:48 PM
next question...where do I get that tune?

There is a nice 12.8 AF tune on hptuners website. Just need a few $$$ for the software. :). Owner said he gained about 20/20.


Norm

Naf
04-03-08, 02:24 AM
Just a small note from experience...

I did the tune by mail and it got me 16 a/f and a bad response from engine...

I had a 80/90 FAST intake (long story)
Shorty headers
JBA catless mid pipes
Corsa Catback
Morosso wires
LPE air intake
Custom MAF Pipe
Bosch Plugs
MSD coils

I barely broke 320hp and 320lbft with 16 A/F

I did a dyno tune right after gettin these numbers and got 340hp and 350lbft with a comfy 13.0 A/F

Get a proper tune and if you still feel the urge to get a little more power get a FAST 78 and a BBK 80mm throttle body...Then go to a machine shop and port the rear endof the tb to match the FAST inlet...

Stock our 75mm TB are actually 72mm on the rear side, the bbk 80mm is actually 75mm on the rear side...

Upgrade your wires to PROPER racing ones Morosso are pure plug and play on the 05...I am runnin a set right now and no issues. Plus they come pre-sleeved for extra protection...

The flywheel helps the revs a little throughout the power band. Additionally the LS7 assembly doesnt have that ridiculas rubber support in it like out stock ones.

If you still need to make more power, swap out the heads...I am waitin on a couple of parts before i change mine out...

In a nutshell you have to think of our Stock engines as a "restrictive straw" By Opennin the air passage ways in and out you "free up Horsepower and Torque" allowin the engine to run more effeciantly, or go Faster then before...

Think of every possible restriction and open it up...

benelliwang
04-03-08, 02:39 AM
I have HP Tuner and Wideband O2 and did the tune myself. Pull the MAF and did a nice speed density tune on the VE table. The put the MAF back on dailed in the MAF. On WOT tune the A/F was off on my car, about 11.8:1 so I leaned it out to 12.8:1 just to be safe since I get the shitty Kalifornia 91 oct gas here. The timing was bumped to 28 degress at WOT without any signs of knock. I could of tuned it to a knife edge but decided that safety margin was more important to me. Didn't really dyno'ed the car though to find out what power it makes.... I am guessing maybe 8 to 15 rwhp... I also added the semi lean burn at cruising and very aggressive DCFO to gain maybe 2 mpg.

syd
04-03-08, 09:49 AM
so basically, I should invest in a tuner and tune it myself? What is DCFO? The idea of more MPG sounds great :)

JMBCTSV
04-03-08, 10:04 AM
I have HP Tuners and WBO2 also (for race car tuning mainly), and did it myself. My car is 100% stock and will remain that way forever.

DFCO = Decel fuel cutoff. Very nice if you can drive it the right way to get the best out of it. My cal has all the features benelliwang mentioned although my spark is still more conservative and I didn't tune SD or MAF since my car is stock and I'm not smarter than GM.

I get 23.0 MPG AVG, very little highway driving at all (15% maybe), really helps in city a TON!

lollygagger8
04-03-08, 10:26 AM
What about Stealth V's tune?? It's showing gains of 17HP. Is this not accurate? For $400, that's the most HP per $$ I've seen. I have the B&B exhaust w/ xpipe and Lingenfelter CAI...should I just save and buy headers or go with the tune? One or the other I should get 15hp...correct?

The Tony Show
04-03-08, 10:37 AM
. On WOT tune the A/F was off on my car, about 11.8:1 so I leaned it out to 12.8:1 just to be safe since I get the shitty Kalifornia 91 oct gas here.

I assume you typed that backwards and meant you richened it from 12.8:1 to 11.8:1, right? 12.8:1 is more parts Air to Fuel, and leaner than 11.8:1.

benelliwang
04-03-08, 01:08 PM
I assume you typed that backwards and meant you richened it from 12.8:1 to 11.8:1, right? 12.8:1 is more parts Air to Fuel, and leaner than 11.8:1.

No my original post was correct, I leaned it out from 11.8:1 to 12.8:1 but I should have added the following:
I did not lean it out further to 13.0:1 just to gain a few more ponies. I kept it at 12.8 just to be safe.

I am also not smarter then GM. But GM has to have a tune for all 50 states and then some. I, on the other hand, can tune my car just for my region and get a little gain out of it. I am often do two tunes for my cars, one for the 120 degrees summer and one for the freezing winter to gain the power, drivability, and fuel economy out of the cars.

mbiker97_old
04-03-08, 04:06 PM
We didn't screw with the dcfo. I may have to go get that done. That won't change the standard map will it?

< I know tuning, but not the specifics of the LSx stuff.

NormV
04-03-08, 04:26 PM
Imagine what adding an intake or other air flow mods does to the stock tuned 11 AFR?

Norm


I assume you typed that backwards and meant you richened it from 12.8:1 to 11.8:1, right? 12.8:1 is more parts Air to Fuel, and leaner than 11.8:1.

The Tony Show
04-03-08, 04:36 PM
Imagine what adding an intake or other air flow mods does to the stock tuned 11 AFR?

Norm

Probably not much since the front 02 sensors would signal to add more fuel. I missed the point of his first post since the wording made it sound like he thought going from 11:1 to 12:1 was richening the mix. His clarification cleared that up.

StealthV
04-03-08, 05:27 PM
We didn't screw with the dcfo. I may have to go get that done. That won't change the standard map will it?

< I know tuning, but not the specifics of the LSx stuff.

DFCO won't affect anything but when you left off the gas pedal and the throttle is closed. If the tweaks aren't right it will negatively affect driveability.

StealthV
04-03-08, 05:35 PM
Probably not much since the front 02 sensors would signal to add more fuel.

At WOT, the PCM goes into open loop. In this mode the front O2 sensors do nothing to affect the fuel ratio.

:kari:

The Tony Show
04-03-08, 05:49 PM
I know, I was just pointing out that during closed loop the front 02 sensors would not allow simply adding intake air to cause a lean condition.

Gordy Petrovski
04-03-08, 09:50 PM
21st Century Muscle Cars got 20hp on a stock car with just a tune.

ToyCTSV
04-03-08, 10:06 PM
20 hp is sounding a lot better than 6hp - I'm surprised GM left 20hp on the table

Rick let's talk... is 20hp realistic? On your tunes do you edit the DCFO for MPG?

Next question - this will definitely void the warranty won't it?

benelliwang
04-03-08, 10:13 PM
At WOT, the PCM goes into open loop. In this mode the front O2 sensors do nothing to affect the fuel ratio.

:kari:

Quoted for truth.

Also, I tuned my VE then Maf tables first, then PE so by then I got the rich WOT a/f ratio. A stock tune will not have 11.8:1 ratio.

The Tony Show
04-03-08, 10:20 PM
20 hp is sounding a lot better than 6hp - I'm surprised GM left 20hp on the table

Next question - this will definitely void the warranty won't it?

Manufacturers always leave power on the table for multiple reasons, the main one being a margin of safety so they're not replacing engines every time an idiot puts crappy gas in his car, idles in traffic and heat soaks the piss out of the engine and then does a bunch of WOT runs to redline. For the person willing to always use good gas an monitor their Oil temps, a tune can unlock a lot of the power left out of the stock tune.

As far as warranty, a tune will only get noticed if you give them a reason to go looking for it. A lot of people have spare PCMs with a stock tune that they swap in for service visits.

ToyCTSV
04-03-08, 10:26 PM
Thanks for the info, much appreciated :thumbsup:

SixSpeedDeath
09-09-08, 02:18 AM
I found a lot of REALLY good info on tuning my LS6 in a book you can get from your Catillac parts dept. Called "How to build High-Performance Chevy LS1/LS6 V-8's" it goes into enough detail as to tell you why you will hurt performance by removing the strainer on the MAF on an intake with a 90 degree bend in the inlet pipe without re-calibration. It has a LOT of good info and is a must read for anyone tuning their LS6. I'm personally going to rebuild the internal rotating assembly and buying LQ9 heads so I can supercharge :eyebrow:

CadiBlk
09-09-08, 03:50 PM
I found a lot of REALLY good info on tuning my LS6 in a book you can get from your Catillac parts dept. Called "How to build High-Performance Chevy LS1/LS6 V-8's" it goes into enough detail as to tell you why you will hurt performance by removing the strainer on the MAF on an intake with a 90 degree bend in the inlet pipe without re-calibration. It has a LOT of good info and is a must read for anyone tuning their LS6. I'm personally going to rebuild the internal rotating assembly and buying LQ9 heads so I can supercharge :eyebrow:

I am interested in the 90 degree bend on the inlet pipe w/o re-calibration. Please elaborate as I am installing my homemade FFV tube this evening.

Ditto on the information in this thread being useful. Makes me want to invest in one of those Roadrunner PCM's where you can edit on the fly, so I can hire a co-pilot and optimize my setup all the time.

Bueller
09-09-08, 04:40 PM
He means don't take out the screen in you Mass Air sensor if you have the essential bend in your intake tube. What you are doing is fine on your intake. Just leave the screen in.

CadiBlk
09-09-08, 09:12 PM
Thanks Bueller. While i was attempting to put my tube in (hump hose was too fat), I had about 5 pieces of plastic stuck to my MAF screen. So to gain 5ish% (maybe) of flow by removing the screen, i now know it isn't worth it.