: for under 8k would anybody buy a NS Caddy?



lenny lincoln
03-31-08, 01:41 AM
I have been a buyer of luxury cars both caddy and lincoln for 20yrs. lately its been lincoln. I have been reading caddy forums after buying a winter beater 93 deville and loving it up to my specs. I have been seeing cheaper newer devilles than lincolns and seening that most try to advertise new seals or head gaskets with some newer type of head bolts. In my findings the North star is crap beyond the warrenty period and shouldnt be bought w/o the exceptant many kick in the groin 2k repair bill. Anybody eles feel the same?

urbanski
03-31-08, 07:28 AM
:food-snacking:

dkozloski
03-31-08, 09:37 AM
I have been a buyer of luxury cars both caddy and lincoln for 20yrs. lately its been lincoln. I have been reading caddy forums after buying a winter beater 93 deville and loving it up to my specs. I have been seeing cheaper newer devilles than lincolns and seening that most try to advertise new seals or head gaskets with some newer type of head bolts. In my findings the North star is crap beyond the warrenty period and shouldnt be bought w/o the exceptant many kick in the groin 2k repair bill. Anybody eles feel the same?
Don't buy a Northstar under any conditions. You wouldn't be happy.

Submariner409
03-31-08, 09:45 AM
lenny, A Northstar-powered car is not for you. Mechanical nightmare, expensive, leaky, oil burning and slow. Your car is a late "soap bar" shaped Lincoln Town Car, white with a tan fabric roof.

Mark C
03-31-08, 12:30 PM
I've bought two, a 1000 dollar 97 STS and a 500 dollar 2000 Deville. Of course I have the ability to fix them myself, and have, otherwise they would be in a scrap yard by now. The STS is my daily driver, and the Deville will be my wifes once its registered in a couple of weeks. I would never take either car to a dealer to be repaired if i owned them from new and they needed a 3000 dollar engine job at this point in their life, but for the price i got them at, I'll keep them and drive them until so other major disaster befalls them.

eldorado1
03-31-08, 01:44 PM
500! nice!! Did someone hand them a $7000 headgasket bill or something? I mean that's a nice ROI.

Ranger
03-31-08, 02:45 PM
:Poke:

Ur7x
03-31-08, 03:03 PM
As they say... This thread makes as much sense as spinach.

So if the Caddy is worth more then $8,000 you would consider it... but as soon as it gets to $7,999 its worth nothing in your eyes?

Lets go with your POV that every single head gasket will fail (which we know is not the case)... Would you rather spend $10,000 and then have a $3000 repair bill or $7000 and have a $3000 repair bill....

Option 1 the car cost you $13,000
Oprion 2 the car cost you $10,000

I will take option 2 every day of the week...

With logic like yours, let me guess, you work for the federal government.

CadillacSTS42005
03-31-08, 03:21 PM
I have been seeing cheaper newer devilles than lincolns and seening that most try to advertise new seals or head gaskets with some newer type of head bolts. In my findings the North star is crap beyond the warrenty period and shouldnt be bought w/o the exceptant many kick in the groin 2k repair bill. Anybody eles feel the same?

Oh and the Intec was a marvel of the modern world...
lets see
4.6 Intech 260 HP
4.6 N* 275 or 300 HP
and thats JUST a starting point.... the Intec is no more immune to HG failure than a N*

N* worlds easier to work on only expensive if your stupid enough to go to the dealer and say hi I bought a Cadillac please rape me...


if thats your opinion on this car please stick to Lincoln...

lenny lincoln
03-31-08, 05:32 PM
OK , lets speak the truth. who here hasnt had a oil leaking NS or a head gasket blown in one? please included your year and your current mileage. Prove it to me that I am wrong and that these major issuses are just isolated events. I am looking to hear from the 90-150k crowd. Not the new car owners. What I meant by the 8k figure is once the cars value reaches the depreication figure of 8k its junk . YOu might as well park it out back and make a planter box out of it.

hueterm
03-31-08, 05:39 PM
The post doesn't make any sense because all he wants to do is :stirpot:

Ur7x
03-31-08, 05:45 PM
2002 STS driven HARD daily.

90,000 miles
No oil leaks
Original Head gasket

I know of four others that I have worked on a 1996, 1998, 2000 and a 2001
all with over 100,000 the 1998 drips a little oil the other are fine.. All on original head gaskets.. the 1998 and 2001 also driven like they were just stolen. The 1996's CD player is broken right now...

I also know of two 1997's that have needed headgasket work... One at 40,000 miles while still under the factory warranty. When the gasket went it was worth WAY more then $8000.

Headgasket failure and car value are NOT related imo

If I were shopping for a Northstar car I probably would avoid 1999 and older ones...

But the 2000 and newer cars seem to be holding up well.. lots of really nice 2000 STS are out there for <<$8000...

codewize
03-31-08, 06:05 PM
First of all lets just say you have, ohh say an 01 with 90k on it. Reasonable, right. And the car is awesome and in otherwise exceptional shape. Is it not worth a $2000 repair to make it right?

I personally don't understand why people think the way they do about repairs. I just put $1500 worth of front end work into my 89 STS and I'd do it again in a second.

For $1500 I have another car to drive, which BTW is very dependable. Is that not worth the money? I don't understand people at all. A car is NOT an investment it's a liability so unless the car really isn't worth the repair cost and you have so much extra cash to buy a new one then yes $1500 one time was much better than $700 a month for the next 3 years.

Just the fact that you have the word Lincoln in your name I don't think you're ready to own a N* powered vehicle.

They're not junk at all they just require a little more care than other engines, as do all hi performance engines. They're actually the opposite of junk and are a world class engine now in production for over 15 years.

darien99
03-31-08, 06:41 PM
My STS was $2600. 155,000 miles. 13.7 in the 1/4 after some tweaks. Headgaskets are original and do not leak.

CadillacSTS42005
03-31-08, 08:41 PM
Me
1998 Seville STS 112k
1997 ETC went 100K before HG failure which the dealer covered half of since they replaced the engine before due to them failing to tighten an oil cooler line
1996 Deville (sold at 145k)
1993 ETC (sold at 112k)

CadillacSTS42005
03-31-08, 08:43 PM
My STS was $2600. 155,000 miles. 13.7 in the 1/4 after some tweaks. Headgaskets are original and do not leak.

was one of those tweaks NOS?
no way no how your pulling 13 sec 1/4s
my ETCs about the most modified NA VIN 9 and its only pulling 14.2

BigDaddy63
03-31-08, 08:51 PM
So, should I sell the '02 DTS I just bought with 45,000 miles on it Lenny? KBB retail is about $15-$16k and I bought it for much less than that. I'm trying to understand your logic. If I bought it for $8k I'm an idiot? IMO, I can drive this car for a couple of years and then most likely sell it for about the same price as I paid for it. I am a little nervous reading all of these threads about head gaskets and other common problems, but in my experience 90% of the problems with a car has to due with maintenance. Seeing how my DTS only has 45k miles on it, I may look at buying an extended service contract just in case. Any opinions?

For the record, I have owned Fords all my life. I've owned and raced several Mustangs, 2 Lincolns, a 65 Galaxy, and an Exploder. If I could have bought a 4 door Mustang, I would have. That being said, as a diehard blue-oval man, there is no comparison between this Caddy and any Ford I've owned or driven in for luxury, quality, finish, and craftsmanship.

Tell me Lenny, how much would you pay for this. Fully loaded 02 DTS. Every option except sunroof. 45,000 miles. Factory maintained. New tires. Comfort package. 17" chrome wheels, Pearl paint. Not a scratch.

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll119/BigDaddy1963/IMAG0035.jpg

Ranger
03-31-08, 09:13 PM
Sold my '97 2 years ago with 107K. Original head gaskets and dry as death valley.

Submariner409
03-31-08, 09:29 PM
lennylincoln..........Well, only 45,450. No leaks. No coolant. Uses NO oil. CKP's at about 25,000. Warranty on both. Don't anticipate any problems. Great car.

The running total of ALL persons in this site who have had problems with a Northstar engine/transmission setup (in the year group you describe)represent such an infinitesimally small percentage of the total product delivery as to be statistically insignificant.

I am in no way belittling the fact that when your car has significant problems you feel shat upon. You then have two choices: fix it or unload it. Most of the members here choose to fix it.

Haunt another Forum, domestic or foreign. Cadillac is not alone in weird problems and solutions. If you want the perfect car, get a ??? skateboard ??? .

If I, or another CFmember says "Aw, yeah, get one" and it craps out on you next week, what do you think ??? Better to say "Forget it" and not have to put up with whining when the plugs need changing.

Mountie
03-31-08, 09:48 PM
Lenny, Lenny......

I have a '93 STS with 150,000 miles and it hauls ass!! It has a little oil leak, just like my friend's 2006 BMW. He said, "Sh*t this car is fast!" ..... His car cost him over $70,000. I work on my car, my self. Just changed the oil today....other than that, I check the tires for air & fuel it every couple weeks @ 26 mpg.

By the way. Me & my co-workers are entering a 1969 Lincoln Continental MarkIII in our Demolition Derby this July at the Orange County Fair here in So Cal. This puppy is stock with a 375HP 390ci. We're killing the secondaries. Too much HP.

Our team name: ' Can't afford a Chevy'.

Fun stuff.

dkozloski
04-01-08, 12:13 AM
Lincoln hasn't built a car that could get out of its own smoke since The Mexican Road Race days in the early fifties. The only way that a Lincoln can stay within sight of a Caddy is to hitch it to the back end with a tow rope. Ask the man in the street to name the American luxury car and 90% will say Cadillac. Lincoln has never brought the prestige to the table that Cadillac has enjoyed for 100 years. At best, Lincoln has been regarded by the public as the first runner-up. Lincoln afficianados can quote specs and voice opinions but at the end of the day they sound much like a parent trying to brag up a son who just got out of jail.

darien99
04-01-08, 12:04 PM
was one of those tweaks NOS?
no way no how your pulling 13 sec 1/4s
my ETCs about the most modified NA VIN 9 and its only pulling 14.2

How much does it weigh?

Yes N/A. Near perfect weather conditions. About 500 feet above sea level. 60' time was 2.2
This car ran 14.66 stock on 18's.

Raze
04-01-08, 12:26 PM
Lincoln hasn't built a car that could get out of its own smoke since The Mexican Road Race days in the early fifties. The only way that a Lincoln can stay within sight of a Caddy is to hitch it to the back end with a tow rope. Ask the man in the street to name the American luxury car and 90% will say Cadillac. Lincoln has never brought the prestige to the table that Cadillac has enjoyed for 100 years. At best, Lincoln has been regarded by the public as the first runner-up. Lincoln afficianados can quote specs and voice opinions but at the end of the day they sound much like a parent trying to brag up a son who just got out of jail.

The LS can move, so can the Mark VIIIs...

I have a 98 ETC, lifted the front head at 95k, leaks oil like a seive however I recently found that the oil leak is from the oil return on the oil cooler in the radiator, the return line uses a plastic clip to lock the hose into the fitting instead of a flared metal hose fitting like the input line, well my clip was missing one of the clips since it's 10 years old and been heat cycled who knows how many times and the line had started to back out, and finally blew out while on the highway oiling my serpentine and tossing the belt, the experience was not fun. After buttoning it back up it barely leaks at all, honestly the oil leaks usually start with the valvecover gaskets and oil pan seal. The VCGs are easy to replace, and as long as your cooler lines are tight you really shouldn't leak much if any oil.

That being said, I'd stick with a RWD car with a longitudinally mounted engine, much easier to work on, I don't care what anyone says about a N* being easy to work on they're full of $h1t straight up or they haven't spent enough time under their hood doing real repairs. I will admit N*s are relativley simple once you remove the 5 things in your way to get to the problem area buy by comparison to every RWD car or truck I've worked on with the exception of my buddies BMW 540i, the N* powered FWD caddies are not far easier due to the fact that there's usually no room and to do the repair requires multiple 'tear down' steps to actually get to the job...

Don't get me wrong I love my caddy, and enjoy working on it, but the god's honest truth is that if I had it to do all over again I would have bought the Mark VIII I was looking at. Wasn't as nice fit and finish and didn't have the nuts or the ride the caddy had (sports supsension) but it would have been much easier to get my hands in and around it to work on it...

tateos
04-01-08, 02:11 PM
I own a '97 ETC and a '05 Lincoln LS. The LS is a good car, but it only seems like a really nice Ford or Mercury to me. The ETC has 100K+ more miles on it than the LS, but I far prefer the ETC in most ways. To me, there is no comparison between my Cadillac and my Lincoln. I don't know - maybe it would be more fair to compare the LS to the previous generation CTS?

darien99
04-01-08, 03:36 PM
oh and what's done to the etc/what year is it? Makes a big diff if you're racing a 4200 lb car or a 3800 lb car

lenny lincoln
04-01-08, 11:49 PM
I originally posted this question on the 4.9 board. I didnt expect to be thrown to the lions. But after reading all the other post especially the sticky on head failure, I still believe the NS is junk. Nobody here has changed my mind. Why buy a 8k caddy only to risk the pain of having to fix head gasket leaks at the tune of 3k. I would feel uneasy taking my family 100 miles from home in a 80k caddy for fear of break down. Yes, by the name I sign on with, I do own a 2002 lincoln town car along with a 93 deville with 133k. My wife loves the front well drive handling of the SD in the winter but would rather drive the lincoln when the weather is fair. The Sd is like a billy goat in snow compared to the TC. I wanted to up grade her to a newer full size, front wheel drive, luxury car for the winter. We came across the SD by accident and a willing to help a family member in need of $$. We didnt need another car but the family member needed $$ so we offered more than what it was worth. I will not drop 20k+ for a deprecating vechicle. I pay cash for my vechicles and I think cars that are taken care of should easily go 160k without major break downs on an average. A 40k new,ten year old car should be worth 8k and still run and last like you spent 40k on a car. All my TC that I have bought over the years have never left me stranded with a 3k repair bill . They have never left me stranded. Just too show you an example of the average problems a TC owner has, here is some links to some busy forums. NOTICE THE STICKYS. hint: nobody is complaining of 3k+ repair bills.

http://http://www.lincolnsonline.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=261

[URL="http://http://www.lincolnforums.com/forums/index.php?showforum=13"]

racinrod67
04-02-08, 02:26 AM
Lenny, it sounds like you had your mind made up before your first post was submitted. I just wanted to state the facts of my 96 STS: I bought it 6 years ago with 60K on it and have put 80+K on it without any major problems. I have had to replace normal parts and pieces on it but never a 3K repair. My car runs and drives superb, doesn't smoke or leak any oil. I would not hesitate to take it on a road trip, which I recently did - 1400 miles round trip and never gave it a second thought. This is my first Cadillac and will not be my last! You can't beat the ride and comfort, plus the N* has plenty of power!!!:thumbsup:

eldorado1
04-02-08, 10:12 AM
NOTICE THE STICKYS. hint: nobody is complaining of 3k+ repair bills.

What? That they catch on fire? (http://www.lincolnsonline.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53154)

bwahahahaha....:lildevil:

AJxtcman
04-02-08, 10:22 AM
I work on Cars for a living! I just hate working on F.O.R.D.'s :histeric:
They run backwards. Yeah the crank spins counterclockwise. They flip the rear end upside down compared to everyone else. That is how they work. Backwards. :histeric:
I have owned 2 and that was enough!

Submariner409
04-02-08, 11:03 AM
AJ.........I notice that you hate working on F.O.R.D. Does that mean "Found On Road, Dead" or "First On Race Day" ??

KeithB
04-02-08, 11:20 AM
I bought my 93 STS from the original owner in 1997, when the car had 96,000 miles. The N* in that car was still spinning the tires when I traded it in 12/2007. It had 208,000 miles and never leaked, smoked, or drank any oil. Never a head gasket failure. (I realize I was one of the fortunate N* owners!) I hated saying good bye to that car, because it still got 25-27 MPG on the highway, and kicked some serious ass.

dkozloski
04-02-08, 01:11 PM
AJ.........I notice that you hate working on F.O.R.D. Does that mean "Found On Road, Dead" or "First On Race Day" ??
F****d Over Rebuilt Dodge.

AJxtcman
04-02-08, 02:09 PM
I worked on at a Mopar dealer or five in my life. They have left handed (backwards) lug nuts on some cars, but they are no where near as close to running backaswards as a F.O.R.D.
They are not nice cars. I am not a fan of Mopars at all, but they are one up on a F.O.R.D.

In my opinion F.O.R.D. made the best designed performance big block, but it was a limited production engine. The 427 was just built to pound out Horse Power. You couldn't even get a Hydraulic cam in them (they did not have a oil passage to the lifters). They even made a SOHC version. That was the one and only glory thing about F.O.R.D. Oh Shelby played with them also, but he didn't want to GM turned him down. Anyone ever heard of a V8 in a 73 Mustang?:want: Yeah you couldn't get one! Junk Junk Junk Junk Junk :thumbsup:

AJxtcman
04-02-08, 02:18 PM
Do you know why they like them Down Under?
They run better. See with the crank turn counterclockwise being on the other side of the equator allows them to run better:suspect:

Hey I can go on and on, but I think you all know how I feel about them.

Oh wait one more story.
Back in 1990 when I was working at a machine shop. I was putting a stroker FE crank in storage. We were putting it in the attic. I think it was a 509 crank. Anyway this big heavy crank ripped through the end of the box. I had handed the box to the guy on the top of the ladder. The crank came down on my Toe:mad2: I have always worn Steel toe boots, but it was clean up day and it was the only time and the last time I wore shoes to work! Big toe is still messed up, but I still have it.

dwight.j.carter
04-02-08, 02:43 PM
All I can say Lenny is go drive one then come back here and tell us you don't like it. To me my car will be worth fixing when it happens. At this point my car runs perfect needle right in the middle and no oil leaks. If you don't like driving it you are either to old to enjoy it or your the jerk going slow in the left lane so those of us that do drive it like it was meant to be driven can't get by :)

darien99
04-02-08, 03:28 PM
Every 3rd Lincoln I see smokes

dwight.j.carter
04-02-08, 03:47 PM
and they are uglier than sin ! :yup:

codewize
04-02-08, 06:16 PM
Every third Ford I see smokes. And those little Chrysler products too. They all frigign smoke.



Every 3rd Lincoln I see smokes

darien99
04-02-08, 06:56 PM
Every third Ford I see smokes. And those little Chrysler products too. They all frigign smoke.
That's just the mitsubishi engines chrysler used. Mostly the 3.0 V6. Bad seal design.

AMGoff
04-07-08, 05:00 PM
Oh come on people.... Mr. Lincoln is a troll... nothing more, nothing less, and one who seems endowed with more bias than straight-up common sense. I mean... anyone who comes to a Cadillac forum and registers a username of "Lenny Lincoln" is only looking to :stirpot:

The fact remains... it's easier to remain blinded by hypocrisy than it is to open one's eyes. There's no possible way that he was honestly looking to have his mind changed because he refuses to listen.

I hate to break it to you Mr. Lincoln... but all cars have their problems, Lincoln's are no exception and if you say otherwise - you're a liar. If the average repair cost on a Lincoln is cheaper than a Cadillac... then there's VERY GOOD REASON... you know why? That's because:

A.) They're a dinosaur that rides on a platform which is 30(!) years old now, and..
B.) They're nothing but a superficially gussied-up, glorified Ford.

So... if we apply the basic law of syllogism to this situation in that:

Lincolns are only Fords with shiny bits and higher price tags; Fords and their parts commonplace and cheap; therefore Lincolns and their parts are commonplace and cheap, as would be repairs to such.

A Lincoln is nothing more than a premium Ford... there's nothing special, nor exotic about them and the only thing that makes possibly makes them unique is their complete and utter lack of uniqueness.

The Ford modular V8??? Does your mind honestly make any kind of comparison between that and the Northstar... or even to any GM V8 for that matter? It's nothing more than a giant heap of pig-iron... and how on earth do they manage to "squeeze" such a small amount of power out of such a large displacement? Moreover... why on earth would one want a truck engine in their "luxury" car? It may have not been originally in there, but the fact remains it wound up in the F150... So how could one possibly compare that to an engine that was purpose built to compete in the luxury market? I'm not even that big of a fan of OHC design... but if you're going to do it, why would you only give it a single cam and 16 valves like the one in your Town Car... what's the point?

And it's not like the modular doesn't have it's own, more than fair share of problems my friend.... The last time I checked, there was never a class-action lawsuit against Cadillac/GM over the Northstar. Hmmm... did you know about that, or would you just rather ignore that as well? In '96, Ford began installing defective intake manifolds on the 2-valve 4.6's... and the continued using them on vehicles manufactured through '01 (up to some '02 MY vehicles) and they did this despite knowing full well there were some serious problems with it... Yes, the Northstar has some problems... problems caused largely from poor and improper maintenance... but NOTHING quite like Ford installing defective manifolds which had this uncanny tendency to crack at the front of the crossover which would then leak coolant and subsequently cause overheating and/or catastrophic engine failure. Then they were kind enough to offer a recall on fleet vehicles... but gave a big "up yours" to the average customer which led them being taken to court because they refused to do the right thing.

And then you have the nerve to balk about depreciation?? Do you know what depreciates as much, if not more than a Cadillac?

That's right... a Lincoln. Let's take a look at two top of the line cars - a 2002 Lincoln Town Car Cartier L and a 2002 Cadillac Deville DTS, both were compared with similar options and the same mileage - 72,000 (12K/year)...

The price, when new for the Town Car was $49,235 and the Deville was $47,880...

Kelly Blue Book puts both at $17K... for the Town Car, that's a depreciation of 65.5% over 6 years and the Deville at 64.5% of the same time.

NADA again, surprisingly gives them the same value - $14K each... so that's 71.6% lost on the Town Car and 70.8% on the Deville.

However... Edmunds (which I've always found to be the most accurate reflection of actual market values), lists the Town Car at $12,950 and the Deville at $14,600. SO... that's a depreciation of 73.7% on the TC and only 69.6%.

So even though the depreciation on Cadillacs really is sad... that makes the rate of loss on Lincolns absolutely pathetic.... AND I don't even think that was the most proper of comparisons since the Town Car is supposed to be Lincoln's top of the line flagship model... technically speaking, the Seville was Cadillac's top of the line flagship... if I had done that it would have made the contrast stand out all the more.

The purpose of you post was never to actually gather information or to actually learn anything... all it was meant to do was to ruffle some feathers... you had no intention of being talked into buying a new Cadillac. You came to your conclusion from 'everything [you] read" on the forums about the Northstar.... Well... HELLO??? Obviously a site meant to help research and fix problems on a car will have a high number of posts containing problems about that car... it's one of the biggest points of the forum. What about that don't you realize??? It's like that on any and every forum for any and every car.... and like Jim (submariner) pointed out.... any of the problems reported on this site represent a very small number compared to the amount actually shipped.... most people who come to this site do so originally because the have a problem, plain and simple.

Unfortunately for you... I have way too much time on my hands currently and can take the time to point out all the errors of you logic and ways... I'm not saying this to be mean... but a Northstar Cadillac is obviously not for you... not because they're bad engines or cars - because they're not in the least bit.... but because you seem totally incapable of appreciating them for what they are, and that is a world-class engine built into fine, much above average automobiles... not some big, gas-guzzling dinosaur riding on a platform that was put into production during the Carter administration.

Even if you had shown some propensity to read... it would be very easy to find out that if you're honestly looking for a newer, bigger Deville, but find the Northstar to be so appalling... Cadillac actually did make the bigger, newer body style Deville with the 4.9 in the base models from '94 to '95 or '96, if I recall... So there, all of your problems have been solved.

urbanski
04-07-08, 06:09 PM
you said syllogism

AMGoff
04-07-08, 07:05 PM
you said syllogism

lol... I did indeed... is that the word of the day?

urbanski
04-07-08, 07:22 PM
is now

Submariner409
04-07-08, 07:43 PM
Damn, Adam..........If I had to type #40 over again I'd wind up with a CTS (Carpal Tunnel Syndrome). (Or is that what you get from working on one......?)

I~LUV~Caddys8792
04-07-08, 07:45 PM
I just had a syllogasm at the thought of that word.

urbanski
04-07-08, 07:53 PM
this thread is syllogastic:shlick:

I~LUV~Caddys8792
04-07-08, 07:53 PM
Oh come on people.... Mr. Lincoln is a troll... nothing more, nothing less, and one who seems endowed with more bias than straight-up common sense. I mean... anyone who comes to a Cadillac forum and registers a username of "Lenny Lincoln" is only looking to :stirpot:

The fact remains... it's easier to remain blinded by hypocrisy than it is to open one's eyes. There's no possible way that he was honestly looking to have his mind changed because he refuses to listen.

I hate to break it to you Mr. Lincoln... but all cars have their problems, Lincoln's are no exception and if you say otherwise - you're a liar. If the average repair cost on a Lincoln is cheaper than a Cadillac... then there's VERY GOOD REASON... you know why? That's because:

A.) They're a dinosaur that rides on a platform which is 30(!) years old now, and..
B.) They're nothing but a superficially gussied-up, glorified Ford.

So... if we apply the basic law of syllogism to this situation in that:

Lincolns are only Fords with shiny bits and higher price tags; Fords and their parts commonplace and cheap; therefore Lincolns and their parts are commonplace and cheap, as would be repairs to such.

A Lincoln is nothing more than a premium Ford... there's nothing special, nor exotic about them and the only thing that makes possibly makes them unique is their complete and utter lack of uniqueness.

The Ford modular V8??? Does your mind honestly make any kind of comparison between that and the Northstar... or even to any GM V8 for that matter? It's nothing more than a giant heap of pig-iron... and how on earth do they manage to "squeeze" such a small amount of power out of such a large displacement? Moreover... why on earth would one want a truck engine in their "luxury" car? It may have not been originally in there, but the fact remains it wound up in the F150... So how could one possibly compare that to an engine that was purpose built to compete in the luxury market? I'm not even that big of a fan of OHC design... but if you're going to do it, why would you only give it a single cam and 16 valves like the one in your Town Car... what's the point?

And it's not like the modular doesn't have it's own, more than fair share of problems my friend.... The last time I checked, there was never a class-action lawsuit against Cadillac/GM over the Northstar. Hmmm... did you know about that, or would you just rather ignore that as well? In '96, Ford began installing defective intake manifolds on the 2-valve 4.6's... and the continued using them on vehicles manufactured through '01 (up to some '02 MY vehicles) and they did this despite knowing full well there were some serious problems with it... Yes, the Northstar has some problems... problems caused largely from poor and improper maintenance... but NOTHING quite like Ford installing defective manifolds which had this uncanny tendency to crack at the front of the crossover which would then leak coolant and subsequently cause overheating and/or catastrophic engine failure. Then they were kind enough to offer a recall on fleet vehicles... but gave a big "up yours" to the average customer which led them being taken to court because they refused to do the right thing.

And then you have the nerve to balk about depreciation?? Do you know what depreciates as much, if not more than a Cadillac?

That's right... a Lincoln. Let's take a look at two top of the line cars - a 2002 Lincoln Town Car Cartier L and a 2002 Cadillac Deville DTS, both were compared with similar options and the same mileage - 72,000 (12K/year)...

The price, when new for the Town Car was $49,235 and the Deville was $47,880...

Kelly Blue Book puts both at $17K... for the Town Car, that's a depreciation of 65.5% over 6 years and the Deville at 64.5% of the same time.

NADA again, surprisingly gives them the same value - $14K each... so that's 71.6% lost on the Town Car and 70.8% on the Deville.

However... Edmunds (which I've always found to be the most accurate reflection of actual market values), lists the Town Car at $12,950 and the Deville at $14,600. SO... that's a depreciation of 73.7% on the TC and only 69.6%.

So even though the depreciation on Cadillacs really is sad... that makes the rate of loss on Lincolns absolutely pathetic.... AND I don't even think that was the most proper of comparisons since the Town Car is supposed to be Lincoln's top of the line flagship model... technically speaking, the Seville was Cadillac's top of the line flagship... if I had done that it would have made the contrast stand out all the more.

The purpose of you post was never to actually gather information or to actually learn anything... all it was meant to do was to ruffle some feathers... you had no intention of being talked into buying a new Cadillac. You came to your conclusion from 'everything [you] read" on the forums about the Northstar.... Well... HELLO??? Obviously a site meant to help research and fix problems on a car will have a high number of posts containing problems about that car... it's one of the biggest points of the forum. What about that don't you realize??? It's like that on any and every forum for any and every car.... and like Jim (submariner) pointed out.... any of the problems reported on this site represent a very small number compared to the amount actually shipped.... most people who come to this site do so originally because the have a problem, plain and simple.

Unfortunately for you... I have way too much time on my hands currently and can take the time to point out all the errors of you logic and ways... I'm not saying this to be mean... but a Northstar Cadillac is obviously not for you... not because they're bad engines or cars - because they're not in the least bit.... but because you seem totally incapable of appreciating them for what they are, and that is a world-class engine built into fine, much above average automobiles... not some big, gas-guzzling dinosaur riding on a platform that was put into production during the Carter administration.

Even if you had shown some propensity to read... it would be very easy to find out that if you're honestly looking for a newer, bigger Deville, but find the Northstar to be so appalling... Cadillac actually did make the bigger, newer body style Deville with the 4.9 in the base models from '94 to '95 or '96, if I recall... So there, all of your problems have been solved.


And Goff has taken the ball...uh......uh...he shoots....he scores!

CadillacSTS42005
04-07-08, 08:14 PM
How much does it weigh?

Yes N/A. Near perfect weather conditions. About 500 feet above sea level. 60' time was 2.2
This car ran 14.66 stock on 18's.

less than your STS i can say that much....
theres no way your car is running that fast
sorry no way no how....
the ESC on the board with a 100 shot of NOS is pulling a 13.9
my ETC has all your mods and them some including a JET prototype chip, my custom built cat back exhaust system etc etc etc...
till i see a dyno or a time slip to prove me wrong i stand by my statement
and if next you state you got your times by using anything that mounts to your dash, youve only further proven my case as they are notoriously wrong....

CadillacSTS42005
04-07-08, 08:17 PM
Oh come on people.... Mr. Lincoln is a troll... nothing more, nothing less, and one who seems endowed with more bias than straight-up common sense. I mean... anyone who comes to a Cadillac forum and registers a username of "Lenny Lincoln" is only looking to :stirpot:

The fact remains... it's easier to remain blinded by hypocrisy than it is to open one's eyes. There's no possible way that he was honestly looking to have his mind changed because he refuses to listen.

I hate to break it to you Mr. Lincoln... but all cars have their problems, Lincoln's are no exception and if you say otherwise - you're a liar. If the average repair cost on a Lincoln is cheaper than a Cadillac... then there's VERY GOOD REASON... you know why? That's because:

A.) They're a dinosaur that rides on a platform which is 30(!) years old now, and..
B.) They're nothing but a superficially gussied-up, glorified Ford.

So... if we apply the basic law of syllogism to this situation in that:

Lincolns are only Fords with shiny bits and higher price tags; Fords and their parts commonplace and cheap; therefore Lincolns and their parts are commonplace and cheap, as would be repairs to such.

A Lincoln is nothing more than a premium Ford... there's nothing special, nor exotic about them and the only thing that makes possibly makes them unique is their complete and utter lack of uniqueness.

The Ford modular V8??? Does your mind honestly make any kind of comparison between that and the Northstar... or even to any GM V8 for that matter? It's nothing more than a giant heap of pig-iron... and how on earth do they manage to "squeeze" such a small amount of power out of such a large displacement? Moreover... why on earth would one want a truck engine in their "luxury" car? It may have not been originally in there, but the fact remains it wound up in the F150... So how could one possibly compare that to an engine that was purpose built to compete in the luxury market? I'm not even that big of a fan of OHC design... but if you're going to do it, why would you only give it a single cam and 16 valves like the one in your Town Car... what's the point?

And it's not like the modular doesn't have it's own, more than fair share of problems my friend.... The last time I checked, there was never a class-action lawsuit against Cadillac/GM over the Northstar. Hmmm... did you know about that, or would you just rather ignore that as well? In '96, Ford began installing defective intake manifolds on the 2-valve 4.6's... and the continued using them on vehicles manufactured through '01 (up to some '02 MY vehicles) and they did this despite knowing full well there were some serious problems with it... Yes, the Northstar has some problems... problems caused largely from poor and improper maintenance... but NOTHING quite like Ford installing defective manifolds which had this uncanny tendency to crack at the front of the crossover which would then leak coolant and subsequently cause overheating and/or catastrophic engine failure. Then they were kind enough to offer a recall on fleet vehicles... but gave a big "up yours" to the average customer which led them being taken to court because they refused to do the right thing.

And then you have the nerve to balk about depreciation?? Do you know what depreciates as much, if not more than a Cadillac?

That's right... a Lincoln. Let's take a look at two top of the line cars - a 2002 Lincoln Town Car Cartier L and a 2002 Cadillac Deville DTS, both were compared with similar options and the same mileage - 72,000 (12K/year)...

The price, when new for the Town Car was $49,235 and the Deville was $47,880...

Kelly Blue Book puts both at $17K... for the Town Car, that's a depreciation of 65.5% over 6 years and the Deville at 64.5% of the same time.

NADA again, surprisingly gives them the same value - $14K each... so that's 71.6% lost on the Town Car and 70.8% on the Deville.

However... Edmunds (which I've always found to be the most accurate reflection of actual market values), lists the Town Car at $12,950 and the Deville at $14,600. SO... that's a depreciation of 73.7% on the TC and only 69.6%.

So even though the depreciation on Cadillacs really is sad... that makes the rate of loss on Lincolns absolutely pathetic.... AND I don't even think that was the most proper of comparisons since the Town Car is supposed to be Lincoln's top of the line flagship model... technically speaking, the Seville was Cadillac's top of the line flagship... if I had done that it would have made the contrast stand out all the more.

The purpose of you post was never to actually gather information or to actually learn anything... all it was meant to do was to ruffle some feathers... you had no intention of being talked into buying a new Cadillac. You came to your conclusion from 'everything [you] read" on the forums about the Northstar.... Well... HELLO??? Obviously a site meant to help research and fix problems on a car will have a high number of posts containing problems about that car... it's one of the biggest points of the forum. What about that don't you realize??? It's like that on any and every forum for any and every car.... and like Jim (submariner) pointed out.... any of the problems reported on this site represent a very small number compared to the amount actually shipped.... most people who come to this site do so originally because the have a problem, plain and simple.

Unfortunately for you... I have way too much time on my hands currently and can take the time to point out all the errors of you logic and ways... I'm not saying this to be mean... but a Northstar Cadillac is obviously not for you... not because they're bad engines or cars - because they're not in the least bit.... but because you seem totally incapable of appreciating them for what they are, and that is a world-class engine built into fine, much above average automobiles... not some big, gas-guzzling dinosaur riding on a platform that was put into production during the Carter administration.

Even if you had shown some propensity to read... it would be very easy to find out that if you're honestly looking for a newer, bigger Deville, but find the Northstar to be so appalling... Cadillac actually did make the bigger, newer body style Deville with the 4.9 in the base models from '94 to '95 or '96, if I recall... So there, all of your problems have been solved.

DAAAAMMMMMNNNNN.......

mumblypeg
04-07-08, 09:07 PM
OK , lets speak the truth. who here hasnt had a oil leaking NS or a head gasket blown in one? please included your year and your current mileage. Prove it to me that I am wrong and that these major issuses are just isolated events. I am looking to hear from the 90-150k crowd. Not the new car owners. What I meant by the 8k figure is once the cars value reaches the depreication figure of 8k its junk . YOu might as well park it out back and make a planter box out of it.

I guess everything is relative. I bought my 73k mile '97 Eldorado for 8k in 2004, one owner and well maintained by the local dealer. Here is what I did, though most people with money to burn wouldn't waste the effort on a "junk" car:

1. Carfax report

2. Pulled the dealer records of warranty work done.

3. Used a Snap-On freon leak detector to ensure the a/c system was leak free.

4. Used a Matco scan tool to check for pending trouble codes, and compared the live data stream to the specifications given in the FSM.

5. Used a special tool to check for hdyrocarbons(blown headgasket) in the coolant.

6. Had a bodyshop inspect for prior collision damage.

In the last four years, the car has needed only normal wear and tear repairs, such as tires, battery, belts, fuel filter, fluids, and ect. The interior and exterior are in near showroom condition since I have it detailed by a pro twice a year.

Let me make it clear, no oil leaks and no hg issues on this car, and I have the documentation back to day one.

hueterm
04-07-08, 09:27 PM
I wonder if he will be back, after "amgoffus magnus, opus 41"?

Raze
04-07-08, 09:46 PM
First I am not agreeing w/Lincoln dude, but I just gotta throw in my last .02 on some of what's been said,

I know there has never been a class action against GM on the N*s but it is highly suspect that they first lengthened the head bolts, and then changed the thread pitch. To say that there is 'nothing wrong' except negligence or neglect on the part of the owner just isn't accurate. When AJ posts pictures of drilled out main head bolt holes whose blocks have turned to powder, there is definatley a manufacturing problem with the aluminum, not neglect or abuse...

darien99
04-07-08, 09:48 PM
less than your STS i can say that much....
theres no way your car is running that fast
sorry no way no how....
the ESC on the board with a 100 shot of NOS is pulling a 13.9
my ETC has all your mods and them some including a JET prototype chip, my custom built cat back exhaust system etc etc etc...
till i see a dyno or a time slip to prove me wrong i stand by my statement
and if next you state you got your times by using anything that mounts to your dash, youve only further proven my case as they are notoriously wrong....
How in the hell would you know your car is lighter than mine? Have any idea what a '95 seville weighs? Any fricken clue what your's weighs? I've been racing all sorts of cars for almost ten years. 100 shot on a 15 second boat sounds just about right to run a 13.9. I already posted my slip on the other post you called me out on. Quit crying because I'm not a checkbook racer like yourself. You don't even have a clue what all has been done to my car. Here's a hint, most of the modifications were fabricated myself. Also, Lapeer Raceway doesn't attatch to my dashboard. This is the same track where I ran 13.44@104.5 in a 2.0L neon. If you want to meet at this track this summer and race for $1000, I'm all for it. Bring your checkbook.

CadillacSTS42005
04-07-08, 10:44 PM
rofl
your messing with the wrong person if you wanna argue knowledge of the Northstar and the fact that the stock gross weight is listed for every year make and model as regulated by the GOVERNMENT...

and would you like a cookie you took a light weight POS and made it run a 13 sec 1/4, and guess what you drove home in that same pos neon....

as i said im not looking for a fight and it seems you just escalated it to that level, post a slip or a video or any sort of proof..... as i yet you have provided NONE....

and i dont have to write checks my mouth cant cash, i have my proof its called the laws of physics and aerodynamics...
wheres yours?

CadillacSTS42005
04-07-08, 10:50 PM
1995 Seville STS, 300 hp, 3950 lbs

1997 Eldorado ETC, 300 hp, 3801 lbs

and thats straight from Cadillac.
so unless you riced out your STS by ripping every piece of interior from the car (wow way to be ruin a nice lux car by stripping it like you would a Honda) im gonna say your cars heavier than mine....

oh and this is an actual video of my car
no fluff
no outrageous claims that i cant back
just simple proof

oeLrQpKw1as

if your as knowledgeable as you claim to be youll see that at 1 sec in im powerbrakeing and then take off going 0-70 in under 6 seconds
stock 0-60 is 6.7

with that i will be the bigger person here and say i have provided proof, and many of the members here know where i stand and how much i know about these cars and the Northstar system so to argue with you is petty and really childish
post your proof please and stop acting like a child yourself

lbwd
04-07-08, 11:46 PM
OK , lets speak the truth. who here hasnt had a oil leaking NS or a head gasket blown in one?

1996 STS, 167k miles, just got a leak (due to the aftermarket cat converter). :)


100 shot on a 15 second boat sounds just about right to run a 13.9. I already posted my slip on the other post you called me out on.

Stock 1995 STS running 13.7 quarter mile? I don't believe that. Sounds like BS - on top of that, there are no mods and the only "custom fabricated" mod is a turbo that was done once. No proof of these mods and posting a 13.7 1/4 mile time with no timeslip as evidence won't get you anywhere. The best I have seen (STS) is a 14.6 1/4 mile. Besides, the only "mods" I have seen tend to ruin any performance. Which track is this? I'd like to run my 13.7 there... in my mom's Taurus. This info isn't valid. :helpless:

Destroyer
04-08-08, 08:48 AM
Oh and the Intec was a marvel of the modern world...
lets see
4.6 Intech 260 HP
4.6 N* 275 or 300 HP
and thats JUST a starting point.... the Intec is no more immune to HG failure than a N*

N* worlds easier to work on only expensive if your stupid enough to go to the dealer and say hi I bought a Cadillac please rape me...


if thats your opinion on this car please stick to Lincoln...The Intech in the Mark VIII has 280hp and the LSC has 290hp. They are NOT anywhere near as prone to blow a head gasket. The Intech is also very highly and easily modifiable, 500hp+++ is easily attainable. Not sure where you are getting your info from but its wrong.

AMGoff
04-08-08, 11:49 AM
The Intech in the Mark VIII has 280hp and the LSC has 290hp. They are NOT anywhere near as prone to blow a head gasket. The Intech is also very highly and easily modifiable, 500hp+++ is easily attainable. Not sure where you are getting your info from but its wrong.

In all fairness... 260 was the most Ford ever squeezed out of the single-cammer 16v 4.6L. The 4.6 used in the Mark VIII was the dual-cam, 32v version... which then begs the question, why only 290 in the "hot-rod" version...?

darien99
04-08-08, 12:23 PM
1995 Seville STS, 300 hp, 3950 lbs

1997 Eldorado ETC, 300 hp, 3801 lbs

and thats straight from Cadillac.
so unless you riced out your STS by ripping every piece of interior from the car (wow way to be ruin a nice lux car by stripping it like you would a Honda) im gonna say your cars heavier than mine....

oh and this is an actual video of my car
no fluff
no outrageous claims that i cant back
just simple proof

oeLrQpKw1as

if your as knowledgeable as you claim to be youll see that at 1 sec in im powerbrakeing and then take off going 0-70 in under 6 seconds
stock 0-60 is 6.7

with that i will be the bigger person here and say i have provided proof, and many of the members here know where i stand and how much i know about these cars and the Northstar system so to argue with you is petty and really childish
post your proof please and stop acting like a child yourself

You're a ****ing tool. I'm done here. I came here to learn more about modifying the northstar, and all I seem to find is this crap. I was ready to explain in depth all the info and tweaks that I've done to the suspension (notice the 2.2 60's?-you probably don't know what that means anyway), sensor tweaks, and other misc. you're sure the hell not getting out of me now. 14.66 stock isn't hard to believe, this is with the traction control off, something CAR&DRIVER does not do, hence they ran a 14.8 at their altitude/weather. I also ran 14.8 stock with my trac control on. There's many more informative sites out there with people that ran the same times or better in a '95. Calling someone's car a POS is childish. I stopped doing that when I was 15. 'Nuff said there.

If YOU knew anything about racing you wouldn't be timing your car stop watch style to 60. That tells us about jack shit. So I'll leave you alone here in your pretend dream world where you think you have "THE FASTEST VIN 9 CADDY", I'll go on continuing custom modifications and sensor tweaks to get every last pony out of the car. It was great sharing info with the rest of you.

FWIW-

My car is not stock weight, but its not a tin can either. You don't notice what is missing. I wouldn't do that to a Caddy.

My car does not have stock rubber, nor the stock size rubber

My car does not have the stock air intake

My car does not have a couple other quips that slow it down.

This car does not have stock sensor readings in a couple areas.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
04-08-08, 12:29 PM
Wow, this thread isn't locked yet? I guess it's my turn.

urbanski
04-08-08, 12:42 PM
it was just getting good

I~LUV~Caddys8792
04-08-08, 12:59 PM
In all fairness... 260 was the most Ford ever squeezed out of the single-cammer 16v 4.6L. The 4.6 used in the Mark VIII was the dual-cam, 32v version... which then begs the question, why only 290 in the "hot-rod" version...?

Correct, 260 was the most HP Ford ever squeezed out of the SOHC 4.6, but the 4.6L used in the 95+ Continental was the DOHC version, shared with the Mark VIII, but the transverse mounting needed for the FWD Connie restricted the intake and exhaust, cutting the HP down 20. Then in either 1998 or 1999, Lincoln redesigned the intake/exhaust somehow and got an additional 15 hp out of it, matching the LD8 Northstar.